Masturbation

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Moonlite, I actually agree with some of your ideas. The theory of splitting is interesting.
However it seems to me that using these arguments to condemn masturbation is an overkill and leads to a comic effect.

I think that you don't miss the pieces of irony in my posts

Originally Posted by Ilya

Bringing higher matters to sex, should happen after basic sexual problems are sorted out. And the most basic problem of sex for most men is its insufficiency.
You do not talk about high cuisine to a starving person. And after a couple of days, a relatively young man who hadn't have release is starving for it.

So if someone does not have a girlfriend, they should masturbate and then, when satisfied, they would be able to think about splitting themselves, about whether sex is about animalistic instincts or the connection with other soul.

I never wrote that you have to resign from sex - I think that for anyone who wants to have sex (especially if his 'starving') better is to find a girlfriend.
You know - the sex drive is only instinct which decreases when not satisfied, that's also the great difference from other human needs like food or water. Of course not after two days or two weeks of abstinence, maybe 3 months can bring substantial results. It does not mean that if for you guys is so difficult - it's utterly impossible.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Without partner, these thoughts would be theoretic, but so are your attempts at male view of the situation.

So go ahead and find some nice girl

Originally Posted by Ilya

The truth is - you start with making peace with your inner animal. The human in us is just a few thousands years old, and in sexual area we are still very close to animals. Being ashame of it is social conditioning and leads to disjointed and problems in sex area. Accepting the primal nature of sex frees the mind from upholding social dogmas. It allows to "be in the zone" during sex, to experience total immersion. Even the connection you are talking about becomes ultimate, when the chatter inside my head shuts up and suddenly, two souls merge into one, two breaths become the one, two minds and two hearts become the one and bodies seem to disappear altogether.

Then, when this becomes the usual, it is possible to become conscious of what's happening. Conscious in a very special, non-verbal way. Then it is possible to elevate the natural act to the level of art and transcendence.

To start with as I might say top down approach, seems unreasonable, at least from the male point of view.

I disagree with you. First - you, as a human have no faintest idea what does it mean to be an animal. You can only mimic them (or rather what you have seen on Discovery channel) and you do if you resign from exercising your free will. But still you are not animal but a man who behaves like his imagery of animal behaviour. It's a kind of cliche to think of a man as a very close to animals in sexual matters, it's only kind of theoretical frame which a not-good-at-all makeshift for even more disturbed Christian view. Let me give you one example. Think about rape. 'Animalistic behaviour' would be taking lonely woman when she's not guarded by other men and rape her. But it's relatively rare - the most of rape cases occurs among people who at least know each other. Not necessarily very well, but at least a bit of seduction had taken place. Sometimes they are already married. Why? IMHO because in sex of humans always involved is a symbolic layer. A rape never is a plain realization of an animal urge - unless you are retarded and have no idea of the rules of society - it involves a domination-submission game and so on.
You cannot turn back the time and be back on the trees. And I even don't want to.

[moonlite]

I want to add something to my previous post.

What really differs man experience of sex from animal one?

For me the most essential difference is that man can assign a meaning to it, an animal never does it. We can see in this thread how different and various meanings can be associated with sex and I'm pretty sure that there are plenty of them which were not mentioned.

Even assuming that sex has no deeper meaning at all and is purely physiological phenomenon useful in releasing some tension is also based on some (very selectively chosen) scientific knowledge and has nothing to do with the pure, so called 'natural' worldview.

Nowadays this kind of thinking gains status of common sense and becomes a part of social conditioning as well. Through advertisments, movies, tv we receive the message that sex is essential to our happiness, our well-being and not having sex for some time means that you are a kind of outcast, dork or oaf. Which is of course completely untrue.

For me if you prefer lower quality pleasures like masturbation, casual sex and so on you simply miss the oportunity of experiencing something more exciting and demanding like building healthy, strong relationship.

The choice is always yours. Maybe for many people it's too difficult, they are too strongly conditioned to not fear that if they will not masturbate the sperm stored will eventually blow up their brains.

[Erki]

Nah, it's not so much difficult, it just gets annoying after a while to walk around with an erection all the time.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I think that you don't miss the pieces of irony in my posts

May be But you write with such zeal I take it serious, just in case.

I never wrote that you have to resign from sex

Neither do the people who accept masturbation.

