Does all this self-help stuff have the opposite effect?

[Jamie]

Okay, I've put this thread here, because it seems the best place for it...

I've been listening to audio books! *shock* ... currently I'm working through Jack Canfields' How to Develop High Self Esteem, it's pretty good actually. But, my question is ...

By working through such a program (could be any program), am I not subtly telling myself, that I have low self-esteem? Kinda like, as soon as you try to start developing yourself in any one area, the implication being that you're lacking in that area?

It also seems related to the issue of discussing your issues with other people in an open forum like this, and it kinda does reinfoce beliefs of lack etc. As opposed to a direct realisation that you're perfectly OK as you are. It should be a snap-of-the-fingers type emotional realisation. Bang! You're there. Sorted.

Conversely, the more you try and work towards something, the more you're indirectly sending yourself a message that "you're not there". As such, does all this self-help stuff have the opposite effect?

What do you think?

[Angela]

Well, I think you can recognize that you are complete, whole and perfect, and at the same time be alert and awake to old pain or habitual ways of being that don't contribute to a life you love.

So, yeah, if you focus all your energy on: "I'm so lacking in self-esteem!" and trying to "fix" that, I think you get more of it, but living your life and seeing what's running you or getting in your way is something else. The first is living in the non-existent past, trying to change the unchangeable, and the second is living in the moment, being aware of what's in front of you, and clearing the path of brambles.

[Joely]

That is actually a really good question, and it's a tough one. Most people embark on a course of "self-development"/improvement/healing because they feel they lack in some specific or general area. That's contradictory to the message that "you are OK as you are", which is basically what pretty much all the best programs teach you.

The way I see it is that your perception of a lack is the motivating factor to find out who you already are, and to give you the confidence to be that person and live that life. Sometimes, we need that sense of lack, and to go through the process of discovery, to find that we already were OK, and everything we're meant to be. In any process, there has to be a delicate balance between "I'm OK here, now, as all that I am" and "I wish to develop." But real change, real progress, comes not from a feeling that "there is something I lack and I have to find it" but "I wish to evolve, to grow and develop." Can you see the difference there? It's not that you lack anything, but that you're evolving. At every point along that path, however you feel, you're still, fundamentally, OK. You might have a lot of thoughts telling you that you're not, but the greatest progress comes from accepting yourself as you are and allowing yourself to grow, rather than finding holes in yourself and trying to fill them.

J x

[Jamie]

Yep, I think you've just articulated the point I was trying to make Angela. Trying to go away from something, you just end up focusing more energy on, and thus, perpetuating the very thing you're trying to get away from.

I think it's probably very important to be clear of this dynamic, and keep ourselves focused on having more positives in our lives, rather than on getting away from negatives.

Jamie.

[Jamie]

It's also like the thing with enlightenment, the harder you work towards it, the more you're just telling yourself you're not there.

Jamie.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Jamie

It's also like the thing with enlightenment, the harder you work towards it, the more you're just telling yourself you're not there.

Jamie.

I like that! Whatever anyone thinks enlightenment is, what you've said is true!

"Are we there yet?"
"Nope, still here! Like always!"

[Joely]

There's a wonderful book by Tara Brach called Radical Acceptance, which describes how she *strove* for enlightenment, competitively meditating and trying to be the best at everything. The advice of her teachers was "Just relax."

You can't strive for peace, because it's the antithesis of it. Osho's advice would be to chill.

[Angela]

That would be a great title for a self-help book: "Just Chill."

Maybe a book of blank pages!

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Angela

That would be a great title for a self-help book: "Just Chill."

Maybe a book of blank pages!

You could doodle on them. Doodling is a lovely form of meditation.

[Angela]

When someone steals this idea from us and makes a fortune, I hope you and I remember to just chill.

[Jamie]

My god, I am sooo going to steal that idea, become a multi-billionaire and live on a yaught, err, boat.

Blank pages inside, and on the cover ....

"Just Chill" - everthing you'll ever need to know about enlightenment.

Jamie.

[wolfgang]

Yes self-help has the opposite effect - when it is approached with thinking of how much better life will be sometime when everything I want becomes mine. Because, then there is no end and maybe one can motivate one self to achieve riches and fame, but then realize there's still an emptiness in all that too. The self-help stuff that helps points to an inner peace that allows and accepts without judgment and from there goals unfold from spirit and come and go and there's not risk of dealing with how much accumulation or a specific life story means to the self and happiness.

[Jamie]

I like that wolfgang.

Some self-help, can end up where you just feel like you're straining too much, trying too hard, to be other than as you are.

Certainly in Taoism, there is a thing of not trying so hard, and allowing things to happen according to their own nature. I guess this whole Intention Manifestion thing is related to that principle, if we focus too hard, try to force it mentally, we may just wear ourselfves down, tire. As opposed to having a softer, warmer, focus. Perhaps engaging out hearts, as well as our minds.

Jamie.

