Can we really trust anyone else?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I feel like a broken record here, but James: read I Need Your Love by Byron Katie. Do the Work.

She says something in that book that I think applies here. I don't have it in front of me so I am paraphrasing: What we are is love. You cannot lose love you can only lose the awarness of love. When you meet someone and "fall in love" you think they are providing it to you but really it was in you all along, they've just reflected it to you.

If you really begin to question your beliefs about love and what other people should and shouldn't do with regards to it you will begin to feel and see a transformation. Really look at what Angela and eveyone else is saying. I've been learning this lesson with one of the greatest teachers of all time: my ex! I believed so many things about him and our relationship that simply melt away when looked at through the lens of 100% responsibility, freedom (for me and everyone else to be who we are and who we are not), the belief that eveyone is doing the best they can with what they know and that we are all the same underneath.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

...Really,it just means you learned a lesson from it. Well by working out,i meant 'not ending' LOL

Rockchick, you are like a frog in the blender!

Do you think a relationship "not ending" is better than learning a lesson? ALL relationships end or transform eventually, every single one, without fail. That's part of the deal. Relating with people -- being in relationships -- what do you think that is FOR? What do you think you will HAVE when you get there?

You struggle and struggle and struggle, because you are so married to the outcomes you want. Aside from the fact that that thwarts the Law of Attraction and gives you more of what you resist, it also creates a tremendous space of no freedom, both for yourself and for other people -- I would say particularly you are creating a space of no freedom for Mr. Rockstar. No wonder he stays away! He can smell No Freedom coming off you in huge waves.

After all your myriad posts, you keep insisting that you want a relationship, but every fiber of your being is resisting being available to one (I can just hear you, "But I FEEL like I want one!"). When you are really ready for a loving, long-term mutually beneficial relationship, you will focus on what it takes: being a person who generates availability, freedom, love, and connection. A person into whose arms your partner feels warm and free to step into.

First step: jump out of the blender, froggy! by which I mean: surrender and accept what is; let go of your need for everything to be just so, exactly as you want it to be, and for everyone to do your bidding; and allow for the idea that it's possible that the Universe will support you.

(....I know, I know....."Yeah, but...!!!)

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

ALL relationships end or transform eventually, every single one, without fail. That's part of the deal.

Hey you typed the words that were in my head as I got out of bed this morning. This applies not only to romantic relationships, but friendships, relationships with co-workers as well. Everything changes. Only thing you can do is continue to be your best self, so that is the self that relates, in good or bad developments.

More hard learned lessons.

[Angela]

It is a hard lesson, isn't it, but it's also a relief! You can stop holding on so tightly, stop fearing that things might end; you can let go of your need to be that couple who just celebrated their 83rd wedding anniversary and made it into the Guiness Book of World's Records, because even THEIR relationship will transform, and probably quite soon.

It's such a wonderful thing, too! How colorless and dull life would be if relationships remained static.

[cylon]

I guess so. I'm having trouble with the forgiving and forgetting part. I have acceptance, but part of me says forgiveness means "everything's ok", but even though I accept certain things, no they are not ok, lol. Takes courage to cut people out of your life.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

I guess so. I'm having trouble with the forgiving and forgetting part. I have acceptance, but part of me says forgiveness means "everything's ok", but even though I accept certain things, no they are not ok, lol. Takes courage to cut people out of your life.

You mean, it's like saying, "it's okay that you treated me so shabbily"? "You did some things that really devastated and hurt me, and that's alright; you can keep doing that if you need to." Like that?

Remember that accepting and forgiving doesn't mean condoning. It doesn't mean, "You can do whatever you want to me, and I'll just stand here smiling and cheering you on." You don't even need to forget what happened, although you probably have more constructive stuff you'd rather focus on, and it would make more room for the inspiration if you were to let go of the memory.

Accepting and forgiving means: Acknowledge that something happened and you paid a price (feeling pain, betrayal, resentment, loneliness, whatever). It happened, and all the *shoulds* in the world won't change that it happened. When you find yourself saying, "that *shouldn't* have happened! It should have gone another way! She was *wrong* to do that!" recognize that you are arguing with reality. With what you've learned, you are free to make other choices in similar situations, but what happened happened.

It doesn't mean anything about you.

Forgiving means: once you recognize that you paid that price, consider how long you're willing to keep paying it.

