Masturbation

[dennis08]

Dude w/e do it it's healthy don't torture yourself.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Let me ask you one question: So you think that being condescending is wrong, can you explain me why? I can trace a bit of contempt (if not some ekhm, patronizing) in what you wrote about condescending behavior.

Being condescending doesn't accomplish anything besides assuring that anyone who doesn't agree with you, won't, because they'll feel more like you're challenging them or belittling them instead of trying to show them something they might benefit from.

I love to work out, and I like becoming more muscular in the process, and to do so I choke down countless meals of plain tuna and brown rice (which you claim is apparently as "instantly gratifying" as a 6 pack of beer and pizza, which I heartily disagree on

However, let's say I meet someone who's horribly obese and couldn't care less about nutrition or staying in decent shape, deep down I really want to help them. Would it work better for me to invite them to come along to the gym with me, take them through a workout, and encourage them the whole way? Or to just say "wow, you sure are fat! Maybe if you tried being a little more like me, you wouldn't be so fat and I wouldn't look down on you like I do now!" The first response might have a chance of putting that person on a path to better health and more self-confidence, while the 2nd will almost guaranteed-ly cause them to never want to take advice from you because they see you as an arrogant blowhard, and also to not want anything to do with gyms/fitness, because they'll probably assume everyone else who's really into that activity has the same condescending attitude.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Truefire

Meh. The majority of people are closed minded, too involved in their own thing to consider something other than their opinion, me often included. Some people are just plain deluded, and its really hard to convince them of that over the internet.

Now I feel bad about claiming that the "dumb Halo kids" are single-handedly destroying what used to be a very creative computer game industry... I can be condescending as well, not claiming that I'm perfect or anything of the sort!

[Brien]

"Different strokes for different folks"

[Max0r]

Apparently, male and female masturbation can both be utilized as reproductive tactics.

Male masturbation primes the plumbing and ensures a fresh batch of sperm, increasing his ability to impregnate a female especially if he only gets one shot at it. Of course in such a case, timing is an issue as well. The female must be ovulating, or near ovulating. Fortunately (or unfortunately) for both, the female will be the horniest during ovulation, which means that's when the shot is most likely to occur.

This is where female masturbation comes in. A female masturbating to orgasm during her period, especially toward the beginning of it, facilitates cutting the period short, perhaps by days. This moves her along quicker on the menstrual cycle so that she is both more sexually receptive and fertile for conception sooner.

It seems to me that due to increasing population densities of humans for thousands of years, sexual stimulation via pheramones and such is increasing for everyone. The mating pool for any given individual has increased in terms of both quantity (number of potential suitable mates) and quality (genetic diversity). As such I believe both males and females are on overload with this stuff, which would induce both massive masturbation and ego/pleasure driven sex sprees.

There is, however, one evolutionary advantage to this overload thing, and it isn't going on a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ reproducing spree and increasing the population at an even greater rate.

Let's see if anyone can guess what it is.

[MadHyeNa]

Hey, everybody,

Being a causal reader of these forums since more than a year, I thought that this is an excellent moment to join in and contribute. It might be bizarre for a little bit that I endeavor and start off with this kind of topic but that’s fine. I hope that most of you and especially the ones that are doing the 30-day abstinence challenge will be able to extract useful information from my post.

First of all, let’s approach the whole process of sexual stimuli and ejaculation. We must understand that complete abstinence is impossible due to nocturnal emissions. That is, the body’s reaction toward lack of sexual activities. Since it’s done on an unconscious level it equals to the body’s need to do it. Therefore, it is not something that we should be ashamed of or actually try to prevent it. That’s the natural way.

Okay, but what happens when we ejaculate other than releasing what we all know about. Ejaculations increase the level of adrenalin, pro-lactin, and killer cells. Virtually our immune system receives a boost post ejaculation. The release of dopamines should not surprise as since we all know that ‘sex feels good.’ Dopamine is a feel-good hormone. Therefore, dopamine is the underlying fact that proves sexual addiction (regardless if it’s self-induced or not.) Dopamine release plays a crucial role in drugs too (Ecstasy, LSD effect, kethanin, etc.)

Dopamine proves the statement why our heart rate gets increased and supercharged while being sexually aroused. All of that happens at the very exact moment when the first dopamine release hits our mind. Dopamine is a neuron-transmitter and obviously their speed is quite fast. It happens just like that. Without these transmitters the release of adrenaline wouldn’t be possible.

Now, let’s talk about testosterone. We all know that muscle growth won’t happen without testosterone. Athletes and weight-lifters approach supplementary diets or eventually illegal or legal steroids, drugs to boost their level of testosterone. Therefore, obviously it is something that we do really need. Testosterone is what makes us males.

A few years ago in 2003 the Chinese have done a very provocative research that concluded a crucial outcome. They’ve analyzed the level of testosterone on a high number of males while maintaining abstinence and then during ejaculation. The results were astonishing. We can sum it up all in a few sentences:

1./ Abstinence from ejaculation until day six have had no impact on the level of testosterone.

2./ On the other hand, on seventh day the serum level of testosterone received a huge boost of 145.7% of baseline. Therefore, the males received an increase of 145.7% on their testosterone level.

3./ Starting from day eight this increase rapidly declined. They’ve backed up this experiment with “suppression of Leutinizing hormone secretion.” This LH is crucial for testosterone production and, therefore, suppression of it reduces the serum level of testosterone to its prior baseline.

Knowing this aforementioned research we can come up with outstanding clarifications that will help us to enhance our lives as males. At first these shocked competitive body-builders, and athletes that quickly realized that without illegal steroids they can achieve a huge amount of boost on their testosterone level.

If we link the outcome of this research with the previously mentioned immune-system gains we can conclude the following:

1./ Testosterone levels rise to a peak when the male is exposed to sexual stimuli. This is a temporary peak that doesn’t last long and nor does it affects further production of these hormones. As soon as a male is exposed to a relatively intense high sexual stimuli he can become more aggressive due to the momentary peak. Therefore, an athlete and body-builder would reap relative benefits if he is exposed for quick sexual stimuli before a workout session. This must be provocative and not releasing at all. It must be challenging, let the mind run wild, eventually until the ‘get-hard-point’ and then rushing to train in the gym with this increased level of testosterone, aggression, willpower and determination.

2./ We all know that a significantly dopamine (and endorphin) release happens post-workout. I’ve read about these “feel-good” effects here in this topic, too. Think of the heightened emotions and mental state that is achievable if a male achieves ejaculation after a huge workout session. Both of these activities release dopamine and endorphin; the feel-good hormones would reach a momentary spike. Also, you’d gain a lot of immune-system boost due to increased productivity of ‘killer-cells’ that could prevent over-training. This is something that every male should experiment how does it feel— post workout ejaculation.

