LoA - action or no action??

[Bitsy]

I just read the article in the thread below:

Look no further, this is it.

Since the responses to it were full of praise and understanding, I didn't want to sully the atmosphere of the thread with my disgruntled feelings and my confusion.

I read the entire article with one sort of intention/goal in mind. I recently was forced to leave the country I'm in to apply for a visa to stay longer in it and it was never a given that I would be issued another visa for the length of time I wanted. I intended to get the visa and I also necessarily put a time limit on the time period in which I should get it.

As I read the article in the thread above, all I could think is that this article was really saying that if I want to manifest a visa, a residence permit for a foreign country, a domestic or international move, a trip around the world, etc., I should sit, visualize it, feel it, think it, only take "inspired" action....well, I could have stay in the country that I was legally bound to leave and just manifest the visa right there...and while waiting for inspired action, get arrested and thrown in jail.

I didn't do any of that. In fact, I endured 3 weeks of hell to get that visa, but by God, I got the visa and on the very last day of the deadline I set for it. If anyone knows how I could have gotten it with minimal agony, please tell me...

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of things that you CAN'T manifest by sitting around, thinking, feeling and acting on inspired thought. There are forms and protocols you MUST obey in order to get things, there are an infinite number of goals to reach in an intention such as an international move and it DOESN'T just come to you and manifest itself to you, not even with inspired action, if, in the midst of all the stress of moving and packing and bureacratic red tape, you could possibly even feel the subtle nudge of such an inspiration.

I don't undertstand or see how a person, even one from the other thread, could possibly manifest any of the goals I've mentioned in this post without taking much deliberate action and deliberate, possibly even stress-producing movement towards the goal.

So which is it? Action or no action?

[cylon]

Who are you trying to convince?

[RT Wolf]

^ </thread>

I wish. A couple of notes:

- Try this: With all your intentions, add "in the easiest way possible". I dunno why it has to be action or no action (I suspect it has something to do with resistance), and it differs from intention to intention. That opens up the possibility of things manifesting without direct action but if direct action is the easiest way (and it may not be very easy, just the easiest).
- You sound like you were super-attached to the outcome.
- Pay special attention to what cylon said. That is pretty much the best response you can get. Bravo, cylon.

Read Seven Spiritual Secrets of Success by Deepak Chopra. You can probably find it online. The chapters I'd point you to (and google the titles and you just might get the whole text of them) are The Law of Least Effort and The Law of Detachment.

Besides that, try reading The Power of Now, or other such spiritual texts.

[Rose of Cairo]

great post RTWolf. A (transitive) bravo to you.

[Acting Like Godot]

Please click one of the Quick Reply icons in the posts above to activate Quick Reply.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

The fact of the matter is that there are plenty of things that you CAN'T manifest by sitting around, thinking, feeling and acting on inspired thought. There are forms and protocols you MUST obey in order to get things, there are an infinite number of goals to reach in an intention such as an international move and it DOESN'T just come to you and manifest itself to you, not even with inspired action, if, in the midst of all the stress of moving and packing and bureacratic red tape, you could possibly even feel the subtle nudge of such an inspiration.

So which is it? Action or no action?

The level of work required will always be exactly the amount you believe will be required. Change the fundamental beliefs about how much work is required and see what happens......you may surprised at the result.

Max

[jeff3]

Maybe you should talk to some of the people who do get visa's easily and w/out stress so you'll know it is possible. (it does happen, I know several people who travel extensively, some have the same experience you did , some don't) . If you are experiencing a lot of stress over this doubt is almost certainly an issue for you. If you "knew" this would work, which seems to be mindset required, you would not stress. For instance, if you called a friend who can get you a visa in 2 days and has done so on numerous occasions you would not experience the anxiety, you would make the request and then wait on it's arrival ,while making plans for travel.