[RT Wolf]

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...rsonal-growth/

[Joely]

That's when you get to the desire to be desireless, because all desires come from a place of lack.

This conversation reminds me of a passage from Osho:

Turning inwards is not a turning at all. Going inwards is not a going at all. Turning inwards simply means that you have been running after this desire and that ... and you have been coming again and again to frustration. .... Seeing this truth ... you stop. Not that you make any effort to stop. If you make any effort to stop it is again running. You are still desiring - maybe now it is desirelessness that you desire. All journeys are outward journeys, there is no inward journey. ... You are already there, there is no point in going. When going stops, journeying disappears; when desiring is no more clouding your mind, you are in. ... It is not a turning at all, it is simply not going out.

And there is another story from Hale Dwoskin and Lester Levinson about desiring to be desireless. Imagine you fall into a thornbush and you come out covered in thorns, which represent all your desires, all the places where you feel you lack. If you take out one thorn, and use that one thorn to pluck out all the other thorns, that thorn is the desire to be desireless. Once all the other thorns are gone, you drop the final thorn, because you no longer have any need of it.

[Angela]

I don't think desire and lack go hand-in-hand. I think desire can be quite juicy, wonderful and fun.

For instance, I desire some french fries for lunch. Obviously, I lack french fries at this moment, so there is lack. But I'm enjoying my desire for them, and when the arrive (I've ordered them with my sandwich), I intend to enjoy their presence. If for some reason they don't arrive, that won't cause me suffering.

Same thing for qualities that I'm generating. If I see something that would make a difference if I were generating it -- like love or understanding in the middle of an argument with Danger Man -- again, it may be lacking at the instant I recognize it would make a difference, but the very act of generating love and understanding with Danger Man, when I wasn't a moment before, is joyful, creative, juicy and fun.

The Hicks call it "contrast."

[Joely]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't think desire and lack go hand-in-hand. I think desire can be quite juicy, wonderful and fun.

For instance, I desire some french fries for lunch. Obviously, I lack french fries at this moment, so there is lack. But I'm enjoying my desire for them, and when the arrive (I've ordered them with my sandwich), I intend to enjoy their presence. If for some reason they don't arrive, that won't cause me suffering.

Same thing for qualities that I'm generating. If I see something that would make a difference if I were generating it -- like love or understanding in the middle of an argument with Danger Man -- again, it may be lacking at the instant I recognize it would make a difference, but the very act of generating love and understanding with Danger Man, when I wasn't a moment before, is joyful, creative, juicy and fun.

The Hicks call it "contrast."

Oh I think that's positive desire, because desire like that isn't negative. It's saying "I'd like..." but it doesn't matter if it doesn't happen. This was describing a form of desire associated with "I want but I can't/shouldn't have", desire associated with a fundamental lack. In the sense of relationship it would be like desiring a relationship because you don't love yourself enough, and you lack self-love so you need it from outside. Desire when we know we can have if we want gives life its spice and thrill and excitement because you can go get it. This wasn't so much desire as what Lester Levinson called "the agony of lack." It's saying "I want, I need, I desire - but I can't have."

[Angela]

I get what you're saying, and I guess the only criteria I have for distinguishing a "positive" desire from a "negative" one is: Do I feel good on purpose right now? Does thinking the thoughts of this desire generate feeling good?

and now I gotta say I'm having mixed feelings about those french fries!

[Jamie]

Makes sense Joely. I desire, wish I knew how to generate abundance and love in my own life, and in the life of those around around. That would be very nice.

That's my Intention Manifestation, and if you said to me, I can have that, OR, £1,000,000. I know which I'd go for!

Jamie.

p.s. Both would be nice! (I am greedy)

[elisabeth]

Originally Posted by Jamie

Makes sense Joely. I desire, wish I knew how to generate abundance and love in my own life, and in the life of those around around. That would be very nice.

That's my Intention Manifestation, and if you said to me, I can have that, OR, £1,000,000. I know which I'd go for!

Jamie.

p.s. Both would be nice! (I am greedy)

I second that!

Interesting discussion. My take: I find the books vary -- some of them are really very patronizing and try to make you feel "in NEED" of their advice (which is the effect you've mentioned), while others are inspiring, helpful, uplifting, and don't have that effect (I think).

I suppose in order to be commercially viable, self-help books may have to elicit a certain amount of "need" in order to inspire most people to buy them. But still...

[Jamie]

Hi, yes Elisabeth, I think it's a mechanic that's employed with a lot of people and companies who have something to sell you. First instill a sense of lack, or need; then, provide the 'fix' for that created need.

Shocker! What are (some) people like?! Luckily there seems to be a lot of people who are more evolved than that.

I think for me, when I read or listen to something, if it's good, it will resonate with me, I think in my heart. It's like reminding me of something I already know. When I've embodied that wisdom, I can then throw the book away (or maybe give it to someone).

On the generate love thing ... maybe there is no 'how' ... no method or way ... love just 'is' (or so they say).

Jamie.