Questions on the LoA

[Tim Brownson]

Here’s my deal with the LoA. Firstly let me say that I do believe that there is something in it, I just don’t believe anybody knows how to use it to their own ends…..yet. I heard Michelle Whitedove on Sirius say today that absolutely nothing no matter how big or small cannot be manifested. Well yeh ok and I don’t mean to be flippant here but does that mean I can manifest Pluto into my backyard?

I loved The Secret and I also hated it. I loved it because it opened peoples minds to new possibilities and I can now talk to clients about stuff like meditation that was much more difficult 2 or so years ago. I also love to hear about people thinking more positively about stuff. I hated it because I now have to deal with the occasional client that says, “I’ve seen The Secret and all this crap in my life is my fault” Maybe that’s a good thing if it creates action but not in somebody that now feels suicidal.

I want to ask some extreme questions not from a position of being dismissive but from one of wanting to understand other people’s opinions. I have read a fair bit of the Esther and Jerry Hicks stuff and they are truly amazing but I have to say I’m not convinced.

Last summer 2 young boys died from an amoeba infection in their brain after swimming in a lake here in Orlando. Did they manifest that?

When I am absolutely sure that when the doorbell goes that I know who it is. To the extent that I am shocked by being wrong. How come I didn’t manifest the person that I thought it was going to be if I was absolutely sure. Ok, bad example because another person is involved. What if I know where I left my wallet and it’s not there. I know with so much certainty that I go back several times and then it turns up in the fridge! And yeh, I gave it the full 68 seconds ;-)

Why have some really negative and miserable people that worry constantly gone on to live long and very prosperous lives? I know some very wealthy people that are constantly worrying about losing money. Why don’t they? Is the LoA playing a game and making them miserable instead of taking their money away?

Why don’t hypochondriacs all die young?

Why can’t a great manifester prove it to the world by stepping off a tall building and manifesting a safe landing? Or maybe winning lotto 2 weeks on the trot? I saw a post by a person below that said she was scary good at this. Really??? Why not manifest an end to violence in her hometown or even on broader scale. Again I know it involves others so why not manifest all guns to stop working or food to arrive to feed the hungry?

I am open to this, I’d love to be convinced I really would and I respect the opinions of people that believe in it because on the whole I think it opens up some interesting debate, but I also think it has created devotees that seem to refuse to question the obvious ambiguities by simply saying the LoA will deal with it.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

Last summer 2 young boys died from an amoeba infection in their brain after swimming in a lake here in Orlando. Did they manifest that?

First seek to understand your position on Subjective Reality.

From one point of view, if you believe in Subjective Reality then it means that you manifested those boys dieing from the amoeba infection in their brains. Meaning, there is no boys, there is no infection, there is no amoeba, there's just you and your belief of "Yeah, but random things happen to random people." and "People exist." etc.

Right now, your questions are kind of like "Does X + Y + Z + P * 8 = 3884?"

And you haven't yet sorted out what you believe X, Y, Z, P etc. to equal.

Kind of hard to explain, but it's good you're on the path.

I had the exact same questions.

[Jennihul]

Every beginner in LOA asks the same doubting questions. I suggest using the search feature here on the forum and doing a little studying. These questions have been answered very eloquently many times since The Secret came out.

But for people who really think the LOA is a giant catalog of experiences and stuff, including Pluto in your backyard...you may be disappointed.

Jennifer

[Tim Brownson]

Well Jenni, you see I thought this was a forum for asking questions, not one for somebody asking a question once and then referring everybody else back to the same answer. I had a look using the search facility and there is a lot of stuff.

You answer sounded incredibly patronizing although I admit it may not have been written with that intention and if it wasn't, I apologize.

I have read stuff on the LoA as I said and sometimes the answers I get tend to be vague, and in some cases contradictory. I hear Esther Hicks saying you only need to tell the universe once what you need and then I hear a personal hero of mine Wayne Dyer saying you should tell it every day. It's almost 18 months since I saw the Secret but I can remember thinking at the time that there were a number of anomalies and certainly contradictions with The Teachings of Abraham. Why?

The thing that really niggles me is the people on both extremes. Those that can't stand for it to be criticized and those that say it must be nonsense. The real fact is (in my mind anyway) is that nobody really knows. Esther Hicks may indeed be a conduit for Abraham but she may also be a fantastic con artist or somebody suffering from mental illness that doesn't even know it.