I agree that immediate action may be required sometimes, but I feel that they are often the result of bad circumstances/desperate situations that you created through mis-application of mind. I also hear the battle raging in your mind about how (or if) all this stuff works, until you are convinced you will create varied results which will reflect your confusion over the issue.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by jeff3

Maybe you should talk to some of the people who do get visa's easily and w/out stress so you'll know it is possible. (it does happen, I know several people who travel extensively, some have the same experience you did , some don't) . If you are experiencing a lot of stress over this doubt is almost certainly an issue for you. If you "knew" this would work, which seems to be mindset required, you would not stress. For instance, if you called a friend who can get you a visa in 2 days and has done so on numerous occasions you would not experience the anxiety, you would make the request and then wait on it's arrival ,while making plans for travel.

I agree that immediate action may be required sometimes, but I feel that they are often the result of bad circumstances/desperate situations that you created through mis-application of mind. I also hear the battle raging in your mind about how (or if) all this stuff works, until you are convinced you will create varied results which will reflect your confusion over the issue.

Hmmm...that's right, there was actually a person here who was going to arrange a visa for me without me leaving the country, but on the day his brother (my former "friend") was supposed to meet with me to deal with my problem, my former friend and I had yet another misunderstanding, we missed each other, he thought I stood him up, I thought he stood me up and we didn't talk to each other for 3 days. And being on bad terms with my former friend, it would not have been right to take advantage of the generosity of his brother. Needless to say, I lived to regret that misunderstanding.

I had no doubt about getting the visa - it was a breeze to get the visa. Everything I had to do to get to where I could apply for it again all went wrong. Ironically, getting the visa was the only easy thing about my trip.

But I don't want to box this issue into one little example, I gave many others, and, as people are always speaking about LoA in general terms, I hoped for an answer in general terms, as in the link to the other thread, not relating to my one little situation.

I don't understand what cylon said. Who am I trying to convince of what?

I don't doubt that this works, because it is working fine for lots of other people, I just don't know how to do it, evidently. This visa is the first material thing that I ever got by applying I-M, even though it's been almost a year since I began trying. I get reminded of the Monkey's Paw story though, where someone wishes for a lot of money and then someone he's very close to dies and he inherits the money, but he is suffering because of how he got it - that is happening and has happened to me so that I've gotten a little fear about manifesting things. I also remember something Bill Cosby said in one of his stand-up comedy shows some decades ago about when his children were born - he said something like he and his wife asked God for children, but he said you must be more specific with God when you ask for things, because God will play jokes on you, he said God gave him brain-damaged children -well, it's a joke, but it's the point of it that I am referring to.

[RT Wolf]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

I don't understand what cylon said. Who am I trying to convince of what?

I get reminded of the Monkey's Paw story though, where someone wishes for a lot of money and then someone he's very close to dies and he inherits the money, but he is suffering because of how he got it - that is happening and has happened to me so that I've gotten a little fear about manifesting things.

Trying to convince someone that action IS required or that beaurocratic red tape IS required to get through.

Tell me, do you agree with these sayings?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.
You can't get something for nothing.

The monkey paw thing is going to hold you back, big time, and I got the same sort of feeling from your first post that you have a belief that you can't get anything worth having easily, or that you have to sacrifice something to get something else, a big part of the scarcity mentality. Its about how you do your cost-value calculation, IMO. See here:

The Mental Virus That’s Keeping You Broke | Inspired Money Maker - How To Make Money Doing What You Love

My response to above, it may be a little rambly, but if you cna understand it, I think it might help you, especially point 4:
Mind-Manual » Musings about Intending Money

While not directly about what you're talking about, but it seems like a version of what I call "middle-class mentality". That's not an accurate label by any means, but it just says to me that you believe to get something you have to give something up (scarcity thinking), either emotionally, physically, spiritually, monetarily or what have you.

Now here's the alternate belief: That you can have things without needing to give something up. Think about times you got gifts? Or the time you found money on the ground, if you did.

Another, related belief is that for you to have something, someone else has to give something up.

Let me know if any of this rings a bell with you and I'm not just totally off the mark. I hope this helps anyway.

You might want to start by reading some good PD books if you haven't, like Goals! by Brian Tracy or the Articles by Steve Pavlina. Then try some IM books like Seven Spiritual Secrets, The Law of Attraction by Michael Losier (excellent intro) and The Law of Attraction by Abraham-Hicks (and the other books by them). I hope this helps!

