When you have a totla faith in LOA and it fails-- how do you live after that?

[cdn2wheeler]

You know, there's something about these discussions about whether LoA works or not that's always had me wondering as if I'm missing something. But I think I've figured it out, at least partly.

Part of it goes to whether action is required to manifest. True Believers seem to hold to the opinion that asking the universe is enough (provided, of course, you're "vibrating correctly" and never let a doubt cross your mind and have perfect detachment and be completely ego-free and all the rest of the usual mystical caveats... pretty much impossible, unless you've got the mental focus of a Zen monk). I examined this briefly in a post here.

But there was always something else that was bugging me and I've never really been able to put my proverbial finger on it. That is, until the last 10 days or so.

In short, it's the experience of many, many people (myself included) that using the principles of LoA to influence another party to do or be something is a crap shoot. It might work, it might not. It can't be counted on to generate a desired result.

Manifesting "stuff" like a new car or fancy house or something else through the use of LoA (including action... no action = no result, that much is pretty clear) really isn't that different than simply setting a goal or making a plan and carrying it out. Nothing even remotely mystical about it. I want to manifest a jar of olives, I go to the grocery store, find the olives, pay the cashier and now I have a garnish for a martini. Nothing could be easier.

Manifesting something like "being a better person" (however you may define it) also isn't particularly mystical. I want to stop procrastinating, so I develop a plan to do that and carry it out. Perhaps I'll buy a book or go online and avail myself of those sorts of resources. Again, there's nothing about putting in a request to the universe for it; you don't have to meditate or visualize or do anything of the sort. (You certainly can if you wish, but it's not a prerequisite.) You see what you want, you make a plan, you follow through, and your chances of success are reasonably good.

But there's a component of LoA which often gets missed in these sorts of discussions, and that component centres on influencing other people. And, in my experience - and clearly, that of Rockchick26 and Floridagal and plenty of others - that's where LoA seems to have little, if any, impact. Very recently I was peripherally involved in a court case (as a friend of one of the people involved; I wasn't actually directly involved in the case) with a woman who was LoA-ing a positive conclusion. But the end result left her bitterly disappointed. And it's her children that will suffer.

This is similar with what happened with Rockchick26 and Floridagal; they weren't trying to attract "stuff" or some sort of personal improvement, they were trying to influence another party. And it didn't work.

Perhaps LoA isn't intended to influence other people. Perhaps that runs counter to the principles of freewill. Perhaps it's limited to getting goodies like a jar of olives or creating a plan to stop procrastinating. But clearly it can't be relied upon to have any sort of influence on others. It might work, it might not, but it's hardly something you can take to the bank.

[moonrambler]

I think you're right about this. I think when we try to have an IM that directly involves another person, we are running smack up against their own intentions and desires and problems and whatever else is going on with them, which may have nothing whatsoever to do with us.

Now this though: cdn2wheeler said: Manifesting "stuff" like a new car or fancy house or something else through the use of LoA (including action... no action = no result, that much is pretty clear) really isn't that different than simply setting a goal or making a plan and carrying it out. Nothing even remotely mystical about it. I want to manifest a jar of olives, I go to the grocery store, find the olives, pay the cashier and now I have a garnish for a martini. Nothing could be easier.

This is where I start seeing things that aren't readily explainable, and where I get real interested. I see instances where somebody wants a jar of olives, decides to go to the store, and on their way to the car, a neighbor stops by and says somebody gave them a case of jars of olives and hey, do you want a couple jars? I've mentioned this sort of thing elsewhere on this board. Or a person decides he wants some olives, and maybe he doesn't actually get a neighbor giving him olives, but he immediately gets an e-mail from somebody named Olive. That sort of thing.

[mochamajesty]

I have never read anywhere that says that we are supposed to use LOA/IM to control or influence anyone else. I am new to consciously applying this, of course, and I know that I have not studied everything. Where are you guys getting this idea?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by mochamajesty

I have never read anywhere that says that we are supposed to use LOA/IM to control or influence anyone else. I am new to consciously applying this, of course, and I know that I have not studied everything. Where are you guys getting this idea?

People start getting this idea because they want to use LoA to attract one specific person as a partner, or to have a specific experience with one specific person, that sort of thing. Not necessarily to control or influence, but to attract a person or an experience with a person. What seems to happen though, is someone is then expecting that person to tune into his/her own particular "vibration" or whatever you want to call it, without taking into account that person may have a whole different "vibration" and intentions and desire and everything else . . . all the aspects that don't come with manifesting a new car or a jar of olives, for instance.

This actually is where I think manifesting for winning the lottery falls apart too. Not so much our attitudes about getting lots of money all of a sudden, but we're up against how many millions of other people going after the exact same thing.

