going vegan

[karlos768]

Hey there, all.

I have been considering going vegan for a few weeks now, however i am very passionate about food especialy cheese's and i love meat and realy love fish. So i'm a bit concerned that i could not manage.

Also i belive its going against nature, no offence to vegan's and veggie's but, we have canine's for a reason, dont we?

I am considering this because i belive the popular theory that, our digestive system's can't process dairy produce, and i belive it be a great move to make on my journey to optimum health. At the same time, although i may be able to cope without meat, i have for a year when i was about 12, fish, is a hole nother kettle of fish, ( pardon the pun ), and fish is extremely good for you, isn't it?

So any tips, advice, benefits to being a vegan, that may persuade me further would be appreciated.

Thanks all
Karlos

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by karlos768

So any tips, advice, benefits to being a vegan, that may persuade me further would be appreciated.

Think of how good it will make you feel to take that superior attitude and piss off your friends by telling them that you are now a vegan...

If that does not motivate you... nothing will...
.

[bluskygirl]

I was a vegetarian for many years. My best friend is vegan, and another friend of mine is a raw foodist... there are many good websites out there dedicated to helping people to understand the benefits of being vegan. I think it's a great lifestyle choice, but it requires a lot of time and commitment.

I was very close to being a vegan; I didn't eat any animal products except when they were baked into something like a slice of bread or muffin. I went back to eating chicken and fish only and I'll tell you why. To be a proper vegetarian or vegan takes a lot of research. You'll need to supplement your diet with new foods to be able to get things that you would normally get from animal products. If you don't pay enough attention you can wind up short on a lot of nutrients that you need. As a single mom working full time and everything else, I found my habits slipping in favor of saving time and I no longer felt I was as healthy as I should be.

I am a total supporter of it and I think if you are committed to doing it you should by all means take that step forward. Just be sure to plan and read and know what you're gonna need to make it a healthy step forward!

[Ree]

Originally Posted by bluskygirl

To be a proper vegetarian or vegan takes a lot of research. You'll need to supplement your diet with new foods to be able to get things that you would normally get from animal products. If you don't pay enough attention you can wind up short on a lot of nutrients that you need.

It does take an enormous amount of research and work to be a proper vegan. The only true vegan I know is a nutritionist by training. There are certainly lots of other ways to improve our diets. Eliminating processed food is one way. Try to eat food that is as close as possible to its original state. If organic food is available I always select that.

It requires more work to eat healthy than not. Fresh foods don't have the shelf life that processed foods have, so more trips to the market are required. You just have to make the commitment. But it's not nearly as work-intensive as going vegan

[Addict]

Also i belive its going against nature, no offence to vegan's and veggie's but, we have canine's for a reason, dont we?

I am considering this because i belive the popular theory that, our digestive system's can't process dairy produce, and i belive it be a great move to make on my journey to optimum health. At the same time, although i may be able to cope without meat, i have for a year when i was about 12, fish, is a hole nother kettle of fish, ( pardon the pun ), and fish is extremely good for you, isn't it?

First off, I'm glad you're trying something new and that you are trying to discover 'optimal health'. I won't attempt to dissuade you from going vegan.

However, please consider that you don't necessarily have to go vegan to cut out dairy (it's what my blog is about). I also agree with you about our teeth, that is our bodies are evidently made to be omnivores.

If you do go vegan, make sure you get all your vitamins, especially B12:

Vegetarian / Vegan Nutrition - Vitamin B12

Good luck!

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Ree

It does take an enormous amount of research and work to be a proper vegan. The only true vegan I know is a nutritionist by training. There are certainly lots of other ways to improve our diets. Eliminating processed food is one way. Try to eat food that is as close as possible to its original state. If organic food is available I always select that.

It requires more work to eat healthy than not. Fresh foods don't have the shelf life that processed foods have, so more trips to the market are required. You just have to make the commitment. But it's not nearly as work-intensive as going vegan

Really? I went vegan with very little research. Almost none.

