Graditute is Fear

[Max Power]

Many gurus teach that we must be grateful for the thing we don't have yet, but like the idea of giving, these are all based on fear. The sheer fact you're alive is actually a state of giving, you don't have to be grateful for your natural state. Your natural state is one of bestowal, a state of giving.

It is wonderful to give without receiving, it's wonderful to be grateful and happy for your manifestations, but to build giving and gratitude into the process of desire is fear of your natural state.

It's like fear of getting what you want beause you're not giving first, or giving enough or grateful enough. These are all fears based on denial of your natural state. No matter what you believe in, consciousness, god, universal bestowal, you're a part of something wonderous that is naturally beneficial and that's what you are. Just by existing you are in a state of giving and everything within your awareness is grateful for that as you are naturally gratitude by default.

Max

[Angela]

You think about fear a lot, don't you, Max? It is a big part of almost everything you've posted lately. What's up with that?

Personally, I believe gratitude is one of the most beneficial forces in the universe, and something to be nurtured and generated every chance we get.

And I'm not afraid to say so!

Gratefully, fearlessly yours,
Angela

[quoteguy]

I agree with Angela. Being in the state of gratitude puts you in a good emotional state. When you are grateful for what you already have you remember the events associated with it. Usually these are good experiences. When we are in a positive emotional state it is easy to produce positive results.

I don't give out of fear. I give because it makes me "feel good". It makes the other person "feel good. I reminded of a quote from "The Secret". "Whatever you think about, and thank about, you bring about."

I can see nothing fearful or wrong about being thankful.

Originally Posted by Max Power

Many gurus teach that we must be grateful for the thing we don't have yet, but like the idea of giving, these are all based on fear. The sheer fact you're alive is actually a state of giving, you don't have to be grateful for your natural state. Your natural state is one of bestowal, a state of giving.

It is wonderful to give without receiving, it's wonderful to be grateful and happy for your manifestations, but to build giving and gratitude into the process of desire is fear of your natural state.

It's like fear of getting what you want beause you're not giving first, or giving enough or grateful enough. These are all fears based on denial of your natural state. No matter what you believe in, consciousness, god, universal bestowal, you're a part of something wonderous that is naturally beneficial and that's what you are. Just by existing you are in a state of giving and everything within your awareness is grateful for that as you are naturally gratitude by default.

Max

[junyang]

Hi max,
I don't understand your connection between fear and gratitute. I believe that the law of energy conservation also applied here, as long as you are giving, and behold gratitute when receiving, why fear?

[Max Power]

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining it properly.

Gratitude and giving are wonderful things, they bring us joy, they bring us positive emotions and they are always good, but many gurus teach a belief that we must give before we receive and that you must be grateful for something you have before you can have any more.

It don't think that is right, why should we be grateful for a bad thing we don't like, that makes us a victim and means we accept it.

Our natural state is one of bestowal, we're not victims of god or consciousness and we don't have to love being in a crap situation. Sometimes being grateful for something bad makes us accept it and it stays around.

I've probably done the thread heading wrong.......We shouldn't be grateful for something we don't like or want, that places control outside of us, yes we can accept we created it, but not to be grateful for it.

Giving is good, gratitude is good, being afraid to not to be grateful for something we don't like is not good

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Angela

You think about fear a lot, don't you, Max? It is a big part of almost everything you've posted lately. What's up with that?

No AB, I'm not obsessed with fear, I'm just noticing many gurus are teaching from fear under the guise of "you must do it this way" or you must do it that way" the universe won't like it, the LoA can't be fooled........stuff like this means we're victims, I dislike that.

I believe our natural state is bestowal, there is nothing to fear.

Personally, I believe gratitude is one of the most beneficial forces in the universe, and something to be nurtured and generated every chance we get.

I agree, but not if we are afraid of something and hoping gratitude will make it better.

Max

[Angela]

Hiya, Maxie. I've never come across any teachers who spoke of being grateful for the bad stuff you don't want. I agree that you'll probably generate more of the yuck if you insist on being welcoming of it, but it never occurred to me to be welcoming of or grateful for qualities or conditions that don't make me feel good.

