Jane Roberts and seth, i'm very skeptical

[sean83]

I've just bought this book having seen the amazing reviews it has and also a user on here named cbreeze who claims to have used the concepts to help make herself look younger and lose weight by just using her mind.

And I have been reading through this, the bit that makes me think is the part of the book where it claims you can actually change your physical appearance and heal yourself though thought, imagination and emotion. But I have recently read the bio of the author called Jane Roberts who died of auto immune disease at the age of 55. I think if these concepts were true then why did'nt she use these concepts to heal herself?

The nature of her death and this book seem to contradict itself alot, and makes me very skeptical.

Anyone feel free to enlighten me, but to me I think the seth books may have been a big money scheme.

[Tamra]

It was stated that she was not able to release the necessary limiting beliefs even though much time was spent working on them.

I'm personally a huge fan of the Seth material.

[sean83]

So she did'nt have belief in her own material? don't you think they could of just been saying that?

I think if someone has had first hand contact with the so called energy would atleast have belief in it.

And has this book actually changed your life in anyway?

[RT Wolf]

That's not quite what she said. Perhaps you might like to read up on beliefs:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ering-beliefs/

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ctive-beliefs/

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...t-005-beliefs/

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by sean83

So she did'nt have belief in her own material? don't you think they could of just been saying that?

I think if someone has had first hand contact with the so called energy would atleast have belief in it.

And has this book actually changed your life in anyway?

Keep in mind one thing. If a "being" such as Seth channeled itself through me, I would basically know for sure that there is life after death and that we dont' just disappear after death.

As such, my body dying in this life woudln't necessarily be top priority anymore, right?

It's like I once told my wife that I used to be scared of the idea of a Ghost appearing in front of me. Like if I actualy saw one in real life it might scare the crap out of me. But then I thought about it and what would it really mean? It would mean that life after death exists. So what's the ghost going to do to me? Kill me? If it does, I'll become a ghost and kick his ass!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by impaul99

Keep in mind one thing. If a "being" such as Seth channeled itself through me, I would basically know for sure that there is life after death and that we dont' just disappear after death.

Jane Roberts had plenty of psychic adventures independently of Seth. In other words, even without Seth, she did plenty of astral travelling, visiting other planes of existence, encountering all sorts of non-physical entities ......

Basically she was a magnified version of Erin Pavlina. I don't think that death, in this plane, was of excessive concern to her.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Basically she was a magnified version of Erin Pavlina.

.....hmmmm, maybe Erin is a "possible self" of Jane Roberts! I think she's too young to be a reincarnation, though; they would have a paralleled for a few years. Maybe they did "split" a self during the years Jane was ill and Erin was a baby.

It's kind of funny that she died of an auto-immune disease, don't you think? There is a certain poetry in that -- she basically dismantled her physical incarnation, just like she had built it.

Like the Abraham/Hicks material, I don't think you have to believe the Seth Material was delivered via a supernatural entity to get value out of it.

[impaul99]

Yeah, the one big thing that a lot of people don't realize is that not everyone is afraid of sickness or death. People place different amounts of importance on different things in life.

For example, a person living in Afghanistan who sees people die on an almost daily basis might have absolutely no worry about smoking, because it's something that they probably wont' live long enough to worry about.

The same thing with people who pursue spiritual practicies and understanding. They might not worry about disease or death even because they believe themselves to be eternal.

It's kind of like when I heard people saying that Jesus was fake because if he was really so powerful, he wouldn't have allowed himself to get killed. They don't see the point that if he wasn't worried about dying, because he knew he would continue to exist afterwords and that the body is just a shell, then why would he care?

Another way of saying this is one metaphor I always use for myself. If Jesus were to climb a mountain, how much bread would he pack in his backpack? The answer is none. Why haul around all this bread when you can just make it appear out of thin air when you need it, if you need it. The point being that while a normal mountain climber might put a lot of effort into preventing starvation before starting a climb by planning, calculating and packing a lot of food before doing the climb because they are worried of starving, someone who can materialize it wouldn't worry about it.