3./a.> On the other hand, an competitive body-builder and/or athlete might go with the 7-day abstinence road. That is, if he is able to prevent ejaculation for 7 days before a huge workout session. He should his 7 day abstinence in correlation with that very intensive workout session. So that heavy workout or competition happens on the seventh day of abstinence. This equals into that 145.7% of baseline testosterone boost. Isn’t this something that every competitive sports practitioner dreams for? He’d gain the most muscle-growth that’s possible without illegal steroids. This kind of boost is not possible via natural dietary supplements.

3./b.> If a male chooses this road of 7-day abstinence before an intensive workout session that it is actually very recommended that he should achieve ejaculation at least approximately one hour after the session is done. This way he does not suppress those LH and, therefore, his testosterone productivity does not takes a hit and the immune system boost via the ‘killer-cells’ isn’t something that should be forgotten about. He will gain more muscle, he’s going to perform better with increased aggression and willpower, and ultimately he won’t experience the effects of overtraining. Also, all of these are ultimately very healthy for a male.

All in all, we’re now done with the workout-related effects of ejaculation. I am now able to draw the conclusion that abstinence of any sort of sexual activity (self-induced or not) is not recommended for a longer period of time than 7 (seven) full days. It is, virtually, from the science perspective, quite silly. It will happen anyway in approximately 14+ days of abstinence in form of a nocturnal emission (wet-dream).

Therefore, I think that if one is aware of the possible gains that are achievable due to the elevated mental states, release of hormones and increased immune-system, it is plain and simple which road should he follow. Now if the male’s main purpose is to gain more muscle, bulk up or succeed athletically, then I’d recommend trying out the 7-day abstinence plain if possible. If it won’t affect his daily sexual activities and social life with wife and/or girlfriend(s), then it is the way to go option for ultimate sport peak performance.

Taking in consideration the forum where I am posting this, I’d also recommend a session of “Perfect Health” paraliminal or the “10-Minute Supercharger” but that’s a bit too short in my eyes; nonetheless effective.

Now I am going to approach this situation from a sort of holistic perspective. Let’s also take in consideration “law of attraction,” “thoughts create our reality,” “chakras” and “energies” for a moment. What happens during self-induced ejaculation (via masturbation). In these cases we exclude nocturnal emissions because they are not something that we are consciously aware of. It’s something we have no control over.

I think that I am not wrong if I assume that during masturbation a male fantasizes. Let it be about his partner, spouse, girlfriend or even possible imaginary characters, who knows, perfect women, or stars, divas, in over-the-edge but perfect scenarios. Everything is in harmony. You do involve all of your 5 senses and you make your mental imaginary as vivid and as bright as possible, right? You want to emerge yourself into your mental fantasy, right? Now, all you are doing is creatively visualizing. And we all know what creative visualization and mental rehearsals are able to do.

In each creative visualization process its main purpose is what really matters. As a result of this we can conclude that a so-called masturbation fantasy session can have two meanings, in fact, even more. Let’s see.

First and foremost you can fantasize because of your frustrations in your social life (broken relationships, loneliness, etc.). This is understandable and it may be as self-induced “quick-escape” from the real-life by retreating into your inner world where everything is in harmony. This is not bad but there’s only one con. You focus on lack. You focus on your “lack of affection,” “lack of sexual partner,” “lack of love,” etc. Now guess what— if we apply the Law of Attraction— `you get what you focus upon`— you attract more lack into your life.

We all know how our beliefs play a major role in applying the universal laws. Whether or not you are a believer of these universal laws, they say, that they do affect the quality of your life. Therefore, you cannot have abundance in your sexual- and social-life if you focus upon lack. You won’t ever meet the desired sexual abundance that you are focusing upon in your fantasized little & shiny perfect world with cover models. Lack is crucial. If you are achieving orgasm as an escape from real-world you automatically focus upon lack. Furthermore, you attract lack. And a whole amount of it, to be honest.

> continued in the post below.

[MadHyeNa]

On the other hand, the second scenario or option is if you actually play with self-induced sexual orgasm to enhance the quality of your life. Therefore if you are experimenting the techniques of Taoism, you are practicing energy-work, and doing other exercises that enhance your sexuality and are in congruence with your beliefs, as a result of this, you are focus on positivity. Furthermore, you will indeed turn yourself into a better sexual partner, genuine lover and love-making machine. The difference between scenario #1 and #2 lies in their underlying meaning and/or place you are focusing.

Since you are focus upon growth in the #2 scenario, that’s what you get. Sooner or later, you will succeed on your endeavors regardless what your purpose is— to bang more chicks or to satisfy your spouse in 99 ways. It is also crucial to understand your beliefs regarding self-induced masturbation. If you think that you are doing wrong by practicing it, then you will feel self-guilt and by this, you are screwing up yourself. You will get conditioned to “just do it” because of the feel-good hormones but as many as time you will do it, you will feel self-guilt. Furthermore, your self-image takes a hit, you will see yourself as a loser wussy that isn’t able to get a girlfriend to satisfy his inner needs, and ultimately you will suffer a drastic loss in your level of self-confidence and –esteem. If this is the case, then it’s a definite no-no.

It is crucial to make peace with yourself. Brainstorm and find your self-limiting beliefs. Shed light upon them. Then if they are self-limiting replace them with self-enhancing and uplifting positive beliefs. Realize what you are doing is for your best; it is the healthy way to live as an active male. Realize your inner needs and desires and convince yourself first and foremost that you are doing it toward the higher good of all.

Now this last sentence was stretched a bit but you catch my drift. If you do it with a sense of self-guilt then it is no point even considering the healthy benefits of multiple orgasms since you are destroying yourself on a psychological level. Yet again, this coupled with law of attraction; you are for sure focusing upon lack. As soon as “self-guilt” is dominant, then you cannot enjoy your endeavors and therefore, you are doing it as an escape from real-life. You are doing it while thinking of yourself as a loser and wussy. It is impossible to focus upon abundance if all of these negative self-talk, imaginary and scenarios are played out within your mind. Yes, you cannot focus upon abundance. You will focus upon lack and that’s what you will attract.

If you on the other hand are looking for growth, then by all means, do it, play it, enjoy it, experiment and understand how things work. Play with Taoism, Ying and Yang, do some energy work and control your emotions and feelings. Learn how to achieve orgasm without ejaculations. Study the old materials. Enhance your sexual performance as a male and doing these, you will gain all of the positive and only positive benefits— healthy active male life due to hormonal production and releases of those specific hormones; you are focusing upon growth and that’s what you will get; you will attract positive results and successful relationships to prove yourself.

This aforementioned case is similar to James Arthur Ray’s “inside/out” approach. I do not know how many of you are actually familiar with his philosophy and seminars (“Million Dollar Mindset”) but he explains that: “the more you grow in the inside, it’s going to be reflected in the outside and, therefore, all aspects of your life will get that huge growth.” –something along these lines. He also points out that if you don’t grow, you are dying. If a plant does not grow it dies. Constant growing is crucial. Keep these philosophies in your mind and apply them to the highest good of all. Grow on the inside and be surprised how much your life changes. We all know this, right? That’s why we’re on Personal Development for Smart People Forums!

