Jane Roberts and seth, i'm very skeptical

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Probably not; he speaks to the heart.

You can't be a Christian then. You don't believe in the Bible.

The Bible has numerous examples of God communicating very specific messages, to plenty of people. Abraham, Daniel, Moses, Jonah, Elijah, Saul etc etc. He tells them, "Go here .... go there .... Sacrifice your son ... No, don't sacrifice your son, I was just testing you .... Give this message to the Egyptian king, about the first newborns in each family ..... Quick, it's time to flee from Israel ..... Moses, now let's practise changing your rod into a serpent ..... Saul, Saul, why have you forsaken me ..... Hey, Abraham, I really do feel like destroying Sodom, but ok, let's discuss this point further, what do you suggest? .... Hey there Moses, do take off your sandals ... " Etc etc.

One example:

4 When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, "Moses! Moses!"

And Moses said, "Here I am."

5 "Do not come any closer," God said. "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

6 Then he said, "I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob." At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

7 The LORD said, "I have indeed seen the misery of my people in Egypt. I have heard them crying out because of their slave drivers, and I am concerned about their suffering. 8 So I have come down to rescue them from the hand of the Egyptians and to bring them up out of that land into a good and spacious land, a land flowing with milk and honey—the home of the Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.

Etc etc etc. Long, extended chitchat.

So either you believe in the Bible, and accept that God does speak to people .... or you DON'T believe the Bible. Up to you.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

God cannot be channelled.

How come? Miscellaneous lesser spirits can do it, but God lacks this power?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

How come? Miscellaneous lesser spirits can do it, but God lacks this power?

Why should God be at the beck and call of any deluded soul that tried to invoke him? Why would that make him less powerful?

If you wrote a letter to the Queen, asking for a million pounds and received no reply, would that make her less of a Queen?

Anyway, such deluded souls do not invoke God, as they do not truly believe in him; they invoke an impostor, or a figment of their imagination, which appeals to their vanity.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Why should God be at the beck and call of any deluded soul that tried to invoke him?

(1) I don't think just ANYONE can channel God. As a matter of fact, I don't think ANYONE can just channel ANYTHING.

(2) If God spoke through Moses / Elijah / Jesus, I wouldn't exactly say that God is at the "beck and call" of Moses / Elijah / Jesus. Similarly, if the devil spoke though a possessed person, I wouldn't say that the devil was at the "beck and call" of the possessed person.

(3) If He's already watching every single sparrow that falls anywhere in the world, I gather it shouldn't be difficult to always hear a prayer to him.

Why would that make him less powerful?

Because you are saying that assorted spirits have the ability to speak through human beings, but God does not have the ability to speak through human beings.

Anyway, such deluded souls do not invoke God, as they do not truly believe in him; they invoke an impostor, or a figment of their imagination, which appeals to their vanity.

Yup ... They said the same thing about Joan of Arc too, before the Church decided to make her a saint. As a matter of fact, the Pharisees also said the same of Jesus Christ.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

You can't be a Christian then. You don't believe in the Bible.

The Bible has numerous examples of God communicating very specific messages, to plenty of people. Abraham, Daniel, Moses, Jonah, Elijah, Saul etc etc.

As I keep saying, that is not channelling. They are completely different phenomena.

When one prays to God, if the essence of the prayer does not come from the heart, then the words are empty and meaningless. When one receives a reply through the heart, this may then be interpreted through the mind as words.

We have to use words - otherwise, how could we express to others anything about God's truth and message?

Btw, I am not a bible believing fundie, who takes every word in the bible literally.

[Acting Like Godot]

Sorry, but you're fudging.

Let me put it very simply.

Do you believe it is possible:

(a) for God to communicate with a person

(b) for a person to communicate with God

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for God to directly communicate to others, through that person?

Next, do you believe it is possible:

(a) for another kind of non-god non-physical entity to communicate with a person

(b) for a person to communicate with a non-god non-physical entity

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for the non-god non-physical entity to directly communicate to others, through that person?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

When one prays to God

There are numerous instances in the Bible where God communicates directly with people who weren't praying to him. They don't even need to believe in him. Eg Saul.

[Acting Like Godot]

Cantando, can you answer my earlier question?

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Where is it written in the Bible that after Jesus, God will cease all communication with human beings on earth?

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Sorry, but you're fudging.

Let me put it very simply.

Do you believe it is possible:

(a) for God to communicate with a person

(b) for a person to communicate with God

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for God to directly communicate to others, through that person?

Next, do you believe it is possible:

(a) for another kind of non-god non-physical entity to communicate with a person

(b) for a person to communicate with a non-god non-physical entity

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for the non-god non-physical entity to directly communicate to others, through that person?