I just used substitutions. Boca for hamburger, vegan lunchmeat for sandwichs, earth balance butter, soymilk, rice dream ice cream, amys frozen pizzas, oatmeal with dark chocolate chips, mock chicken salad (delicious on sourdough,) etc.

What's so hard about it exactly? Are you vegan?

[Ree]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

I went vegan with very little research, just used substitutions. Boca for hamburger, vegan lunchmeat for sandwichs, vegan butter, soymilk, rice dream ice cream..

What's so hard about it exactly? Are you vegan?

No. But I understand one has to be careful to get a full range of nutrients. As I mentioned I have a friend who is a nutritionist by training and she is a true vegan. She won't touch the boca or vegan lunchmeat, etc. I don't mean to come across as criticizing those items. Just saying that in my discussions with her, she pretty much views those items the same as she looks at processed foods in a non-vegan diet.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Ree

As I mentioned I have a friend who is a nutritionist by training and she is a true vegan. She won't touch the boca or vegan lunchmeat, etc.

Veganism is different than a whole foods based diet. Vegan just means no animal products.

What exactly do you mean by "true vegan?"

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Addict

I also agree with you about our teeth, that is our bodies are evidently made to be omnivores.

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Every measurable taxonomy matches humans with herbivores, not omnivores.

Teeth (Incisors)
Carnivore Short and pointed
Omnivore Short and pointed
Herbivore Broad, flattened, and spade-shaped
Human Broad, flattened, and spade-shaped

Teeth (Canines)
Carnivore Long, sharp, and curved
Omnivore Long, sharp, and curved
Herbivore Dull and short or long (for defense) or none
Human Short and blunted

Teeth (Molars)
Carnivore Sharp, jagged, and blade-shaped
Omnivore Sharp blades and/or flattened
Herbivore Flattened with cusps vs. complex surface
Human Flattened with nodular cusps

Chewing
Carnivore None; swallows food whole
Omnivore Swallows food whole and/or simple crushing
Herbivore Extensive chewing necessary
Human Extensive chewing necessary

Saliva
Carnivore No digestive enzymes
Omnivore No digestive enzymes
Herbivore Carbohydrate-digesting enzymes
Human Carbohydrate-digesting enzymes

Stomach Acidity
Carnivore Less than or equal to pH of 1 with food in stomach
Omnivore Less than or equal to pH of 1 with food in stomach
Herbivore pH of 4 to 5 with food in stomach
Human pH of 4 to 5 with food in stomach

[The David]

Originally Posted by karlos768

So any tips, advice, benefits to being a vegan, that may persuade me further would be appreciated.

I'm not vegan, but I am more vegan than I used to be and have noticed positive changes. The light-ness of a vegan diet may improve energy and concentration, which is very appealing to me because of my very poor attention span. But it may not have that effect on everyone.

[Amadeus]

I honestly feel that being a vegan is not ideal for optimal health. Yes you maintain a healthy weight and have overall health being vegan if you do it right, however doing it right is the tricky part. Erin, Steve's wife, told me a few months ago on this forum that she was not eating a healthy vegan diet at the time because she was eating too much vegan "junk food".
I personally went on the vegan diet for 3 months. I am overweight and I stayed overweight. In three months I may have lost 5 pounds. I did not exercise, which is key to lose weight. However, at my bodyweight I should have lost more weight than 5 pounds in my opinion. My blood pressure did go down and I usually was satisfied.
I honestly think the most efficient and health diet consists of a proper ratio of carbs, lean protein, and fat. The Zone by Barry Sears seems to be a great diet and lifestyle to live. He states that for every 3 grams of lean protein you eat, you should eat 4 grams of good fibrous carbs and 1 gram of good fat (extra virgin olive oil and unsaturated fats). He also states that we should eat 6 times a day (smaller portions than meals). When we eat several times a day we are communicating to our body that there is plenty of food out there and we will not need the fat for future use. When we only eat 3 meals a day (and especially a larger dinner) we are telling our bodies to store fat because we are eating too far between meals. So a great small meal would consist of a small salad, piece of lean chicken, and some walnuts. The Abs Diet that is also popular goes by this same mantra (6 meals a day, lean meats, fibrous carbs). It expresses the importance of exercise and building muscle. For every pound of muscle we put on it takes 50 calories just to maintain it sitting. That is an awesome incentive to do resistance training along with a great diet.
Now I'm not saying you can't build muscle and lose weight on a vegan diet, it is just a hell of a lot harder without animal protein, period. Animal protein gives you a solid and efficient supply of protein that provides that sixth amino acid that our bodies can't make by itself. It's so easy to deprive yourself of this protein when we are not paying attention with the vegan diet.
Animal protein helps make losing weight a lot easier, however after you are at a healthy weight, maybe a vegan diet is ok........I just think it makes life a lot difficult and who the hell doesn't want to eat fish, turkey, chicken, fish, and cheese the rest of their lives?