Maybe you're thinking of teachers who ask you to look beyond the obvious in a quality or condition you don't like -- the ones who say to look for the silver lining in a cloud. That's a great example of a cliche: some people think a beautiful day means sunny skies, balmy temperatures, not too humid, and maybe they'll peek out at the impending thunderstorm today and say, "ughh. ugly weather today." While that person might not be able to see immediately anything to be grateful for, it wouldn't take too much looking to find something incredibly beautiful and rewarding, right there in the weather. This is a metaphor for other stuff, too, in addition to being a real-life example.

I think, actually, it sometimes takes courage to look past obvious undesirability so that you can unconceal your own gratitude for the beauty that is now. I think fearfulness lives in the refusal to look for magnificence, so that you can remain comfortably in the mundane.

Are you talking about a different kind of teacher/guru?

[junyang]

Hi Max,
I never heard of anyone saying being grateful for something I don't like. Firstly I think that it is important to remain in the 'feel-good ' mood, secondly, for things that I don't like, is it because of a personel issue that I am not looking past the surface?

[valis]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Okay, maybe I'm not explaining it properly.

Gratitude and giving are wonderful things, they bring us joy, they bring us positive emotions and they are always good, but many gurus teach a belief that we must give before we receive and that you must be grateful for something you have before you can have any more.

It don't think that is right, why should we be grateful for a bad thing we don't like, that makes us a victim and means we accept it.

Our natural state is one of bestowal, we're not victims of god or consciousness and we don't have to love being in a crap situation. Sometimes being grateful for something bad makes us accept it and it stays around.

I've probably done the thread heading wrong.......We shouldn't be grateful for something we don't like or want, that places control outside of us, yes we can accept we created it, but not to be grateful for it.

Giving is good, gratitude is good, being afraid to not to be grateful for something we don't like is not good

Max

why would anyone be grateful for something bad? If that person IS grateful for it, then they've got some rather masochistic tendencies to deal with. If something bad is going on, I'm going to do my best to either deal with it directly (if it impacts me directly) or deal with it on an emotional level (if it doesn't deal with me directly). Cases in point are that my wife is having somewhat major surgery on 10.11.07 that will determine whether or not we can have any more children; my way of dealing with that is not gratitude that she is having the cancer, nor gratitude that there is a big unknown about the future of our family, but rather gratitude that we caught the disease in time to at least save her, and anything else is just the icing on the cake.

As to the second example, let's use the situation in Darfur. Horrible atrocities are being committed on a daily basis to everyone, including woman and children, yet there is nothing that I can do; I've got enough on my plate without worrying about that. So I deal with it emotionally, hope for the best, and monitor it from afar.

For that matter, one of my co-workers brother was killed in a motorcycle accident Thursday. Again, in that situation I'm not directly affected, but I made the point clear that I was there should they feel the need to talk, 24/7. That's about all I can do as a person and as a friend, and while I am certainly not grateful for either situation, I do realize my limitations as a person, and realize that were I to take on emotional responsibility for these actions I could easily fall into the 'solve the entire world' trap, and we all know where that leads.

v

[Akashic_Librarian]

Hey Max, I know your getting kinda ripped on in this thread, so I apologize for the following:

I used to really like what you had to say. You obviously thought about what you where saying a lot.

Recently...something just feels wrong about what your writing, it feels like its coming from a different emotional level.

Sorry for the critique but its just an observation.

[Acting Like Godot]

I'm afraid I have to say I kinda agree with Akashic Librarian.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Max Power

many gurus teach a belief that we must give before we receive and that you must be grateful for something you have before you can have any more.

It don't think that is right, why should we be grateful for a bad thing we don't like, that makes us a victim and means we accept it.

As long as people aren't able to know the future, you never can know whether something "bad" is really bad for you in the long term.
I have experienced a lot of "bad" stuff in my life, but I realize now that if I hadn't experienced those things, I wouldn't be a happy person now. So, now I'm glad an grateful for these "bad" things that happened do me.

In subjective reality you experience life through an avatar, while the real you (consciousness) creates all life circumstances for your avatar.
So I cannot understand why somebody who believes in subjective reality doesn't want to accept certain life conditions: it is your consciousness that creates all these life circumstances especially for you(r) avatar, so yes, you should be grateful for all things that happen in your life.