[Acting Like Godot]

My current answer is -

you can use the LOA to influence other specific people, but only if they don't hold inconsistent thoughts.

1st Example - You would like John Smith to do X. But John Smith strongly wants to do Y instead. You cannot "LOA" him into choosing to do X.

2nd Example - You would like John Smith to do X. John Smith is ambivalent about doing X or Y, and doesn't mind doing either of them. In such a case, it is possible for you to "LOA" him into doing X (or Y, if that is what you intend).

The difficulty of using LOA on other people is that each person is at the centre of his own reality. He is the person who is most present in his own reality; who interacts the most with his own reality; and supplies the most thought concerning his own reality; and who has been forming beliefs and thoughts about his own reality, since the day he was born.

Whereas you are, at most, someone who talks to him a few hours a day, and thinks about him a few hours a day. Thus you have a very low probability of offering enough thought to make a specific change in his reality, where his current thought patterns are already set against such a change.

3rd example - Consider the often-discussed situation where a LOA practitioner wants to use LOA to attract a partner. As all the more-experienced LOA people here already know, the best way to do this is to focus on attracting a generic person with the characteristics you desire (eg "tall, handsome, generous, with a sense of humour and plays golf"), rather than a specific person (say, John Smith) even though John Smith may happen to be tall, handsome, generous, with a sense of humour and a keen golfer).

The simple reason is that it is much more probable that there is someone in the universe who meets your criteria AND whose own thoughts are compatible (or at least not inconsistent) with having a relationship with someone like you;

than it is probable that John Smith, who meets these criteria, happens to have thoughts which are compatible (or at least not inconsistent) with having a relationship with someone like you.

The above discussion can actually be seen as an offshoot from the broader LOA principle of focusing on the outcome, not the "how". For example, if you want money, focus on money, and leave the "how" to the universe. If you start dictating specifically how the money is to come, you're choking off a range of other possibilities by which the universe could have orchestrated the money to come to you

[Angela]

I agree with ALG. Plus, even the most skillful practioners of LoA, like ALG, who are manifesting *stuff* -- external material goods and circumstances -- usually must allow: that is, time probably will pass before fruition, and that's why I think using the LoA to manifest ways of being -- internal circumstances -- is far more powerful and fun. You can instantly manifest any inspiring way of being right now -- why wait?

For instance, you want the perfect partner to be attracted to you? Generate being the perfect partner. I don't mean "perfect" as in flawless, I mean be the mate you want, and love your own life perfectly -- exactly as it is and exactly as it is not. Be the warm arms, be the qualities you dream of finding in another person. Be those things for yourself and for the world, and not only are you cutting out the middle man of external circumstance, you're also creating yourself as the person around whom what and who you want will naturally fall into orbit. It feels good to be what you want.

Probably the single most important quality I've learned in generating relationships I love is Freedom. If you require another person to relate to you in a certain way or you'll be disappointed, angry, or upset, you are sure not generating freedom! And no wonder people would pull away from you if they're getting that vibe. As a matter of fact, if you have "total faith" in anything that upsets you if it falls apart, you're generating a space of no freedom -- that is, you're holding reality hostage to your own desired way of being. Let the hostage go! Feel good on purpose.

[Rockchick26]

I went into this fully aware that it isnt a guarantee that it would work,since he is a specific person and not a generic idea of love. So i dug my own grave,i guess. I just was inspired by the stories of people that DID have this work for them,and im a sucker for signs so i took it as a sign and i kept the faith. I know that this guy is looking for love and he said he wants someone who can help him learn how to love again. And thats been like my number one wish,that i could do that for someone. So i felt like i was the perfect one for him. Maybe he has been vibrating a lack of love so maybe that was it too. I guess i'll just have to resort to old fashioned techniques LOL

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

Part of it goes to whether action is required to manifest. True Believers seem to hold to the opinion that asking the universe is enough

LOL, Cdn2wheeler, you must think I'm an incredibly lazy bastard.

But the truth is - there have been many times the universe moved faster than I could take action. My intention got fulfilled before I could actually lift a finger to do anything.

Now, watch closely:

Conference Speaking Opportunity Arrives Out of the Blue

On 22 October 2006, I behave like a normal, action-oriented, PD person. I draw up an action plan! I wrote in my blog: "I do however need to take some action which will bolster my scholarship chances ..... Actions that I can take, to bolster my scholarship chances ..... 3. Find opportunities to speak at conferences & seminars."

Note that up to that point, I had never spoken at any industry conferences or seminars. I had no reputation as such a speaker; I didn't know any conference organisers personally; I had no specific ideas of what conference I could speak at, or when or where the next one would be held etc.