I think it’s a fascinating subject that deserves more open debate but I also think it’s getting polarized by the ‘extremists’ at either end that look down their noses at people with opposing opinions as though they were morons that just weren’t quite enlightened enough to ‘get it’. Twas ever thus.

[RT Wolf]

Contradictions is a fairly simple thing. The first is that different things work for different people. For example, affirmations don't really do much for me, but meditation works really well. I prefer the Deepak Chopra style manifestation and getting myself into a state of peace and acceptance rather than intense desire, etc.

As ALG likes to say, there's a few principles that are in common and you can just pick whichever method works for you. So, go ahead and test the various methods and see what happens. Although, for the beginning I would suggest going with daily meditation, especially in the morning.

The other thing is that if Subjective Reality is indeed the most accurate model for describing the universe, then each of those people are right, simply because they believe they are. The rest of your questions can be interpreted in two ways, either through the SR model or through the regular semi-objective model.

The other thing (that again, ALG likes to say) is that you can have total control over your reality if you have total control over your thoughts. Considering the estimate that human beings have somewhere in the order of 50,000 thoughts a day, its not surprising that you would manifest things in an unexpected way.

How do you know that hypochondriacs don't all die young? If I recall correctly, there have been studies suggesting a link between optimism and happiness and longevity.

About the food and violence bit, how do you know its not happening already? There's a talk in TED by Stephen Pinker who points out that fewer people are dying (as a percentage of population, which is more significant) than ever before. There have been fewer genocides and fewer wars. Hans Rosling also has a talk on TED and he very entertainingly shows that poeple all over the world are living longer, are richer and enjoying higher levels of wealth than ever before. Whether that is related to people's intentions or not is a different matter.

Mother Teresa seems to have understand the rules of IM, if I recall one story accurately. Someone asked her to come march against a war, and she said that she would not, and that she would march for peace, but not against a war.

Good questions, however I'll tell you this: I've ignored all of those sorts of questions and been doing quite decently at IM. Just test it for yourself to convince yourself. The main thing that I hear when you speak is the question of responsibility and consequences, so that might be a topic for you to consider going forward.

I just wrote a blog entry on this sort of topic:
Mind-Manual » Why some things just don’t matter

Main Points:

* We love to debate minutiae because of two critical cognitive errors: “All or nothing” thinking and improper weighting of factors.
* Think about factors as percentages contributing to an effect. I might go out to buy some ice cream (effect), because its hot out (80%), and because someone else was willing to come with me (the last 20%).

...

I’ve been noticing this sort of thing over at the IM forums at Steve Pavlina.com. People are curious about the various aspects of IM, which I whole-heartedly applaud, however it seems that some people are simple poking around, trying to learn more about exceptions or special cases which don’t really apply to them, instead of testing the thing for themselves and seeing if it works or not.

So, my recommendation is to put these quesitnos aside for now (you'll prolly find these answers popping up anyhoo), and focus on trying to apply IM for yourself. As I've said before, I haven't found anything in IM that isn't a good idea for reasons other than IM, except for the belief that IM works, which you don't really need, just need an open mind which you seem to have.

Hope that answers some of your questions, good luck finding the answers. I hope that this has been helpful and I haven't been too wrong on any point, I just woke up. Happy manifesting!

[dancer]

I agree that there is a lot of vague stuff out there and have come to the conclusion that LOA is not something that comes with instructions that works for everyone across the board. This is primarily because we all have different beliefs. If LOA is not working then there is probably a belief that counter acts with the intention.

Our beliefs, good and bad, deem what good and bad experiences we have in life. It is through our beliefs that we make choices. We have a general belief that death is bad, so when someone dies we see it as negative. What if death is not bad? How we view/judge it is though our beliefs.

Hypochondriacs worked out that they get attention when they are sick, so they create symptoms/illnesses, it is attention they are after, not death.

You intend to walk out your front door and find $1000 on the step, do you believe this is possible? Or are you asking for proof? The proof is in what you believe. If your premise is that it is impossible, then do you think it is going to happen? Instead of questioning whether or not LOA works, I think we should be questioning our beliefs.

A lot of us are trying to fix things in our life that are not working with LOA. But, what belief brought us to the situation in the first place? Some of us may ask for our soul mate and he or she is not showing up. We come to this site and ask why LOA is not working for us, where is my soul mate, I’ve done everything I’m supposed to do, LOA is not working for me? What if I believe I am not loveable? What if I believe all men are jerks? The list goes on….

