Can we really trust anyone else?

[jamestl2]

How is it possible to really place our hopes and dreams in someone else's hands? How can we take what other's say at there word?

For example, in my latest post:
9 Reasons You Should Never Fall in Love

I raise some points that it's virtually impossible for me to trust anyone of the opposite sex. Maybe I'm being a tad paranoid, but even if others never really intend to cause harm, it still happens.

[sheffy4]

Your post sounds like a bitter rant that you typed out after finding out that a girl you liked didn't like you back, and/or she had a boyfriend at the time as well.

It sounds more like you can't trust yourself. It's not the other person's fault if you don't like what they like, or if you feel suicidal after breaking up.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by sheffy4

Your post sounds like a bitter rant that you typed out after finding out that a girl you liked didn't like you back, and/or she had a boyfriend at the time as well.

lol, it was actually a long time ago:
How to Fall out of Love (or never in love so quickly)

Originally Posted by sheffy4

It sounds more like you can't trust yourself. It's not the other person's fault if you don't like what they like, or if you feel suicidal after breaking up.

What do you mean by "you can't trust yourself", was there something I specifically did wrong? And I wasn't "feeling suicidal" or anything like that.

I didn't really feel like I was *blaming anyone*, just giving my viewpoint on the topic.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

How is it possible to really place our hopes and dreams in someone else's hands? How can we take what other's say at there word?

For example, in my latest post:
9 Reasons You Should Never Fall in Love

I raise some points that it's virtually impossible for me to trust anyone of the opposite sex. Maybe I'm being a tad paranoid, but even if others never really intend to cause harm, it still happens.

Well, maybe you're not paranoid, but it does sound like you have lots of irrational fears. That is to say, your fears are not authentic fear, like a bear is chasing you, but projected fear of what might or might not happen in the future. And they seem to be mortal fears -- as if you were going to die if any of them were to happen. In fact, your fear has taken you over to the point where you are absolutely convinced that one or more of them will come true. By holding onto and focusing on your fears, in fact you are more or less sentencing yourself to that outcome.

The truth is, even if all of them happen, it won't kill you. What you described
does happen sometimes, that's for sure. People lie, they break promises, they don't do what you want them to do when you want them to do it. Not just in romance, jamestl2 -- all of that happens all over life. And mastering it all is part of the fun of the game! Being the person you are inspired to be, regardless of the actions, thoughts, and feelings of others -- that's what has you being in love with your own life. Relationships of all kinds, including the mess and the heartbreak, are abundant gifts to you in developing the skill to be the person you are inspired to be. Without relationships, you'd be SOL.

So my question is: why NOT trust people; why NOT fall in love in every moment? The risk of pain is an infinitesimal price to pay for being vital, free, connected, joyful, and madly in love with my life.

[jamestl2]

Hmmmm.. good food for thought, Angela

Maybe I'm just more along the lines of asking myself questions like, "Why try if this is what my end result will always be?" or "Like this is really going to happen to me"

And my inexperience is probably contributing to it as well. I have nothing to compare it to.

Originally Posted by Angela

So my question is: why NOT trust people; why NOT fall in love in every moment? The risk of pain is an infinitesimal price to pay for being vital, free, connected, joyful, and madly in love with my life.

Let me say too, I definitely did NOT enjoy feeling that pain, so maybe I'm just expecting the same thing to happen again.

[Brutha]

Let me say too, I definitely did NOT enjoy feeling that pain, so maybe I'm just expecting the same thing to happen again.

In the end it's is not about feeling pain or not feeling pain but about growth.

Regardless of how you life you life you will feel pain from time to time. It shows you that you are alive.

[Angela]

Yeah, I get what you're saying. It looks to you like it's a sure thing -- if you fall in love, one or more of those terrible things will happen, and you'll suffer.