[absvan]

Bitsy,

I beleive that you have to take action. But it does not mean that you have to work your @$$ off. When you intend something and you stay in the flow, you will know what needs to be done. When you know what to do, do it.

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Trying to convince someone that action IS required or that beaurocratic red tape IS required to get through.

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I was asking, because I didn't like all the suffering I had to go through. Why would I be trying to convince anyone when I am asking for help from people with more experience? That doesn't make any sense.

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Tell me, do you agree with these sayings?

There's no such thing as a free lunch.
You can't get something for nothing.

I haven't actually ever thought about them deliberately, so offhand my answer would be I don't know.

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

The monkey paw thing is going to hold you back, big time, and I got the same sort of feeling from your first post that you have a belief that you can't get anything worth having easily, or that you have to sacrifice something to get something else, a big part of the scarcity mentality.

Odd how I remember that story. I had to read it in school when I was little and I guess it really scared me. I realized that as a problem when I wrote my last post, so I decided I best listen to the Belief paraliminal CD I have, I don't have a lot of PD resources or access where I am, nor is it easy to get any here.

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

Now here's the alternate belief: That you can have things without needing to give something up. Think about times you got gifts? Or the time you found money on the ground, if you did.

Like the Monkey's Paw, I remember a time I was little, about 10, and found $10 in the bathroom of KFC.

What do I do with the memory?

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

I hope this helps!

Yes, thank you

Ultimately, I think I hoped to find someone who had manifested one of the types of goals I listed without filling out the form or with great ease and then instruct me or tell me what they did.

[qed]

Originally Posted by Bitsy

So which is it? Action or no action?

If by "no action", you mean "detachment", yes you do need a certain level of detachment from the details... But if absolutely no action was required on your part, your existence wouldn't be necessary and there is nothing unnecessary in existence. So action is required as long as you can possibly see a way to take action.

By the way, don't listen to these LoA (and subjective reality) advocates too much. Having lived a long, left-brained life so far, they -including Steve- just found out about their right brains and they are ecstatic. I am extremely happy for them, but now they completely forgot about the left side. Shame. I am sure, sooner or later, they'll realize they need both sides to be whole!

Originally Posted by Bitsy

Ultimately, I think I hoped to find someone who had manifested one of the types of goals I listed without filling out the form or with great ease and then instruct me or tell me what they did.

Pigeonholing how something should or could manifest is a recipe for disappointment.. Sometimes it works out as you imagined it would, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it doesn't work out at all... This simply means that there is something beyond your subjective experience of reality. If you turn into a LoA/IM/SR lemming though, you might not be able to see that. They'll have you believe "you just didn't think hard enough, you have subconscious thoughts, beliefs blocking the manifestation" etc... Which may be the case, but even that shows you, there are layers of reality beyond the grasp of your consciousness! If you had grasped them, they wouldn't be blocking you now, would they?

For clarification: I am not disagreeing with LoA, SR or IM. The one-ness, the visualization, the faith and all that "mental" stuff is surely necessary and an active part of manifestation. And so is action. But these are only correlated with what is going to unfold in the next moments. Not the cause! "You" (as in, the body and the mind within the body) seem to be the center of it all, but just like Earth isn't the center of the universe (even though it seemed that way for a long time), you are not the center of consciousness either.

In short, be careful what you believe. It blinds you to everything else and you won't even know what you missed! You do ultimately have to believe though. You can't be jello-like all the time either. So pick your beliefs very wisely!

[RT Wolf]

One thing with LoA is to focus on the outcome, not the process. Bitsy, I'd recommend having a look at those books I mentioned in my earlier post, and reading the posts Pavlina's made on them too. I may not be able to give you a specific example of getting a visa, but you can find some general pointers in those books that apply to most situations. Example:

The last one was that I wanted to pick up a few shifts at a better paying job where I work now. Normally that would have involved talking to my boss's boss, getting him to "hire" me, talking to my other manager, trying to find shifts I could do, and prolly fill out some forms.