Cylon finds money on the street because he believes he can. ALG has success after success because he believes he can. Paul increases his wealth and finds his dream house because he believes he can. Angela is in a perfect relationship because she believes it is possible.. I cannot say why Floridagal didn’t get to go home for Christmas because I’m not privy to her beliefs.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by dancer

A lot of us are trying to fix things in our life that are not working with LOA. But, what belief brought us to the situation in the first place? Some of us may ask for our soul mate and he or she is not showing up. We come to this site and ask why LOA is not working for us, where is my soul mate, I’ve done everything I’m supposed to do, LOA is not working for me? What if I believe I am not loveable? What if I believe all men are jerks?

Sort of like, the reason you don't have that stuff to begin with is not because you didn't "manifest it" yet, but because you had a belief that pushed something desired away that would have happened if not for your own resistance. A belief in LOA is not necessary.... but a belief that you can have what you want and that having what you want "is the right thing" is.

A "soul mate" is a good example because the idea that you could find someone to care about is not so "out there" for most people.... you see people together happy, you want that for yourself, you figure "if they can't have it, why not me? That's normal. I'll have that too" and it finds it's way into your life, with or without any sort of belief in LOA. There was no resistance. You wanted something, it made you happy to think of it, it shows up. Working "really hard" at LOA is not necessary.

My head just exploded.

[Jennihul]

I was not intending to be patronizing. There is a TON of great stuff on this forum with regard to the LOA. The search feature is sadly underused on ALL the forums that I play around on.

The problem with not using the search feature and having different people ask the same questions over and over, daily here, is that the people who may happen to have the most knowledge on a topic, or may even be professionals in a certain facet of business or metaphysics, get tired of repeatedly answering the same questions and as a result you may not get the rich variety of answers you were hoping for. Just my 2 cents.

Jennifer

[Acting Like Godot]

I kinda agree with jennihul (the part about answering the same questions again and again) but anyway I will take a quick stab at the questions.

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

Well yeh ok and I don’t mean to be flippant here but does that mean I can manifest Pluto into my backyard?

Probably not. Among other things, the appearance of Pluto in your backyard would violate many of your current beliefs about how your reality works. You see, you always have to work within the limits of your current belief system (or you have to work at expanding those limits).

If currently you don't even believe that you could, say, make beautiful flowers spontaneously start blooming in your backyward through the power of your own thoughts, well then, I think you are a looooong way off from making Pluto do an appearance in your backyard.

I hated it because I now have to deal with the occasional client that says, “I’ve seen The Secret and all this crap in my life is my fault”

As I have said many times before, this blame mentality arises only out of a misunderstanding of how the LOA works. While the "crap" in your life is caused by your own thoughts, the "crap" in your life is your "fault" (or moral culpability) only to the extent that:

(1) you are able to control your thoughts; and
(2) you failed to do so.

For example, if a toddler falls down while trying to learn to walk, the event is caused by himself. But we do not say that he is "at fault". He has not yet learned enough bodily coordination, balance etc.

In the same way, if crap happens in your life, it is caused by you, but it is generally not your "fault" (that is, there is no need to hate yourself). You simply had limited ability to control your thoughts.

Last summer 2 young boys died from an amoeba infection in their brain after swimming in a lake here in Orlando. Did they manifest that?

Short answer is yes, which looks terribly drastic until you understand Abraham Hick's perspective on death. That perspective says that you are pretty much eternal and have already lived and died numerous times; and death looks scary or unpleasant because from where we currently are, we can't (generally) recall that.

Why have some really negative and miserable people that worry constantly gone on to live long and very prosperous lives? I know some very wealthy people that are constantly worrying about losing money. Why don’t they?

There are a couple of ways to answer that, so I'll give you an answer which I think isn't so commonly heard in this forum.

If a wealthy person frets constantly about losing money but doesn't, it's because the thought is being counteracted by other thoughts of his (eg the belief that if he does certain things, he can prevent the loss of his money).

For example, my mother has this fear of losing her luggage when travelling. Hence she is hypervigilant about her luggage, makes sure that they are all labelled, and locked etc. The latter behaviour is motivated by the belief "If I am very careful, nothing will happen to my luggage". This belief is strong enough to counteract the belief "Luggage can easily get stolen or lost when one is travelling".