I would like to point out that all that is is a thought in your head. It's worth examining, don't you think? If you approach romantic love with the question in mind: "why bother, cuz I'm just going to end up suffering" -- you can see what you are creating there, I think. Just like in any other area of your life. Romantic love doesn't have to equal suffering, I promise you from a somewhat more experienced point of view. And also: the suffering that sometimes occurs in romantic love does not have to be something you must avoid in order to be in love with your life. I mean: going through the pain of romantic love can help you learn what you need to learn, and you can end up being grateful for it, and living it can help you see that suffering is unnecessary. (it's hard to learn that last lesson if you never have suffered!)

Most of all: the rewards you reap when you courageously and willfully love someone are tremendous, and you don't know what they are until you do it. D'oh!

[sheffy4]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

What do you mean by "you can't trust yourself", was there something I specifically did wrong? And I wasn't "feeling suicidal" or anything like that.

Well, a couple of your arguments made me think that you were afraid to trust yourself when it comes to a girl you like. For instance, "premature attachment is unhealthy" makes me think that you are afraid you can't trust yourself to hold back until you think the water is safe. You may not trust yourself to fall in love with the "right" girl.
Also, with "A New Measuring Stick is created," you seem afraid to trust your own senses. And I hope this reassures you, I don't compare all the guys I meet to my first boyfriend from high school. I thought I was going to marry him and everything; we dated for almost 2 years, and now I hardly ever think of him, and when I do, it's not in a bitter or regretful sense. Of course, it's been 5 years since we broke up, so I've had lots of time to move on and meet other guys.
Moving on, with "You’ll retain complete control of your life", I got the impression that you don't trust yourself to be assertive about what you want and need in your life when you are in a relationship. Maybe you are afraid that once you get a girlfriend, you have to change everything and give up all the things in your life that she does not enjoy. This is not true, and if a girl ever makes you feel that way, then she is too controlling and you should stay away.
"She’s probably already seeing someone else"-- You don't think you are a good enough boyfriend to satisfy all her needs? This is by far the most paranoid comment you make. I have never cheated on anybody, and I've had 2 main relationships lasting about 2 years each, and I'm in one now that is about to hit the 2 year mark.
"Thinking about an Unrequited Crush all the time can lead you into a Depression" --Do you not trust yourself to handle the emotions that come with a possible break up? Sure, a break up can lead to depression, but does it always? No.

I understand that you had a bad experience and are trying to learn from it and protect yourself, but if you shield yourself too much, you will miss out on wonderful experiences as well, and they are out there.

[Rockchick26]

Yeah its not good to be pessimistic about this sort of thing,but you have to look at it realistically. MOST relationships do not work out! And MOST people have this happen to them,unless they marry their high school sweetheart and stay married til they die,but how often does that happen? So its not only common for love to end in pain,but its 99% likely!

[sheffy4]

Rockchick has a point. Most relationships don't "work out." But this is no reason not to enjoy a relationship while you are in it, or to avoid one all together.
In the end, every life ends with death. Does this mean that we choose not to live because our life will end anyway?

[Angela]

I disagree! ALL relationships work out. Sometimes it works out that you part after a month, and sometimes it works out that you die at the same time after 75 years together. Sometimes it works out that you let her go with love, and sometimes it works out that you carry a grudge against him till you're dead. Sometimes it works out like it's working out with me and Danger Man, and sometimes it works out like it did with Rockchick and her Rockstar, and sometimes it works out the way it has for Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. Sometimes you learn something important about your life, and sometimes you carry old pain over into the next relationship.

One way or another, it all works out!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

but you have to look at it realistically.

Sorry, whose reality are you looking at?

MOST relationships do not work out! And MOST people have this happen to them

"Most people" does not matter. "On average" does not matter. "Usually" does not matter. You are not a number. You are not here to confirm, conform or contribute to the statistics in other people's realities. If you were a perfectly average human being on this planet, you would be a 32-year-old Chinese man living in East Asia and your surname is Tan.

Your reality is whatever you choose it to be.

If you believe that falling in love is a stupid thing, then you will look at your own life, and those of your friends, relatives, neighbours and colleagues .....

... and you will find plenty of evidence that falling in love is a stupid thing.

If you choose to believe that falling in love is a wonderful thing, then you will look at your own life, and those of your friends, relatives, neighbours and colleagues,

..... and you will find plenty of evidence that falling in love is a wonderful thing.