Consider that we are all doing our best, so our actions are all right within that context. Your right action might mean you must let her go with love, or it may mean you need to report her to the police. Whatever your next right action is, once you've acted, any price you keep paying after that is Old Pain -- the only return you're getting is nourishment for feeling bad. You can keep paying that old invoice if you want to. Or you can file it under "Paid in Full" and let it go. In that case, you'll be free to be really powerfully present for the next fabulously attractive woman you encounter. You'll be free to generate something wonderful and creative, without the encumbrance of all that old pain.

Wouldn't that be worth doing?

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by dancer

James,

Is it possible you are still hanging on to the pain left over from your last relationship? In my last relationship, I was cheated on and lied to. At the end of it, I swore off relationships, forever. I decided to do some work on myself, it has been a real learning experience. I dropped my victim way of living and much more.

It wasn't a relationship, it was basically a woman who I truly believed was interested in me (first time ever), turned out to not be attracted in the slightest sense (look at the how to fall....thread a little earlier back for everything).

When I start telling myself things like "She's actually going to be my first girlfriend " or "Wow, this attractive woman is actually talking to and taking an interest in me", then absolutley nothing about it happens. It's like I don't want to risk feeling any sort of pain like that again.

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

If you really begin to question your beliefs about love and what other people should and shouldn't do with regards to it you will begin to feel and see a transformation. Really look at what Angela and eveyone else is saying. I've been learning this lesson with one of the greatest teachers of all time: my ex! I believed so many things about him and our relationship that simply melt away when looked at through the lens of 100% responsibility, freedom (for me and everyone else to be who we are and who we are not), the belief that eveyone is doing the best they can with what they know and that we are all the same underneath.

Maybe this is the sort of thing that's happened to me. I believed I learned a lot from her over all that time, and that's what I've come to expect from other women.

[cylon]

Thanks for that Angela I need to dwell on it more. I guess I really thought forgiveness meant it was ok, I'm wrong. Forgiveness is just acceptance. I also thought forgiveness meant that you have to start associating with the people again, since you "forgive them" it means it's a clean slate and you're supposed to act like everyone's on the same page again.

But I guess it's more acceptance, no grudges, and yes, feel free to move on and respect your own personal boundaries at the same time, even if that includes not speaking to the person anymore, even though you have "forgiven them".

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Maybe this is the sort of thing that's happened to me. I believed I learned a lot from her over all that time, and that's what I've come to expect from other women.

I would look at that a different way. The lessons I am learning from my ex have nothing whatsoever to do with him or figuring out how "all guys are." They have everything to do with me and discovering where I am stopped, where I have limiting beliefs, where I can let go of old pain and what inspiring new possibilities I am inspired to generate. Putting the focus too much on the outside robs you of a really powerful opportunity to be present to what is going on with you in your own life. This girl may have just been a signpost or a mirror pointing you to what would be good to examine in yourself.

From my perspective, this situation has nothing to do with her.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

Rockchick, you are like a frog in the blender!

lol...cute,but i dont know what that means exactly...i jump around a lot?

Do you think a relationship "not ending" is better than learning a lesson?

Well learning lessons is what we do to practice for a lasting relationship,lessons are only there to support the main goal,to have a happy healthy relationship. So yes,i do think a relationship lasting is better than having to learn yet another lesson...otherwise its just like going to school forever and never getting the chance to put what you have learned to work!

You struggle and struggle and struggle, because you are so married to the outcomes you want. Aside from the fact that that thwarts the Law of Attraction and gives you more of what you resist, it also creates a tremendous space of no freedom, both for yourself and for other people -- I would say particularly you are creating a space of no freedom for Mr. Rockstar. No wonder he stays away! He can smell No Freedom coming off you in huge waves.

But that makes no sense,since HE IS the outcome i am "married to"...this would only make sense for every other guy,because they are the ones i am not open to!

After all your myriad posts, you keep insisting that you want a relationship, but every fiber of your being is resisting being available to one (I can just hear you, "But I FEEL like I want one!"). When you are really ready for a loving, long-term mutually beneficial relationship, you will focus on what it takes: being a person who generates availability, freedom, love, and connection. A person into whose arms your partner feels warm and free to step into.

And what,in this particular thread,made you feel that way now? I am not even talking about myself anymore.

[dave marshall]

In my experience relationships, like all else are a reflection of your own ideas, beliefs, fears, hurt, hopes etc.

My relationships in the past have been hurtful to me and others but having done alot of work on my relationship with myself, other relationships are now far far better than ever. As I trust myself, the world trusts me and it's great!

dave

[Shorebird]

Hi Angela

Your thinking really inspired me especially the "every relationship works out" one.