I don't know about Jane Roberts personally. I'm not defending her, because I know nothing of her. I have the book, but I haven't read past the first few chapters yet. But I just wanted to point out that death is not a fear of everyone. Whereas I know some people might fight to stay alive no matter what, others who get a disease simply see it as the way things are supposed to be and they make the transition to the next afterlife without worry. It's almost impossible to know why they made that decision.

We all die at some point. Maybe if you made a list of everything you wanted to get done in this life and went out and did it, and you were only 45 by the time it was done, maybe you wouldn't mind dying anymore cuz everything was done. ??? Who knows.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by sean83

So she did'nt have belief in her own material? don't you think they could of just been saying that?

I think if someone has had first hand contact with the so called energy would atleast have belief in it.

And has this book actually changed your life in anyway?

Yeah, she believed in her own material, but have you ever attempted changing your aging and "death programming"??? Not a walk in the park.

If you look around you, everyone and everything dies. It would be nice to turn that piece of programming off, but our belief in aging and death is stronger than a heroin addiction.

Jane dying is no reason to discredit the work.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Angela

Like the Abraham/Hicks material, I don't think you have to believe the Seth Material was delivered via a supernatural entity to get value out of it.

The Seth Material is basically the precursor to the Abraham Hicks material. If you read Jerry & Esther Hicks' story, you'll see that they really got started on all this channelling stuff, through Jerry getting curious about the Seth Material.

[sean83]

The thing that makes me most skeptical, from reading her bio on wikipedia, is that it says she had a long battle against auto immune. I'm thinking if all this material was true and you could put it into practice to healing yourself/changing your body, then she would not have been in a battle against the disease, and could of chose to die gracefully as people have been saying in this thread.

Don't take me wrong the wrong the way i'm not attacking her and her material, I genuinely want to defeat my own skeptism, because it would add to my belief, which I know or supposedly do, is one of the most important things for intention and manifestion.

[dave marshall]

Hi,

this is a common question in groups about jane roberts but if you read the material throughly (took me six years to work through it all!!) you will see that although jane roberts did have many experiences she was unable to alter some fundemental beleifs. Seth did try to help her right up until the time of her death but she had some very strong beliefs from her childhood that she she not alter. Also just because she spoke for seth she was still jane roberts with all the limiting beliefs that she had to work through as we all do.

there are many channels for spiritual material who are themselves unhealthy and unhappy, or have many limting beleifs, just because you have a contact beyond the five senses does not make you immune to the human experience.

I would suggest that you read the books, you could start with The Seth Material itself that explains the beginings of seth and is a great precurser to seth's books

cheers

dave

[Pamela Skuse]

I have not read any of Jane Robert’s books on channelling Seth so I cannot and would not judge her work. But I can say that there are many underpinning reason why Jane Robert’s did not heal her body, and many of these reasons would be beyond humanities perception and comprehension at that time – even now. Yes, her beliefs would have been an important part, but it is not just the only part. Knowledge is one thing and living it is another, but there are many factors to being able to live something effectively.

It is the most difficult thing for a human to do is to heal their own body and especially a healer.

There are many reasons why:

1. The collective consciousness of humanity has to be at a level where these concepts can be supported and applied with ease. When you look at the level of consciousness that humanity was at forty years ago, it could not carry that enlightened energy to the degree that it can now. Because we live in a dualistic world where the majority of individuals think like robots, of where they live in structured patterns within the limited and rigid conformed world, that energy cannot support anything new. It is only when the growing number of humans become more aware and enlightened can a new ‘out of the box’ concept be obtained. Humanity has now moved into a New Energy Era, where consciousness is at a higher level so these new methods can become available. Perhaps we should thank Jane Roberts for the works she did to help raise the awareness, the consciousness of humans.
2. We do not know what her soul destiny seed or birth or karmic contact was all about. Without the full integration of the soul self with the human self, the soul has precedence over the desires and needs of the human. Full integration is only beginning to happen now, because human consciousness has expanded their awareness, perceptions and openness. Perhaps it was a soul choice, and was time for her to move on, for she may have been more helpful to humans on the other side of the veil.
3. In an old energy consciousness, human were unaware of feeling and discerning energy. Because humanities consciousness was at a lower level, there would have been a higher chance of taking on other people’s energy – and it still is. That is: to absorb or buy into and take on the energy structure of others - in service to others. When we take on another’s energy, we think that energy is our own, but because we are loving beings, we take it on for others. We then own that energy (eg. ill health), we believe it, we live it, we act it out and then we prove it in our experiences. Our reality will reinforce that our belief is true – we are ill and it becomes our truth and so the cycles goes round. So why do we take on others energy? It is a belief that we have to serve others. It is a belief that we are unworthy and inferior and we have to suffer and so the list goes on.
4. Lack of self-trust and self-love and denying the self is the biggest problem to why a person cannot heal themselves. Denying the self is a fear-based concept. It goes back to being taught that loving the self is wrong and that we have to be in service to others. Energy reflects from the inner to the outer. We attract to us what we believe we are and if we believe we are not good enough why would we be worthy enough to allow the body to heal?
5. Seeking validation outside of self creates lack of trust and self-love. We doubt ourselves, we doubt our bodies, we think that our bodies have betrayed us - why? Because we belittle ourselves and our bodies most of the time. We want to look like a super model instead! Then we expect another to heal us so we can continue with our negative conditionings. We are saying that our bodies are incapable to heal, that it is not good enough, that another person has better skills and qualifications to do it – this creates a lack of trust and personal responsibility within the self and the body plays that game of allowing another to do the healing - but they can’t.
6. The mind is another problem for self-healing. The mind has been placed on a pedestal over the body and the soul has been squashed or ignored. ‘The mind does not know beyond what it knows’. It is fearful and it doesn’t like change and getting out of its comfort zone, it only dwells on the past and that is what it will bring into the future – past wounds, failures and burdens. The mind will stop the body from healing when it thinks it is better than the body and just because it doesn’t know how to heal, it thinks the body doesn’t either – that it is not good enough that it is only muscle and not brain etc so the body goes along with the mind to play the game of seeking validation outside of self to allow another to try to heal the body. Another can dress a wound, but they can’t heal. Only the Self can heal their own body.
7. Another problem with self-healing is the separation between the human self and the soul self. It is only now that humanity is at a level of consciousness where they can integrate the human and divine to begin to live as a divine human in physical form. Consciousness has placed everything outside of the self to disempower the self and it is only now that somebody could even say the words ‘You Are God Also’. In Jane Robert’s time, that would have been unacceptable to think it let alone to say it. Today, we are just a fraction more open and a little bit more tolerant.
8. Choosing to live life fully. Many human believe that we have to suffer, to work hard, to have just enough to survive. If we don’t want to live life with joy with all our experiences of light and dark why on earth would the body want to stay or even to heal itself?

All these pointers lead to the difficulty at that time for anybody to heal their body and it still is to a degree. I know because I have had to heal my body also. I was diagnosed with breast cancer over 15 months ago, where I refused surgery and alternative care. At the time I also had 2 spider bites that also poisoned my body. I am healthier now than what I was then, and my creativity has blossomed, but I went through some uncomfortable moments when I did not conform to societies standards. I went ‘out of favour’ with those in the medical system and some of my family members when I could no longer appease their fears, controls and agendas. The energy structure can be still very fearful, seductive and manipulative when someone chooses to ‘step out of the box of the norm’. It would have been harder to disconnect from the hypnotic belief structures and mass consciousness overlays forty years ago. Now, due to the expanding New Energy consciousness, change is occurring very rapidly, it is creating turmoil within humanity, it is disrupting these old worn out limited beliefs that many are still holding onto. Chaos is enforcing people to make a change.

If you choose to read more about my work ‘The Who Am I Formula’ and about Pam’s journey please go to At Last

[joelr]

Jane questioned a lot of the material especially in the early books. She also questioned weather Seth was just a part of her subconscious in the early material.