Naturally these are all things which I can solve, by taking action. And I would have gotten around to doing it too. Once I get the time ....

But the universe moved faster than me again! Eight days later, I was forced to become a speaker at an international conference with participants from half a dozen different countries! No backing out.

Free Book Arrives Out of the Blue

Like a normal, action-oriented PD guy, I make 15 New Year's resolutions on 27 December 2007. And I would have taken action on them too! Click on link to see Project No. 13: "... my family to cultivate a healthy lifestyle, in terms of exercise, nutrition etc."

Problem is that I don't understand very much about nutrition at all. I kept thinking that I should buy a book about nutrition to read up. Guess what? A few days later, I actually took action and I went to the bookstore and I bought a book that cost me $41. Please congratulate me for taking action.

But guess what else? I need not have done that. Because on the very day that I went out to buy that book, the universe twisted and turned, and sent me a completely free book, yes, on nutrition, anyway! A very good one, which i later discovered was recommended by Mrs Erin Pavlina herself. Anyway, read my account here, of how the universe sent me the free book.

Business Contact Arrives Out of the Blue

I even do manifesting at lunchtime on workdays. I go off to a little park and have a sandwich lunch by myself and then I close my eyes and I actively daydream about outcomes I'd like to see.

Now you're going to call me an incredibly lazy bastard again, and why don't I get up off my ass, and go take some action, go do some real work, it's a work day, for goodness sakes ....

But you see, the lunchtime daydreaming makes me highly efficient. The universe just starts taking action by itself, straight after my lunchtime daydreaming.

Read this incident. I started daydreaming about a little new work idea; and to make it work, I would need a little help; and the person who could help was a guy, S, whom I hadn't seen even once for the past three years. But I could try to get in touch with him, and I definitely had that intention.

Once I find the time to get around to tracking the guy down, wherever he is ....

Finished my lunchtime daydreaming, went back to office, did work, left the office in the evening, entered the lift, went down to the ground floor. The lift door opens, and I walk right into ..... Make a guess.

Money Arrives out of the Blue

Money arrives out of the blue, no action required, yadda yadda yadda, I've told these stories before, you must have read some of them.

Other Miscellaneous Examples

I have numerous other examples. Many are recorded on my blog, and many others are not (the frequency and rapidity with which fortunate synchronicities occur in my life defies my ability to record all of them). I know I am not crazy ..... my wife thought I was, but when she started trying out the LOA, all sorts of stuff happened to her too ....

[Angela]

Good luck, Rockchick (and Floridagal!) It hurts, I know. You have a world full of men in front of you though, and the possibility for fulfilling love is right there inside you.

Best wishes.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

Good luck, Rockchick (and Floridagal!) It hurts, I know. You have a world full of men in front of you though, and the possibility for fulfilling love is right there inside you.

Best wishes.

Thanks! It just doesnt feel right to me to give up on something that i know is possible. Everyone says "but you have all these other guys right in front of you!" which is true but i still dont see why it should be any harder to get this guy than those guys! The universe sees no difference between a dollar and a million dollars,nor should it see a difference between one guy and any other guy,that's all. I dont like thinking something is impossible. And i also dont like abandoning hope in something when i don't already have a better option in plain view. This seems like a good attitude to have but i'm sure it's sabotaging all my efforts. There must be a very fine line between faith and freedom.

[Angela]

(we've got a couple of threads going!)

Well, one way you might want to transform your thinking (if you want to feel better) is to let go of the idea that you can *get* any guy, this or any other. If you *get* a guy, then you're stuck trying to *keep* him -- the idea that you can get, keep, or lose a man is nuthin' but illusion.

I'm suggesting you approach relationship as something to generate and to give away, as opposed to consider that you need to *get* someone or something. You might want to try being the source of the love you want, and let go of trying to find it or get it. It's amazing what is drawn to you when you generate it yourself!

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

LOL, Cdn2wheeler, you must think I'm an incredibly lazy bastard.

First of all, I don't think you're lazy at all. Not exactly sure how you got that idea, but it was never my intention (there's that word again) to imply such a thing.

All I'm suggesting is that using LoA to influence another person doesn't seem to be bearing fruit, at least in the case of my friend (you already know the story there), Rockchick and Floridagal. I think, ALG, that you've seen this too, in your brief outline where you wrote,

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

1st Example - You would like John Smith to do X. But John Smith strongly wants to do Y instead. You cannot "LOA" him into choosing to do X.

2nd Example - You would like John Smith to do X. John Smith is ambivalent about doing X or Y, and doesn't mind doing either of them. In such a case, it is possible for you to "LOA" him into doing X (or Y, if that is what you intend).

