Can we really trust anyone else?

[Angela]

I'm not upset, and I don't think you're a bigot. I quite adore you. That's why I was surprised to hear you expressing what I consider to be a bigoted statements.

You're right -- the word "immature" is a loaded one, and it has the effect when believed generally, of reducing one's market value -- their ability to get paid fairly when compared to someone who is "mature" (e.g., male.) Same thing with "emotional" vs. "rational" -- first, it's not true (see Joely), and second, it has that same effect of reducing one's perceived value. Men may have to deal with the fallout from beliefs like this in that they feel oppressed in being fully expressed, and for women one of the detrimental effects is that they have a difficult time in the workplace. All based on bigoted beliefs.

I'm not upset, but I won't stand by and leave remarks like that unchallenged. It's the Norma Rae Syndrome. My feelings about your opinions in no way affect my feelings for you, whom I love.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by dancer

Well, you must admit, you dressed it up a bit because first you called us child-like and now you have gotten down to the basics and called our behaviour "immature". I knew what you were saying right off, but I thought about child-like and thought about how great the world would be if we saw it through child-like eyes. That is another discussion...

I don't get how all women tend to act "immature". What does that mean or rather can you give examples. The thing is, we are individuals and are attracted to different things. I have a problem with being categorised.

Life, women and men are all colours of the rainbow and if you resonate with blue then that is what you'll attract. Not all women are pink and not all men are blue. I think the world would be boring if everyone was the same and all men and all women acted in a specific way. I agree that there are gender traits, but I would not go so far to say there are "Laws" about it and your description of women sounded a little inflexible and judgemental, if not sexist.

Dancer, children are more immature than adults. I bet some people wish they could be kids again. And I'm not categorizing anyone, I'm talking about the sexes in general. Each of us are unique.

Basically you guys are saying men and women are exactly the same but we have different body parts. I'm saying, no that's not true. The issue here is you take immature as an insult. Well women can ACT immature (as well as men), but yes I agree that women on average are more likely to do that. This is no excuse for men btw.

What do you want me to do? Change my opinion because it's upsetting you?

Look. Both men and women act immature. Yes we are unique individuals. When I said childlike, that's what I meant. Good and bad.

[dancer]

I'm not upset. Are you?

I do not want you to do anything. I thought we were having a discussion and I did not agree with some of the labels and generalisations in your post. I voiced my opinon and by no means was on the attack. Defensive, yes.

Like Angela, I think you are great and love joining you in discussion! Perhaps, a part of me wanted you to take a look at the beliefs you have regarding women. Not for me, but for you and that's because I want you to attract girl(s) that resonate with the great guy I have come to know on this forum.

Peace, Cylon.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

--- I was just waiting to see what Aspiring, Rose, and NotesMaeve would say when they get a load of you!

I think it best I don't say what I think about this particular topic .

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think it best I don't say what I think about this particular topic .

That's alright, we can feel you over there vibrating!

[cylon]

Originally Posted by dancer

I'm not upset. Are you?

I do not want you to do anything. I thought we were having a discussion and I did not agree with some of the labels and generalisations in your post. I voiced my opinon and by no means was on the attack. Defensive, yes.

Like Angela, I think you are great and love joining you in discussion! Perhaps, a part of me wanted you to take a look at the beliefs you have regarding women. Not for me, but for you and that's because I want you to attract girl(s) that resonate with the great guy I have come to know on this forum.

Peace, Cylon.

Well I was crying for a while there but I'm better now. Know this about me I'm sarcastic and a smart-ass.

Anyway, it's interesting. I'm not really surprised the reaction I got here, but that's what discussions are for. It helps me to further clarify what I'm thinking/feeling. I don't mind. I mean, I am what I am. I look at the world the way I do. I don't feel it's sexist. But, whatever. I am pro-male.

Actually what is interesting in an IM standpoint is in another thread we were talking about debates. I remembered when Angela and I had it out over men writing love letters.... and here we go again, lol. I definitely attracted that.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think it best I don't say what I think about this particular topic .

You just did, with the little "".

You shouldn't just rule out what the ladies here are saying though, you don't have to agree with me 100%.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

and here we go again, lol. I definitely attracted that.

