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10-30-2007, 08:08 PM
| #1 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
 |  Subjectivity & Insanity
If you put aside Steve's persona for a second, and read some of the things he writes, you could come to the conclusion that he borders clinical insanity! "Bending" reality, astral projections, psychic abilities, seeing "spiritual" beings, intending things into manifestation?!?! I am not agreeing or disagreeing with what he says he can do. My point is that there is an extremely thin line between insanity and having genuinely "real" but rare experiences ("real" being something that others can experience given a particular circumstance) The question is how can you tell if you "lost it" and there is a major wiring problem in your brain or if you are really experiencing something rooted in "reality" yet it is so rare that other humans do not normally experience it? There are certain mental diseases that cause you to see things/beings which do not "really" exist for "normal" people. For example what if schizophrenic patients are experiencing "real" things which are really there that "normal" people can't see or did they really really lose it? According to wikipedia (which is in no way an irrefutable source, but will have to do), here is how schizophrenia is diagnosed: Quote:
Of course, we gotta question what "normal" is.. Just because certain experiences are statistically common, does that really mean they are -or should be considered- normal? To sum up, how can we really classify if a given experience is genuine, repeatable, scientific and "normal" vs. it is a mental illness or some kinda mental disorder thing.... and how can we even define "normal"? Last edited by qed; 10-30-2007 at 08:11 PM. | |
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10-30-2007, 10:59 PM
| #2 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Berlin, Germany
Posts: 8,749
 | Quote:
It comes down to the results. If your mental state improves your productivity or success, it is good to have that mental state. If it diminishes your output you should change your mental state (a lot of people with schizophrenia). | |
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10-30-2007, 11:38 PM
| #3 (permalink) | |
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10-31-2007, 12:41 AM
| #4 (permalink) | ||
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
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 I didn't say he is insane. What I did say is that his experiences could be labeled as such by the untrained observer; then I went on to question what is "normal" anyway... and then I asked how can you tell the difference between abnormal and insane and abnormal and enlightened. Quote:
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10-31-2007, 12:49 AM
| #5 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 330
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You may not be calling him insane, but you're heavily implying it. Try to understand subjective reality to see where Steve is coming from. He believes in astral projection/psychic abilities because they make life much more fun and interesting. Because he believes in them, he has those experiences. |
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10-31-2007, 01:02 AM
| #6 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Mar 2007
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hehe i'm sorry. I misinterpreted your post then. Must have been the rush | |
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10-31-2007, 01:26 AM
| #7 (permalink) |
| Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia
Posts: 225
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Wouldn't identifying yourself as your ego be considered a sort of insanity? And seeing that the ego has a hold of many of the human population, I wonder if in a way... most people are insane, to a degree... (the deeply identified being the most dangerous to themselves and others) But because it's common, it's therefore normal and acceptable. Anyone who isn't 'insane' to a socially acceptable level is therefore labeled as being the one who has lost their mind. I use the word insane loosely here because It can become very subjective when considering what is or is not insane. And also, it's just a word, words themselves place things into small boxes too easily, just for the sake of convenience. Is Steve insane? from what I've seen, no. He's aware of his ego's presence and continues to learn and not become bogged down in limiting perspectives- which most others hold for the sake of comfort/fear of the unknown. |
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10-31-2007, 02:53 AM
| #8 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Inside the Container
Posts: 1,543
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Steve is not insane.........to be insane, you have to exist first. Did Steve exist before you knew of him? If Steve existed before you knew of him, then every single possible thing must exist also and that means everything inside and outside your awareness. And that makes for one big mess and that's why they invented god, to be responsible for it all, because no human could manage that kind of responsibility without going insane. Steve's only insane if you believe he is..........it actually has nothing to do with him and everything to do with you. Max |
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10-31-2007, 03:05 AM
| #9 (permalink) | |||
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
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His experiences certainly do not fit the norm, but that does not mean they are not real. Hence the questioning: How do you know you don't conform to the norm yet you are experiencing actual, real things VS you don't conform to the norm as in you are mentally broken. To take an example from history of science, when some people thought they may be able to fly like birds, first they were labeled as heretics.. A long time later, it turns out there is a way people can fly using wings and air pressure. The original abnormal idea of flying is no longer abnormal. In fact it is a common and stressful experience. On the other hand, schizophrenics have not been able to convince anyone (yet) that what they are experiencing is indeed real. Quote:
I can hear you thinking "but there is no 'mental', there is no 'mind', there is no 'body', only the container of consciousness!"... I can't say everyone, but whenever I pop my head into one of the SR discussions, I read people claiming "there is nothing but the consciousness container" even though Steve himself said on many occasions that he is not dismissing the objective reality all together. He is using various lenses and going with whichever one works or is more empowering in a given situation. I personally blend subjective and objective aspects of reality together, and it sounds like this is where we will part with you as well. You sound like one of the "there is nothing but consciousness" crowd (and I respect that) and no matter what I say, your reply will be "it doesn't exist, it is all within the consciousness; you can just change it". My claim is that there is indeed an objective element to the consciousness you are experiencing, and it can indeed be mislead. It can confuse the map for the territory and mislead you. Of course you won't know this until your map no longer follows the territory! Until then, life is good. Quote:
BIG WARNING: To be able to think this way, you have to accept that there is an objective element to the subjective experience. If you believe in a purely subjective reality (which is possibly a misunderstanding of Steve's articles), what I am talking about will not make sense to you at all. There are a zillion threads discussing this already. If you believe in a pure subjective reality, this is not a good thread for you. Last edited by qed; 10-31-2007 at 03:18 AM. | |||
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11-02-2007, 03:03 PM
| #10 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 6,852
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Back to criticizing the guy who makes this forum possible. Last edited by cylon; 11-02-2007 at 03:06 PM. | |
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11-02-2007, 03:19 PM
| #11 (permalink) | |
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11-03-2007, 01:40 AM
| #12 (permalink) |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,613
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If Steve is able to get through the challenges of everyday life fairly competently, then he probably isn't insane. I expect that most insane people will have difficulties doing things like balancing a chequebook; remembering to shave; maintaining friendships; holding down a job; going to the supermarket and coming back without getting lost; understanding a newspaper. I would say that the ability to regularly write long, clear articles, with paragraphs neatly organised, grammar intact, punctuation marks in the right place, no spelling mistakes etc, is a good sign of sanity. |
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11-03-2007, 02:32 AM
| #13 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
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Once again, and let me underline it this time, the question is not whether "Steve" is insane or not... The question is whether anyone reporting similar experiences has lost it or found something invaluable AND how can the person tell the difference... Note that this is not looking for proof. A person will not need to "prove" anything to himself (since he is already having the experience) except for one fact perhaps... and that is that his mental state is fine or not. By the way, you cannot know what a mentally sick person experiences! To you it all looks wacko, but you have no clue what it looks like from that person's perspective! Last edited by qed; 11-03-2007 at 02:53 AM. | |
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11-03-2007, 04:27 AM
| #15 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Inside the Container
Posts: 1,543
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Max | |
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11-03-2007, 04:57 AM
| #16 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 9,613
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Eg are you able to balance a chequebook; remember to shave; maintain friendships; hold down a job; go to the supermarket and come back without getting lost; understand a newspaper; or write a long, clear article, with paragraphs neatly organised, grammar intact, punctuation marks in the right place and no spelling mistakes etc. | |
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11-03-2007, 05:02 AM
| #17 (permalink) |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: england blackpool
Posts: 24
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in my eyes is what people reffer to as " thinking outside the box". its all question to how people can take certain objects, situations, happenings and explainations and show a diffrent point of view. it is common for many to believe what they are told and not to have any other thoughts. Man though cannot understand everything and never will, so certain things that are diffrent can not be shunned as wrong or misguided. these diffrent behaviourle patterns show people using what they have to bring a deeper thought into a situation and bring up their own comcluion. persoanally i believe in many of the things listed and contnue to do so until seen with my own eyes to be proven otherwise |
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11-03-2007, 10:10 AM
| #18 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Inside the Container
Posts: 1,543
| Quote:
Max | |
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11-03-2007, 10:48 AM
| #19 (permalink) | |
| Family Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toronto, Canuckland
Posts: 1,737
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I don't know of anyone who reporting similar experiences that has lost it or not. I suppose if you're that person, you just have to assume that you're not mentally broken. It sounds a little like you're wondering that if someone has rare experiences, how do they determine for themselves whether they are "real" or not. And that if other people don't hvae those rare experience, then is the "problem" in yourself in that you imagined it or in the other people that they are unable to experience it. Is that correct? I think you just have to have a lot of faith and confidence in yourself. And much humility, I'll bet. Its hard to determine what is "insanity" and what is "normal". Take epilleptic (sp?) seizures, part way down the line of history, they were considered signs of the divine, other times, signs of possession by evil spirits and today millions of normal people live with them. So what is "normal" will change a lot going forward. I hope that was what you were talking about, its really early here. Interesting discussion. | |
