Fluoride Questions

[CoolStuff]

Macke Water Systems
Does that remove fluoride? I've been filling up my water bottle often with that.

Is the only safe way to remove fluoride by a filtration system? I've heard it's bad to drink distilled water though. (so is reverse osmis better than distillation?)

What's a good balance between saving plastic and reducing fluoride?

[Minsc]

Originally Posted by CoolStuff

I've heard it's bad to drink distilled water though. (so is reverse osmis better than distillation?)

It's not bad to drink distilled water...
It will have no minerals, but water doesn't have many in the first place.

Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Water, tap, drinking
If you drink two liters of water, according to that, you'd get:
6% RDA Calcium
6% RDA Magnesium
4% RDA Sodium
2% RDA Zinc
10% RDA Copper

Which isn't much.

Reverse osmosis will remove fluoride and other minerals from the water also.

[Matthew Shea]

So you're sure your municipal water system adds flouride? Not all do.

To my understanding, reverse osmosis and distillation are the only reliable ways to remove fluoride. Of the two, I'd suggest reverse osmosis is far more practical for daily use.

So, to answer your question, if you're using the "Purification" model in the link you gave, it won't remove fluoride. If you're using the "Reverse Osmosis" model, it will.

[CoolStuff]

Damn that's too bad. I go to this place where they have that system (xtreme cooler with purification), and I've been filling it up a lot there.

Yes I'm sure my city adds fluoride to the water, I've looked it up. They always talk about how good our tap water is, but they add fluoride to it.

[hymalaia]

you can always add liquid minerals to distilled water. You can probably add a lot more than the water naturally contains at minimal expense.

As to flouride, this company offers cheap filters that claim to remove it:

Fluoride Water Filters

I recently bought a countertop filter for about 100$. It's supposed to last three years. Does it work? Who knows but I figure it's better than nothing.

Here is a thread from another board with some in depth info on flouride:

"Reverse osmosis" does not remove fluorides

The author reccomends adding soluble calcium salt to your water. He claims "reverse osmosis" doesn't work. I haven't really read all his reasoning but apparently he had serious issues with flouride, based on his website:

fluoridation,fluorides,water fluoridation,fluorosis

So assuming he's not lying about his condition, he'd know what got rid of flouride.

[Matthew Shea]

The thing about fluoride, though, is that fluoridated water contains very low levels of it. I'd suggest that switching to a "natural" toothpaste or watching your tea consumption would reduce fluoride exposure much more than worrying about filtered water. I'm not even sure fluoride is the health issue it's made out to be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to see a study that says fluoride is harmful. There are plenty that say it's not effective, but that doesn't mean harmful.

[CoolStuff]

Thanks, both of you. Oleg's site is great.

[Dan.Linehan]

Steve has a pretty good article on this.

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...with-fluoride/

[hymalaia]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

The thing about fluoride, though, is that fluoridated water contains very low levels of it. I'd suggest that switching to a "natural" toothpaste or watching your tea consumption would reduce fluoride exposure much more than worrying about filtered water. I'm not even sure fluoride is the health issue it's made out to be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to see a study that says fluoride is harmful. There are plenty that say it's not effective, but that doesn't mean harmful.

Well there are extremists on both sides of this issue, so it's hard to get an accurate guage of just how bad flouride may or may not be. However, just cause there's no study that doesn't mean it's safe. I've heard some pretty horrible things about what the flouride actually is (a waste product from factories) but haven't found time to investigate for myself. I mean, the government and dentists try to convince us that mercury fillings are safe, why should we believe them about flouride, or flourosilic acid as I'm told it is?

[Ilya]

Consider yourselves lucky you have to deal with fluoride. It's effects are really subtle at the level you consume it.
Here at Russia they use chlorine to disinfect tap water.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Consider yourselves lucky you have to deal with fluoride. It's effects are really subtle at the level you consume it.
Here at Russia they use chlorine to disinfect tap water.

Oh they certainly do that here, too. I suspect that's basically a worldwide standard. It's easy to remove with a charcoal filter, though. Fluoride is a lot harder to remove. In Detroit here, they're starting to add ozonation as a means of purifying water, which means they use less chlorine (but still some).