See? We're a good fit. But I wouldn't say one of is more emotional and the other is more rational.

In fact, it's kind of funny that you were concerned about us girls being upset, when we were being quite rational, and you seemed to be having more of an emotional reaction! You can never really tell in a texting situation though, I reckon.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by cylon

You just did, with the little "".

You shouldn't just rule out what the ladies here are saying though, you don't have to agree with me 100%.

HAHAHA! You are good at sarcasm .

[cylon]

Originally Posted by dancer

Perhaps, a part of me wanted you to take a look at the beliefs you have regarding women. Not for me, but for you and that's because I want you to attract girl(s) that resonate with the great guy I have come to know on this forum..

Thanks for that, I appreciate it.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

HAHAHA! You are good at sarcasm .

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm not upset, but I won't stand by and leave remarks like that unchallenged. It's the Norma Rae Syndrome. My feelings about your opinions in no way affect my feelings for you, whom I love.

I know, don't mind either. This is good for me actually.

And I'll give you the part about loaded words, lol.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

See? We're a good fit. But I wouldn't say one of is more emotional and the other is more rational.

In fact, it's kind of funny that you were concerned about us girls being upset, when we were being quite rational, and you seemed to be having more of an emotional reaction! You can never really tell in a texting situation though, I reckon.

Touché!

(semi-tooshay)

[jamestl2]

OK......
I've tried following everyones replies here as closely as I can , and the basic sense I'm getting here is that:

• Men and Women are different (not just biologically, but chemically, mentally, etc. as well), and noticing those differences doesn't make you sexist or a bigot
• Women are more emotional, irrational, security-seeking, etc. than men
• Most women are not attracted to emotional men, (and vice versa with reasoning)

(Like I said, I was trying to follow it as best as I can )

Also remember when I wrote my blog, I was thinking it could apply to women just as much so as men, like when I said at the beginning of the post:

Of course this blog post is written from my own perspective, so for women, do the gender math.

Originally Posted by Joely

I've begun to notice that what we do with relationships is walk in with an outcome in mind. A relationship is successful if he or she is everything we imagined and it lasts "forever". We expect the other person to provide us with something: a sense of being loved, secure, adored, whatever it happens to be, and when they don't do that, we feel that they've failed us somehow. I'm currently in the process of rejigging how I see relationships, moving from a mindset where the partner provides something to sharing life in something and growing together rather than leaning on each other as though we're missing something only the other can provide. Does that make sense?

I think so, but does this mean you should blindly trust the other person? Take everything together on faith?

How can we tell ourselves to believe that potential partners would love you completely, never betray us, won't go sleeping around, etc.?

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

James, have you seen a movie called Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind?

No.... what's it about?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

OK......
I've tried following everyones replies here as closely as I can , and the basic sense I'm getting here is that:

• Men and Women are different (not just biologically, but chemically, mentally, etc. as well), and noticing those differences doesn't make you sexist or a bigot
• Women are more emotional, irrational, security-seeking, etc. than men
• Most women are not attracted to emotional men, (and vice versa with reasoning)

(Like I said, I was trying to follow it as best as I can )

I think you missed the bit about how that's all crap!

But when it comes to trust, it's not about "blind" trust or believing that your beloved will never lie to you and that she should or will always love you completely. It's about eyes-wide-open trust for yourself, trust that if she lies or doesn't love you the way you think you should be loved, or if she dies or leaves you, you will be fine and you can be in love with your own life regardless of the actions and thoughts of your sweetheart, may she rest in peace.

It's about trusting that no matter what happens, you are supported by the Universe. You are okay. And there's so much to learn from and enjoy about what you experience along the way, that the risk of pain is like tiny little ants marching across the Great Wall of China.

[cylon]

James that's a fair assessment of my point, but make sure to add this: having this knowledge means you must take responsibility for how you feel towards the opposite sex. You are not a victim. If you are with the wrong women who don't bring out the best in you, it is your responsibility to cut them loose and not complain or make it "their fault".

I'm even going to go so far as to say that if she is giving you trouble, it's your fault for not spotting the signs earlier on.