Also, I’d like to point out another interesting thing about energies. Let’s assume you are pursuing a relationship. You are very much and deeply in love toward a specific girl/woman (since my post was focused on males and the effects of masturbation on them, I think it is appropriate to assume this; but it applies vice-versa nonetheless!), she’s your ‘one-itis’ so-called goddess that is on pedestal but you can’t seem to find a way to get into relationship with her. You have positive thoughts and you want to be with her for the highest good of all, your love is genuine for sure and you don’t want to harm her at all. You are pissed off that she hangs out with other males that are so-called bad-boys; they don’t treat her well at all and so forth, while you would qualify for the perfect gentlemen with genuine love. Still, she is not interested in you at all.

Now this depends on a lot of factors but the underlying meaning is, that you might get drained into self-induced orgasm just as a solution to escape from the real-world and to be ‘together in your fantasized world.’ All of these are fine and dandy but you are focusing upon lack. I won’t be redundant because I’ve clearly pointed out its effects. But, other than attracting lack, you are doing much more!

You are sending out high vibration emotions and feelings toward that person. You are sending out your eagerness and neediness to be together. You are sending out your intense sexual thoughts and whatnot. Since thoughts can be perceived and received, she’s going to receive them. Depending on your capability to send thoughts and emotions you may fail. You fail to convey your message, but not the actual energy sending process. The energy will be received by your dearly one-itis as a huge amount of energy. Energy that is polarized with negativity—neediness. She won’t be able to perceive your exact message and context in what it was formed (that you actually want to pursue a genuine relationship and so forth), but rather just finding herself with a huge amount of energy.

This kind of energy that does not convey a real message (and since you are jerking off chances are slight that you are succeeding to send out exact and genuine messages) can be overwhelming. Now think of the situation if you are doing it multiple times per day. The amount of energy that you sent out toward one-itis by wishing that you two would be together and by mentally rehearsing the N ways how she would satisfy your sexual needs and primal instincts, isn’t that obvious that she gets a weird and bizarre feeling toward you. She won’t be able to decipher your messages, but she will intuit that something is not good. And that not good feeling is linked with you. Pity you; you are in fact screwing up all of your possible chances to be together with her.

Due to vagueness of our world, odds are that she will feel in the exact same mental states/moods always if she finds herself being around you. The very fact of seeing you will put her in those overwhelming sexual scenes where she does all the work to satisfy your primal instincts. She won’t be able to rationalize, find out why, but trust me on this, she will find you as needy and wussy rather than a confident alpha-male that has his **** together. Can you feel this? Can you see where I am going with this? Good. Now apply!

I seriously hope that you do realize the priority and importance of these kinds of endeavors. Your mileage may vary, of course, but the main underlying idea is about purpose. I must emphasize that if you doing with the purpose of being a better sexual partner as a male and, therefore, being able to satisfy your one-itis, partner, wife by giving her multiple orgasm, and so forth, you are growing in the inside that will be reflected on the outside. And also, she might sense that abundance of energy as a positive one and find it quite caressing; she might experience slight arousal and/or tingling in her sexualities without knowing where it comes from.

If you do it with genuine purpose, being kind, loving, caring and focus mostly on her needs rather than your primal instincts, then she will find herself in a sort of aroused state up to a specific degree (depending on your effectiveness to telepathy) always while being around you. Can you catch my drift? Which is the scenario you want to experience? She won’t be able to know why exactly, but your appearance will generate lust and arousal. Rapport will get easier and you will earn outstanding results.

Be aware of karma effects. Karmic effects are like a boomerang. Apply these with responsibility. Remember: “The price of greatness is responsibility.” Winston Churchill.

I genuinely hope that these 2 posts were helpful to you. My main purpose was to contribute on this subject and shed a bit of light for our enhanced growth.

I wish you abundance on all areas of your life, success in all of your endeavors and everlasting happiness,

PS: Forgive my grammar and language proficiency because English is my 3rd language.

PPS: References for the scientific studies mentioned in my post above:

Jiang M, Xin J, Zou Q, Shen JW. A research on the relationship between ejaculation and serum testosterone level in men. J Zhejiang Univ Sci. 2003 Mar-Apr;4(2):236-40.

Jiang M. Periodic changes in serum testosterone levels after ejaculation in men. Sheng Li Xue Bao 2002 Dec 25;54(6):535-8

Paredes RG, Agmo A. Has dopamine a physiological role in the control of sexual behavior? A critical review of the evidence. Prog Neurobiol. 2004 Jun;73(3):179-226.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Being condescending doesn't accomplish anything besides assuring that anyone who doesn't agree with you, won't, because they'll feel more like you're challenging them or belittling them instead of trying to show them something they might benefit from.

I love to work out, and I like becoming more muscular in the process, and to do so I choke down countless meals of plain tuna and brown rice (which you claim is apparently as "instantly gratifying" as a 6 pack of beer and pizza, which I heartily disagree on

However, let's say I meet someone who's horribly obese and couldn't care less about nutrition or staying in decent shape, deep down I really want to help them. Would it work better for me to invite them to come along to the gym with me, take them through a workout, and encourage them the whole way? Or to just say "wow, you sure are fat! Maybe if you tried being a little more like me, you wouldn't be so fat and I wouldn't look down on you like I do now!" The first response might have a chance of putting that person on a path to better health and more self-confidence, while the 2nd will almost guaranteed-ly cause them to never want to take advice from you because they see you as an arrogant blowhard, and also to not want anything to do with gyms/fitness, because they'll probably assume everyone else who's really into that activity has the same condescending attitude.

I got your point, but I don't think it's really the answer for my question. For sure from the rational point of view condescending behavior may be less effective but you know from experience that though it have a detrimental impact on relations it's very common.

Let's suppose that my post was condescending (I think that it was not because I don't think that saying that something is better and something is wrong is condescending - if you accept such a definition then a lot of stuff here is).
So I can see that you want me to better convince you, right?
You want me to be more effective? If so I'm truly grateful but I saw in your post rather kind of moral indignation.

I don't think that it is always true - sometimes openly condescending behavior acts better it really depends with whom are you dealing. There is even a kind of therapy based on such a shocking intervention.

What I consider even worse is to be hypocrite - to pretend that you are not condescending at all but in your heart denigrate the person, her values, her intellect and so on. I rather prefer open confrontation, 'holy war', fiery debate of course without physical violence.

In what MadHyeNa wrote, what is very interesting, but to discuss it I have to expand my knowledge a little , some hierarchy of fantasy is assumed. One kind is good and one is dangerous. Is this condescending for people who fantasize about celebrities or masturbate to porno?

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I got your point, but I don't think it's really the answer for my question. For sure from the rational point of view condescending behavior may be less effective but you know from experience that though it have a detrimental impact on relations it's very common.

Let's suppose that my post was condescending (I think that it was not because I don't think that saying that something is better and something is wrong is condescending - if you accept such a definition then a lot of stuff here is).
So I can see that you want me to better convince you, right?
You want me to be more effective? If so I'm truly grateful but I saw in your post rather kind of moral indignation.