So in a relationship, if we are hurt, and we break up, can we meet the same person again to make our relationship the way we always wanted to make before?

Most people say we should not, because it will hurt you both again. So if its we who need to irradicate our fears, why do we go for other persons? Why not be strong and go for the same person? Many people think that seeking other relationships will help. After break up people say you that you will get a better person. So why do people think like that? People say that you should move on....move on with the same attitude? Or to move on with a new outlook after changing yourself . If you are changing your attitude, then why go for another relationship if you can give another chance to your previous relationship?

Is going back that bad an idea?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Shorebird

Is going back that bad an idea?

"Going back" just doesn't work for me in living a life I love.

Which is not to say that I can't go forward with someone I've already been in a relationship with. It means: trying to recapture something you had, or to force a relationship into a box of how you think it *should* go, is a recipe for No Freedom.

If you love a person with whom you broke up in the past and want to forge a loving, long-term, mutually beneficial relationship (LLTMBR) with herm, I think you'll be most successful if you approach it like a brand-new relationship, and greet the person as if you have never met herm before. Actually, I think it's a good idea to treat everybody like that -- like you are meeting them newly each time. You have memories, yes; but be alert to the fact that like you can grow and adapt and are a new person in each moment, so is everyone else. You can never entirely know someone -- not even yourself.

I think if you attempt to recapture something or get something back, you are living in the past. More power is available when you welcome the present moment, and allow life to unfold as it will. That may include making a concerted effort to make an LLTMBR work with someone you've been with before; it may also involve more "letting go" -- simply because you've got more to let go of -- memories, grudges, old pain together -- than you might with someone new. That can be a great learning experience, and a wonderful opportunity to nurture fulfilling love!

And if you go into such a relationship being the way same way you were being, you can expect it to go pretty much the same way it did before. Why not try on a new way of being, one that inspires you, as you relate to people -- both the ones you've been involved with and the ones you've never met.

[uberinquisitive]

James, I'm assuming this girl who seemed interested, but wasn't...she was young, no? Just a girl, figuring out what she wants and needs.

When I was young, I was quite shady to a couple of guys. Honestly, it wasn't about them. It was about me trying to figure out who I was. And, for some people (like me), negative actions are powerful ways to know myself.

Now, I am a very different person because I'm older and more experienced.

Also - when it comes to romantic love - disappointments hurt us much more than in any other type of relationship. There were probably other times in your life when some male acquaintance promised you guys would hang out, but it never happened. I'm guessing you didn't give it a second thought. However, if it was a girl - then it would be much more painful.

Everyone eventually disappoints us, because sometimes their agenda and ours doesn't totally mesh. It's not the girl's fault that you take her actions much more personally than you would another guy's. That your decision (and the decision of most people, it seems).

If a male acquaintance flakes out on you, do you decide you will never make plans with another male acquaintance again? Of course not.

So, when people say that not trusting women is actually you not trusting yourself - it's totally true. You don't trust that your ego can withstand a woman's rejection. Your ego is healthy enough to withstand other types of rejection - but not a woman's. That's 100% your decision to give women that power.

Personally, I would love to get to the point where I can treat my boyfriends like I do female friends - I never take anything my female friends personally. I give them space to live their own life, and I'm always happy to see them, even after months of no contact.

My female friends are not superior people to my boyfriends - it's just that I treat them differently, because my ego isn't wrapped up in my friendships. If my friend acts badly, then I can let her go and not think much of it later. But if a boyfriend does a similar thing, I obsess over it like it's the end of the world.

Granted, I think sex changes the dynamic of relationships. But, shouldn't you be even more kind and understanding to the person you share your body with?

I don't know....just my rambling thoughts.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

James, I'm assuming this girl who seemed interested, but wasn't...she was young, no? Just a girl, figuring out what she wants and needs.

Well, if you consider five years older than me "young", then sure.... I was 19 when I met her.

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

When I was young, I was quite shady to a couple of guys. Honestly, it wasn't about them. It was about me trying to figure out who I was. And, for some people (like me), negative actions are powerful ways to know myself.

Now, I am a very different person because I'm older and more experienced.

Well, if we're going to consider her here, this is everything to my knowledge here, (may have mentioned some earlier here, but I can't remember exactly what).

I began to take an interest on the second day we've seen each other in class, as from that moment forward, she sat next to me and we talked everyday that semester (besides the occasional absences, of course). She didn't tell me she was seeing someone until about two months or so later, and well, OK, I don't need to be re-describing the rest of the story, which everyone probably knows about (from here.)