[Addict]

I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Every measurable taxonomy matches humans with herbivores, not omnivores.

I've found at least two other articles that contradict that. I'll link to them, but I don't want to fill up this thread with semi-off-topic quotes:

Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?
Humans are Omnivores -- The Vegetarian Resource Group(written by a vegetarian)

I'll delve into this deeper when I have more time. I will ask this if anyone is willing to respond:
What about B12?

You can't live without it. It is only found, in significant quantities, in animal products. Anyways, it's very unlikely someone is going to change my mind about the ideal diet being the one we are adapted to eat. Does that include meat? I think so, but if I found evidence to the contrary, I would definitely go vegan.

[inverse Paranoid]

I went on a Vegan diet as a means to more easily adapt to Polyphasic sleep and found turning Vegan to be one of the easiest and most beneficial things I've ever done for myself. That Polyphasic sleep attempt lasted only one week but I've been Vegan now for over a year.

I lost about 35 lbs during my first 3 months of Veganism, with moderate exercise. Mainly because my diet was so poor prior to switching, and at 22 years old my metabolism was ripe to ramp up as soon as I started eating healthy. I also noticed that if I kept my diet at around 70-80% raw, I would experience some crazy hikes in my energy level.

Going Vegan doesn't guarantee that you'll be healthy, but what it does do is totally shift your mindset on health. Before a broccoli and cheese hot pocket was about as healthy as I got. Now, I consider myself being unhealthy when I eat multigrain flax bran cereal with unsweetened soy milk. From the outside-in this may sound like a bad thing, but it's actually quite reassuring to know that even when I really let loose and eat poorly, my diet is still much healthier than it was a few years back.

People love to tear diets apart and compare and contrast them citing untold quantities of conflicting research and reports. But the bottom line is that ANY diet that gets you away from the Standard American Diet and closer to eating natural, unrefined foods, is a step in the right direction; and anyone who cares about you as a person should encourage you to go ahead and try it.

Being a healthy Vegan is not that hard. Eat organic fruits/veggies or supplement with B12. Make sure you get about 15 minutes of sun light a day so your body can make Vitamin D. And ensure that you eat a wide variety of foods and go easy on the processed Boca and Soy products that are commonly overeaten by otherwise healthy Vegans (myself included).

Regardless of whether human beings are omnivores or herbivores, going Vegan in a non-Vegan world is not for everyone. So, give it a 30 Day trial and see if it's right for you. But don't let some thread in a forum decide for you whether or not trying something is worth your while.

[JimOfferman]

@Addict: apparently, the B12 deficiency thing is yet another myth: Vegans and the B12 Deficiency Myth

Jim.

[Addict]

I read the article and it didn't actually seem to contradict anything I already knew. In fact, the article states that:

-deficiency causes severe nervous system damage
-the primary source of B12 is in animal products
-the human body produces some, but it's not enough
-the author comes to the same conclusion that a "cautious vegan" must use supplements

I'm not saying B12 is a problem for vegans. All they have to do is take a supplement. I am arguing that there are no natural vegan sources.

[NotesMaeve]

I think, by the wide range we can digest, humans are scavengers. Pretty gross on the whole.

But having higher reasoning, we can choose our diets for optimum health and ethics. I don't want to put BGH in my body. I know it's terrible for me. Lots of milk from another animal? Probably not good for me. I don't want to support the slaughter house industry.