I don't think that it is always true - sometimes openly condescending behavior acts better it really depends with whom are you dealing. There is even a kind of therapy based on such a shocking intervention.

What I consider even worse is to be hypocrite - to pretend that you are not condescending at all but in your heart denigrate the person, her values, her intellect and so on. I rather prefer open confrontation, 'holy war', fiery debate of course without physical violence.

In what MadHyeNa wrote, what is very interesting, but to discuss it I have to expand my knowledge a little , some hierarchy of fantasy is assumed. One kind is good and one is dangerous. Is this condescending for people who fantasize about celebrities or masturbate to porno?

You're simply coming across as claiming that your own personal ideas of what's "right and wrong" or "delayed/instant gratification" are the only true ones across the board. I don't understand how one would think that being condescending toward someone who didn't agree could have any purpose other than stroking their own ego and making them feel "superior" in some way or another...

Again bringing up religion, this reminds me of hearing something about how "you would understand that what my preacher is saying is 100% true if you just had MY faith... but since you don't, you'll be going to hell, and I know where I'll be going!". It simply drives people away and causes them to not even care about what your reasoning may be anymore, because it at least appears you're rubbing it in their face that you're somehow "better" than them, simply because you have a different set of beliefs.

Personally, I really don't care if there's some esoteric, Eastern/New Age definition of what masturbation does or doesn't do to your body or spirit- I find myself much LESS productive if I don't do it regularly, and that's all the answer I think I'll likely need until I'm 60 or so. Again, I'm not trying to pick an e-fight with you, but everything that both of us are saying here are simply opinions, and unless one or the other can be proven beyond doubt, they'll remain as such.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

You're simply wrong. It's really amazing but almost every sentence in your post is far from the truth. Of course monotheisms (you forgot about the oldest one), are more categorical than eastern paths, but to say that these are indifferent or encouraging is untrue. Taoism is strongly against ejaculation so if it's encouraging masturbation then only without semen emission, this 'unhealthy' type leading as you wrote to severe health problems.

Yeah, sometimes I amaze myself at my talent of being wrong. Although, being a jew (non-religious) and forgetting Judaism is a new top for me.

If I'm so wrong, please point me towards the sources that state otherwise. By sources I mean the scriptures of some of these religions. Or at least an objective commentary.
My opinions about the motives of criminalizing masturbation and extramarital sex, are just that - my opinions. I've borrowed some of them from the giants whose shoulders I'm standing on. My point was to show that there is at least one another opinion on these motives. And your version is not the only one.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now you've rejected thousands of years of Chinese medicine and Taoist teachings.

No, I didn't. I specifically wrote "orgasm or ejaculation". I'm perfectly aware of the Taoist view on the negative effect of ejaculation for sexual energy levels. But even Taoist techniques encourage orgasm without ejaculation. It is integral part of Taoist sexual practices of personal development. And Taoists are very realistic in acknowledging that when a person starts practicing, he should go through a rather long phase, when he has to learn how to control his ejaculation. In every source I've seen so far, this stage is described as a stage of "solo" exercises or masturbation.
Now, in a post above you say that such technique would go unhealthy by my standards. This is not correct. I might have wrote an ambiguous phrase somewhere above. I'll make it clear here. Taoist orgasm without ejaculation still counts as a release. It helps with the most of the problems that I've outlined above. The main problems are caused by hindered blood circulation. After orgasm, ejaculation included or not, circulation is restored to a norm. The buildup of the semen is not as problematic in the long run. It does affect fertility, so Taoists suggest an additional ejaculation before a conception attempt - to get rid of unhealthy sperm. But I agree it is not as harmful.
Still, the cases or "blue balls" (I beg my pardon) are common while practicing. So the practice includes a rather sophisticated genital massage to get rid of this condition. This massage alone would qualify for masturbation.

Oh, by the way, moonlight, what exactly is considered masturbation by your standards? It is possible to have an orgasm without touching oneself and without ejaculation. Will it count?

So as I thought it included removing part of neocortex

Tough luck. But, there is nothing to be scared of. It is reversible.

I'm not a Christian and still consider masturbation as something not to be proud of.

No one really is proud of masturbating. But no one should be ashamed of it either. Oh, I found a better comparison for masturbation, if eating doesn't fly with you.
Crying. As kids we cry a lot. And then, as we grow up, we learn to control this emotion. Some of it comes from maturity, but some, comes from social conditioning. The most famous being "boys don't cry". I don't feel the urge to cry every other day. But at some period of my life I stopped crying completely. And didn't do it for several years. Turned out these were the darkest and the most depressing years of my life. I actually had to learn to cry at the end of this period.
Now, I do not feel ashamed of crying at all, and do it whenever I feel the need. And I'm sure it adds to my well being.
Now, it should be clear for most people that there is nothing to be ashamed of in crying. But some people attach a certain meaning to it - weakness, girlishness, etc. Forces some people to abandon this natural reaction, take it under control. This also happens under the pretext of character building. Leads to stress, emotional rigidity and lack of integrity.
In my opinion that is similar to what still happens with masturbation.
Oh, well, you'll probably shoot this down as well.

By the way, for the record, I don't have anything against Christianity. It contributed to the European culture and to the value of a human life.
However a few topics were and still are treated by Christianity in a very hypocritical and close minded way. Sex is one of them. That's why I'm mentioning Christianity in this thread from time to time.

[Ilya]

Ok, moonlite, before I continue, I have a disclaimer. I'm not going to use my current relationships with my wife as a source of examples for this topic. I've seen your jocular hints at how I should conduct my sex life with my wife and I'd like to ask to refrain from such hints in the future. I know I've invited these comments with my open style, and I'm ok with being open. But I have to take care of my wife's privacy. So whatever examples I use, they come from my pre-marriage life. It contains all sorts of relationships so the argument will not suffer from such limitation. I hope you'll understand.

Originally Posted by moonlite

If you want to involve any science psychology fits here better, philosophy and probably psychopathology. Of course these are soft sciences without hard evidence nevertheless they have something to say about it.

I believe, that behaviorism is one of the philosophical schools of psychology. I think it is influential enough not be disregarded. Behavioristic approach led to many discoveries about humans, although treated humans essentially the same way as animals, and in some schools even avoided dealing with the such concepts as mind.

I never promoted endless abstinence. I'm sure and even biology supports my point of view that one year of abstinence does not kill anybody and does not lead to extinction of species.

Why do you keep using a year? Is it a significant period of time? If masturbation should be avoided - an average male would have to abstain for at least 4 years, or more if in his country age of consent is higher then 16 years.
Still, from a biological point of view if all male population would delay proliferation one year after puberty, the chances of the species survival will definitely reduce. Reduction will be caused by deaths of the males that would happen during this year, and the damage to DNA of the surviving males. If such reduction would be cause a specie to become extinct depends on many environmental factors and is really beyond the scope of our discussion. The greater danger would be for males to be ok with abstinence and being able to lower the priority of proliferation in favor of non-essential activities. Hence the strength of the proliferation instinct.