Some of the actual material in the books was given by Jane in front of a group of people some of whom can be contacted like Sue Watkins and Rick Stack. They have written books of their own based on their experiences with Seth's teachings. The Johathan Livingston Seagull guy also attended many Seth readings and will attest that the unusually dense material was given verbatim by Jane.

A lot of concepts that seemed to be unheard of before have come from Seth and any concept found in any modern New Thought book can be originally found in Seths work. Some of the concepts have recently been accepted and proven by modern physics such as changing he past, alternative energies that eminate from consciousness and the likelihood of probable realities.

There are a lot of other subtle clues in the writings that make it stand apart from all other metaphysical writings including the ancient philopophies and the LOA work from the early 1900s.

Jane wasn't much of a marketing machine, did not earn much money and focused much of her energy on channeling the information and holding weekly classes where Seth could speak with others.

I search around at times, to search the other side - the skeptical side of Seth but besides the obvious - people who simply wouldn't accept channeled information - there isn't much.

Ultimately you have to decide if the material is right for you to believe to be true.

[seirwyn]

Originally Posted by dave marshall

Hi,

this is a common question in groups about jane roberts but if you read the material throughly (took me six years to work through it all!!) you will see that although jane roberts did have many experiences she was unable to alter some fundemental beleifs. Seth did try to help her right up until the time of her death but she had some very strong beliefs from her childhood that she she not alter. Also just because she spoke for seth she was still jane roberts with all the limiting beliefs that she had to work through as we all do.

there are many channels for spiritual material who are themselves unhealthy and unhappy, or have many limting beleifs, just because you have a contact beyond the five senses does not make you immune to the human experience.

I would suggest that you read the books, you could start with The Seth Material itself that explains the beginings of seth and is a great precurser to seth's books

cheers

dave

Thats what makes it seem more plausible that it was written by an otherworldly being and isnt just her own ideas. But there are also studies by scientists that show how thought affects the body.
I also know a healer who has some health problem and although he channels Gods healing energy all the time, for some wierd reason he still has this problem. Unless of course he is a fraud but I dont think he is.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by joelr

There are a lot of other subtle clues in the writings that make it stand apart from all other metaphysical writings including the ancient philopophies and the LOA work from the early 1900s.

Would you recommend these books? My only experience with channeling is Abraham, which I love, but I admit I'm not sure if they are really channeled. But they still ring true to me.

But they are very utilitarian, they are about things most people experience and what to do about them. I'm curious about them but don't want to get bogged down into too much metaphysical stuff that you can't "do" anything with.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by cylon

Would you recommend these books? My only experience with channeling is Abraham, which I love, but I admit I'm not sure if they are really channeled. But they still ring true to me.

But they are very utilitarian, they are about things most people experience and what to do about them. I'm curious about them but don't want to get bogged down into too much metaphysical stuff that you can't "do" anything with.

Yes. Nature of Personal Reality is the one best suited for you. It has 16 techniques that are excellent for IM. Some will sound familiar but it's good to read it from the likely original source.

Check out the reviews on Amazon. Definitely "the" book or Bible of reality creating. Seth has a likable but deeeeep personality.

Amazon.com: The Nature of Personal Reality: Specific, Practical Techniques for Solving Everyday Problems and Enriching the Life You Know (Roberts, Jane): Jane Roberts, Robert F. Butts: Books

[cylon]

Cool, I will look into that. I know Seth was the inspiration for the Abraham books, so I'm interested in seeing how this all started.

[Acting Like Godot]

I strongly recommend "The Nature of Personal Reality" for people who already have some knowledge of the LOA, but want to understand better, from a practical perspective, the techniques and methods for manifesting.

For those who are interested in more esoteric questions, like what happens after you die; is there a God; where do non-physical entities come from; how does mind interact with matter; what kind of other realities are there, etc etc

the better book is "The Seth Material".

[Cantando]

I read a lot of the Seth material in the 90's, and was quite hooked on it for a while. Nowadays, I am a bit more skeptical.

I remember reading that Jane Roberts said she had been offered healing by Seth, but turned it down, as she wanted to work it out for herself.