All ...... up ..... to ....... you!

[RT Wolf]

^ In case you're not into IM, look up confirmation bias or information-seeking bias. Both are well-documented biases which state that human beings, will seek information to confirm their currently held beliefs and not necessarily information that disconfirms it.

As an example, when asked for an opinion on a controversial topic, people of two groups both said that 2/3rds of the majority of people would agree with them. That adds upto more than a 100%.

[cylon]

As men we grow up surrounded by certain messages that aren't necessarily helpful. One is the concept of "soulmate", the idea that a girl is going to come along, kiss it, and make it all better. And in order to get that "soulmate", you have to supplicate, prove yourself to the woman, etc. Nature does not work this way and if you have a broken heart you most likely did it backwards. Her job is to prove herself to you (and let's hope you're a great guy who actually deserves a chick to prove herself to you) and to earn your affection. That is what turns a woman on, the challenge of trying to influence you. The more difficult it is for them to control you, the more they want you.

When you grow up treating women, as if you were a woman yourself, it becomes very frustrating that the woman is not attracted. After all, you were doing what the sitcoms and love songs told you to do. Oops. Women are attracted to men. Not boys acting like women.

Takes some readjusting. Give yourself the time to be bitter against women for a short time, it's necessary. But at a certain point, meaning when the "victim mentality" goes away, you should have a healthier perspective on this whole thing.

You can trust women, to be women. Fickle, controlled by their emotions, not really the same person from day to day. While that is frustrating at times it's also the very thing that attracts us to them. It's the polarity between man and woman. Male: strong, rational, mature. Woman: more emotional, child-like, intuitive.

We both have our strengths and weaknesses. We are different for a reason. Learn to make peace with that, let reality be what it is, then become a real man who doesn't let others control how he feels about himself. Then the chicks won't leave you alone.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

You can trust women, to be women. Fickle, controlled by their emotions, not really the same person from day to day. While that is frustrating at times it's also the very thing that attracts us to them. It's the polarity between man and woman. Male: strong, rational, mature. Woman: more emotional, child-like, intuitive.

Cylon, I'm surprised you, of all people, are perpetuating that old line of crap -- "women are this, men are that, and that's that." I think these generalizations are every bit as 'harmful' as the notion that there's a soulmate out there who will kiss it and make it all better.

My attraction to Danger Man, by the way, is not about my ability to influence him. It's about his commitment to living a life he loves, regardless of anyone else's thoughts or actions, including mine! We both have all of the qualities you listed, and if anything, I think he has more of what you call "woman" qualities and vice versa. But you know, in a relationship, that all ebbs and flows!

[Dan.Linehan]

James, have you seen a movie called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? I'd check it out if you get a chance.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Cylon, I'm surprised you, of all people, are perpetuating that old line of crap -- "women are this, men are that, and that's that." I think these generalizations are every bit as 'harmful' as the notion that there's a soulmate out there who will kiss it and make it all better.

My attraction to Danger Man, by the way, is not about my ability to influence him. It's about his commitment to living a life he loves, regardless of anyone else's thoughts or actions, including mine! We both have all of the qualities you listed, and if anything, I think he has more of what you call "woman" qualities and vice versa. But you know, in a relationship, that all ebbs and flows!

I knew you'd reply.

I just don't see it as crap. Men and women are DIFFERENT. We have different needs and we go about getting our needs met in different ways. In the animal kingdom, males and females are different. There are defined roles that you are "born into". It's not crap it's nature (although there is crap in nature). I'm not talking about sexism here so get that out of your mind.

Glad things are going well with you and Danger Man. What you describe of him, is how I perceive a real man acts. And I'm sure you are just as high of character for you both to have attracted to each other, but (not to point out the obvious) you are both DIFFERENT at the same time.

Men and women have different qualities and characteristics, they are not just physical.
We are physically attracted but also attracted to the characteristics each sex has, that are different from our own.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

I knew you'd reply. .

--- I was just waiting to see what Aspiring, Rose, and NotesMaeve would say when they get a load of you!