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11-03-2007, 01:27 PM
| #20 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 67
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Hi qed.....I have a friend who dedicated years of her life to pursuing all she could be spiritually. Many of the beliefs (or realities...could be either) offered here in these forums were hers as well. She is one who crossed the line. A few years ago, she got lost inside it somehow, and became unable to function as a human being. She was subsequently diagnosed as schizophrenic, and is feeling much better (able to function) using medication. I wonder about that. People have all kinds of beliefs that give their lives meaning, and like was said earlier in this thread, if they are enriching, most excellent!! My belief is I am a spiritual being having a HUMAN experience, and I am so very content to explore all that that is. I find that I don't have the desire to be a human being having a SPIRITUAL experience, because for me, it defeats the purpose of being here. I wonder, considering my friend's experience, if the brain in some people rebels if they wander too far off the path of being human. (the 3D) Just a wondering. I don't know enough about any of this stuff to really have an opinion, just a bunch of wonderings........emilee
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11-03-2007, 02:14 PM
| #21 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 67
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As an add-on, my friend used to be highly functional, she owned and operated her own spiritual retreat center and organised retreats for others in different parts of the world. What happened with her wasn't sudden, it happened over the period of a few years, gradually. We have lost touch, so unfortuately, I don't know how life is for her now. em
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11-03-2007, 04:49 PM
| #22 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: england blackpool
Posts: 24
| exactly Quote:
so when you actually consider th8is whole thread all that can be answered is based on proof that you yourself have seen, otherwise its just taking other people's word for it. | |
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11-03-2007, 08:30 PM
| #23 (permalink) |
| Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 67
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I agree with you Mansell. We are all unique energetic patterns of energy, matter, star-stuff, God...whatever. Maybe our spiritual selves guide every single one of us to exactly what it wants to experience through us. Who knows......I don't. Regardless of what I do, believe, etc., there is a possibility that my highest spiritual state will be to become fertilizer for the future. The circle of life......
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11-03-2007, 08:37 PM
| #24 (permalink) | |||
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
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No wonder communication is a trouble area in our society. Someone's gotta figure out a better way.. The vulcan mind-meld? Quote:
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Last edited by qed; 11-03-2007 at 08:57 PM. | |||
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11-03-2007, 08:54 PM
| #25 (permalink) | |
| Member Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 57
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I remember feeling extremely frustrated when I couldn't put the pieces together, trying to make sense of it all.. The problem is everyone has something different to say, lots of audio programs, articles, blogs, books, religions, scientific studies... Ultimately, you realize some people have holes in their understanding or have misunderstandings all together. At that point, you have to start disagreeing with them, and fill in the gaps where they couldn't and fix their mistakes. (Don't argue with them though.. unless of course they are questioning themselves and they ask you questions) Then once you form your own understanding, it is another challenge to incorporate it back into your daily life,or I should say, to let the new understanding settle into your reality and show you the new ways as to how you can live it beyond just knowing it. Last edited by qed; 11-04-2007 at 01:59 AM. | |
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11-03-2007, 11:16 PM
| #26 (permalink) | |
| Banned Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Inside the Container
Posts: 1,543
| Quote:
Max | |
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11-04-2007, 02:41 AM
| #27 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: england blackpool
Posts: 24
| well Quote:
this base then shows how being "diffrent " works. I f we are all individual and non of us think or act exactly alike if we follow this then it shows how we will all believe our own things, therefore these diffrent actings are produced, and it is this way that allows us to accept what to us would be a more reliable and deffianate answer by following our own minds and guidings | |
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11-04-2007, 02:43 AM
| #28 (permalink) | |
| Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: england blackpool
Posts: 24
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this is a great theory and i agree how we then follow to fertillaze...but one thing i have never agreed with is that a path is set i beleive more that people try to set us on paths...the "higher" powers e.g the goverment . but i refuse to beleive that in theses cases thses ceratin people could always be right and that our view is little that more than imagination | |
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