Regarding hymalaia's post, I've heard the same thing about where fluoride comes from, but tempting as it is to think "it's a waste product so it MUST be bad for me," that's not necessarily the case. How many other waste products can we process into something useful and helpful? Cow poop would be the obvious example. They make that into all sorts of natural fertilizers and even flower pots (there was a "Dirty Jobs" episode about that). Bat and worm poop can be applied directly to plants as another type of fertilizer. There was another Dirty Jobs episode about those. In each of these cases, we're injesting, albeit indirectly, the contents of those waste products.

[Ilya]

Yeah, Matthew,
I remember one book that advocated salt abstinence. And the argument was that salt is made of explosive Sodium and poisonous Chlorine. And I've heard that the ingridients for Coca-Cola arrive at the factory in canisters with "Chemical Hazard" signs on them. It may be an urban myth, but orthophosphoric acid would be a prime suspect. Many times dangerous chemical compounds combine into something completely harmless and even beneficial.
I thought that fluoride scare is a case of bad chemistry, but having read the evidence, I have to admit, there is something to it. The consumed amounts should be huge to become dangerous, but the whole idea is not fool proof.
On the other hand if something was really harmful, the effects would be clear on such a huge population as in the US, some diseases rates would have sky-rocketed, and all we are talking about is some correlations. And as we know in statistics correlations do not mean causality. Everybody who ate cucumbers died eventually, this doesn't mean cucumbers are deadly.

[medaille]

I'm a firm believer of the "don't use the entire population as guinea pigs" theory.

I would feel a little more comfortable with fluoride if I knew some studies where it was actually shown to be helpful and not harmful.

[hymalaia]

conspiracies aside, the real issue with me is that the government is forcing it on us. It may or may not be dangerous but why is it they can't give us a choice if we want it or not? I just can't see a good argument for what they do. Perhaps if it was proven beyond a doubt helpful and not harmful, and the drinking water was the only economically viable way to administer it, that MIGHT be acceptable. But that's not what's happening.

[MuscleGeek]

Originally Posted by CoolStuff

Macke Water Systems
Does that remove fluoride? I've been filling up my water bottle often with that.

Is the only safe way to remove fluoride by a filtration system? I've heard it's bad to drink distilled water though. (so is reverse osmis better than distillation?)

What's a good balance between saving plastic and reducing fluoride?

There are very few RO systems that remove fluoride to 100% purity for no harmful effect. Distillation will remove 100% of fluorides and fluorine. Caveat: eat a he4lthy diet of organic vegetables, lightly steam so as to preserve its bio-available nutrients and minerals.

[Andrew Gubb]

I would just buy big (as big as possible) bottles of mineral water. Actually it's what I do, because the water is terrible here, even if it has no fluoride. I'm sorry about the wasted plastic but I can't help it for now. I guess I save plastic by not eating ready made microwave meals

[ginkgo]

Macke has an R/O unit that removes fluorides. Water distillers also do. Both of these usually have filters attached to them. The minerals in water are from pollution. Instead of drinking pure water, you can make green or white tea with it and the minerals will be from an herb-- the green tea leaf.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Oh they certainly do that here, too. I suspect that's basically a worldwide standard. It's easy to remove with a charcoal filter, though. Fluoride is a lot harder to remove. In Detroit here, they're starting to add ozonation as a means of purifying water, which means they use less chlorine (but still some).

Regarding hymalaia's post, I've heard the same thing about where fluoride comes from, but tempting as it is to think "it's a waste product so it MUST be bad for me," that's not necessarily the case. How many other waste products can we process into something useful and helpful? Cow poop would be the obvious example. They make that into all sorts of natural fertilizers and even flower pots (there was a "Dirty Jobs" episode about that). Bat and worm poop can be applied directly to plants as another type of fertilizer. There was another Dirty Jobs episode about those. In each of these cases, we're injesting, albeit indirectly, the contents of those waste products.

You can't compare using poop to flouride. Natural animal waste does not equate to waste from production processes .