Be the best man you can be and you will find chicks who resonate with that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

... having this knowledge means you must take responsibility for how you feel towards the opposite sex. You are not a victim. If you are with the wrong women who don't bring out the best in you, it is your responsibility to cut them loose and not complain or make it "their fault".

right. on. cylon.

I love that model for a relationship when you consider that a good partner is someone with whom you encourage and support each other in being your best possible selves, while at the same time granting each other the freedom to be exactly who you are and exactly who you are not.

It sounds like a dichotomy, but it's not really.

[jamestl2]

Honestly right now, I don't really know where I am

Originally Posted by Angela

But when it comes to trust, it's not about "blind" trust or believing that your beloved will never lie to you and that she should or will always love you completely. It's about eyes-wide-open trust for yourself, trust that if she lies or doesn't love you the way you think you should be loved, or if she dies or leaves you, you will be fine and you can be in love with your own life regardless of the actions and thoughts of your sweetheart, may she rest in peace.

It's all about trusting ourselves? So do we not place *any* such trust in others then?

Originally Posted by cylon

I'm even going to go so far as to say that if she is giving you trouble, it's your fault for not spotting the signs earlier on.

Maybe to a degree .

I don't really feel I've ever "blamed anyone" else per se, just feel like I was kicking myself in the past for not doing something about it sooner, all the opportunities I had to either be more direct or cut her out, and not realizing that there was no attraction that existed there. (But that was all a long while ago)

Originally Posted by cylon

Be the best man you can be and you will find chicks who resonate with that.

How could you explain that sort of thinking to those who have been wanting or seeking love their entire lives, they believe they've been the best person that thyey could, but end up dying alone in the end? (hypothetically of course, as I don't know anyone personally that has)

[cylon]

James--exactly, it's hypothetical. The answer is "man up bro".

Snap out of it.

Control the frame.

Don't settle for second-class treatment from women.

No exceptions.

Be strong inside.

Watch what happens.

[cylon]

I've learned this crap the hard way. Victim doesn't work. It just doesn't work dude.

[jamestl2]

Is it really as simple as just telling yourself "be strong"? Easier said than done, IMO.

I do wish I could just convince myself deep down, "forget about her", "not all women are like that", etc.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

Is it really as simple as just telling yourself "be strong"? Easier said than done, IMO.

No shyt. Trial by fire. This crap toughens you up. It will make you a man if you let it. I'm just coming out of something this, somehow I survived, and I'm telling you what I've learned.

Originally Posted by jamestl2

I do wish I could just convince myself deep down, "forget about her", "not all women are like that", etc.

What's your other option. Tell me right now.

What is your other option besides doing just that.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

It's all about trusting ourselves? So do we not place *any* such trust in others then?

Well, you don't have to trust others, but I find it works really, really well in living a life I love. I'm talking about trusting others to do exactly what's right for them; trusting them to make choices that work for them, even if that choice doesn't work so well for me.

Your whole model of "trust" is a house of cards. What you mean by trust is: others must do what you want them to do when you want them to do it, otherwise you will be injured. Well, man up, buddy! (I'm just kidding. I wanted to say that since cylon did.) It applies, though -- that is one thing you really can trust: People will constantly not do what you want them to do when you want them to do it! You can count on that! You can trust in that! And you will constantly not do what others want you to do when they want you to do it. Even in the closest, most successful relationships, that happens a lot.

So try thinking of trust in a whole 'nuther way. People other than yourself are all behaving with positive intent -- that is, they are making choices with some intention of benefit for their lives. Just like you! And very often in a relationship, two people will make a concerted, conscious effort to behave with each other's benefit at the forefront of their will. And still it doesn't always happen! D'oh! What you can trust is: you are okay, and maybe even better than okay if you make skillful choices. You can trust that a relationship won't kill you (probably) and you can trust that whatever you learn from discomfort or pain in a relationship will serve you in a way that you might not see right away.

In a way, trust is like unconditional love -- it's not FOR anyone in particular, except you. You just generate it so that it exists in the world. Why? Because like love, generating trust feels good on purpose.

[cylon]

One thing I am learning is I cannot expect other people to be the way I am or would wish them to be. It can be extremely frustrating, but people can only give you what they have in them to give. And you can only receive it if you have it too.