Of course this is the resistant way of living - the byproduct is worry, anxiety etc.

Why can’t a great manifester prove it to the world by stepping off a tall building and manifesting a safe landing? Or maybe winning lotto 2 weeks on the trot? I saw a post by a person below that said she was scary good at this. Really??? Why not manifest an end to violence in her hometown or even on broader scale. Again I know it involves others so why not manifest all guns to stop working or food to arrive to feed the hungry?

I'll answer the above later, as I need to rush off somewhere now.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

As I have said many times before, this blame mentality arises only out of a misunderstanding of how the LOA works. While the "crap" in your life is caused by your own thoughts, the "crap" in your life is your "fault" (or moral culpability) only to the extent that:

(1) you are able to control your thoughts; and
(2) you failed to do so.

For example, if a toddler falls down while trying to learn to walk, the event is caused by himself. But we do not say that he is "at fault". He has not yet learned enough bodily coordination, balance etc.

In the same way, if crap happens in your life, it is caused by you, but it is generally not your "fault" (that is, there is no need to hate yourself). You simply had limited ability to control your thoughts.

Yeah this is a tough one for me. My parents split up when I was very young and that experience has affected my whole life. It's hard for me to say "well I made my parents get divorced by my thoughts" when I was five years old. I was too young to even know what that meant. But I somehow have to take repsonsibility for it now as an adult?

I know this it tough for most people to accept though. And I saw your post as I was thinking of my childhood experiences BTW.

[Acting Like Godot]

Okay I'm back.

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

Why can’t a great manifester prove it to the world by stepping off a tall building and manifesting a safe landing? Or maybe winning lotto 2 weeks on the trot? I saw a post by a person below that said she was scary good at this. Really??? Why not manifest an end to violence in her hometown or even on broader scale. Again I know it involves others so why not manifest all guns to stop working or food to arrive to feed the hungry?

The simple answer is that the world has never been short of examples. Throughout the history of mankind, we've had all sorts of (alleged or actual) mystics, psychics, holy men, yogis, shamans etc performing (or allegedly performing) all sorts of paranormal-looking deeds, or (actually or allegedly) having all sorts of paranormal-looking experiences ...

From Jesus to Osho to Matthew Manning to Nina Kulagina to Aleister Crowley to Uri Geller to Swami Rama to Joan of Arc to Said Baba Baba to Saint Francis of Assisi to Jane Roberts/Seth to Moses to Scott Russell Hill to ....

Oh, let's not forget our very own Erin Pavlina.

Some of these people do (or allegedly do) some very grand things, and some of them do or (allegedly do) less-grand things. Some of these people are more famous and some of these people are less famous, and some of them obviously are not interested in fame at all

(Matthew Manning, for example, deliberately started withdrawing from publicity in the 1980s and explicitly stated that of his very wide range of alleged psychic abilities, he was no longer interested in using any, except for the purpose of healing sick people).

Now my point is this - no matter how many "miracles" are performed, and whether they're fake or not, you're going to get (a) people who believe them, and (b) people who don't believe them.

And the simple reason is that people's realities are created by themselves. If your belief system really cannot adapt to accommodate, say, a healing miracle created by mindpower, then basically such healing miracles will not exist in your reality - you just won't believe it. Any such thing you see or hear about in your reality will simply be construed by your mind as a fraud, or a stage illusion, or a strange coincidence, or just one of those things that science can't explain yet, etc etc.

So in the end, as far as LOA is concerned, we are back in the position which I've explained many times. In the end, you will just have to convince yourself, either of its truth, or its false-ness. And the way you do that, is to play with it yourself.

---

Finally, I don't think that an IM practitioner can be equally "good" in manifesting all sorts of things. Because every chap has a unique belief system. In a sense, IM/LOA is about deliberately tweaking your belief system, but it doesn't change the fact that there is still an underlying belief system to start with - which heavily determines what you are able to manifest.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by cylon

Yeah this is a tough one for me. My parents split up when I was very young and that experience has affected my whole life. It's hard for me to say "well I made my parents get divorced by my thoughts" when I was five years old. I was too young to even know what that meant. But I somehow have to take repsonsibility for it now as an adult?

I know this it tough for most people to accept though. And I saw your post as I was thinking of my childhood experiences BTW.