I agree that there is an element of polarity in romantic attraction, just not that it corresponds to specific traits that belong to women or men. I believe that the same type of polarity you're talking about (minus the specific "men=x, women=y" thing) occurs in homosexual relationships, too. Now that I think about it, maybe it's not "polarity" so much as "fit." Like the yin/yang symbol is ostensibly about polarity -- that doesn't quite capture it for me. Our qualities and strenghts flow and change throughout our lives, and the most remarkable thing I find about attraction is what I also like about that yin/yang circle -- that there's an attraction of the mutable, the eternal, the comfortable, and the exciting. The Fit.

[cylon]

Well we're both human. And even in homosexual relationships there's usually the butch and the femme. Otherwise we'd be like unisex.

I think as humans we all have the same basic "stuff" but since sex is basically the reason for existing in the first place, we go about getting that stuff differently, on a deeper, fundamental level. It's all about survival and keeping the species going. So, guys that act like girls are less likely to reproduce with girls, just as girls who act like guys are less likely to reproduce with men.

As far as the other girls, they haven't agreed with me before so why start now (except when it comes to the non-sex stuff, we all tend to agree on those matters more or less because we all have highly developed, almost genius like minds).

We're still different. I hope the OP gets something from it. Embrace the differences so you can work with them, not wish they were something else.

[Angela]

It's the polarity between man and woman. Male: strong, rational, mature. Woman: more emotional, child-like, intuitive.

When you say that men are strong, rational, and mature, and women are different from men, it follows that you are saying that women are neither strong, rational, nor mature (or at least less so than men). You can see how that sounds like a sexist statement, right? Those are not "roles" that people are born into -- they are ways of being that either sex can take on as a matter of choice; one sex does not have more a propensity towards them than the other. (with the exception, arguably, of physical strength.)

When sexist beliefs are adopted as The Truth, I think, that's when it's easy to rationalize things like paying women less for the same work, or for men to feel stopped in trusting their intuition, or for a person to feel inadequate or pressured because they're not acting like a real (wo)man.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by cylon

One is the concept of "soulmate", the idea that a girl is going to come along, kiss it, and make it all better.

Your belief.

I thought mothers kiss and make things better, but that's my belief.

And in order to get that "soulmate", you have to supplicate, prove yourself to the woman, etc. Nature does not work this way and if you have a broken heart you most likely did it backwards. Her job is to prove herself to you (and let's hope you're a great guy who actually deserves a chick to prove herself to you) and to earn your affection. That is what turns a woman on, the challenge of trying to influence you. The more difficult it is for them to control you, the more they want you.

Your beliefs.

When you grow up treating women, as if you were a woman yourself, it becomes very frustrating that the woman is not attracted. After all, you were doing what the sitcoms and love songs told you to do. Oops. Women are attracted to men. Not boys acting like women.

More beliefs.

You can trust women, to be women. Fickle, controlled by their emotions, not really the same person from day to day. While that is frustrating at times it's also the very thing that attracts us to them. It's the polarity between man and woman. Male: strong, rational, mature. Woman: more emotional, child-like, intuitive.

Here again your beliefs.

I've met some men who are mature, but it would be debatable to say that all men are mature, just like it would be to say all women are fickle, emotional, child-like and intuitive. But, I guess it all comes down to what you believe and what you believe is what you get.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Embrace the differences so you can work with them, not wish they were something else.

I agree, and also recommend being open to the idea that the differences between you and the women you'd like to attract may not conform to someone else's idea of what a man is and what a woman is.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

When you say that men are strong, rational, and mature, and women are different from men, it follows that you are saying that women are neither strong, rational, nor mature (or at least less so than men). You can see how that sounds like a sexist statement, right?

Yes I see how you could perceive it that way, but that's not my intention. Women are more child-like and irrational then men. More guided by their feelings. Women tend to have a tough exterior but there can be insecurities underneath. Women seek security, safety, protection from their man. When a man is a weak wvuss, he turns her off, because he's not playing his part. Likewise, when a woman is dominating and masculine, it can be a turn off to a man, because she's not playing her part.