- I think that for anyone who wants to have sex (especially if his 'starving') better is to find a girlfriend.

Yeah. Get a girlfriend. Just like that. Of course this is better. Unfortunately it is hardest for those who are "starving" the most - teens. So you really think that anyone actually chooses masturbation over getting a girlfriend? You know, getting a girlfriend requires some skill, and if I may remind you, these days it may take several years between being able to have a girlfriend to kiss and spend time together and being able to have sex. I think a lucky 10 year old can have a girlfriend. I'm not sure when kids start to have sex these days in the US.

You know - the sex drive is only instinct which decreases when not satisfied, that's also the great difference from other human needs like food or water. Of course not after two days or two weeks of abstinence, maybe 3 months can bring substantial results. It does not mean that if for you guys is so difficult - it's utterly impossible.

Right. 3 months. You know after a couple of weeks of fasting, you are not hungry anymore and can go on for several weeks more. Then there is this little thing called death happens, but the instinct is long gone.
Of course, nobody dies from abstinence, but there are major health problems associated with it. Fortunately there is no way to force it really beyond the point of wet dream. The body is protecting itself from the negative effects of abstinense. And the stress of abstinence is always there. Now if there is the easy and natural way to fight this stress, why not do it? Why take the long and unnatural way, when there is a straightforward one?

So go ahead and find some nice girl

I have a wife thank you very much. But, go tell this to desperate 16 year old, who happens to be smart in science, but not smart with girls. It would take him several months to get a girlfriend if he starts learning. And being sexually frustrated does not help - makes him doing stupid things.

I disagree with you. First - you, as a human have no faintest idea what does it mean to be an animal. You can only mimic them (or rather what you have seen on Discovery channel) and you do if you resign from exercising your free will. But still you are not animal but a man who behaves like his imagery of animal behavior.

Actually I have no faintest idea what does it mean to be human, for that matter. I hope to figure the bits and pieces of it during my lifetime.

Having said that, it is not that hard to get to the animal level of behavior. I've owned a dog, and had a lot of time to watch it and to study from it. I know how it feeds, I know it breathes, I know it doesn't think.
There are techniques that let you enter the "animal state" and go way beyond what can be seen on a Discovery channel.

It's a kind of cliche to think of a man as a very close to animals in sexual matters, it's only kind of theoretical frame which a not-good-at-all makeshift for even more disturbed Christian view. Let me give you one example. Think about rape. 'Animalistic behaviour' would be taking lonely woman when she's not guarded by other men and rape her. But it's relatively rare - the most of rape cases occurs among people who at least know each other. Not necessarily very well, but at least a bit of seduction had taken place. Sometimes they are already married.

Wrong. Or at least bad example. Even in animal kingdom rape is not common. This is one bit that can clearly be seen on the Discovery channel. Females choose the males who compete for the females attention. This is the fundamental property of gender reproduction.

Why? IMHO because in sex of humans always involved is a symbolic layer.

Now, "always" is a very big word. And I'm not quite sure what symbolic layer are you talking about. I'm pretty sure, I can feel sexual arousal at a glance of a nice and absolutely unfamiliar female... let me say... body, usually seen from behind. I have no idea, what symbolic layers involved there.

A rape never is a plain realization of an animal urge - unless you are retarded and have no idea of the rules of society - it involves a domination-submission game and so on.

Exactly. Rape is built on top of the animal instincts. Animal females do not go
to the lair of a male, who they don't see as a sexual partner. They do not let males make their advances if they do not like them. They hit the male with claws and bite him till he bleeds. It is in human society, females are forced to be nice to an unworthy partner instead of clawing his face at a mere hint of inappropriate advances.

You cannot turn back the time and be back on the trees. And I even don't want to.

This is what I call human arrogance . It is not even our ancestors living on trees, it was our own species. There is nothing to turn back, really. No significant time has passed. What we call "morale" is just 2007 years old. Protecting the different versions of this morale has lead to atrocities unspeakable in the nature kingdom.
And there is no contradiction between acknowledging our nature and advancing our civilization. Roman Empire was one of the pinnacles of human civilization, however it was devoid of hypocrisy we are dealing with these days.

It all comes down to what we believe, but having a part of yourself and clearly marking it as bad... Well, I believe it is bad for whoever does it. Knowing yourself, both animal and human traits is essential for growth. Shutting some parts away is harmful for growth. Then everyone decides for themselves.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

I want to add something to my previous post.