You mean you always do it in public????

Right. So, when you wrote:

What I can see now is that although Western culture is free from many ancient taboos it does not mean that people are more free in connecting with each other, they tend rather to withdraw. Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

you've used word withdrawal in a sense of "not being physically in the same place"?
If you did then I misunderstood. But I think, that you've actually meant something more deep. Unfortunately, the rhetorical question above lacks this depth.
Moonlite, I actually, try to be as open as possible on this forum, even when discussing such a "dangerous" topic as masturbation. You are an intelligent and knowledgeable person. And I enjoy this discussion, although we clearly disagree on the key issue. I feel that your rhetoric above lowers the quality of this conversation dramatically.
We all understand, that the answer to that question will be no, simply because of the word "always". I think that even the most notorious exhibitionists occasionally masturbate in private.
So what is the point of asking this rhetorical question and ending it with four question marks that signify what exactly? Shock?
Even if I was indeed masturbate in public every time, there should be nothing shocking in it for a modern person free from various dogmas about sexuality.
Alas, I just meant that masturbation for me was never "an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation".

I've taken he liberty and reversed the order of your next two passages and put part of your message in bold to highlight a contradiction in your reasoning.

Tell me why should I not be condescending to the people who choose the wrong path? And why anyone should worry if his not taking pleasure from casual sex?

Just for the record - we are here on a personal development forum.

This contrast is striking for me. I believe that the first step in personal development is acknowledging that there are different paths besides our own and starting to respect those paths. There is no right or wrong in this life really. And I'm not taking part in this argument to prove you that I'm right.
I want to know more about your path, about your thinking, about the reasons, that you've chosen such a belief set. Your arguments frustrate me sometimes. And I try to test them. But at all times I try my best to maintain my respect to you as a person.

Now I see that your patronizing attitude was intentional, and you even seem to be proud of it. In my experience people who put themselves above others had the most difficulties with personal development. I myself made very little progress until I've learned to let go of my ego. Well, this is your path, but I'm not sure that you really need any comments on your ideas from people who have more liberal views on sexuality. This somewhat lowers my motivation to participate.

But I'm still going to hang around for a while. We have a lot of young people on this forum. I believe that your ideas when added to the chorus of Christian dogmatics and old myths can become limiting for some of them if the other side of the argument is not presented.

[Ilya]

Full of unprovable claims. Relationship is at better an area of interest of psychology - also full of unprovable claims. Of course you can reject it in the whole but I doubt it'll make you wiser. There are different points of view. I don't want you to believe in what I'm saying. I want to explain what I think and show you that one can be non-Christian and not dogmatic but still think differently.

This was obvious from your first post in this thread. What I want is to find out what is your reasoning behind this belief or how and why did you acquired it. It seems to me, that since you can't have a first person experience of the phenomenon of male masturbation, your reasons should be rational, logical. So far, I'm still puzzled. You surely do sound as a Christian and dogmatic, but since you are not, I am even more intrigued.

I don't say that relationships are difficult to me. But I think that for many people they are, because if they were simply fun then why anybody should masturbate?

Don't ask me. Ask my testosterone. Why should it's levels rise so dramatically? I'm brushing this off, because in my view, this question just doesn't make sense. No. Ok. I just remembered some sex education book I've read a while ago. There was a chapter on masturbation and besides other things, why married men still masturbate, sometimes. I don't remember all of it. But a few examples were like - to wake up, to fall asleep, to remove stress, to get rid of headache (it lowers blood pressure).
Besides, it is not always practical to have sex, whenever a man wants it or needs it. So having a girlfriend and long-term relationship do not prevent the need for an occasional "release".
But still, the question is strange, reminds of the "Why the wind blows?" kind of questions.

Here you contradict yourself because previously you wrote how difficult is for young males to get a girlfriend. For many adult man too. I don't think that sex and relationship are independent. It happens so that people try to separate them, put in different compartments but this is unhealthy. I speak now from psychological point of view. Namely object-relation theory.

That may be the key to our differences. I am not deeply familiar with object-relation theory but from the logical point of view different forms of sexuality (not just sex) can have different relation with er... different kinds of relationships. I've had highly spiritual relationships that were devoid of any sexual meanings. I've had purely sexual relationships - of the kind, that you call "casual sex". Masturbation is not directly tied to any relationships, but it exists, whether you like it or not.

Maybe masturbation is very useful in learning how to stroke your penis in many different sophisticated ways, but I think that this and other sexual experience is better to get with a partner. Or maybe you think that only masturbation can lead to great sex? Also this enlightening experience you can attain with partner and then it goes much deeper

No, I'm talking about the stage, when you don't need to touch a penis at all and still be able to have multiple orgasm in any part of your body. Or to play with energy rushing through your body, or to move the energy from the penis to the head - this one takes a few months of solo training. This is pretty hard to learn with a partner. You know, girls get bored, when you are sitting there with erection, seemingly doing nothing. Spoils relationships. On the other hand, when a man learns this stuff and is able to channel energy through a girls body - that they do appreciate.
No, not only masturbation can lead to great sex, but it doesn't hurt either if not done immediately before.
Yes, enlightenment experience is deeper with a partner. But you have to walk before you run.

You seem not believe that after some period of abstinence drive weakens. You can also consciously avoid sources of excitement (indecent movies, pics etc.) and at last but not least - find and please your wife

I know that after some period of abstinence the sexual drive weakens. I have a personal experience of that. And I know that "weakens" is not a proper word. Yes, the sex stops to occupy the thoughts constantly. But whenever there is a reason for arousal, the reaction is much more intensive.
Now, it is pretty naive, that the sources of excitement are limited to movies, pics. and mysterious "etc." These are easy to get rid of. You just leave any big city. But there is another one source, which is much more difficult to avoid. It's called women. This one you approve of. Unfortunately the effect of this particular source does not depend on the possibility of a date or even the ability to approach. All it takes is a look. And mind you, a healthy young male after a few days of abstinence acquires a kind of x-ray vision, that allows him to see the woman's body even under a fur coat.
Erection and the natural need for release follows.

Now, I don't know where you live, but in most communities that I've lived it takes at least a couple of dates to get from acquaintance to sex, even for a skillful men. And my teenage experience tells me, that the moment when masturbation is needed the most is right after you've walked your future girlfriend home and got you well deserved goodnight kiss or, God forbid, some light petting. By the time you get home, it's either sophisticated Taoist massage, or masturbation or the pain of the "blue balls". The feeling is very similar to the late aftermath of getting a kick into genitals.

So, I'm sorry, long term male abstinence is just impractical for any setting short of monastery.

[ken nubo]

At one point, I had a weird time where I didn't wank it for 6 months. No, I wasn't in medication, just didn't feel the urge too.

[Shamou]

If it were not for puritanism... we would not even be having this discussion...

If your nose itches... you scratch and it feels good...