Is this a discussion, or a cross-examination?
The prosecuting lawyer is in full flow! Ask yourself those questions and search for the answers in your own heart.

You are the one struggling with belief in God, not me!


Vanity of vanities, and all is vanity.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Is this a discussion, or a cross-examination?

I have to break it down nicely for you. I'd just as soon call (a) to (d) "channelling", but you seem very uncomfortable with the word. If you give me your term for it, I'd be quite happy.

1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?

Example 2

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

You are the one struggling with belief in God, not me!

Nonsense. You're the one saying that God does not communicate with humans anymore. And that God in fact ceased communication about 2,000 years ago, after the ascension of Jesus. Were these not your own words:

God revealed the true Gospel through Christ, once and for all. That is the living word. There are no new, extra, correctional, or valid messages

[Acting Like Godot]

Channelling, channelling, channelling:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Nonsense. You're the one saying that God does not communicate with humans anymore. And that God in fact ceased communication about 2,000 years ago, after the ascension of Jesus. Were these not your own words:

The living word is still communicated to the hearts of those willing to accept it. There is no new, valid teaching outside of that.

Unfortunately, there are many who spurn it, corrupt it or otherwise try to change it into a false teaching which leads one away from God. And, if you don't recognize that after all your years of research and delving into the occult, then you surely have been taken in - hook, line and sinker.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Channelling, channelling, channelling:

You are the one who is fudging - using the usual, smoke-and-mirrors trick of trying to blur the distinction between an ego-glorifying practice, such as channelling, with the truth as revealed in the Gospels. You don't fool me for one minute. Get thee behind me, Satan!

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

You are the one who is fudging - using the usual, smoke-and-mirrors trick of trying to blur the distinction between an ego-glorifying practice, such as channelling, with the truth as revealed in the Gospels. You don't fool me for one minute. Get thee behind me, Satan!

Cantando, try to think of this discussion as a good opportunity for you to clarify for yourself your Christian beliefs. There is nothing you need to prove except to yourself.

Calling me the Devil does not make you a better Christian.

It is rather ridiculous of you to spout general platitudes about "the truth as revealed in the Gospels" when I am the one quoting specific verse to you.

I do not believe that God is dead. If He wishes to speak, He will. Just because you say He cannot, does not mean that He cannot.

In my opinion, it is foolish to think that the story of God ends with the last chapter in the Bible. The Bible ends where it ends, only because a bunch of editors in the different Churches got together in the period 1546 - 1672 and decided that the Bible should end where they wanted it to end.

The true story of God goes on and on forever. Among other things, in your own daily life.

If I were the Devil, I'd like to possess you for a while, and get you to slap yourself a couple of times to wake you out of your own silliness. Alas, I'm not the Devil.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

The living word is still communicated to the hearts of those willing to accept it. There is no new, valid teaching outside of that.

Oh excellent. Finally, you admit that God can communicate directly with humans today and is not merely a story in a very old book. Well done, Cantando.

Now if God communicated with you directly, Cantando, (in your heart, if you like) and you immediately told other people what you heard him saying, right as He was saying it, well, then that is what I would call channelling.

You may prefer another word. Whatever.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If He wishes to speak, He will. Just because you say He cannot, does not mean that He cannot.

In my opinion, it is foolish to think that the story of God ends with the last chapter in the Bible. The Bible ends where it ends, only because a bunch of editors in the different Churches got together in the period 1546 - 1672 and decided that the Bible should end where they wanted it to end.

The true story of God goes on and on forever. Among other things, in your own daily life.

Where exactly did I say God cannot speak or communicate?

Who said anything about the story of God ending with the last chapter in the Bible?

Again, you are seeking to distort what I said.

As a physical document, the Bible has a beginning and an end. However, the living word it conveys, has no end:

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away" (Mt 24:35).

‘If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you.’—John xv. 7.

Though spoken by Christ, as a man, 2,000 years ago, those words are as alive today as they were then.

‘Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever. Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by ceremonial foods, which are of no value to those who eat them.’
Hebrews 13:8–9 (NIV)

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

Where exactly did I say God cannot speak or communicate?

1. In Post 54, I said that you can go to your nearest charismatic church and see channelling for yourself.

2. In Post 57, you replied that this is all fake, and all those Christians are just pretending to be true Christians and to be doing God's will.

3. In Post 58, I asked you why you are so sure it's all fake.

4. In Post 59, you answered that it's all fake because God revealed the true Gospel through Christ, once and for all, and there cannot be any new, extra, or valid messages. Therefore "Christians" today who are channelling God / Holy Spirit are just pretending to be true Christians.

So it's quite clear to me that you were saying that God cannot speak or communicate with humans today, that is, there is no possibility that God is actually in communication with any Christian in any charismatic church in any part of the world.