I would be very wary about inviting any entity into one's consciousness, no matter how nice and flattering they appeared to be. Roberts' illness and dwindling strength may have been a result of the covert, vampiristic aspect of such an entity. I suspect many (if not all) chanelled entities/spirit guides are vampires.

They often appear when a person has a vain image of themselves - thinking they are extra special, or different, in some way and have some sort of psychic ability, and then develop an unhealthy curiosity in such matters (e.g. experimenting with an Ouija board).

This very weakness, or flaw, in their psyche is the precise entry point for the entity, which pretends to offer help and guidance, and then, after being invited in, attaches itself to the person in order to feed off them, gradually sapping their energy and strength.

These entities often give a lot of interesting information, in order to dazzle and beguile. Even if most of it is true, it is the 0.1% untruth which makes the whole thing a lie.

That's my theory, anyway!

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I read a lot of the Seth material in the 90's, and was quite hooked on it for a while. Nowadays, I am a bit more skeptical.

I remember reading that Jane Roberts said she had been offered healing by Seth, but turned it down, as she wanted to work it out for herself.

I would be very wary about inviting any entity into one's consciousness, no matter how nice and flattering they appeared to be. Roberts' illness and dwindling strength may have been a result of the covert, vampiristic aspect of such an entity. I suspect many (if not all) chanelled entities/spirit guides are vampires.

They often appear when a person has a vain image of themselves - thinking they are extra special, or different, in some way and have some sort of psychic ability, and then develop an unhealthy curiosity in such matters (e.g. experimenting with an Ouija board).

This very weakness, or flaw, in their psyche is the precise entry point for the entity, which pretends to offer help and guidance, and then, after being invited in, attaches itself to the person in order to feed off them, gradually sapping their energy and strength.

These entities often give a lot of interesting information, in order to dazzle and beguile. Even if most of it is true, it is the 0.1% untruth which makes the whole thing a lie.

That's my theory, anyway!

I have seen that theory before. There has been some mysticism associated with ouija boards but they are a registered trademark toy from the 1800s. If I can use that to contact spirits then I can use my Rubiks Cube just as well.

There isn't any information from Seth that could be harmful. It all comes down to 1 sentence - You Create Your Reality. He says it in a way that's more helpful than most LOA material. He doesn't say to heal your body if you're sick, he says follow whatever methods you believe in to produce a healing.
If you believe in medicine then use it.
I think if he was taking energy from Jane in that way he would have told readers he was available for anyone to channel. He specifically said he would not contact others.

Jane was in her 50's when she passed and a lifetime smoker/drinker. It happens.

[cylon]

Beware Ouija Boards!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Even if most of it is true, it is the 0.1% untruth which makes the whole thing a lie.

That's my theory, anyway!

Wouldn't that make the whole "Cantando" a lie? Is there not 0.1% untruth in you?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Angela

Wouldn't that make the whole "Cantando" a lie? ?

Yes, if I embodied a teaching which appealed to the vanity of others by ascribing God-like powers to them.

[luckyluciano]

Originally Posted by Angela

Wouldn't that make the whole "Cantando" a lie? Is there not 0.1% untruth in you?

Ah Yes. Lovely self-righteousness!

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by joelr

I have seen that theory before. There has been some mysticism associated with ouija boards but they are a registered trademark toy from the 1800s. If I can use that to contact spirits then I can use my Rubiks Cube just as well.

There isn't any information from Seth that could be harmful. It all comes down to 1 sentence - You Create Your Reality. He says it in a way that's more helpful than most LOA material.

From an article by Vincent McCann: New Age Channelling, 2001:

Another area of concern regarding channeling is that many New Age believers are quick to accept almost any message that is given. Every message, no matter how bizarre, or off the wall, is simply accepted as truth. It also seems that no concern is given regarding the actual 'source' of the message. For many, it just seems enough that the entity speaking through their chosen human vessels are actually giving messages.

These entities may claim to be either wise spirit guides, departed ascended masters, or alien entities, but it is rarely ever questioned as to whether they actually are or not. The bottom line is therefore, that those who pursue this practice are open to the very real possibility of falling prey to terrible deception.