If you feel tension south of your belt... you take matters in hand... and you feel better...

Animals have come to this conclusion eons ago... humans are imply a little slow on catching on...
.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

This was obvious from your first post in this thread. What I want is to find out what is your reasoning behind this belief or how and why did you acquired it. It seems to me, that since you can't have a first person experience of the phenomenon of male masturbation, your reasons should be rational, logical. So far, I'm still puzzled. You surely do sound as a Christian and dogmatic, but since you are not, I am even more intrigued.

I thought that this is pretty obvious - I'm a follower of Orthodox Judaism. That's the beginning of the story. That's why I claimed that morals are much older than Christianity. I'm not here to proselytize anyone, I simply think that there are profound reasons why Torah forbids male masturbation. And with your help (yes, it's not a slip of my fingers) I simply try to find a rationale. Maybe there is not, but I doubt it.

You asked a good question, what is really masturbation? For sure Torah forbids spilling seed in vain ie. outside vagina, but then any masturbation technique which excludes ejaculation would be allowed. I don't know yet.

I wonder if I'm really patronizing in my posts or is this my defficiency in English, or is this projection of my readers.
I know how important is to curb your ego in the course of personal development and maybe even it's the essence of it.
So it's your interpretation that I'm proud of being patronizing. I'm self-confident and maybe categorical, but I don't feel any discomfort meeting different point of view. I consider a bit offending calling me Christian missionary. For me knowing what is my belief system, living according to it and speak openly about it does not mean that I'm condescending for anyone.
Of course you can think differently but it's only your opinion.

My question about masturbation in public was a joke, I don't use emoticons every time. :P

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I thought that this is pretty obvious - I'm a follower of Orthodox Judaism.

Oh, my (slaps his forehead)! Of course. I even noticed the way you spell G-d, but didn't make the right conclusion. Frustrating, lengthy, intellectual argument so common for our culture also should have given me a hint

You should have started with this. Because now everything is put in the right context.
Let's face it. You are being dogmatic. And you are being dogmatic from a religious point or view. Ok it is not Christianity, but you are not just theoritising here for the sake of making men better You are not just attacking masturbation as it have seemed so far, you are applying the whole system of Judaism beliefs to the issue. And within this belief system masturbation would be frowned upon. I can understand and respect that.

Having said that - Orthodox Judaism laws are obscure and most of the time do not make sense to an outsider. As a person with three quarters of Jewish blood I feel great sympathy to the Jewish tradition and I hope one day to become a ger. But I will to make peace with the restrictions of Judaism - something that I wasn't able to achieve so far. And now you add one to my list

Since your beliefs are rooted in religion I'm not sure why you want to rationalize them. It is an act of faith. Following the commandments does not require logical explanation of these commandments.

If you really want to rationalize Kosher, you need to think what (besides divine intervention) caused the rules to appear. Many of them seem to be environmental - non eating pork, not mixing milk and meat etc. Spilling semen in vain is just like we discussed it a danger to proliferation. Forgive my goy interpretation of the laws but preventing the life from happening is helping death and that in Judaism is very grave offense. And I can understand that. In Jewish tradition the reasons are more then valid.
But you can't force it on non Jews! As far as I remember non-Jews are not even supposed to know this stuff. They are not supposed to learn Torah until they convert. And converting is a major decision and very difficult this time.

And if you take one issue - masturbation - and try to approach it with Judaism ideas in mind it would not make sense to an outsider who is not familiar with the background.
"Masturbation is a way to touch death?! - Huh?! HUH?!!!" - that's the reaction we are going to get from most people.

So, on one hand these beliefs will not be accepted by the majority of the non-Jewish and non-religious people. On the other hand they are not supposed to follow the ways of the chosen people.

And in this situation I do not think advocating abstinence from masturbation is wise. Most of the people will resist and with reason. Even those who will agree on the masturbation issue will not benefit from it the same way as an observing Jew. Observing one obscure commandment which is not key and not observing all the rest of the belief system is not supposed to bring a person closer to the divine. And educating people about any religion starting from the topic of masturbation seems to me a little bit awkward.

[fballer11]

I did this once as a joke, and subscribed for the month of February (the shortest month . . .).

I lasted 21 days. The most powerful orgasm i've ever had, though.

I am cuious. MaXor (i think) spoke of controlling energy down there. Could you elaborate? When I tried, I was constantly horny, and some semi attractive girls got me going in a flash.

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by fballer11

I am cuious. MaXor (i think) spoke of controlling energy down there. Could you elaborate? When I tried, I was constantly horny, and some semi attractive girls got me going in a flash.

You've got to have the intent to save your sexual energy. When you truly do not wish to shoot it out (on a subtle but powerful level) you'll find that it just won't flow down there as readily as before. Such an intent requires that one is aware of the nature of sexual energy in the first place. You cannot have this intent if you're doing it for moral reasons, or if you're just desperate to stop being a loser in life and figure not masturbating is your quick ticket to success. ITS ALL ABOUT ENERGY. Energy does not give a **** about right or wrong, or success/failure. It just flows. **** MORALITY AND **** SOCIETY. They either tell you to indulge (after all, if you don't you're a bible thumper or something) or that its evil, or that only losers do it and you should feel dirty/guilty about it... They won't teach you the ways of energy, only how to tie up your energy in the social order with mutual energy vamping of your fellow humans with stupid ego ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Still don't know what to make of the "eastern teachings"; I want to learn about them some day and see whats up.

What really nailed my first lesson of energetic education in for me was when I tried not ejaculating for some days, but was bringing myself just before the point of no return constantly. I figured I could have the best of both worlds, more energy and more fun. As it turned out it doesn't work that way. What happened was all that energy ended up pooling up in the genital region, which could be felt both physically and more energetically. I was completely obsessed with playin with my wanger at that point, and spent hours a day on it, never quite bringing myself over the threshold. I was hard almost all the time, and felt this very uncomfortable slightly painful fullness in the ejaculatory plumbing. This fullness is no doubt due to a large buildup of fluid, a true classic Peter North load wanting to be released (and it eventually was, and didn't feel that great either, although it was amusing).

I was constantly filled with sexual desire and what not, mostly on a penile level of course. I noticed that at first when I hadn't yanked it for a couple days, I felt this increased energy all over my body, including stuff related to sexual desire felt in areas such as the heart... very interesting, a full body thing... but once I started doing the going at it until just before the point of no return all of these feelings left me. In fact, after a couple days I actually felt just as drained as if I had gone on an ejaculatory spree. All the energy got collected to shoot out, see? It might as well have already been shot out at that point, because it was all pooled there anyway. And of course that's what I did. Better to just get rid of it when it's built up like that.

The biggest mistake anyone makes on the quest for sexual energy is to

A) Confuse issues. Instead of thinking of saving energy they think of "resisting their urges" or "morality" or "becoming successful" or some other ****.
B) Not cutting off the problem at the source. The way not to shoot it out, is to neither intend such a direction, or indulge such leanings in the first place. It all comes down to wanting the energy for yourself.
C) Being completely clueless about sexuality and energy, which makes A and B impossible.