Granted, I get the sense that the John Smith examples are hypothetical, but I think I understand what you mean.

Angela, as always, makes a good point when she writes:

Originally Posted by Angela

For instance, you want the perfect partner to be attracted to you? Generate being the perfect partner. I don't mean "perfect" as in flawless, I mean be the mate you want, and love your own life perfectly -- exactly as it is and exactly as it is not. Be the warm arms, be the qualities you dream of finding in another person. Be those things for yourself and for the world, and not only are you cutting out the middle man of external circumstance, you're also creating yourself as the person around whom what and who you want will naturally fall into orbit. It feels good to be what you want.

Wise words, to be sure. But I don't think it's even remotely related to LoA, it's simply being a better person. There's no "asking the universe" or anything of the sort involved here, it's simply generating a more positive mind-set about one's self. As that evolves, people will notice.

[Acting Like Godot]

Hi Rockchick

I made a PDF file and was trying to create a sub-page and upload it on my blog for you. But I'm having some technical problems.

The PDF file is basically 9 pages that I've scanned from a book. It's a self-hypnotic script which you can read out, make into a tape recording and play back to yourself. The topic, of course, is how to attract the love of your life (oh, this script provides for a specific person to be attracted too).

If you follow the instructions as you hear them, you will be guided into a hypnotic state and then into various visualisations to help you get the person /relationship you desire. It's a fairly long exercise and works on a whole lot of important things in a relationship, including passion, love, loyalty, warmth, compatibility, integrity etc.

It also is a two-way exercise, meaning that you gotta give all these things to your desired partner, if you expect to get them from your partner.

If you think this script could be helpful to you and you want to give it a shot, email me at actinglikegodot@gmail.com and I'll email the PDF to you.

The book is "Self-Hypnosis For A Better Life" by William Hewitt.

If making the tape recording is too much of a bother for you, you can just read the script, memorise the key points, and do it yourself directly without a tape recording. Personally I don't make any recordings myself.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Angela

(we've got a couple of threads going!)

Well, one way you might want to transform your thinking (if you want to feel better) is to let go of the idea that you can *get* any guy, this or any other. If you *get* a guy, then you're stuck trying to *keep* him -- the idea that you can get, keep, or lose a man is nuthin' but illusion.

I'm suggesting you approach relationship as something to generate and to give away, as opposed to consider that you need to *get* someone or something. You might want to try being the source of the love you want, and let go of trying to find it or get it. It's amazing what is drawn to you when you generate it yourself!

I understand what youre saying...I guess the phrase "get a guy" sounds too materialistic and self centered,but i could word it "attract a relationship" and it means the same thing to me,just bad choice of words. I am not in this for the hunt and the thrill of it,i WANT a true loving lasting meaningful relationship.
I was also wondering,how can this happen for other people,without even using LoA? I know people who are selfish,immature,mentally and emotionally unstable,yet they can still attract relationships. I even had a relationship once without trying to attract one into my life,so i dont get why suddenly now i have to change in order to attract one. If it worked once,why cant it work again? And why do some people never hear of LoA yet relationships just fall into their laps even though they are emotionally immature and selfish?

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

But I don't think it's even remotely related to LoA, it's simply being a better person. There's no "asking the universe" or anything of the sort involved here, it's simply generating a more positive mind-set about one's self.

Intellectually, almost all of us know what we should do to become "a better person", in nearly all areas of our lives.

Whether you can actually do those things is another question altogether. And if you fail, it isn't necessarily for lack of trying.

For example, many people try very hard to quit smoking; or work more productively; or stop overspending; or to be kinder and patient with their kids etc etc. And many people fail.

They fail because of the nature of the human mind. Our minds can almost never stop creating patterns. The patterns are created endlessly. Some of those patterns work to our advantage - for example, positive beliefs, habits and attitudes - and some of them do not.

These patterns shape the way we think, speak and act, and also the events and circumstances of our lives. Ultimately these patterns create our entire reality. The stronger a pattern, the greater its influence is, on our reality.

You can try to challenge a pattern directly, with brute force and determination. You may even succeed. But if the pattern is too strong, you will simply fail. Addictions are a prime example. But in fact we have formed patterns about everything in our lives - whether it's money, career, family, relationships, hobbies, friends, society, food, sleep, homes, material possessions, community, health, illness, sex, our attitudes about politics, science, the economy, the weather, religion, the government etc etc.

Working with the LOA (in whatever form), we gain awareness about our patterns. We begin to cultivate skill and ability to directly deal with our patterns. With practice, we are able to create, nurture, protect and strengthen positive patterns. We are also able to weaken, override, confuse and simply sidestep our negative patterns.