What actually happened? Another manager stuck his head out of a door about a week after I decided I wanted to do that job and asked me if I wanted to pick up a few shifts, booked me in for a quick training session and a few shifts right then.

Also, qed's theory, while interesting, is probably wrong, and I say that with all respect. I've kept good (not scientific scrutiny good, obviously) documentation of my specific intentions, as well as relatively good record of just general synchronisities (when I've noticed them) since I started this thing around last year. I've discovered that a lot of my goals got fulfilled along the way, without really putting in any effort. Examples:

I wanted to find a fulfilling relationship. Normally, that would involve going out there, meeting a ton of new people, getting/giving numbers/emails, arranging dates, hoping that the two of us are compatible enough on my different levels. That's the "left brain" way, that its a numbers game, talk to 200 people and find a 10 month relationship. What actually happened? I didn't do any of that, went about things like I normally do, happened to drop by a movie night on campus just randomly and found someone who is essentially perfect for me, and she feels the same way.

The new shifts above also represent about a 50% raise from my current level. There aren't very many of these shifts, but I've also started to get leads on other jobs where I might make that much money or more on a regular basis. Example: Normally I'd have to go the career center, talk to the people I know and send out a bunch of resumes just to get leads. What actually happened? Coworker of mine in my current job told me that he was randomly talking to some guy in one of his classes who had a nice job but that there might be an opening there. I'm going to go down and see them about this thing today and see how it works out. It might not, but hey, it just might.

Another example just for the hell of it:
Mind-Manual » A Quantum Leap in Intention-Manifestation

One final example:

Last night, after work, I stopped off at a coffee shop to get myself some chamomile tea (it relaxes me). When I got in there, I discovered I also really wanted to buy a chocolate croissant, but unfortunatley I was about 25 cents short for both, so I bought the tea and went outside. I decided I was going to find the quarter somehow, and as I was standing there contemplating asking people for me (mostly cause I thought it was funny), a friend of mine stepped out of the shop who I hadn't seen when I was leaving for some reason. He was able to spot me the quarter and I got myself a chocolate croissant. What's the probability of a guy who lives in scarborough (about an hour away from campus) being at SCHOOL on a sunday night? I dunno. I go to that coffee shop at least a couple of times a week and I generally never see anybody i know there, and yet, that night, I saw two people I knew and got my croissant.

Is this incontrevertible proof that IM works? Nope, especially not to the most ardent and resistant skeptic. If anything, being a psych major (my other major is cinema studies, if you're interested, I've been "right-brain" for a while, also right-left brain models are generlaly considered inaccurate by most psychologists), I prolly know better than most people the kinds of errors in thinking people can make, especially since I like to read up on the subject. I'm still going through this process of changing my current view of reality as "objective" and "unchangeable" because its simply more accurate in my experience. Unfortunately, its one of those things that cannot be "proven" under the scientific method because scientific method (at least according to Propper) cannot prove, it can only disprove. Basically, the statement has to be falsifiable. Ie, "I can create my own reality" is not falsifiable, but "I cannot create my own reality" is, because I just need one or a few instances of "creating reality". Thus, ironically, the scientific method can only disprove objective reality, but not prove subjective reality? Weirrddddddd. At any rate, this is an arena in which I do not believe science can really "prove" or "disprove" things, at least not practically and it'd be better to leave it upto philosophy or religion. Science or the scientific method, or the simply the feeling of the authority of scientists give to "truth" are not very good when you are discussing something that undermines one of the assumptions of scientific method itself. I hate Descartes, too, just so you know, because of the massive division he put between the "physical" world and the mind.

Anyhoo, I think its hard to deny that these are low-probability events, especially the bike thing, which is just RIDICULOUS. And these low-probability events just keep piling up. Just try out the belief for a little while, if it doesn't work, hey, you took a risk and if you make a habit of taking these risks, you're bound to get something worth getting, right? Its just a matter of probability. Take a risk and try five new things, four of them might flop but the one that doesn't might just make up for the four that did. Have a read of these articles if you haven't already:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ering-beliefs/
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...ctive-beliefs/

[Bitsy]

Those were helpful examples, especially the first one. I have a fear of repercussions of how I attain something...and am afraid if I don't do it, it won't get done at all. I thought, if I get a visa extension from this guy, what will happen, will I pay for it more dearly in due time?