What if you were born with a set of beliefs that matched your parents beliefs? You were all in agreement that you all needed the divorce or you all had beliefs that aligned the divorce for the three of you to experience. Perhaps, that is easier to get your head around than a five year old causing his parents to split up because of his thoughts.

[Acting Like Godot]

In a co-creator model of reality, we would say that:

(a) Cylon caused his parents to get divorced;
(b) Cylon's mother caused her to get divorced; and
(c) Cylon's father caused him to get divorced.

and that all three statements are simultaneously true.

[cylon]

I don't know. I guess this gets into more subjective reality territory. All I can do now is grow from it. There's no way I would be who I am now if it had not happened. If they stayed together I would not be on this site, and probably would be a completely different person.

[dancer]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

In a co-creator model of reality, we would say that:

(a) Cylon caused his parents to get divorced;
(b) Cylon's mother caused her to get divorced; and
(c) Cylon's father caused him to get divorced.

and that all three statements are simultaneously true.

My ego reacted to "caused" because it would feel blamed. Responsibility is accepting the situation and growing from it as Cylon is working on. Blame or self-blame would equate to playing victim. A penny dropped... thanks.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by cylon

I don't know. I guess this gets into more subjective reality territory. All I can do now is grow from it. There's no way I would be who I am now if it had not happened. If they stayed together I would not be on this site, and probably would be a completely different person.

Something to also think about, if you'd like, which might "bake your noodle" is that you're assuming that if you "caused" your parent's divorce, that you did it when you were young prior to their divorce.

What if you take time out of the equation altogether. What if your thoughts/beliefs right now have the ability to alter your past.

What if the current belief system and sum of all thoughts right now in this moment creates your future and your past at the same time. You just said that there "is no way I would be who I am not if it had not happened." right? What if that is why you created this story of your past where you parents divorced.

How do body builders build muscle? They put their muscles through strain. THey force their muscle to try to lift something they can't lift to the point of exhaustion, and then you become a stronger person physically by that.

What if this "divorce" that your parents had was created by you for the purpose of making you a stronger person. What if?

[cylon]

Yeah, that's a lot to take in. If time is really an illusion then everything just goes out the window.

The way you say it is the way I have to deal with it anyway. I'll try this out for awhile and see if I can stomach it.

My resistance purging continues.

Maybe I shouldn't be dwelling on this stuff though. It happened 25 years ago. But it's like the "missing link" I think, I haven't made peace with it.

I'll just say it started a series of events and now I'm here.

[Tim Brownson]

Thanks to everybody for the responses. I've come back twice intending to reply and then got distracted by work! I wasn't just stirring the pot and backing off, honest!

Some interesting stuff and of course it's down to me to believe what is good for me. I suppose the major issue I have is with the fact that it's one of those subjects (like religion) that a believer can move the goalposts to fit any given criteria using SR and then claim they were always there. It's a tricky one in that respect.

The one area where I would take major issue is this. If somebody genuinely could do the stepping off a building thing it would end the debate period. A press release and a demonstration would end that argument. It may take a few demonstrations but it could be done, of that I have no doubt but can anybody do it? Has anybody enough real belief to pull it off, or are we still groping around the edges here? Yes there has been some stuff in the dim and distant past but history gets corrupted with time and a lot of the historical stuff was written up decade’s even centuries later. Try and get anybody to agree on what happened at a football game and you'll know how accurate that is likely to be.

As I said originally I do believe that there is a LoA I'm just not convinced anybody knows how it works. People will of course report when it works for them but not report the times when it doesn't because thet are likely to write those experiences off with the belief that they did something wrong or didn't quite believe strongly enough.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

The one area where I would take major issue is this. If somebody genuinely could do the stepping off a building thing it would end the debate period.

It wouldn't.

A press release and a demonstration would end that argument.

Again it wouldn't. I'll give you a specific example - it's not about stepping off a building, but it is about levitation, which I think it's close enough.

Now suppose I tell everyone that I will demonstrate levitation is possible. I set a date and venue in advance, and invite 150 witnesses, including journalists from the press. The chosen venue is not on stage, but in an open outdoor area, in broad daylight, with good visibility.

On the actual day, I meditate intensely and enter into a trance, while the 150 witnesses watch me. And then, as promised, I begin to rise into the air, several feet high. This happens not for just a few seconds, but for five full minutes. Photographers walk all around me, and take as many photos as they like. The next day, the newspapers print the full story, complete with photographs.