Having B12 problems in the past and feeling better with minimal animal sources in my diet, I'll continue to consume a little, but you research and make the choices best for you, and so long as you're healthy, ignore the naysayers.

[Matthew Shea]

I personally don't see how one can honestly believe humans are anything but omnivorous by nature. You can argue all day long about what foods are better than others, but the fact remains that we can derive energy and nutrition from just about anything we put in our mouths, provided it's not poisonous.

That said, diet is a personal choice. You do your homework and make a choice based on what you find. Don't assume, though, that you have to be vegan because humans were only designed to eat a certain way.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Addict

I've found at least two other articles that contradict that. I'll link to them, but I don't want to fill up this thread with semi-off-topic quotes:

Comparative Anatomy Updated. Humans--Omnivores or Vegetarians?
Humans are Omnivores -- The Vegetarian Resource Group(written by a vegetarian)

I'll have to look at these more closely.

Originally Posted by Addict

I'll delve into this deeper when I have more time. I will ask this if anyone is willing to respond:
What about B12?

You can't live without it. It is only found, in significant quantities, in animal products. Anyways, it's very unlikely someone is going to change my mind about the ideal diet being the one we are adapted to eat. Does that include meat? I think so, but if I found evidence to the contrary, I would definitely go vegan.

Seriously? What about B12? I think you need something like a millionth of a gram of it per the FDA..

Check out these stats though, about heart disease, the number one killer in the US.

Number of U.S. medical schools: 125 
Number requiring a course in nutrition: 30 

Nutrition training received by average U.S. physician during four years in medical school: 2.5 hours 
Most common cause of death in the U.S.: heart attack 
How frequently a heart attack kills in the U.S.: every 45 seconds
 
Average U.S. man's risk of death from heart attack: 50 percent 
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat: 15 percent 
Risk of average U.S. man who eats no meat, dairy or eggs: 4 percent
 
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption of meat, dairy and eggs by 10 percent: 9 percent 
Amount you reduce risk of heart attack if you reduce consumption by 50 percent: 45 percent 
Amount you reduce risk if you eliminate meat, dairy and eggs from your diet: 90 percent 

Average cholesterol level of people eating meat-centered-diet: 210 mg/dl 
Chance of dying from heart disease if you are male and your blood cholesterol level is 210 mg/dl: greater than 50 percent

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

That said, diet is a personal choice.

Kicking puppies is a personal choice too.

Food animals are tortured systematically.. when you buy the resultant products you fund and perpetuate those practices.

[Addict]

Yes, you need minute amounts, but you still need it. Deficiency can cause irreversible nervous system damage. I have a friend that went on a vegetarian diet and didn't take supplements. Shortly afterwards, she started constantly feeling dizzy, weak, and lethargic. I'm fairly certain it was because of vitamin deficiency.

The nutrition education levels of doctors you provided is indeed shocking. Could you give the source for that data? I wish they had the statistics on men who ate meat and eggs, but no dairy. I'm kind of tired of the association between cutting dairy and cutting meat out.

Let me say that I do believe Americans consume way too much meat.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Kicking puppies is a personal choice too.

Food animals are tortured systematically.. when you buy the resultant products you fund and perpetuate those practices.

For the most part, food animals are tortured. My landlady keeps pet chickens; the eggs are a benefit. I eat the eggs guilt free.

When I get my own place, I plan on having pet chickens, and eating their eggs.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Addict

The nutrition education levels of doctors you provided is indeed shocking. Could you give the source for that data?

They are from Amazon.com: The Food Revolution: How Your Diet Can Help Save Your Life and Our World: Books: John Robbins which is heavily sourced.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Kicking puppies is a personal choice too.

Food animals are tortured systematically.. when you buy the resultant products you fund and perpetuate those practices.

Dan, for all the reading you apparently do, there's an important one you missed:

How to Win Friends and Influence People

Do you honestly think that such a hard-nosed attitude is going to convince anyone you're right? You come across as hateful and that's a big turnoff.