Originally Posted by Angela

Those are not "roles" that people are born into -- they are ways of being that either sex can take on as a matter of choice; one sex does not have more a propensity towards them than the other. (with the exception, arguably, of physical strength.)

I disagree. When you're born with your "parts" you're born with the hormonal tendencies that go along with those parts, and you will act different than the other sex. Man naturally more direct, "hunter", woman more naturally passive and receptive "nurturer". This broad category is what I mean by "polarity".

Originally Posted by Angela

When sexist beliefs are adopted as The Truth, I think, that's when it's easy to rationalize things like paying women less for the same work, or for men to feel stopped in trusting their intuition, or for a person to feel inadequate or pressured because they're not acting like a real (wo)man.

Again, I'm not a sexist. You need to really think about if what I'm saying means that one sex is "better" than the other. You may think I'm ascribing certain attributes to men that women don't have, this is true, but women kick-ass.

I am saying that men and women are both unique, and should be celebrated for their differences. I don't think one is above or below the other. We fit together, we both need each other.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by dancer

I've met some men who are mature, but it would be debatable to say that all men are mature, just like it would be to say all women are fickle, emotional, child-like and intuitive. But, I guess it all comes down to what you believe and what you believe is what you get.

100% agree with you sexy dancer.

I agree with Angela a bit in the sense that we do grow into our roles, but there needs to be something to grow. That is your essential feminine/masculine nature. It needs to be developed to have a happy life.

Re-read my first post. I was saying that men act like WOMEN when it comes to relationships, and there is no attraction maintained. That is NOT mature. It is boy-mentality.

I'm not saying that women can't be mature, but it does mean something different between the two. Both sexes can be immature. But women are more likely, as a whole, to act "immature", but there is nothing wrong with that. It's why they turn guys on and we look at you as the mysterious seductive creatures that you are.

Edit--again, I agree this is a male perspective. My point here was not to get into a debate (which is fun) but to do some man to man stuff. I could have dressed it up for the female viewers but that's no fun.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

How is it possible to really place our hopes and dreams in someone else's hands?

Therein lies the rub: placing your hopes and dreams in other people's hands is giving them an awful lot of responsibility, don't you think?

I'm going to ignore the debate over biological determinism and who's more controlled by their hormones than who, because that first statement of yours really leaped out at me. Nobody else has responsibility for your happiness, whether you're in a relationship with them or not, and asking somebody else to be responsible for it is unfair. Perhaps if you reframe what you think should happen in a relationship, whether it's about handing over all of that to somebody else to be devastated when they don't provide, or whether it's about growing together sharing hopes and dreams.

I've begun to notice that what we do with relationships is walk in with an outcome in mind. A relationship is successful if he or she is everything we imagined and it lasts "forever". We expect the other person to provide us with something: a sense of being loved, secure, adored, whatever it happens to be, and when they don't do that, we feel that they've failed us somehow. I'm currently in the process of rejigging how I see relationships, moving from a mindset where the partner provides something to sharing life in something and growing together rather than leaning on each other as though we're missing something only the other can provide. Does that make sense?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

But women are more likely, as a whole, to act "immature", but there is nothing wrong with that.

"not that there's anything wrong with that!"

Cylon, this belief of yours that you tout as The Truth about women (and men), that's what I say is crap -- it's bigoted and insulting. Also, as Dancer pointed out, it's what you're likely to encounter in the people you meet, since you'll attract "evidence" of your conviction.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

"not that there's anything wrong with that!"

Cylon, this belief of yours that you tout as The Truth about women (and men), that's what I say is crap -- it's bigoted and insulting. Also, as Dancer pointed out, it's what you're likely to encounter in the people you meet, since you'll attract "evidence" of your conviction.

Well, take out the word immature then, it's not getting us anywhere. You're taking it as a negative, so maybe I'm not clarifying what I'm saying very well.

Where "immature" was, put "more guided by emotions as opposed to reason".

And men are more guided by reason than by their emotions (strong silent type).