Well, would the world be convinced that the powers of the mind can create such extraordinary effects?

According to you, yes.

But this turns out to be incorrect. You see, the levitation demonstration I mentioned above has actually happened, in front of 150 witnesses, with press invited, photos taken, in an open outdoor area etc etc.

It happened in 1936, in India.

Click here for more details. Here's a photo:



Note: this photo was one of many, taken at the time of the demonstration, which was in 1936, long before Adobe Photoshop was invented.

But if you ask people today - is levitation possible? Well, you know what answer you'll get.

As I said, people can only perceive what their belief systems permit them to perceive. If something is totally outside your belief system, then either it will happen when you are not around to perceive it; or if it happens in your presence, you will not be able to perceive it anyway; or if you do perceive it, you will interpret it to be a fraud, or an illusion, or a big mistake etc.

And it is not merely that the effect of history & time passing, that makes people disbelieve. I am sure that even in 1936, when this levitation incident was huge news, there would have been many people who would have said that this was just some kind of illusion, some kind of trick, some kind of fraud - the man just cannot be really levitating. That's just not possible - according to their belief system.

So even today, if someone did a "step off the building and survive very well" feat, equally there would be some people who are convinced, and some people who remain unsure, and some people who scoff and say, "This is utter fraud" or "This is just a clever Hollywood special effect".

In the end, you see, your reality is just what you believe. And if you utterly disbelieve it, it just won't be there, even if it is.

[Tim Brownson]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It wouldn't.



Again it wouldn't. I'll give you a specific example - it's not about stepping off a building, but it is about levitation, which I think it's close enough.

Now suppose I tell everyone that I will demonstrate levitation is possible. I set a date and venue in advance, and invite 150 witnesses, including journalists from the press. The chosen venue is not on stage, but in an open outdoor area, in broad daylight, with good visibility.

On the actual day, I meditate intensely and enter into a trance, while the 150 witnesses watch me. And then, as promised, I begin to rise into the air, several feet high. This happens not for just a few seconds, but for five full minutes. Photographers walk all around me, and take as many photos as they like. The next day, the newspapers print the full story, complete with photographs.

Well, would the world be convinced that the powers of the mind can create such extraordinary effects?

According to you, yes.

But this turns out to be incorrect. You see, the levitation demonstration I mentioned above has actually happened, in front of 150 witnesses, with press invited, photos taken, in an open outdoor area etc etc.

It happened in 1936, in India.

Click here for more details. Here's a photo:



Note: this photo was one of many, taken at the time of the demonstration, which was in 1936, long before Adobe Photoshop was invented.

But if you ask people today - is levitation possible? Well, you know what answer you'll get.

As I said, people can only perceive what their belief systems permit them to perceive. If something is totally outside your belief system, then either it will happen when you are not around to perceive it; or if it happens in your presence, you will not be able to perceive it anyway; or if you do perceive it, you will interpret it to be a fraud, or an illusion, or a big mistake etc.

And it is not merely that the effect of history & time passing, that makes people disbelieve. I am sure that even in 1936, when this levitation incident was huge news, there would have been many people who would have said that this was just some kind of illusion, some kind of trick, some kind of fraud - the man just cannot be really levitating. That's just not possible - according to their belief system.

So even today, if someone did a "step off the building and survive very well" feat, equally there would be some people who are convinced, and some people who remain unsure, and some people who scoff and say, "This is utter fraud" or "This is just a clever Hollywood special effect".

In the end, you see, your reality is just what you believe. And if you utterly disbelieve it, it just won't be there, even if it is.

So you utterly believe it can't be proved, so it can't, right?

Well you've kind of proved my point for me in so much as we don't know really how to do this because you have had to go back 70 years to find an event to back you up.

When I did my NLP Practitioner course I was taught by one of the top teachers in the UK from South Africa. This lady was really into the LoA and this was way before The Secret. Levitation was her real obsession and she had spent 1000's of pounds trying to find somebody that could show her how to do it in Southeast Asia. She couldn't even find anybody that could do it never mind teach her. She was still convinced and that is cool because I think it's possible after all we're just a quantum soup, nothing really solid about us.

If somebody could step off the building and when I say somebody I don't mean a holy man per se because I feel sure they'd not want to be involved in such a spectacle, but somebody that has learned this and holds a western perspective. Then with modern reporting etc it could be proved, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. This isn't the 1930's. All you do is head for the greatest skeptics with the power to influence, allow them to set it up and do it.