RT Wolf, could I pm you about a different, yet remotely related subject that I'd rather not mention in public?

I did read some of the articles on your blog, but haven't yet read those of Steve's. I forgot to mention a book I have...somewhere, I even think I have it with me, called the Seven Spiritual Laws of Yoga...by Deepak Chopra, which has laws in it, it must be the same ones you mentioned, only he applies them in yoga asanas.

[RT Wolf]

^ I'd be honoured if I could help.

[Lil Chris]

If I could just jump in here and say...

Bitsy,
If and/when something transpires in a difficult way (ex. you had all these little problems getting your passport) is the first thing you think or say "Oh, naturally this would be difficult" or something to this effect...?

This is what I refer to as the baseline... Your first and natural reaction to an event...

This is what you want to get a hold of and change to suit your needs. For example, around my house it used to be stressful with money, every member bitching that we didn't have any... If a problem did arise it would be stress city, but it's kinda funny in the same respect that we would always say (without a second thought), "let's not worry it will work out, it always does..." (this was our baseline... After a while of paying attention, we noticed that there was no reason to worry, why? Because of our baseline feeling, we just focused more on that... In return the stress level went way down... As far as having an abundant financial mentality, well, we're working on that now...

I hope this relates to where you want to be...

[Bitsy]

Originally Posted by Lil Chris

If I could just jump in here and say...

Bitsy,
If and/when something transpires in a difficult way (ex. you had all these little problems getting your passport) is the first thing you think or say "Oh, naturally this would be difficult" or something to this effect...?

Perhaps it would have been in the past, however, for two reasons, I didn't this time. One reason is that I was really in so much immediate trouble that I didn't have a moment to think or to step back and react to what was happening to me from an observing/judging perspective, but only could act to take action or think how to improve my external situation, and that was a perpetual state for 2 weeks roughly, and the second reason is because I am stopping thinking like that. However, I was upset a lot, just as nasty surprises kept happening and I "fell apart" a lot as a result.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by RT Wolf

I wanted to find a fulfilling relationship. Normally, that would involve going out there, meeting a ton of new people, getting/giving numbers/emails, arranging dates, hoping that the two of us are compatible enough on my different levels. That's the "left brain" way, that its a numbers game, talk to 200 people and find a 10 month relationship. What actually happened? I didn't do any of that, went about things like I normally do, happened to drop by a movie night on campus just randomly and found someone who is essentially perfect for me, and she feels the same way.

That's cool. When you intended this relationship did you hear phrases in your head like "it's a numbers game, have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a (princess) etc."?

[RT Wolf]

^ Nope. Honestly? It was among the most perfect intentions I ever put out. You see, my actual "intention" was just sitting down and honestly saying how I wanted each area of my life to be (I have 13 areas), and I put down the traits I wanted in the other person, while also noting what I could give. And then totally detached from it. You see, it wasn't a priority at all for me to do that then, so while I realized I might do that stuff at some point, but not now so I just put it out of my head. A little while later (about a month or so) I met her.

I think we all try too hard (me included). Try to force things to happen, or will things into being. I think we'd all do better to just relax and get more playful. Playfully imagine the most amazingly perfect life for yourself and just detach. Allow yourself the freedom to be like a child sometimes.

[cylon]

I agree we try to hard. And that would get in the way of things happening. I have written down the areas of my life as well, basically everything I want. The only hurdle I've experienced is, I keep reading how you have to be unshakable and always keep your intention in your mind. Like "if I'm not always thinking about it then I'll forget and won't put enough energy into it."

The flip side is to just put it out there and step back and let it come. I've ALSO read how people will just set an intention, completely forget about it, and it shows up anyway.