To have expectations of other people is irrational (lol). People will let you down and people will surprise you in a good way as well.

All you can do is set some standards for yourself, on how you choose to act towards others. Trust yourself first. They may reciprocate, they may not. But not having expectations allows you to not be so affected by curveballs that come your way.

I'm still getting the hang of it myself.

Basically what Angela said.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

I disagree! ALL relationships work out. Sometimes it works out that you part after a month, and sometimes it works out that you die at the same time after 75 years together. Sometimes it works out that you let her go with love, and sometimes it works out that you carry a grudge against him till you're dead. Sometimes it works out like it's working out with me and Danger Man, and sometimes it works out like it did with Rockchick and her Rockstar, and sometimes it works out the way it has for Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward. Sometimes you learn something important about your life, and sometimes you carry old pain over into the next relationship.

One way or another, it all works out!

Interesting! I wish i shared your definition of "working out" LOL Really,it just means you learned a lesson from it. Well by working out,i meant 'not ending' LOL Thats all i was getting at,regarding the original poster's problem with knowing love will end in pain so how can you trust anyone.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Your reality is whatever you choose it to be.

If you believe that falling in love is a stupid thing, then you will look at your own life, and those of your friends, relatives, neighbours and colleagues .....

... and you will find plenty of evidence that falling in love is a stupid thing.

If you choose to believe that falling in love is a wonderful thing, then you will look at your own life, and those of your friends, relatives, neighbours and colleagues,

..... and you will find plenty of evidence that falling in love is a wonderful thing.

All ...... up ..... to ....... you!

Then why do i see BOTH?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Rockchick26

Then why do i see BOTH?

Because you believe that falling in love is both stupid and wonderful.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Because you believe that falling in love is both stupid and wonderful.

lmao! But i still don't get how my thoughts have anything to do with it. Ok lets say i know 4 couples. 2 of them have a perfect marriage and the other 2 are rocky. Lets say i starting using the LOA to attract a loving relationship into my life. Lets say it works. Now,i am STILL going to know all 4 of those couples,including the 2 that have rocky marriages. But,how can this be,if my reality is only that marriage is wonderful and beautiful? Likewise if i suddenly get all cynical about love and declare i am going to give up on it and it all sucks and it can just bite me. Does this mean that the two happy couples i know are going to suddenly start having problems?

[dancer]

James,

Is it possible you are still hanging on to the pain left over from your last relationship? In my last relationship, I was cheated on and lied to. At the end of it, I swore off relationships, forever. I decided to do some work on myself, it has been a real learning experience. I dropped my victim way of living and much more. I'm starting to feel ready to open my heart to another, actually, I'm getting excited about it. I'll be putting out an intention, real soon.

What are the underlying feelings behind you not wanting to trust? Work on them. If you are re-living every minute of the heartache, STOP. Don't deny the feelings, they are valid, but feel them without the story. If you do not know how to stop, read Eckhart Tolle. Make an intention to allow trust within you. And know that you are responsible for what you are feeling. People do stuff, you do stuff, but it is you who chooses how you feel about it all. Taking responsibility for your emotions is a huge step. Study Angela's posts throughout the forums. They helped me when I wasn't even looking to be helped.

Love without trust sucks, so work on you and allow trust back into your life and relationships. Not trusting is the easy way and I guess will leave you like the lonely old guy you mentioned earlier in this thread. Nope, not for me and not for you. Be brave, do the work inside and watch the miracles happen. And don't forget to ask for help from the LOA.

[Tigerlilly]

Originally Posted by jamestl2

9 Reasons You Should Never Fall in Love

You can run, but you can't hide...



Honestly, loving someone is wonderful. But that is LOVING someone, that's an energy flowing from you to someone else. When you think about love and are afraid, you're not really thinking about loving someone from a point of strength, it's not really about wanting to give out and sharing, cause you're overflowing, but you're thinking from a point of neediness, it's about having to little and getting from another. That's "loving" someone the way a newborn "loves" the mother's breast. If you love someone from a point of strength and overflowing, you need him to love him, the other way you just love him cause you need him.

You can't really love others before you realise you don't need them. Like they say, love is a flower that blooms only in freedom.