Along these lines, Journalist, Joe Fisher, author of Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts spent five years of his life attending channelling sessions and speaking with spirit entities which claimed to be people who had lived prior existences. His research led him to believe that these spirits did indeed exist but that they hid their true identities with lies and deception. The more he realised this, he discovered that other researchers had also reached this same conclusion.

For example, psychic investigator, Sir William Crookes (1832-1919), who attended seances for several years, concluded:
"...I am satisfied that there exist invisible intelligent beings who profess to be spirits of deceased people." (Joe Fisher, Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, p. 264,)

Likewise, Fisher also notes how Andrew Jackson Davis wrote in the book Spirit Mysteries, in 1869:
"It is no difficult thing for certain spirits to impersonate others, to talk and dress up their thoughts like others, which they will do if such resemblance adds anything important to their communications." (Joe Fisher, Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, p. 265)

Douglas Groothius has observed that even some prominent spiritualists themselves have recognised the potential of being deceived by channeled spirits:
"Emanuel Swedenborg, the famous seer of the eighteenth century, was well acquainted with the spirit world, having experienced detailed visions recorded later in book form. Nevertheless, he cautioned those courting the spirits: "When spirits begin to speak with a man, he ought to beware that he believes nothing whatever from them; for they say almost anything. Things are fabricated by them, and they lie... they would tell so many lies and indeed with solemn affirmation that a man would be astonished...if a man listens and believes they press on, and deceive, and seduce." (Samuel M. Warren, A Compendium of the Theological Writings of Emmanuel Swedenborg (New York: Swedenborg Foundation, 1977, p. 618. As quoted in Douglas Groothuis, Revealing the New Age Jesus, Leicester: IVP, 1990, p. 210.)

Good luck with your Rubiks Cube, btw!

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Along these lines, Journalist, Joe Fisher, author of Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts spent five years of his life attending channelling sessions and speaking with spirit entities which claimed to be people who had lived prior existences. His research led him to believe that these spirits did indeed exist but that they hid their true identities with lies and deception. The more he realised this, he discovered that other researchers had also reached this same conclusion.

For example, psychic investigator, Sir William Crookes (1832-1919), who attended seances for several years, concluded:
"...I am satisfied that there exist invisible intelligent beings who profess to be spirits of deceased people." (Joe Fisher, Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, p. 264,)

Likewise, Fisher also notes how Andrew Jackson Davis wrote in the book Spirit Mysteries, in 1869:
"It is no difficult thing for certain spirits to impersonate others, to talk and dress up their thoughts like others, which they will do if such resemblance adds anything important to their communications." (Joe Fisher, Siren Call of Hungry Ghosts, p. 265)

Douglas Groothius has observed that even some prominent spiritualists themselves have recognised the potential of being deceived by channeled spirits:
"Emanuel Swedenborg, the famous seer of the eighteenth century, was well acquainted with the spirit world, having experienced detailed visions recorded later in book form. Nevertheless, he cautioned those courting the spirits: "When spirits begin to speak with a man, he ought to beware that he believes nothing whatever from them; for they say almost anything. Things are fabricated by them, and they lie... they would tell so many lies and indeed with solemn affirmation that a man would be astonished...if a man listens and believes they press on, and deceive, and seduce." (Samuel M. Warren, A Compendium of the Theological Writings of Emmanuel Swedenborg (New York: Swedenborg Foundation, 1977, p. 618. As quoted in Douglas Groothuis, Revealing the New Age Jesus, Leicester: IVP, 1990, p. 210.)

Good luck with your Rubiks Cube, btw!

Well, it's still a matter of what resonates most with each individual.
I like some of Swedenborg's ideas about Christianity but I'm not really impressed with his work. Not in a way where his ideas will have any effect on my beliefs.
Fisher is more of a pop-culture phenomenon. He fell in love with a made up entity being channeled by a woman. Turns out it was a fraud. He can't admit he fell in love with a made up thing so he has to say that the entity was "lying".
Either way, those things and people don't resonate with me at all. While it's possible there could be a mischievous entity I don't have any strong evidence for it.