What really differs man experience of sex from animal one?
For me the most essential difference is that man can assign a meaning to it, an animal never does it.

That is true. But it is not always an advantage of human intelligence. Most of the time we are attaching false meanings to things.

Even assuming that sex has no deeper meaning at all and is purely physiological phenomenon useful in releasing some tension is also based on some (very selectively chosen) scientific knowledge and has nothing to do with the pure, so called 'natural' worldview.

Err. I'm sorry, where did this come from? The so called "natural" worldview states that sex has not deeper meaning other then making babies. This is called proliferation instinct. Are you going to argue with this? You can attach any meaning to it, if you want it, but this one is given.

Humans indeed are abstraction machines. Take hunger. It has no meaning other then to make us get food. But humans abstracted the pleasure associated with eating and created a whole culinary art out of it.
Is it good? Can't say. This is a whole avenue of personal growth to pursue the good taste. But when it comes to a situation when people wouldn't eat something if is does not have a pleasant taste, this is an illusion of growth, it is actually a form of degradation.

Coming back to sex. It's purpose is to breed. The rest is attached meanings.
Some of them are benefitial, some of them harmful. And our strength should be in being free from these attachments and being able to choose what meanings we attach to sex or any other activity.
Currently the huge layer of meaning attached to sex is the layer of social conditioning. Debates on monogamy-polygamy, homosexuality, masturbation, age of consent are part of it. And we've started tackling these issues mere hundred years ago at most. Speak about turning the time back.

Nowadays this kind of thinking gains status of common sense and becomes a part of social conditioning as well.

In a version that I wrote above it is freeing from social conditioning.

Through advertisments, movies, tv we receive the message that sex is essential to our happiness, our well-being and not having sex for some time means that you are a kind of outcast, dork or oaf. Which is of course completely untrue.

Here I completely agree with you. But then you take step further and say:

For me if you prefer lower quality pleasures like masturbation, casual sex and so on

This is the same kind of social conditioning. You are implying that only sex inside long relationship is essential to our happiness and masturbating and having casual sex means that you are a kind of outcast, dork or oaf, at least in a personal development area, which is of course completely untrue.

I should note that these days most long relationships are starting with casual sex.

you simply miss the oportunity of experiencing something more exciting and demanding like building healthy, strong relationship.

Why do you make solo practices and casual sex mutually exclusive with building a relationship?! Why do you substitute word sex with word relationship? Sex is not just about relationships, and relationships are not just about sex, although sex and relationships do contribute to each other.
And talking just about the quality of sex I have a strong feeling that both male masturbation and having multiple partners before entering long relationship helps. Not necessary, but helps.

The choice is always yours. Maybe for many people it's too difficult, they are too strongly conditioned to not fear that if they will not masturbate the sperm stored will eventually blow up their brains.

Oh, come on! Nobody masturbates because they fear that sperm will blow up their brain. As nobody eats because they are afraid to die from hunger.
People do it when they feel the need to do it. This need can be controlled, of course, but there is a point when controlling it becomes the waste of time and willpower and the returns diminish below any reasonable levels.

[Erock]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Nature wants us to be addicted to sex to preserve the species.

I'm excited that this thread got so big. As an 18 year old male, this is an issue for me, and this quote I think sums it up. The question we have to ask ourselves as aware human beings is, should we be addicted to it or not??

Whenever we say "addiction" everyone shutters, but in reality, I don't think being addicted to masturbating or sex is that bad of a thing. A man who masturbates once a day is shunned by society, but a man who has sex once a day is a pimp, player, mack, exc... Physically speaking, and putting all of the ego boosts from real sex aside, it is the same thing.

Based on personal experience, I'm not sure how sexual energy works. I don't think it's as simple as, you release -> you lose energy. I think I said this in another thread, but people who are highly sexed, and those who abstain from sex both seem to have more of an energy boost that regular people.

Who knows?? Hopefully someday we'll figure it out, but in the meantime, I'm gonna go meet some beautiful babies.

Erock

[Truefire]

I too, jerk to gherkin. I'm totally against repressing sexuality, but I have noticed a drop in energetic "fullness" after a one hander.

I'm past the "right or wrong" stage that most guys face.