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I would just buy big (as big as possible) bottles of mineral water. Actually it's what I do, because the water is terrible here, even if it has no fluoride. I'm sorry about the wasted plastic but I can't help it for now. I guess I save plastic by not eating ready made microwave meals

This is a good example of why nobody really has any grounds to assert themselves as morally superior. There's so many small things we do throughout the day that can have such a profound effect on the environment. Sure, you don't eat meat and you're sparing some animals life. On the other hand, all those plastic bottles you use are floating around in the ocean as we speak. That is unless you recycle everything. But even then, at the end of the day our very presence on this earth is damaging just by the very nature of how our societies have evolved.

Sorry for the off topic reply. Sometimes you just gotta throw some thoughts out there.

[firenexx]

Ooh, what if he used the jugs in his organic garden (there are many useful applications, such as filled with water to hold down row covers and store heat / release at night, or as mini-greenhouses for seedlings.)

It's like a big moral superiority math equation!

Of course, bottled water has terrible ecological and humanitarian consequences across the globe. I would rather drink poison than buy bottled water, if it came down to it. Fortunately, I bought a water distiller so I can waste energy and release greenhouse gases while removing fluoride and prozac from my water.

[EternalOne]

There seems to be some chatter by experts now to put lithium into town drinking water now. Apparently it will reduce suicide rates and make everyone more calm.

But is this not just covering up peoples problems that need to be resolved? I don't think numbing society is the answer.

There is a story on this here - “Experts” Push For Lithium To Be Added To Our Drinking Water

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

This is a good example of why nobody really has any grounds to assert themselves as morally superior. There's so many small things we do throughout the day that can have such a profound effect on the environment. Sure, you don't eat meat and you're sparing some animals life. On the other hand, all those plastic bottles you use are floating around in the ocean as we speak. That is unless you recycle everything. But even then, at the end of the day our very presence on this earth is damaging just by the very nature of how our societies have evolved.

Sorry for the off topic reply. Sometimes you just gotta throw some thoughts out there.

Well, you can have a greater or lesser impact. You can't be PERFECT, but the important thing is making the changes where it really matters.

I think wasting some plastic (which later gets recycled) is scales of magnitude better than killing & torturing animals.

That said I'm not sure it's here nor there to talk about morally superior. It's not some sort of contest to be better than one another. You do it for yourself, cause something in you calls you to improve your impact.

[firenexx]

Which is worse, the damage to your health caused by the fluoride and chlorine, or the combination of (a) damage to society's health caused by the ecological and humanitarian effects of the bottled water industry in third world countries (as well as in our own) and (b) the damage to your health caused by the plastic leaching into the water?

In addition, we have the electricity wasted by distillation, or the amount of water wasted by reverse osmosis (I think it's 6 gallons for every 1 gallon purified.) If the electricity for distillation was produced by solar panels, would that make it better? How much better, considering the fossil fuels and energy required to manufacture the solar panel of limited efficiency? And what if the water waste from R/O was used to wash one's car or water the lawn?

(I'm not trying to buy into this whole calculating moral superiority idea, I just think it's interesting to really look at our actions and discover how truly mind-boggling it is to try to juggle ethics.)

[stanmrak]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I'm not even sure fluoride is the health issue it's made out to be. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to see a study that says fluoride is harmful.

There may or may not be studies, but fluoride is the second most toxic substance on earth, next to mercury. That's a fact.

[firenexx]

Matthew Shea, I have yet to see a study that says fluoride is beneficial.

...Amidoinitrite?

Actually, I've seen both studies that say fluoride is beneficial and studies that say it's harmful. The studies that say it's beneficial tend to be poorly performed and/or supported financially by the fluoride industry, and the ones that say it's harmful tend to be from watchdog groups.
Who to believe? Well, the 501c(3) nonprofit watchdog groups don't have millions of dollars in profits depending on the results of the study.

Also, I've seen the CDC recently lower the maximum level of fluoride poisoning allowed in municipal drinking water (without much press coverage, of course.) This was due to an alarming increase in dental fluorosis in children.

[EternalOne]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

There may or may not be studies, but fluoride is the second most toxic substance on earth, next to mercury. That's a fact.