(apologies to Shamou for stealing his idea)

[inverse Paranoid]

Originally Posted by Addict

I'm not saying B12 is a problem for vegans. All they have to do is take a supplement. I am arguing that there are no natural vegan sources.

That's not true, plants grown in organic soil naturally absorb B12 from neighboring microorganisms.

Vitamin B12 is made by microorganisms found in the soil and by microorganisms in the intestines of animals, including our own. The amount made in our intestines is not adequately absorbed, so it is recommended that we consume B12 in food. Research has convincingly shown that plants grown in healthy soil that has a good concentration of vitamin B12 will readily absorb this nutrition.¹ However, plants grown in "lifeless" soil (non-organic soil) may be deficient in vitamin B12. In addition, we live in such a sanitized world that we rarely come into direct contact with the soil-borne microorganisms that produce B12. At one point in our history we got B12 from vegetables that hadn't been scoured of all soil. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to assume that modern Americans who eat highly cleansed plant products and no animal products are unlikely to get enough vitamin B12.

1. Mozafar A. "Enrichment of some B-vitamins in plants with application of organic fertilizers" Plant and Soil 167 (1994): 305-311.

Source: The China Study: The Most Comprehensive Study of Nutrition Ever Conducted and the Startling Implications for Diet, Weight Loss and Long-term Health Pages: 232, 474.

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by Addict

Yes, you need minute amounts, but you still need it. Deficiency can cause irreversible nervous system damage. I have a friend that went on a vegetarian diet and didn't take supplements. Shortly afterwards, she started constantly feeling dizzy, weak, and lethargic. I'm fairly certain it was because of vitamin deficiency.

She may have had a vitamin deficiency, but that is not to say it was related directly to her vegetarian diet. Quoting from the same article I posted earlier, it takes "from 5 to 20 years of inadequate intake to develop [a B12 deficiency]." Maybe your friend did have B12 deficiency and maybe she did need to take supplements...

...doesn't mean that the need to take supplements is automatically true for all other vegetarians and vegans out there!

Still, I appreciate your concern

cheers,
Jim.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Dan, for all the reading you apparently do, there's an important one you missed:
How to Win Friends and Influence People

Apparently, from the reviews, I should tell people they're right when they're wrong! Those sound like pretty super friendships.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Do you honestly think that such a hard-nosed attitude is going to convince anyone you're right?

That's a good question. I don't really sugarcoat things. I also don't really expect people to sugarcoat things when speaking to me.

For example, I quit smoking when a buddy of mine punched me in the mouth for lighting up around him. Most people would probably take that personally, but I knew deep down that I was doing more damage to myself by continuing to smoke than one punch ever could.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

You come across as hateful and that's a big turnoff.

Sorry that talking about animal torture is a turnoff for you. Regardless of your emotions, it still happens every day because of demand for the product.

Not to mention the human suffering that that results from us feeding so many of our crops to cows instead of people..

Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20 
Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80 
Percentage of soy grown in United States eaten by livestock: 90 
Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95 
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90 
Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 99 
Percentage of dietary fiber wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 100 
How frequently a child dies of starvation: Every 2.3 seconds 
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000 
Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165 
Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56

But hey, I'm the hateful guy, what do I know about how things work..

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Apparently, from the reviews, I should tell people they're right when they're wrong! Those sound like pretty super friendships.

Regardless of the book's merits, the tone of your messages could use a lot of work. You'll never win people over to your position by telling them they might as well be kicking puppies for supporting the meat industry. You also don't win people over by coming across as an extremist. When you do that, you're only preaching to the choir. Everyone else will write you off. You win people over by exposing the facts as they are and showing how things could be better and by making people feel better about the path you've chosen. Making them feel worse about their current choice is only going to create guilt and animosity. You're trying to appeal to people based on shame, guilt or fear. Not good.

That's a good question. I don't really sugarcoat things. I also don't expect people to sugarcoat things when speaking to me.

For example, I quit smoking when a buddy of mine punched me in the mouth for lighting up around him. Most people would probably take that personally, but I knew deep down that I was doing more damage to myself by continuing to smoke than one punch ever could.