When you really strip it down past all the cultures and dogmas that have plagued masturbation there really is nothing wrong with the practice. When you really think about it there is nothing right about it either. Nature (or God) created animals and human animals, both have gay sex and pleasure themselves, regardless of human cultural ideals. Masturbation is just there. You can do it or not, it is your choice.

You should figure out why YOU choose to masturbate. Find out just why its such a need for you. How does it serve you? It is for sexual release? Or is it to space yourself out in a subtle way? I think they both boil down to the same thing. (Don't tell me you do it for the quoted health benefits or I'm going to have to smack you through your screen)

Does it make you a better person? If so, then wank away son.

If you find yourself more motivated to be all you can be when you don't slap the one-eyed snake, then you shouldn't. I'm one of the latter case, so I'm joining the 30day challenge here a little late. I think in the last few years the longest I've ever gone without jerking off is 20 days. I didn't succumb to sexual desire(read: I couldn't find a girlfriend), I caved and numbed myself through self gratification.

Wet dreams and unconscious lusting don't count unless you are a lucid dreamer

[Truefire]

And now, my take on sexual energy, at least from the masculine perspective.

There is a polarity between masculine and feminine energy. Like Yin and Yang. They are both opposite and complementary. They are also naturally attracted to one another. Masculine men are attracted to feminine women and vice versa. Also, feminine men are attracted to masculine women and vice versa.
For example, the well put together business women (masculine) is more attracted to the starry eyed sensitive artist guy (feminine) than her male boss(masculine). In a more conventional (and general) sense, women in general are more attracted to older men who have their life in order(masculine traits), and those men are more attracted to younger, full women in the flow of feminine energy.

This masculine feminine polarity can be extended to the masculine relationship with the world in general. Pure Consciousness being the masculine, everything else being the feminine. Masculine emptiness, feminine fullness. Feminine women are just extremely concentrated forms of feminine energy, so in actuality there is little difference between your sexual tension with your woman, and your passion for the world. As Napoleon Hill mentioned, successful people are usually highly sexed as well.

Imagine a very successful, self directed man in charge of his life. The kind of guy that knows what he wants and goes after it, without hesitation or regret. He stands tall, is immediately respected, and commands the world with his conscious presence. You know, that guy every feminine girl wants and who other guys wish they could be. There is a reason women find that kind of guy sexy.

The natural masculine desire is the release of tension. All our lives are dedicated to creating and releasing this tension. We create hurdles and challenges to overcome. We need more money, so we make a plan and stick to it until it comes to fruition. Then we think that we will be able to finally relax being financially secure, but of course there is something else to conquer after that. Tony Robbin's calls those "quality problems." With each greater task to accomplish or goal to conquer, a greater tension between the masculine and feminine must be withstood. Greater goals require greater passion, and a greater ability to handle that tension between the masculine and feminine as the stakes grow ever greater.

People both fear and desire that heightened sexual tension. Sure, you would love to be with a supermodel, but do you think you could handle her for even a day? Sure, you would love to be the CEO of a multi-million dollar company, but could you take that stress? On one hand you enjoy a greater quality of life, on the other you have to face that responsibility to maintain that tension and pressure and not give in to the vices of life.

Masturbation is a subtle way to distract yourself from living life the way you want to deep down. The orgasm of masturbation is usually quick and to the point. Build up that tension using whatever lame fantasy you choose. lube up and stroke the shaft until you can't take it anymore and the dam breaks, you squirt your load in some lame excuse of an orgasm and you are finally freed of tension. Congratulations, you've mollified yourself. You have undercut your ability to handle sexual tension, and you have further ingrained a habit of breaking tension prematurely.

Do you seriously imagine yourself in the future, successful, mutually sexually fulfilled by a wonderful woman, and still undertaking such a selfish and pointless ritual?

Masculine/feminine theory borrowed in mostly from David Deida. Opinions my own.

[moonlite]

Truefire I agree with you.

I was unable to put it so clearly.

Why do the most spiritual disciplines forbid masturbation?

Because the sexual drive is so strong it creates an excellent opportunity to train your will.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Right. 3 months. You know after a couple of weeks of fasting, you are not hungry anymore and can go on for several weeks more. Then there is this little thing called death happens, but the instinct is long gone.
Of course, nobody dies from abstinence, but there are major health problems associated with it. Fortunately there is no way to force it really beyond the point of wet dream. The body is protecting itself from the negative effects of abstinense. And the stress of abstinence is always there. Now if there is the easy and natural way to fight this stress, why not do it? Why take the long and unnatural way, when there is a straightforward one?