A few posts later, in Post 73, you decided to change your mind about this. You then claimed that actually "the living word is still communicated to the hearts of those willing to accept it. There is no new, valid teaching outside of that".

Personally, this strikes me as very odd. After all, it is not very uncommon to hear a Christian say that he had some very specific problem (eg with his modern particular relationship with a particular modern partner over a particular modern issue eg concerning their particular modern home) and he prayed to God and he received God's answer, God's advice, on his specific problem. But according to you this is not possible. According to you, God is unable to communicate anything other than the "living word" of the Gospels.

So perhaps you have been unclear, or perhaps I have stupidly misunderstood you. Anyway, to avoid any confusion, I had broken down the issue into 4 simple parts, and posed them to you, so as to understand your position. I asked:

Do you think it is possible

(a) for God to communicate with a person

(b) for a person to communicate with God

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for God to directly communicate to others, through that person?

You then proceeded to accuse me of being the Devil.

How intelligent.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

1. In Post 54, I said that you can go to your nearest charismatic church and see channelling for yourself.

2. In Post 57, you replied that this is all fake, and all those Christians are just pretending to be true Christians and to be doing God's will.

3. In Post 58, I asked you why you are so sure it's all fake.

4. In Post 59, you answered that it's all fake because God revealed the true Gospel through Christ, once and for all, and there cannot be any new, extra, or valid messages. Therefore "Christians" today who are channelling God / Holy Spirit are just pretending to be true Christians.

So it's quite clear to me that you were saying that God cannot speak or communicate with humans today, that is, there is no possibility that God is actually in communication with any Christian in any charismatic church in any part of the world...

I said God cannot be channelled. He does not communicate through any 'channel', i.e. through someone who goes into a trance and tries to invoke a spirit. He speaks to a heart which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him. He speaks through the living word (Christ) to those who are willing to listen (from the heart, from the spirit).

He speaks to the poor, the lonely, the downcast, the downtrodden, those who suffer and those who grieve - all those who call out to him from their misery. He makes his home with them - not with the proud, the arrogant, the deceitful, or those who disown him.

[viking4525]

Just a suggestion, but is it worth you both agreeing to disagree?

In my view you are both correct and also incorrect on many points, but the final point is that the individual perception is paramount. You will never convince each other to accept the other point of view, so maybe its worth finishing at this point, or maybe just message each other and then post a final synopsis of your discussion here if its relevant to the thread?

I am saying this because I am feeling your posts between each other are becoming more personal and do not help either of you.

Just my view.

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by viking4525

Just a suggestion, but is it worth you both agreeing to disagree?

In my view you are both correct and also incorrect on many points, but the final point is that the individual perception is paramount. You will never convince each other to accept the other point of view, so maybe its worth finishing at this point, or maybe just message each other and then post a final synopsis of your discussion here if its relevant to the thread?

I am saying this because I am feeling your posts between each other are becoming more personal and do not help either of you.

Just my view.

Agreed. I am quite happy to shut up, so please, no more questions (from anyone) directed at me on this topic. You won't get an answer! May I step down from the dock now and return to my cell?

[Acting Like Godot]

Still fudging? Why so hesitant to answer my simple questions. Here, let me put them in a format that you may feel more at ease with.

Do you believe it is possible:

(a) for God to communicate with a person (who has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(b) for a person to communicate with God (if the person has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships God, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for God to directly communicate to others, through that person? (If those others have a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Still fudging? Why so hesitant to answer my simple questions. Here, let me put them in a format that you may feel more at ease with.

Do you believe it is possible:

If you tell me who your idea of God is, exactly, and what kind of communication you have in mind, I may be able to answer your questions.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Cantando

not with the proud, the arrogant, the deceitful, or those who disown him.

Damn god is stingy.. so much for that whole "forgiveness" idea..

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Cantando

I said God cannot be channelled. He does not communicate through any 'channel', i.e. through someone who goes into a trance and tries to invoke a spirit. He speaks to a heart which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him. He speaks through the living word (Christ) to those who are willing to listen (from the heart, from the spirit).

He speaks to the poor, the lonely, the downcast, the downtrodden, those who suffer and those who grieve - all those who call out to him from their misery. He makes his home with them - not with the proud, the arrogant, the deceitful, or those who disown him.

He also speaks with words that can be heard.

[cylon]

What I could never understand is if God created all mankind, why he specifically chose the Jews to be his favorite. Why not the native americans or the chinese? It just seems so random.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

If you tell me who your idea of God is, exactly, and what kind of communication you have in mind, I may be able to answer your questions.