I gaurantee you anyone who takes up any form of so called abstinance or celibacy that isn't coming from a paradigm of energy is gonna get rocked hard, in some form or another, and the situation will be ****ed up. It also helps to have a very good understanding of biological sexual compulsion as it pertains to evolution of the species, and to know about masculine/feminine polarity, and to know about all the lovely ego-based weaknesses that drive a lot of behavior. It helps to understand the predatory nature of all life as well. It also helps not to confuse love with sexual desire (which can be much much deeper than most people have ever felt, which is why they think its love when its really just a profound sexual compulsion) or with pair-bonding instincts or with attachment/need. You can't be in love or not in love. You either love or you don't love. But let's not get too wrapped up in everyone's favorite word "love" for now

In my entire life I may have had 1 nocturnal emission (I never confirmed it, it was when I was 11).

I did a review of male sexual anatomy and read this:

"Epididymus. This is a resevoir hovering over the testes where sperm produced and held by the seminiferous tubules collect as they mature. Sperm will collect here until ejaculation or nocturnal emission or until they are recycled by re-absorption into the body as they die."

Looks like there's some mundane biological level support for this concept that sexual energy doesn't necessarily by function expend itself no matter what.

The mistake most make in avoiding sexual release is they repress and bottle up their sexual urges instead of cutting them off at the source (no smartasses, I don't mean slicing off organs). It can take years to learn this, and sometimes the only way is the hard way. It certainly was for me. Sometimes you've got to completely indulge out the ass for years in order to finally get it. Repressing **** won't help, it doesn't teach you control. Energy flows.

[fballer11]

Thanks. Really interesting how the direction you are coming from (wow, no pun) influences your results.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Oh, my (slaps his forehead)! Of course. I even noticed the way you spell G-d, but didn't make the right conclusion. Frustrating, lengthy, intellectual argument so common for our culture also should have given me a hint
You should have started with this. Because now everything is put in the right context.
Let's face it. You are being dogmatic. And you are being dogmatic from a religious point or view. Ok it is not Christianity, but you are not just theoritising here for the sake of making men better You are not just attacking masturbation as it have seemed so far, you are applying the whole system of Judaism beliefs to the issue. And within this belief system masturbation would be frowned upon. I can understand and respect that.

Now I feel offended. I don't consider myself dogmatic. Have you ever studied Torah? Yes, for many issues and masturbation is one of them position is clear - it's forbidden, it's a waste of life force, but it's never like this - here is the Law and you have to believe in it. No, you are supposed to ask questions, think about it, investigate it. That's the source of fiery arguments

Having said that - Orthodox Judaism laws are obscure and most of the time do not make sense to an outsider. As a person with three quarters of Jewish blood I feel great sympathy to the Jewish tradition and I hope one day to become a ger. But I will to make peace with the restrictions of Judaism - something that I wasn't able to achieve so far. And now you add one to my list
Since your beliefs are rooted in religion I'm not sure why you want to rationalize them. It is an act of faith. Following the commandments does not require logical explanation of these commandments.

Here is your mistake stemming probably from cliche - you think that Judaism is a religion and you think of it as about something similar to Christianity. But it's not religion - it's a way of life. In fact Judaism is more similar to eastern paths of spiritual development than to any Christian religion.
We don't consider faith essential. The most important is what you do and not what you believe. We are suppose to continuously learn our laws and never take them for granted. It's one of the crucial pivots of Jewish life.

If you really want to rationalize Kosher, you need to think what (besides divine intervention) caused the rules to appear. Many of them seem to be environmental - non eating pork, not mixing milk and meat etc. Spilling semen in vain is just like we discussed it a danger to proliferation. Forgive my goy interpretation of the laws but preventing the life from happening is helping death and that in Judaism is very grave offense. And I can understand that. In Jewish tradition the reasons are more then valid.
But you can't force it on non Jews! As far as I remember non-Jews are not even supposed to know this stuff. They are not supposed to learn Torah until they convert. And converting is a major decision and very difficult this time.

Some of our laws are universal, some of them not, some are easy to understand and some seem obscure at the first sight and even the wisest sage could not explain them - but it doesn't me that anyone should not try.

There are seven mitzvot of B'nai Noah which apply to the whole humanity.
One of them is category of 'sexual misconduct' and of course masturbation is included, according to Rambam and others.

I do not force it on anyone. I only share my knowledge about spiritual realm in which masturbation is for sure not advisable and this is very easy to prove (masturbation is selfish, its function is pleasure and self-indulgence and in this respect it's rather obvious that it belongs to dark side). I added some psychological background to make it more familiar.

And if you take one issue - masturbation - and try to approach it with Judaism ideas in mind it would not make sense to an outsider who is not familiar with the background.
"Masturbation is a way to touch death?! - Huh?! HUH?!!!" - that's the reaction we are going to get from most people.
So, on one hand these beliefs will not be accepted by the majority of the non-Jewish and non-religious people. On the other hand they are not supposed to follow the ways of the chosen people.

That's the reason why I didn't write "Hi, I'm Jewish and We know that masturbation is wrong. It's avoda zara. period". I think that of course my spiritual path is not for everyone, but I want to reassure you - I wasn't Orthodox all my life, I'm not brainwashed by my rabbi or my parents - I've chosen this path because I feel this is the right path for me. And the shift is not so difficult as you may expect. But some elements of my path are universal. Like 'do not kill' and so on. And I am even supposed to teach non-Jews about it because otherwise I would be selfish.
To not masturbate is one of the prerequisites of emulating Gcd. In my opinion we are here to emulate Gcd, Jews, non-Jews, everyone.
I'm pretty sure that He does not masturbate.

And in this situation I do not think advocating abstinence from masturbation is wise. Most of the people will resist and with reason. Even those who will agree on the masturbation issue will not benefit from it the same way as an observing Jew. Observing one obscure commandment which is not key and not observing all the rest of the belief system is not supposed to bring a person closer to the divine. And educating people about any religion starting from the topic of masturbation seems to me a little bit awkward.

I'm not educating here about religion. In fact I'm here for educating myself to be better in discussing such topics. And I feel that I've gained a lot already.
More detailed answer for this will appear as an reply to MaxOr

BTW, for me it's very funny that we discussed so intensively to discover that we are Jewish
Another funny thing is that I found this site because I'd started to get up early and looked for some inspiration (I really don't have to because I'm a woman, but I felt that I want to). I think that many texts of Steve are very similar to Jewish tradition. Of course here is some new-age stuff, but the ideas of being well-organized, waste no time, be focused on your goals and serve other people are very Jewish.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Max0r

The biggest mistake anyone makes on the quest for sexual energy is to

A) Confuse issues. Instead of thinking of saving energy they think of "resisting their urges" or "morality" or "becoming successful" or some other ****.
B) Not cutting off the problem at the source. The way not to shoot it out, is to neither intend such a direction, or indulge such leanings in the first place. It all comes down to wanting the energy for yourself.
C) Being completely clueless about sexuality and energy, which makes A and B impossible.
(...)
The mistake most make in avoiding sexual release is they repress and bottle up their sexual urges instead of cutting them off at the source (no smartasses, I don't mean slicing off organs). It can take years to learn this, and sometimes the only way is the hard way. It certainly was for me. Sometimes you've got to completely indulge out the ass for years in order to finally get it. Repressing **** won't help, it doesn't teach you control. Energy flows.