Can you name one, just one health problem which comes from let's say one year abstinence from sex? I do not consider wet dreams as a health problem, it's rather an issue for washer.

Actually I have no faintest idea what does it mean to be human, for that matter. I hope to figure the bits and pieces of it during my lifetime.

what can I say? I feel sorry for you

Having said that, it is not that hard to get to the animal level of behavior. I've owned a dog, and had a lot of time to watch it and to study from it. I know how it feeds, I know it breathes, I know it doesn't think.
There are techniques that let you enter the "animal state" and go way beyond what can be seen on a Discovery channel.

I'm very interested in these techniques, can you give me a link?
Unless they involve removing a huge part of my neocortex...

Wrong. Or at least bad example. Even in animal kingdom rape is not common. This is one bit that can clearly be seen on the Discovery channel. Females choose the males who compete for the females attention. This is the fundamental property of gender reproduction.

You are right this is a bad example. Actually after I wrote this I started to think that in animal kingdom the main purpose of sex is what you have written.

This is what I call human arrogance . It is not even our ancestors living on trees, it was our own species. There is nothing to turn back, really. No significant time has passed. What we call "morale" is just 2007 years old. Protecting the different versions of this morale has lead to atrocities unspeakable in the nature kingdom.
And there is no contradiction between acknowledging our nature and advancing our civilization. Roman Empire was one of the pinnacles of human civilization, however it was devoid of hypocrisy we are dealing with these days.

I disagree, the morale is much more older and it does not condemn sexuality in itself

[Truefire]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Why do the most spiritual disciplines forbid masturbation?

Because it distracts you from prayer. Because it clouds the mind. Because it causes you to lose qi from your tanden, whatever.

Most western spiritual disciplines originated in cultures where people could not grasp the concept of sexuality properly, they had no basis for it. Historically, sex is a taboo subject, speaking too liberally could get you killed.

However, in eastern religions/philosophies sexuality is discussed in depth. (ie. tantric hinduism/buddhism, taoism, but not all sects of those) Masturbation is included in certain practices, however ejaculation is usually avoided.

Don't quote me, this is second(third?)hand knowledge and I have never seen a monk bragging about his sexual prowess...

You can quote me on this: I believe that we should all have more sex. If we all could get some, the world would be a happier place. Thats a fact.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

That is true. But it is not always an advantage of human intelligence. Most of the time we are attaching false meanings to things.

Yes, you're right.

Err. I'm sorry, where did this come from? The so called "natural" worldview states that sex has not deeper meaning other then making babies. This is called proliferation instinct. Are you going to argue with this? You can attach any meaning to it, if you want it, but this one is given.

Now, I'm lost - can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you name 'natural' in this case.
Anyway, in my worldview sex means much more than making babies, afterall I'm not an animal.

Humans indeed are abstraction machines. Take hunger. It has no meaning other then to make us get food. But humans abstracted the pleasure associated with eating and created a whole culinary art out of it.
Is it good? Can't say. This is a whole avenue of personal growth to pursue the good taste. But when it comes to a situation when people wouldn't eat something if is does not have a pleasant taste, this is an illusion of growth, it is actually a form of degradation.

I think that this is a wrong comparison. I deem comparing food to sex very misleading. These are very different needs. A one year abstinence won't kill you, but 30 days without food probably will.

Coming back to sex. It's purpose is to breed. The rest is attached meanings.
Some of them are benefitial, some of them harmful. And our strength should be in being free from these attachments and being able to choose what meanings we attach to sex or any other activity.

I'm glad that you wrote it. If that is the case what's the point of masturbation? It does not lead to proliferation of species. The more so - if compulsive it can be even harmful to it.

Currently the huge layer of meaning attached to sex is the layer of social conditioning. Debates on monogamy-polygamy, homosexuality, masturbation, age of consent are part of it. And we've started tackling these issues mere hundred years ago at most. Speak about turning the time back.

Maybe now this debate is louder, but I'm sure that it lasts far more longer, about 3-4 thousand of years.

In a version that I wrote above it is freeing from social conditioning.