Again, the message is important also. Seth is teaching LOA. That's about it. To suspect malice I would need some logical model as to why. What would an entity gain and also at the same time have a negative effect on me from LOA? Any answer to that question I have falls into the "probabilistically way more unlikely than Seth simply being a Metaphysical teacher" category. In other words - a conspiracy theory.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Another area of concern regarding channeling is that many New Age believers are quick to accept almost any message that is given. Every message, no matter how bizarre, or off the wall, is simply accepted as truth.

Those are the foolish chaps.

Of course we shouldn't accept any message as true, just because it comes from a "paranormal" or "supernatural" source.

In fact we shouldn't accept any message as true, even if it does not come from a "paranormal" or "supernatural" source.

In fact, Jerry Hicks himself comments that in the pre-Abraham days, he used to play with Oujia boards and all sorts of miscellaneous messages and entities would come through. BUt he gave up all of that, because a lot of it simply didn't make much sense.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Those are the foolish chaps.

Of course we shouldn't accept any message as true, just because it comes from a "paranormal" or "supernatural" source.

In fact we shouldn't accept any message as true, even if it does not come from a "paranormal" or "supernatural" source.

In fact, Jerry Hicks himself comments that in the pre-Abraham days, he used to play with Oujia boards and all sorts of miscellaneous messages and entities would come through. BUt he gave up all of that, because a lot of it simply didn't make much sense.

I appreciate that yourself, Joelr, and others are smart enough to cherry-pick pieces of teaching from various sources and integrate them into something meaningful for you. If it is just a matter of using a bit here and there to enhance your pursuit of 'personal development', then that's fine.

My perspective, however, is to look at the whole corpus of teaching, as an historical phenomenon - from paganism, pantheism, witchcraft, etc. through to the modern age of theosophy, spiritualism and various other occult practices. Some of these beliefs have now morphed, in order to adapt with the current age, and have trickled down into our popular culture and have been adopted by many of us in our daily lives, in the pursuit of personal growth (e.g. LoA). I know you have studied the same.

Our difference is that you believe a lot of it, I don't.

Maybe, it's just me, but I tend to look at who's bearing the message, and ask who it is, and why they are giving it. Maybe, I'm just naturally suspicious!

Jerry Hicks may have stopped using the ouija board a long time ago, but I suspect the entity may have gained entry at that time and is now channelled through his wife, Esther. If you read about how the entity first appeared, it sounds like a classic case of possession.

[Landi Star]

Jane Roberts’ “The Nature of Personal Reality” is what originally got me into LOA//IM back in the mid-70's.

Regarding her young death (& her smoking/drinking), one possible take on it is that those concepts she was channeling were very, very radical for the time. Today they’re becoming more popular and accepted, but back then it may have been difficult for her to fully integrate and live those teachings, especially if her upbringing, conditioning and beliefs were quite conventional.

I tend to believe the authenticity of Roberts channeling Seth even more than accepting that Hicks is always speaking as Abraham when she’s channeling. Jane went through deep, visible changes when Seth came through, including voice & facial changes, etc. (from what I recall reading). Although I love the Abraham-Hicks material, sometimes I’ve wondered if Esther Hicks is occasionally mixing in her own self and views.

But, even if that’s the case, I’ve really connected with the Abe-Hicks books, just like I did with Seth. I think Abe is maybe a little more ‘down to earth’ and easier to get comfortable with than the Seth materials (like for beginners in LOA).

When I got into Seth in the 70’s I had already been meditating for a few years, was very young & with a very open, flexible mind (being an artist helps too), and was in a period of totally breaking away from the conventional and ‘conditioned’ in me…

The Seth material (along with some LOA-based seminars in the 70’s) completely transformed me. After that, I could never go back to seeing myself a victim of any circumstances. The internal “empowerment” and how that grew and changed me over the years was big. And the magical adventure that my life became (at least a lot of the time) has been wonderful (and I never stop learning and “magicking!”)