I agree with you. In fact the reason why masturbation is forbidden according to Jewish law is much more profound than 'proliferation of the species', actually you can easily reject this reason as a nonsense - what's wrong then with masturbating once a week, then for sure I'll be still fertile and maybe my semen will be fresher.

Our sages thought about it in terms of energy. Namely divine energy. According to Kabbalah sexual energy is the way or channel through which divine energy is distributed in this world. That's why is so important:

1/ to be aware of this energy
2/ be able to control it
3/ distribute it further properly

We try not to suppress it but sublimate. You cannot sublimate repressed drive... Then you are cut off your source.

[Ilya]

[QUOTE=moonlite;98342]

Now I feel offended. I don't consider myself dogmatic.

I'm sorry, I've meant dogmatic without pejorative connotations. I've meant that you are stemming your argument from the norm of Judaism and not from your experience or scientific facts you were referring.

Now,

Have you ever studied Torah?

No. I think I'm being dogmatic here myself Since I'm considered gentile I refrain study Torah until I make a conscious decision to covert.

but it's never like this - here is the Law and you have to believe in it. No, you are supposed to ask questions, think about it, investigate it. That's the source of fiery arguments

And a fiery argument we have. I've noticed that you have a strong position on the issue and was wandering where does it come from. It could be from religion, from parents beleifs, from ignorance, from scientific evidence. In each case the useful approach to the debate would be different.
I can debate the issue of masturbation using scientific facts known to me and my personal experience.

But I can't really dispute another non-scientific belief system. It's a matter of choice. I can't say - Judaism (or any other philosophy) is wrong because it contradicts such and such scientific facts. It comes down to "my beliefs against your beliefs" scenario.

We don't consider faith essential. The most important is what you do and not what you believe. We are suppose to continuously learn our laws and never take them for granted. It's one of the crucial pivots of Jewish life.

Ok faith is not the right word. But a commandment is different from a scientific theory. You can prove or disprove the theory, but you don't do that with a commandment. Even if you do, well. I don't think Jewish people are going to change their commandments anytimes soon, and I feel that rulings on sexual life are going to stand.

I do not force it on anyone. I only share my knowledge about spiritual realm in which masturbation is for sure not advisable and this is very easy to prove (masturbation is selfish, its function is pleasure and self-indulgence and in this respect it's rather obvious that it belongs to dark side). I added some psychological background to make it more familiar.

What you call a proof is only a proof in your spiritual realm. In my belief system "selfish" and self-indulgence does not apply to masturbation, something having a function of pleasure is only advisable and so, there is no reason to classify it to the "dark side", whatever this "dark side" is.

To not masturbate is one of the prerequisites of emulating Gcd. In my opinion we are here to emulate Gcd, Jews, non-Jews, everyone.
I'm pretty sure that He does not masturbate.

Another good example. I don't think that I'm here to emulate any supreme being. I have a completely different view on this.

BTW, for me it's very funny that we discussed so intensively to discover that we are Jewish

Happens. But I'm not Jewish, although of a Jewish descent.

I'd like to comment on the other things, you've wrote, but that would clearly be offtopic. I'll go and start a thread or two when I find the appropriate forum. I'll let you know via PM.

[Thomas H]

I just wanted to thank MadHyena for his two part post. That really really made sense to me and despite English being your third language I thought it was very well articulated, probably the best post I've read on this forum.

I also want to share that me stumbling on to this topic is somewhat LOA related, I had just been on a 35+ day streak w/o doing it (don't remember the exact date it started, but it was towards the end of June so it lasted the entire month of July) and my streak ended literally yesterday(I did ejac once during the streak via a bj). I hadn't been on the forums here in quite a while and I come on today after breaking the streak and I see this topic, haha.

I hope that those doing the challenge are successful and I'm living proof that it can be done, haha. I felt really good the entire time I abstained and despite what others have said about sex being on their minds more often I found that I thought about it much much less. So, although I just ended my streak I plan on starting another one today!

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by fballer11

Thanks. Really interesting how the direction you are coming from (wow, no pun) influences your results.

Oh yea about the nocturnal emission my mistake it was when I was 13, if it happened.

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I agree with you. In fact the reason why masturbation is forbidden according to Jewish law is much more profound than 'proliferation of the species', actually you can easily reject this reason as a nonsense - what's wrong then with masturbating once a week, then for sure I'll be still fertile and maybe my semen will be fresher.

Our sages thought about it in terms of energy. Namely divine energy. According to Kabbalah sexual energy is the way or channel through which divine energy is distributed in this world. That's why is so important:

1/ to be aware of this energy
2/ be able to control it
3/ distribute it further properly

We try not to suppress it but sublimate. You cannot sublimate repressed drive... Then you are cut off your source.

How many thousands of years ago were these things said?

[stephencp]

The Buddhists have the best take on explaining why sex (including masterbation) is harmful. From a spiritual standpoint, you must detach yourself from the "world of form" and sensation to reach enlightenment. Desiring sex is the most basic desire for sensations. This is also why Christ said that "lusting in the heart" is as bad as commiting the act.
From a physical perspective, the Chinese call semen "jing", without which you cannot spiritually progress. Bill Bodri has a fantastic audio on sex and meditation/spiritually at his website MeditationExpert.com brings you advanced meditation lessons

Stephen

The Internet Largest Free Give Away Ever - ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[bleachjt]

Well I just did almost 2 months without doing it. I have been doing it daily since I was 11 (I think), but it was surprisingly easy. I did it as an experiment too see what the effects were. I found out 2 things from my experiment. I got less relaxed suring the day and my sleep suffered as well. When I finally started again, the release was not good at all. It took a week to get back to "normal" with a wonderful release. It seems to get better every single day.

I am continuing to do it now because I am much better in social situations, I feel much more relaxed in life and in much better shape, not to mention enough sleep.

Just my 2 cents. Maybe it is different for other people. Let us know how it goes.

[Chinese Dragon]

This is something that I've never been able to understand: Why exactly do people (especially Christians) view this as sinful? I just don't get it.

[Christian223]

Im a Christian, and its not sinful, the problem is that some christian make up stuff without reading what the bible says, or they would exagerate what the bible says, but you wont find a single verse on the bible that says that sexuality or masturbation is wrong.

The big problem i belive are previous myth about masturbation. In previous centuries people made up ideas that masturbation caused insanity, loss of hear, diseases and crazy stuff like that, then our parents kept that negative idea about masturbation and it has been passed from generation through generation.