I totally agree. Fluoride is also an ingredient in nerve gas and is the base ingredient in prozac. It is even found in rat poison and .....toothpaste!!! Sounds like someone is trying to dumb us down and shorten our life span if you ask me.

The below portion is taken from an article called "Prove To Anyone That Fluoride Is Bad For You…. And Dumbing Society Down!"
Which can be found here

"Sodium Fluoride is a synthetic waste product of the nuclear, aluminium, and phosphate fertilizer industries. This fluoride has an amazing capacity to combine and increase the potency of other toxic materials. The sodium fluoride obtained from industrial waste and added to water supplies is also already contaminated with lead, aluminum, and cadmium. It damages the liver and kidneys, weakens the immune system, possibly leading to cancer, creates symptoms that mimic fibromyalgia, and performs as a Trojan Horse to carry aluminum across the blood brain barrier. The latter is recognized as a source of the notorious “dumbing down” with lower IQ’s and Alzheimer’s effects of fluoride.Sodium Fluoride is a synthetic waste product of the nuclear, aluminium, and phosphate fertilizer industries. This fluoride has an amazing capacity to combine and increase the potency of other toxic materials. The sodium fluoride obtained from industrial waste and added to water supplies is also already contaminated with lead, aluminum, and cadmium. It damages the liver and kidneys, weakens the immune system, possibly leading to cancer, creates symptoms that mimic fibromyalgia, and performs as a Trojan Horse to carry aluminum across the blood brain barrier. The latter is recognized as a source of the notorious “dumbing down” with lower IQ’s and Alzheimer’s effects of fluoride."

The article also talks about the countries around the world that have made a stand and banned fluoride from being added to town water supplies. Also talks about the 3692 medical professionals who have signed the statement calling for the end of water fluoridation.

[MuscleGeek]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I've yet to see a study that says fluoride is harmful. There are plenty that say it's not effective, but that doesn't mean harmful.

Take a look at these:
1. Brain Biochemistry, Toxins, and Violent Crime Roger D. Masters, PhD, Dartmouth College reproduced here: The Social Implications of Evolutionary Psychology: Linking Brain Biochemistry, Toxins, and Violent Crime (some graphs missing)
2. Fluoride's Neurological Effects Neurotoxicity of fluoride, Fluoride, 1996, 29:2, 57-58 (Editorial by AWB and JC) also reproduced here: Fluoride's Neurological Effects
3. Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats. Mullenix, P.J., Denbesten, P.K., Schunior, A. and Kernan, W.J. Neurotoxicol. Teratol. 17 169-177 (1995)
4. Effect of fluoride exposure on intelligence in children. Li, X.S., Zhi, J.L., and Gao, R.O. Fluoride 28 (1995).
5. Effect of fluoride on the physiology of the pineal gland. Luke, J.A. Caries Research 28 204 (1994).

Just getting started here, not even warmed up. There are hundreds more available at SecondLook web site Second Look - A Rational Approach to Controversial Public Policy Issues, Fluoride Alert Network web site health effects database: Fluoride Health Effects Database.

Books abound with research reports and studies: The Case Against Fluoride - 1. Dr.'s Connett, Beck & Micklem, 2010.
2. Fluoridation: Autopsy of a Scientific Error - Morin, Graham & Parent, 2010.
3. The Fluoride Wars - by R. Allan Freeze, Jay H. Lehr, 2009.
4. The Devil's Poison. How Fluoride is Killing You - Dean Murphy, DDS, 2008.
5. Fluor: Erreur Médicale Majeure - Dr. Bernard Montain, mai 2007.
6. Fluoride in Drinking Water: A Scientific Review of EPA's Standards - National Research Council, U.S.A., 2006.
7. Health and Nutrition Secrets - Chapter 4, Dr. Russell L Blaylock, M.D. , 2006.
8. The Fluoride Deception - Christopher Bryson, 2004.
9. Health Effects of Ingested Fluoride - Bernard Meyer Wagner, 1993.
10. Fluoride The Aging factor - Dr. John Yiamouyianis, 1993.

If you don't look, you will not find.
If you look with a closed mind, you will not see the evidence before you.