And as we learn to control and direct our thoughts in a radically different way, we can even make a little paranormal magic now and then. .

But the point is - even becoming a better person, without any attempt to influence "external" reality, is not a simple matter of "doing" the right things. If it were, it should be remarkably easy to quit smoking - just stop sticking that damn thing in your mouth.

But it's not that easy, is it?

The pattern will get ya. Unconsciously, you find yourself reaching for that lighter and cigarette.

Until you learn to tweak your patterns - whether with NLP, hypnosis, visualisation, affirmations, prayer, meditation, vision boards, or Abraham's 22 processes, Haanel's Master Key or whatever -

the pattern will always get you.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Hi Rockchick

I made a PDF file and was trying to create a sub-page and upload it on my blog for you. But I'm having some technical problems.

The PDF file is basically 9 pages that I've scanned from a book. It's a self-hypnotic script which you can read out, make into a tape recording and play back to yourself. The topic, of course, is how to attract the love of your life (oh, this script provides for a specific person to be attracted too).

If you follow the instructions as you hear them, you will be guided into a hypnotic state and then into various visualisations to help you get the person /relationship you desire. It's a fairly long exercise and works on a whole lot of important things in a relationship, including passion, love, loyalty, warmth, compatibility, integrity etc.

It also is a two-way exercise, meaning that you gotta give all these things to your desired partner, if you expect to get them from your partner.

If you think this script could be helpful to you and you want to give it a shot, email me at actinglikegodot@gmail.com and I'll email the PDF to you.

The book is "Self-Hypnosis For A Better Life" by William Hewitt.

If making the tape recording is too much of a bother for you, you can just read the script, memorise the key points, and do it yourself directly without a tape recording. Personally I don't make any recordings myself.

Unfortunately i'm on a webtv so i cant open PDF files,i can only read text that has been cut,copied and pasted onto an email or a posting. I actually have a self hypnosis cd by Dick Sutphen called "Secure and Confident",i had another one that was about attracting love but i cant find it right now...but these never worked for me. You're supposed to listen to them while you fall asleep,but the problem with me was i can't fall asleep while listening to anything. Do you think this one you have would work for me? I'd give it a shot,i guess.

[Rockchick26]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Intellectually, almost all of us know what we should do to become "a better person", in nearly all areas of our lives.

Whether you can actually do those things is another question altogether. And if you fail, it isn't necessarily for lack of trying.

For example, many people try very hard to quit smoking; or work more productively; or stop overspending; or to be kinder and patient with their kids etc etc. And many people fail.

They fail because of the nature of the human mind. Our minds can almost never stop creating patterns. The patterns are created endlessly. Some of those patterns work to our advantage - for example, positive beliefs, habits and attitudes - and some of them do not.

These patterns shape the way we think, speak and act, and also the events and circumstances of our lives. Ultimately these patterns create our entire reality. The stronger a pattern, the greater its influence is, on our reality.

You can try to challenge a pattern directly, with brute force and determination. You may even succeed. But if the pattern is too strong, you will simply fail. Addictions are a prime example. But in fact we have formed patterns about everything in our lives - whether it's money, career, family, relationships, hobbies, friends, society, food, sleep, homes, material possessions, community, health, illness, sex, our attitudes about politics, science, the economy, the weather, religion, the government etc etc.

Working with the LOA (in whatever form), we gain awareness about our patterns. We begin to cultivate skill and ability to directly deal with our patterns. With practice, we are able to create, nurture, protect and strengthen positive patterns. We are also able to weaken, override, confuse and simply sidestep our negative patterns.

And as we learn to control and direct our thoughts in a radically different way, we can even make a little paranormal magic now and then. .

But the point is - even becoming a better person, without any attempt to influence "external" reality, is not a simple matter of "doing" the right things. If it were, it should be remarkably easy to quit smoking - just stop sticking that damn thing in your mouth.

But it's not that easy, is it?

The pattern will get ya. Unconsciously, you find yourself reaching for that lighter and cigarette.

Until you learn to tweak your patterns - whether with NLP, hypnosis, visualisation, affirmations, prayer, meditation, vision boards, or Abraham's 22 processes, Haanel's Master Key or whatever -

the pattern will always get you.

This is so true! In every aspect of life. This is shaping up to be much harder than i anticipated. That's why i didnt like The Secret because it makes it sound too easy,sit back and dream and it will come true. So then I've tried Abrahams's 22 processes,visualization,meditation and prayer and apparently my patterns are still too strong. I wonder if i'll ever get the hang of this :-(