I'm not sure if you can truly free yourself from social conditioning. I don't consider it something wrong, it depends what kind of society it is. What I can see now is that although Western culture is free from many ancient taboos it does not mean that people are more free in connecting with each other, they tend rather to withdraw. Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

This is the same kind of social conditioning. You are implying that only sex inside long relationship is essential to our happiness and masturbating and having casual sex means that you are a kind of outcast, dork or oaf, at least in a personal development area, which is of course completely untrue.

You wrote it not me I don't think that someone cannot be happy with casual sex. He can, especially if his it not aware that he's missing something.
And that's the reason why it's so easy to do some sexploitation. If everybody was unhappy with masturbation and casual sex there would be no point in our discussion.

Why do you make solo practices and casual sex mutually exclusive with building a relationship?! Why do you substitute word sex with word relationship? Sex is not just about relationships, and relationships are not just about sex, although sex and relationships do contribute to each other.
And talking just about the quality of sex I have a strong feeling that both male masturbation and having multiple partners before entering long relationship helps. Not necessary, but helps.

For me sex is about relationship. The two are inseparable. Of course I know that people are eager to deny it because sex is fun and relationship are difficult. But it does not change the situation. When someone masturbates a lot he/she can't see it so clearly. Then he/she tends to separate the two, denigrating sex to mere release... Tell me please how can it help?

Oh, come on! Nobody masturbates because they fear that sperm will blow up their brain. As nobody eats because they are afraid to die from hunger.
People do it when they feel the need to do it. This need can be controlled, of course, but there is a point when controlling it becomes the waste of time and willpower and the returns diminish below any reasonable levels.

[/QUOTE]

That was my irony... And the wrong analogy once more.
Now I don't understand. How controlling any need can be the waste of time, and how could it be waste of willpower???

I don't think of sex as a bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated. I deem it powerful tool, a beautiful gift from G-d. A kind of power supply, wellspring of energy and joy to be used wisely. This is the way in which His light travels through worlds. And I could not imagine greater pleasure than being His light transmitter.

[Erki]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now I don't understand. How controlling any need can be the waste of time, and how could it be waste of willpower???

You answered it yourself:

Originally Posted by moonlite

I don't think of sex as a bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated. I deem it powerful tool, a beautiful gift from G-d. A kind of power supply, wellspring of energy and joy to be used wisely. This is the way in which His light travels through worlds. And I could not imagine greater pleasure than being His light transmitter.

Originally Posted by moonlite

I'm not sure if you can truly free yourself from social conditioning. I don't consider it something wrong, it depends what kind of society it is. What I can see now is that although Western culture is free from many ancient taboos it does not mean that people are more free in connecting with each other, they tend rather to withdraw. Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

I think the reason why masturbating seems to disconnect people from each other is the stigma attached to it. If people didn't resist masturbating and their sexuality in overall, it wouldn't be such a big deal and people would be more open about it. More openness = more closeness. Or what do you think?

I have to add here though that crass oversexualization that mass media seems to do, doesn't mean openness though.

Originally Posted by moonlite

For me sex is about relationship. The two are inseparable. Of course I know that people are eager to deny it because sex is fun and relationship are difficult. But it does not change the situation. When someone masturbates a lot he/she can't see it so clearly. Then he/she tends to separate the two, denigrating sex to mere release... Tell me please how can it help?

1) Why do you presume that relationships are difficult? Do they have to be difficult? Are they more valuable if they are difficult?
2) For me too, sex is about relationship. Masturbation can be about relationship as well - with yourself then. In that case, I feel that masturbation for release doesn't really count(and it very rarely feels good either).
And if you say that sex is fun, relationship is difficult, and sex is about relationship, do you mean that sex is about difficulty?

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now, I'm lost - can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you name 'natural' in this case.
Anyway, in my worldview sex means much more than making babies, afterall I'm not an animal.

Wasn't it dolphins who also make love just for the enjoyment of it? No wonder they are deemed to be so intelligent animals then.

Why do you repulse animality(is that a word?) so much? Where did cure furry animals go? Or should I use the word "naturalness" instead? Why do people resist being natural? You mentioned higher pleasures earlier - why are natural pleasures so bad then? What if instead leaving out natural pleasures and going for higher pleasures, embrace our animalness and naturalness and take these with us and make these also "high"? Animals and nature doesn't always have to be crude, dirty and brutish. Why not go back to the trees - trees are higher than us after all.