PS. I have 100% confidence in my real "I" to give me all I need (= not exactly the same as "all I want"), that's why I'm not a intention-manifestion fan and I fully accept life as it presents itself to me.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Many gurus teach that we must be grateful for the thing we don't have yet, but like the idea of giving, these are all based on fear. The sheer fact you're alive is actually a state of giving, you don't have to be grateful for your natural state. Your natural state is one of bestowal, a state of giving.

It is wonderful to give without receiving, it's wonderful to be grateful and happy for your manifestations, but to build giving and gratitude into the process of desire is fear of your natural state.

It's like fear of getting what you want beause you're not giving first, or giving enough or grateful enough. These are all fears based on denial of your natural state. No matter what you believe in, consciousness, god, universal bestowal, you're a part of something wonderous that is naturally beneficial and that's what you are. Just by existing you are in a state of giving and everything within your awareness is grateful for that as you are naturally gratitude by default.

Max

Hey Max, this is what I think, I think that "Gratitude" is part of egoic thinking, it is that part of the egoic mind that says "I had better be grateful my kids are well, because they could be sick" or "I am grateful that I have what I have because I could have less" or even "Things are not so bad, I should be grateful because it could be worse".

Gratitude is your mind in separation siding with one part of duality over the other - meaning that to feel gratitude that you are in good health is to acknowledge you believe it could be otherwise. To feel gratitude that things aren't that bad is to acknowledge your belief it could be worse.

So - gratitude is fear, it shows us what we believe to be true and our perception of duality and separation.

But it is perception and perception is a function of the egoic mind (where fear is the motivating factor for everything).

Acceptance or even Submission to what is at the moment, regardless of our perceptions of it, is a less egoic way of being present with what we've created without necessarily holding a belief it could be any other way (belief in separation & duality).

Everything is perfect always, and to know that is acceptance not gratitude.

[ahimel]

Originally Posted by torilink

Hey Max, this is what I think, I think that "Gratitude" is part of egoic thinking, it is that part of the egoic mind that says "I had better be grateful my kids are well, because they could be sick" or "I am grateful that I have what I have because I could have less" or even "Things are not so bad, I should be grateful because it could be worse".

OK, that kind of "gratitude" is absolutely fear-based, and will almost certainly result in you having sick kids, less stuff, and a worse life.

I think the stuff the gurus are talking about is more like unconditional love. It's possible to love someone completely, unconditionally, and yet to still help them improve what they can. It's the kind of love that makes you smile when a child says "aminals" but still leads you to help them speak correctly. It views a person as someone always capable of improving, but doesn't consider any area for improvement a "problem", just an area that could be improved. And since every part of every person could always be improved, a stutter or consistent bad attitude is no better or worse than someone who speaks pretty well or usually looks on the bright side.

Universal gratitude is kind of unconditional love for everything. You can love the universe and everything and everyone in it, love the moment and be glad to be alive, and yet still work to feed the homeless, train the uneducated, and clean up pollution.

[torilink]

Originally Posted by ahimel

I think the stuff the gurus are talking about is more like unconditional love. It's possible to love someone completely, unconditionally, and yet to still help them improve what they can. It's the kind of love that makes you smile when a child says "aminals" but still leads you to help them speak correctly. It views a person as someone always capable of improving, but doesn't consider any area for improvement a "problem", just an area that could be improved. And since every part of every person could always be improved, a stutter or consistent bad attitude is no better or worse than someone who speaks pretty well or usually looks on the bright side.

I don't think that unconditional love judges anything at all, and I don't think it see's anything in need of correction. It may offer assistance if that is sought from another, but it wouldn't think it were possible to view anyone in any way other than perfect and complete already.

Originally Posted by ahimel

Universal gratitude is kind of unconditional love for everything. You can love the universe and everything and everyone in it, love the moment and be glad to be alive, and yet still work to feed the homeless, train the uneducated, and clean up pollution.

Yes, as I said, it is acceptance of present moment, not gratitude. It is the complete acceptance of everything as it is in the present moment, without judgement, without duality, without resistance.

If we remain in a state of still seeing homelessness and pollution, then we are not to this point of unconditional acceptance and love.