Of course there will always be disbelievers with anything but to hold up your hands and say "nobody will believe it" is sending the wrong message unless of course you're not sure that anybody can do it or you don't want to spread this power for the advancement of the human race.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Tim Brownson

So you utterly believe it can't be proved, so it can't, right?

Well you've kind of proved my point for me in so much as we don't know really how to do this because you have had to go back 70 years to find an event to back you up.

Nah ... I can find lots of other "paranormal" events of much more recent vintage. But I thought this levitation example was a good example, because you mentioned that a press release would settle the matter, and this particular matter had received wide publicity.

If somebody could step off the building and when I say somebody I don't mean a holy man per se because I feel sure they'd not want to be involved in such a spectacle, but somebody that has learned this and holds a western perspective. Then with modern reporting etc it could be proved, of that I have no doubt whatsoever. This isn't the 1930's. All you do is head for the greatest skeptics with the power to influence, allow them to set it up and do it.

1. In 1974, a scientific conference was held whereby 21 scientists from different countries came to study one man for three days. His name was Matthew Manning, and he displayed a wide range of psychic abilities to the scientists. At least one of those scientists is still actively researching telepathy today. His name is Professor Brian Josephson - a Nobel prize winner in Physics, currently at Cambridge University.

2. Another psychic, Nina Kulagina, was studied by Russian scientists ..... for 20 years ...... She performed numerous psychic feats under laboratory conditions, such as psychokinesis - moving objects just by concentrating on them. While she performed these feats, the scientists would videotape her; scan her brainwaves, check her blood sugar, check her heart rate, check for electromagnetic activity in the room etc etc ....

3. There's this guy, often known as John of God, in Brazil. Like Esther Hicks, he does channelling, and while he's "possessed", he takes an unsterilised kitchen knife, cuts open his patients (they're conscious, and not anaesthetised), sticks his hand in, rips out a tumour. There is no bleeding; the patients feel no pain; the wound closes up almost immediately; there is no post-surgery infection. Harvard scientists have gone to watch him in action, and monitor his brain waves while he does this (apparently, during these times, as soon as he starts channelling, his brain waves accelerate to levels normally achievable only in human beings who are on drugs).

4. Said Baba is still doing his rounds every day in India; healing the sick, manifesting objects out of thin air; visiting his followers in their dreams and telling them ABC, then the next day, he asks them, "Did you not see me in your dreams last night, and did I not tell you ABC?". We actually had a forummer here before (his name was Uplift), he is an American who travelled to India and stayed with Sai Baba for months, witnessing numerous miracles for himself.

5. Daniel Dunglas Home levitated for years and years, on numerous occasions (probably a few hundred times), at all sorts of different places, in front of all sorts of different people; including scientists, journalists, judges, Queen Sophia of the Netherlands; Napoleon III etc.

6. For some years now, the Government of Vietnam has been using a small number of psychics to locate the corpses of missing soldiers who died in the Vietnam war. You guessed it - the psychics are doing an Erin Pavlina, they just call up the ghost and ask, "Okay, tell me where is your body now." BBC NEWS | Programmes | This World | Communicating with Vietnam's war dead

None of the above proves anything to the people to whom these things can't be proved.

Of course there will always be disbelievers with anything but to hold up your hands and say "nobody will believe it" is sending the wrong message unless of course you're not sure that anybody can do it or you don't want to spread this power for the advancement of the human race.

I'm not saying that NOBODY will believe X. I'm saying that some people will believe, some will be undecided, some will disbelieve - whatever X may be. X could be stepping off a tall building and surviving; or levitating; or psychokinesis; or channeling; or walking on water.

People will believe whatever is within the limits of their belief system.

By the way, a lot of Westerners don't know it, but many of the so-called miracles which Jesus allegedly did are exactly the same stuff that many "holy men" in India have been reported to do.

Walking on water, for instance, is a demonstration of what, in India, is known as "vayu siddhi". Vayu siddhi is itself is just one out of eight categories of different siddhis (a siddhi refers to a special power that, according to Indian spiritual teachings, is attainable through spiritual training).

In fact, the power to manifest your desires (which we call the Law of Attraction around here) is also a pretty ancient trick in India. Again it's just one of the siddhis. It's call prakamya siddhi.

Google and see ....... The Law of Attraction is a very, very old trick.