We can't have it both ways, be men and women and be the EXACT same way, with the same amounts of this or that.

[cylon]

I'm actually surprised you're getting so upset over this. If you want to think I'm a bigot and everything, that's your choice. I'm the same dude who's always been talking to you, and you've seen my posts about men/women before. This is no different than anything else you've seen me post about this particular topic.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by cylon

100% agree with you sexy dancer.

I agree with Angela a bit in the sense that we do grow into our roles, but there needs to be something to grow. That is your essential feminine/masculine nature. It needs to be developed to have a happy life.

Re-read my first post. I was saying that men act like WOMEN when it comes to relationships, and there is no attraction maintained. That is NOT mature. It is boy-mentality.

I'm not saying that women can't be mature, but it does mean something different between the two. Both sexes can be immature. But women are more likely, as a whole, to act "immature", but there is nothing wrong with that. It's why they turn guys on and we look at you as the mysterious seductive creatures that you are.

Edit--again, I agree this is a male perspective. My point here was not to get into a debate (which is fun) but to do some man to man stuff. I could have dressed it up for the female viewers but that's no fun.

Well, you must admit, you dressed it up a bit because first you called us child-like and now you have gotten down to the basics and called our behaviour "immature". I knew what you were saying right off, but I thought about child-like and thought about how great the world would be if we saw it through child-like eyes. That is another discussion...

I don't get how all women tend to act "immature". What does that mean or rather can you give examples. The thing is, we are individuals and are attracted to different things. I have a problem with being categorised.

Life, women and men are all colours of the rainbow and if you resonate with blue then that is what you'll attract. Not all women are pink and not all men are blue. I think the world would be boring if everyone was the same and all men and all women acted in a specific way. I agree that there are gender traits, but I would not go so far to say there are "Laws" about it and your description of women sounded a little inflexible and judgemental, if not sexist.

[Joely]

Originally Posted by cylon

Well, take out the word immature then, it's not getting us anywhere. You're taking it as a negative, so maybe I'm not clarifying what I'm saying very well.

Where "immature" was, put "more guided by emotions as opposed to reason".

And men are more guided by reason than by their emotions (strong silent type).

We can't have it both ways, be men and women and be the EXACT same way, with the same amounts of this or that.

Taken, incidentally, from a review of the state of knowledge of synaesthesia, it would appear that the limbic system, which handles emotion and qualitative information, actually feeds the rational neocortex. Our apparently "rational" decisions are in fact based on emotional assessments. We just like to kid ourselves about being rational - or you do.

9.3: When we think of our brains, we usually think of a computer, a reasoning machine in our heads that runs things. This is consistent with the hierarchical model. But emotion - which word I use to include irrational, a-rational, and non-verbal knowledge and cognition - is what actually directs our thoughts and actions. Like the Wizard of Oz, it is our a-rational inner life that pulls the levers behind the curtain. Our inner knowledge behind the curtain is largely inaccessible to introspective language, which means that what we feel about something is more valid than what we think or say about that something.

8.5 I am hardly rejecting either reason or the role of the neocortex in objective assessment or assigning meaning. Though we quickly speak of reason dominating emotion, the reverse is actually true: the limbic brain easily overwhelms thinking.

And this contains my favourite quote of all time:

Reason is just the endless paperwork of the mind. The heart of our creativity is our direct experience and the salience that our limbic brain gives it. Allowing it to be that does not stop us from overlaying rational considerations on it - after which we can talk, recount, explain, interpret, and analyze to our heart's content.

From: this article: Cytowic 1995 on the Phenomenology and Neurophysiology of Synaesthesia.

Men and women are as much guided by emotions, hormones, and brain chemicals as each other. There is a strange thing in human life: we think that we can be rational in a way that overrides the chemical and hormonal function of the brain. Basically, the argument raised by Cytowic is that what we think is a rational decision or assessment is based on emotional responses and reactions.

I ought to add that Cytowic is discussing in these quotes not the workings solely of the synaesthetic mind, but all human minds. It just so happens that synaesthesia allows one to examine these kind of functions in detail.