[Ilya]

Can you name one, just one health problem which comes from let's say one year abstinence from sex? I do not consider wet dreams as a health problem, it's rather an issue for washer.

Circulation problems of pelvic area, increased risk of prostatitis and prostate cancer in later years. Fertility problems. I won't even count stress.

You know, you can expect some to abstain from ejaculation, but you can't seriously expect boys not to get aroused. And once the arousal has started, the blood was drawn to pelvic area, the most healthy release is through orgasm or ejaculation. Otherwise you start having the problems mentioned above.

I'm very interested in these techniques, can you give me a link?
Unless they involve removing a huge part of my neocortex...

I can't give you the link. I've learned these techniques first-hand from direct descendant (i mean teacher-apprentice relationship here) of what can be called a Russian version of shamans. These are techniques that at their highest power are used to turn into animals (and you can understand it as literally as your beliefs allow you). This is stuff that's behind the folklore on lycanthropy and werewolfs. I've only seen a glimpse of it really but it's a strong stuff. Helped me a lot, later, when I've met a Grizzly bear in the wild.
I've tried to find something on Google, but I just don't know where to start looking. Sorry, that I start sounding like a sect member, but I just can't find a ready links. My guess is it would deal with shamans, native americans, etc.
There is also a very simple, but unhealthy practice of drinking strong alcohol, but I won't recommend it.

Well, this is really off-topic in this thread, and I brought it up as a counterexample to the claim that we can learn about animals only on Discovery Channel level.

I disagree, the morale is much more older and it does not condemn sexuality in itself

You mean other norms existed in pre-christian world that could be considered an analogue to morale? I don't argue. But it's the christian morale that causes problems with the topic we are discussing it. Also the older morales, actually, no. We can't say they are older. There are morals that are co-existing with the Christian one right now. And they treat many sensitive matters differently. So, I'd say it is another proof that we as human civilization are not as detached from our roots as it might seem to a European.

[Ilya]

I agree with Erki almost on every point he makes, but I'll give my version as well.

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now, I'm lost - can you be more specific? I'm not sure what you name 'natural' in this case.
Anyway, in my worldview sex means much more than making babies, afterall I'm not an animal.

Nutural means, I don't know, "from the biological" point of view. Biology does not make a huge distinction between humans and other animals. Doing so would be inconvenient and would contradict Okham's Razor principle. That's scientific point of view. Humans are animals that share most of their traits with animals plus have this thing called consciousness. It does separate us from all other animals, but the last I checked we still belonged to the animal kingdom, mammals class, Primates order, Hominides family, Homo genus and Homo sapience species.

I think that this is a wrong comparison. I deem comparing food to sex very misleading. These are very different needs. A one year abstinence won't kill you, but 30 days without food probably will.

Yes, proliferation instinct is different from feeding instinct.
Abstinence will not kill an individual, it is much more dangerous. If allowed it will lead the species to the extinction. Therefore proliferation instinct is at least as powerful as feeding instinct. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food takes precedence over food. But since we are talking about healthy, well nourished individuals living in a safe environment, sex drive is the most powerful instinct at work.

I'm glad that you wrote it. If that is the case what's the point of masturbation? It does not lead to proliferation of species. The more so - if compulsive it can be even harmful to it.

It keeps the male fertile and ready to copulate when the chance occurs. Even two days abstinence reduces the sperm count and the therefore chances of conception. Of course, excessive ejaculation has the same effect, but I do not advise to go for records.

"If" is the operational word in "if compulsive", isn't it?

Maybe now this debate is louder, but I'm sure that it lasts far more longer, about 3-4 thousand of years.

Any examples? When I read say, Roman and Greek sources I see that homosexuality was customary and wide-spread, that it was ok for brothers to have sex with each other, that the age of consent was about 13 years old and I won't continue, because what was customary then, can now put the owner of the forum in trouble for me just mentioning it. I can't really see any serious debate. There could be conflicting customs of different tribes, but debate?

Masturbation as I wrote is a kind of withdrawal, an instance of disability in coping with real world, strengthening the separation.