But now, it's not that I'm not longing for her and want to be with her or anything like that; It's more along the lines like "Everything that happened to me, and the pain I felt throughout that time, I KNOW I don't want to experience it ever again, why would I want to take that risk." Or even if I'll ever be as close to someone as beautiful as her again (Well, this only applies if you can consider what I've described about it as "close").

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

Also - when it comes to romantic love - disappointments hurt us much more than in any other type of relationship. There were probably other times in your life when some male acquaintance promised you guys would hang out, but it never happened. I'm guessing you didn't give it a second thought. However, if it was a girl - then it would be much more painful.

Everyone eventually disappoints us, because sometimes their agenda and ours doesn't totally mesh. It's not the girl's fault that you take her actions much more personally than you would another guy's. That your decision (and the decision of most people, it seems).

If a male acquaintance flakes out on you, do you decide you will never make plans with another male acquaintance again? Of course not.

Honestly, I don't remember any time I was ever so-called "rejected" by guy friends, so either A: It never happened, or more likely B: It happened and I just didn't think anything of it, like you said. But, as you also mentioned, it's different, it hurts much more when it comes to rejection from romantic love.

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

So, when people say that not trusting women is actually you not trusting yourself - it's totally true. You don't trust that your ego can withstand a woman's rejection. Your ego is healthy enough to withstand other types of rejection - but not a woman's. That's 100% your decision to give women that power.

While rejection is certainly a problem that everyone faces, it's not my only issue I'm concerned about. Even if you learn they really ARE interested, but are already with someone they're not mentioning, and you just wind up being "The Other Guy (or Girl, which'd be your case)". Or even after that, once you'd already be together, how can you trust them to be completely faithful to you?

Originally Posted by uberinquisitive

Personally, I would love to get to the point where I can treat my boyfriends like I do female friends - I never take anything my female friends personally. I give them space to live their own life, and I'm always happy to see them, even after months of no contact.

My female friends are not superior people to my boyfriends - it's just that I treat them differently, because my ego isn't wrapped up in my friendships. If my friend acts badly, then I can let her go and not think much of it later. But if a boyfriend does a similar thing, I obsess over it like it's the end of the world.

Granted, I think sex changes the dynamic of relationships. But, shouldn't you be even more kind and understanding to the person you share your body with?

Well, if you were able to treat your boyfriend like that, would you still consider them to be your boyfriend?

As Cylon has already described (and Angela debunked ), Men and Women are different. And there aren't exactly games of 'competing for affection' from regular friends.

Just how much of a role my ego would play in those types of situations, I'm unsure.

[Angela]

I am having a very weird moment, cuz I see that everything I have written to you here in this thread was really meant for my future self: the self that would be going through what I've gone through for the last couple of days. Thanks so much for posting this thread and listening so generously, because what I've said to you is the perfect thing for me to read now, for myself. Freaky!!

By the way, I don't doubt that there are general differences between men and women other than the obvious biological ones. I only want to "debunk" the idea that all men or women are this or that, and to go into a relationship insisting on believing that you "know" what to expect, just because of their gender, is a mistake that leads to No Freedom (for either of you) and therefore No Love.

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by Angela

I am having a very weird moment, cuz I see that everything I have written to you here in this thread was really meant for my future self: the self that would be going through what I've gone through for the last couple of days. Thanks so much for posting this thread and listening so generously, because what I've said to you is the perfect thing for me to read now, for myself. Freaky!!

I think that's known as the predestination paradox .

I'd think it can seem weird to when you don't *want* to apply the advice you give, to yourself (just in general, here).

Originally Posted by Angela

By the way, I don't doubt that there are general differences between men and women other than the obvious biological ones. I only want to "debunk" the idea that all men or women are this or that, and to go into a relationship insisting on believing that you "know" what to expect, just because of their gender, is a mistake that leads to No Freedom (for either of you) and therefore No Love.

Which is something I agree with, and I suppose I asked the question from both genders' perspectives, as in "Can Women really Trust Men?" too.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Which is something I agree with, and I suppose I asked the question from both genders' perspectives, as in "Can Women really Trust Men?" too.

I have come to learn that it is really about trusting myself. I do not mean trusting myself not to betray another, but do I trust that I will survive, on an emotional level, if someone betrays me. Of course I will. Will it hurt? Absolutely, but will I get through it? ABSOLUTELY.

James, when you hand your power over to another then you are giving them the power to hurt you. You are making them responsible for your happiness and unhappiness. You can choose to avoid that hurt, at all costs, and miss out on the gift of love and intimacy or let go of your fear of getting hurt.