No one expects sugarcoating, but telling it like it is and being nasty about it are two distinctly different things. And BTW, if you punch me in the mouth, you're guaranteed to get it back 10 times.

Sorry that talking about animal torture is a turnoff for you. Regardless of your emotions, it still happens every day because of demand for the product.

Again, there's a difference between telling the truth and being nasty about it.

Not to mention the human suffering that that results from us feeding so many of our crops to cows instead of people..

Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by human beings: 20 
Percentage of corn grown in United States eaten by livestock: 80 
Percentage of soy grown in United States eaten by livestock: 90 
Percentage of oats grown in United States eaten by livestock: 95 
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90 
Percentage of carbohydrate wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 99 
Percentage of dietary fiber wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 100 
How frequently a child dies of starvation: Every 2.3 seconds 
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on 1 acre of land: 20,000 
Pounds of beef that can be produced on 1 acre of land: 165 
Percentage of U.S. agricultural land used to produce beef: 56

This here is good stuff, especially if it's substantiated by a reliable source.

I'm not trying to pick a fight, by the way. I respect your position, really I do, but you're not coming across as the good guy. Veganism is an honorable choice and I have the utmost respect for those strong enough to live that lifestyle, but it needs to be made for the right (read: love-based) reasons, not out of fear and guilt.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Apparently, from the reviews, I should tell people they're right when they're wrong! Those sound like pretty super friendships.

Dan, I don't believe in sugarcoating things either. You can politely express views without alienating people.

Does eating animal products from your neighborhood market mean you are contributing to the barbaric slaughterhouse industry? Yes.

Is the industry sick and inhumane? Yes.

Do we eat waaaaaay too many animal products as a civilization? Yes!

For example, I quit smoking when a buddy of mine punched me in the mouth for lighting up around him. Most people would probably take that personally, but I knew deep down that I was doing more damage to myself by continuing to smoke than one punch ever could.

If someone hits me, I'm calling the cops. How I harm myself is my business. How you harm yourself is your business. It's wrong to assault people because you disagree with them, when you can simply remove yourself.

That's just my little ol' veg*n perspective.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Regardless of the book's merits, the tone of your messages could use a lot of work.

I state the facts and use analogies as clearly and concisely as possible. That's true for all of my posts, not just the ones about being vegan.

If you don't like the reality of things you can deny away, but I don't see you disputing any facts here. Instead you're worried about the analogy of someone kicking a puppy?

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

You'll never win people over to your position by telling them they might as well be kicking puppies for supporting the meat industry.

You're right though, a kick is nothing. You'd have to take the puppy, cut off its ears and its nose, lock it in a cage in its own feces, pump it with growth hormones until its legs broke from the weight, inject it with antibiotics for a few years to keep it from dying from its own open wounds and sores to even come close to what we do to food animals.

But that would just be one puppy, not 45 billion a year.

Not to mention all the humans who need grain and antibiotics to, you know, live.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

You also don't win people over by coming across as an extremist.

You're mistaking an extreme situation with me being an extremist.

Declining to use animal products under current conditions is a no brainer, not being an extremist.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Again, there's a difference between telling the truth and being nasty about it.

You're mistaking an unpleasant reality with me being unpleasant.

Torturing 45 billion puppies = wrong.
Torturing 45 billion food animals = wrong.

Feeding grain to food animals instead of starving kids = priceless.
Wait, I mean wrong. Yep, still wrong.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

This here is good stuff, especially if it's substantiated by a reliable source.

Yep, its such a hoot. Those crazy kids..

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I'm not trying to pick a fight, by the way.

Me either. I'm just so over the top tired of people acting like its so hard to do the right things, even when the facts are so blatant.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I respect your position, really I do.

No offense, but don't bother. If you're going to respect something respect reality. Respect the gravity of our situation as a world community, not whatever you perceive my position as being.

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

but you're not coming across as the good guy.

Who is the good guy in this situation?

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

but it needs to be made for the right (read: love-based) reasons, not out of fear and guilt.

Reducing suffering isn't loving? Feeding the hungry isn't? My hat's off to you my friend..

[Matthew Shea]

I give up.