But, whenever I step back and let it come, I feel better and life is more fun. So maybe I've already found the answer, just need to convince myself that yes it's really not that difficult.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

I agree we try to hard. And that would get in the way of things happening. I have written down the areas of my life as well, basically everything I want. The only hurdle I've experienced is, I keep reading how you have to be unshakable and always keep your intention in your mind. Like "if I'm not always thinking about it then I'll forget and won't put enough energy into it."

The flip side is to just put it out there and step back and let it come. I've ALSO read how people will just set an intention, completely forget about it, and it shows up anyway.

But, whenever I step back and let it come, I feel better and life is more fun. So maybe I've already found the answer, just need to convince myself that yes it's really not that difficult.

It's not about one single thought, it's about all the thoughts.

One single thought will create, but all other resisting thoughts will kill it.

You can easily create all sorts of things with one thought and if you think about your daily life it's working like that 24/7, but it's the resisting opposite thoughts that kill the creative good thought.

So a big goal will have more resisting thoughts than supportive creative thoughts, so that's why an important big goal will need more supportive thoughts.

Max

[cylon]

So set the intention, and when you think of it make sure it's with positive energy, then feel that positive energy and chill out for awhile, until you think about the goal again, then send positive energy, etc.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

So set the intention, and when you think of it make sure it's with positive energy, then feel that positive energy and chill out for awhile, until you think about the goal again, then send positive energy, etc.

Emotion is for validation, for validating the attainment. You can use it in the process, but as all emotion has an opposite, then it's easy to slip a negative doubt emotion into the mix while trying to maintain happy thoughts.

Knowing something to be true requires no emotion. It just depends how dependent you are on emotion to validate. Your creative source has no self concern so it has limitation, but creative source as a pure consciousenss/energy thing is not emotive.

You can observe, perceive and create without any emotion, you do it all day long, but for some reason PD gurus allude to emotion being a creative tool and while emotion is a wonderful validating tool and you can use it, once the postive emotion fades, it's opposite can creep in.

I find creation better when observation/perception is non emotive.

If true creative source has no emotive power, then it makes sense to align with that as much as possible.

Max

[Floridagal]

O.K. folks if a good person as the OP ends up in immigration hell it is a very serious case. It is not a time for spiculations. He did everything right to the best of his ability his OP states that it was a huge isssue. Specualtions and random advice no options here.....

[Lil Chris]

Originally Posted by Floridagal

O.K. folks if a good person as the OP ends up in immigration kail it is a very neg case. It is not a time for spiculations. He did everything right to the best of his ability his OP states that it was a huge isssue. Specualtions and random advice no options here.....

What's OP...?

[cylon]

Original Post.

So if you post to the original post, that would be OPP. Down?

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I find creation better when observation/perception is non emotive.

But don't you get excited when you think of the things you want?

[Jennihul]

Just living IS ACTION. Existing is action. Now, given that most of use do more than just exist, anything we do entails action. Even inaction is a form of action.

So if you have a desire, and assuming you have adopted the real key to LOA: the proper mindset, feeling and level of joy, you will naturally move in the direction of taking some kind of action, some call it inspired action, toward your goal. Even if that is just visualization. Planning. Making space for your manifestation. Or something more concrete.

Inspired action is a term used to differentiate between manifestation-killing WORK type action (which feels like hard work and may elicit dread or a negative association) and the kind of easy action that naturally flows from desire. Effortless action. Enjoyable action.

There is no reason to utilize LOA and then just quit taking the natural actions life entails. Why would anyone do that? Just to see if it works? That suggests doubt and skepticism which is a manifestation-killer.


Jennifer

[cylon]

I'm thinking inspired action, is action you can't help but doing because it feels right and you can't stop doing it because it's the most natural thing in the world. To YOU it's just effortless, but maybe to an outsider, if it's something they are not interested in it may appear to be "hard work".

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by cylon

But don't you get excited when you think of the things you want?

Yes, I'm not saying don't use emotion to enhance focus and intention, but realise it's a tool that can aid in creation, it's not creative by itself.

I've manifested many things with simple thought and no emotion, so the process of manifestation is not dependant on emotion, if it was then we couldn't manifest without emotion, but you do that everyday.

Max