Not trusting, whether it be women or yourself, is really setting yourself up for a lonely miserable life. Why do that to yourself?

[jamestl2]

Well, don't relationships "require" you to trust the other person? If you don't, is it really a relationship?

Besides the pain I felt being alone and by myself (before I met her) was FAR LESS less painful than after everything that happened to me (if you could really call it "pain" then, because it didn't really bother me that much).

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Well, don't relationships "require" you to trust the other person? If you don't, is it really a relationship?

Besides the pain I felt being alone and by myself (before I met her) was FAR LESS less painful than after everything that happened to me (if you could really call it "pain" then, because it didn't really bother me that much).

Is it because now that you've experienced trust, it feels like you can "lose" it, and then you'll be diminished? Like you've "invested" something and you could easily come out behind? That's how it's sort of been occurring for me the last few days, even though in my head I realize I can't be diminished or lose anything of value. Still.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Well, don't relationships "require" you to trust the other person? If you don't, is it really a relationship?

Besides the pain I felt being alone and by myself (before I met her) was FAR LESS less painful than after everything that happened to me (if you could really call it "pain" then, because it didn't really bother me that much).

Trust is very important to me. In my past relationships it has been something I have given from day one. As I told you earlier in this thread, I was cheated on and that person lost my trust. So, he did something which caused me not to trust him. It hurt like hell, but in hindsight it was a great lesson where I learnt much about myself and it was something from which I have grown. I also recognised signs that were there very early in the relationship, which I chose to ignore. I experienced a cheater, but I do not believe all men are cheaters and am willing to give my trust to the next man in my life.

You, on the other hand, doubt you can ever trust another woman and are reluctant to have another relationship. You also wrote somewhere that woman are born manipulators. Well, you might be wrong about that.

What would it take for you to trust a woman? And, do you believe in love?

[Lola]

OK, dancer, we really do have some kind of freaky connection going today.

Your post in this thread earlier today.

Originally Posted by dancer

I have come to learn that it is really about trusting myself. I do not mean trusting myself not to betray another, but do I trust that I will survive, on an emotional level, if someone betrays me. Of course I will. Will it hurt? Absolutely, but will I get through it? ABSOLUTELY.

James, when you hand your power over to another then you are giving them the power to hurt you. You are making them responsible for your happiness and unhappiness.

My post in a different thread - after you posted here but before I read it.

Originally Posted by Lola

One thing I am learning about trust is it's really nothing to do with trusting anyone else. It's all about trusting myself. Trusting that I'll be ok, safe, unharmed, etc, etc, regardless of the actions of others. Does that make sense? Trying to be more trusting of others feels like it's dependent on what, why, how someone else does something, thereby taking the power to trust out of my hands.

wanna play telepathy?

[jamestl2]

Originally Posted by Angela

Is it because now that you've experienced trust, it feels like you can "lose" it, and then you'll be diminished? Like you've "invested" something and you could easily come out behind? That's how it's sort of been occurring for me the last few days, even though in my head I realize I can't be diminished or lose anything of value. Still.

Maybe, although I don't know exactly what you mean by "experienced trust".

It's difficult to describe. Like everything I ever thought that what attraction was, no longer applied, and I feel foolish, for thinking that everything that happened meant that she was attracted to me. And now I'll have no idea if someone else is actually interested in me that way, as I won't be able to tell.

If men are suppose to be "bad" at picking up those sort of "I'm interested" hints dropped by women, just imagine how little I can detect now (even before I met her, I wouldn't even consider myself on par with the other guys abilities of being able to notice them).

Originally Posted by dancer

You, on the other hand, doubt you can ever trust another woman and are reluctant to have another relationship. You also wrote somewhere that woman are born manipulators. Well, you might be wrong about that.

I don't remember saying that.

Originally Posted by dancer

What would it take for you to trust a woman?

That's just it, I don't know if it's possible, as I'm asking via the thread title.

Originally Posted by dancer

And, do you believe in love?

I think that's too general of a question..... what kind? And under what circumstances?

[Liara Covert]

To realize we are each pure love, to discover the meaning of unconditional, infinite self-acceptance, permits a person to move beyond fears and obstacles. Byron Katie's book is a great one. Other references exist too. The key is to find some source or guide that helps get the message through.

Realize that what is yours no one can take away, delay or prevent you from receiving. It is unlimited, unconditional, ever-present and easily accessible. Your success is independent of other people, circumstances or events beyond your control. Everything begins and ends within your soul.