Your God. Is it possible:

(a) for your God to communicate with a person (who has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(b) for a person to communicate with your God (if the person has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships God, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for your God to directly communicate to others, through that person? (If those others have a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

[Cantando]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Your God. Is it possible:

(a) for your God to communicate with a person (who has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(b) for a person to communicate with your God (if the person has a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships God, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

(c) for that communication to be specific, extended and highly verbal & linguistic in nature

(d) for your God to directly communicate to others, through that person? (If those others have a heart that which is pure and humble and which loves, trusts and worships him, and is willing to listen from the heart, from the spirit)

If by 'communicate', we mean that God impresses his message, from himself onto one's heart or soul, then:

(a) Yes
(b) Yes
(c) Debatable. Even if he can, it doesn't mean that he does. As I've said, the linguistic element could be an interpretation of what is impressed on the heart or soul. The mechanics of how God communicates is a mystery, imo.
(d) Yes

You quoted a long list of verses earlier which showed God speaking to his people. That is not the issue. I never said he did not speak to his people. Maybe, he did speak in a loud, audible voice, in biblical times. I don't know.

When he spoke to Paul (or Saul as he was then) on the road to Damascus, was anyone else present? Was God's voice external and audible, or was it an interior voice he felt, then interpreted through his mind into words?

The cornerstone of your argument is that there is no difference between channelling and God communicating with his people. So, how is it then, that God, on many occasions in the Bible, expressly forbids all forms of necromancy, divination and consulting with spirits.

For example:

Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31

“10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.[1]” Deuteronomy 18:11-12

“Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world. [3]” John 4:1

“10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power. 11 Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil’s schemes. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.[4]” Ephesians 6:10

For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 2 Corinthians 11:13-14

If you engage in channelling, you have turned away from God and have put yourself into the hands of our old pal (you know the one I mean?).

You cannot serve two masters.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

(c) Debatable. Even if he can, it doesn't mean that he does. As I've said, the linguistic element could be an interpretation of what is impressed on the heart or soul.

.....

I never said he did not speak to his people. Maybe, he did speak in a loud, audible voice, in biblical times. I don't know.

Heart; soul; loud, audible voice, whatever. I'm asking simply whether you think God can give a person a specific message (rather than, say, general, vague feelings). Specific message, meaning something like:

"Dear Cantando, this is God. I would like you to be a priest. Come to the ABC church next Wednesday afternoon and you will meet someone with long brown hair, and he will show you the next step that you need to take"

or:

"Dear Jonah, this is God. I order you to go to the city of Nineveh to prophesy against it. It's a wicked place. Go immediately, or I'll send a whale to get you there."

Just like that. So your answer is "I don't know". Well, why didn't you just say so earlier.

The cornerstone of your argument is that there is no difference between channelling and God communicating with his people.

As I have already stated very early in this thread, I do not think that channelling is a good idea for most people. Actually I do not think that most people can channel anything anyway, even if they wanted to. This is regardless of whether they are attempting to channel God, or Satan, or the spirit of their long-deceased grandmother, or whatever.

I *do* think that channelling is a genuine phenomenon. I believe that a very small number of people can do it.

I am sure that SOME people who purport to channel are fakes. I am also sure that SOME people who purport to channel are authentic.

WHAT kind of entity the authentic channeller brings through - is a separate question altogether. I have no doubt that in the long history of mankind, SOME entities that have come through are evil, dangerous, bad etc.

I also have no doubt that in the in the long history of mankind, SOME entities that have come through are neither particularly evil nor dangerous nor bad, and at worst merely spout empty, vacuous nonsense.

And I also believe that in the long history of mankind, SOME entities that have come through are good, kind, positive etc.

I am inclined to think that among all those Christians who are speaking in tongues etc etc, there are some who are not dishonest, delusional or secretly in cahoots with the devil. <---- I know you disagree with this point. You have stated that all those folks in charismatic Christian churches are actually pretending.

So, how is it then, that God, on many occasions in the Bible, expressly forbids all forms of necromancy, divination and consulting with spirits.

For example:

Do not turn to mediums or spiritists; do not seek them out to be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:31

I am not interested in discussing Leviticus. I think some terrible things can be read out of Leviticus. This is the same part of the Bible which says that anyone who has sex without being married ought to be stoned to death.

Personally I think that Jesus was someone Very, Very Special and Extraordinary. In my opinion, everything that he reportedly said, as shown in the Bible, merits careful attention.

I cannot say the same for the rest of the Bible. It's simply a long, extended narrative, out of which 13,000 modern Christian sects have created a multitude of their own modern and not-so-modern interpretations. Some of these Christians probably still think that homosexuals & adulterers ought to be stoned to death; others have developed their quaint little idiosyncrasies such as the Appalachian Mountain rattlesnake Christians; then you have those who think that condoms are evil etc etc.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Cantando

(a) Yes
(b) Yes

Really.

Well now, the next time you pray to God and He actually answers in whatever way, just take care that it wasn't Satan in disguise.

How would you know?