Where do you get it from? What is the purpose of saying that?
This is a claim that you can't possibly prove. And I can't really disprove it.
For me masturbation was never a kind of withdrawal. How can I prove it? I can't. And you can't prove otherwise.
That's like making any other unprovable claim. You either believe it or you don't.
Now if we are not trying to start a holy war here, we need some provable claims here. Can you provide some? Or are you just speculating?
I'd like to hear from the guys on trial what their achievements would be. That will be something to discuss. I expect to hear about more energy, more clarity. That's what I had after just a week of abstinence.

I'm not expecting better appreciation of long-term relationships or better sex life. If this is reported, then we would discuss it. Maybe I'll sign up for the same trial then.

You wrote it not me I don't think that someone cannot be happy with casual sex. He can, especially if his it not aware that he's missing something.
And that's the reason why it's so easy to do some sexploitation. If everybody was unhappy with masturbation and casual sex there would be no point in our discussion.

Here, you just did it again! You sound very condescending to the people who are happy with casual sex. Well, there is casual sex, sex in long relationships, sex in marriage, all kinds of sex and there is even masturbation. And all this activities can make the same person happy. One does not prevent another.
But if someone can feel happy from only some of these activities and not from the others, that, in my opinion would be something to worry about.

For me sex is about relationship. The two are inseparable. Of course I know that people are eager to deny it because sex is fun and relationship are difficult. But it does not change the situation.

Who told you that relationships are difficult? They are fun, if you do them right. Sex can be difficult if you do it wrong. Masturbation can be difficult and not so fun sometimes. These are all independent things - sex, masturbation, relationship, love, marriage. All of these things can happen at the same time, or at separate moments. Why pleasure from one must lead to discomfort of another is unclear to me.

When someone masturbates a lot he/she can't see it so clearly. Then he/she tends to separate the two, denigrating sex to mere release... Tell me please how can it help?

I can't tell you. I don't believe that masturbation denigrates sex to a mere release. Maybe you can tell me how it happens exactly? In my experience, masturbation can teach that sex is not about mere release. In fact it can teach all things you name as benefits of sex and I agree with them. But for some reason, you deny masturbation this potential.
Probably you think that it never goes beyond a frantic 10-second jerk in the bathroom that everybody starts with. Well, for some people it doesn't. It is the same as some bad lovers who never advance beyond a frantic 10-second poke. You know such guys exist, don't you? But it doesn't lead you to come down on sex. You use your experience with sex, which seems to be good.
Why do you deny the existence of enlightening, skillful masturbation, that boards with meditation (no pun intended)? I can tell you from my experience that such masturbation exists. It is in fact a part of Tao sex teachings. But a man can not reach this level if he does not start with that first frantic jerk. Just like any good lover goes through a scary, confusing, and sometimes disappointing "first time".

That was my irony... And the wrong analogy once more.
Now I don't understand. How controlling any need can be the waste of time, and how could it be waste of willpower???

I meant controlling the need beyond the point of diminished return. I can see reason to control the need to masturbate 7 times a day. I don't see reason to try to abstain from masturbation for more than a week at most.

I don't think of sex as a bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated. I deem it powerful tool, a beautiful gift from G-d. A kind of power supply, wellspring of energy and joy to be used wisely. This is the way in which His light travels through worlds. And I could not imagine greater pleasure than being His light transmitter.

Nobody says you do. You seem to think about masturbation as a "bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated." That is what the whole debate is about.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Why do the most spiritual disciplines forbid masturbation?

Because the sexual drive is so strong it creates an excellent opportunity to train your will.

First of all it would be nice to define what do you mean by "most spiritual disciplines". You didn't say religions, which would limit us to just 4000 ones to check out. I'm not sure that most spiritual disciplines in fact forbid masturbation.

But those who do, do it for various reasons.
One is to put everyone in a position of a sinner. By the way even in Christianity, masturbation is not a sin and is frowned upon because of Onan contradicting the custom of having sex with his dead brother's wife.
Once you have everybody at a sinner's position it creates great amount of control.
In Islam masturbation is piled together with any extramarital sexual activity.
This is also a way to control the followers.
In Hinduism nothing is said against or for masturbation.
Neither in Buddhism
In Taoism masturbation is encouraged as a practice that leads to the control of ejaculation and sexual energy.

Some schools might prohibit masturbation for the reasons of building character, but I'm not sure about that.

[Max0r]

Day 6 (7-8 days). What makes it easier is not sending energy down to the dick in the first place. If too much energy gets sent down there, it can collect there and build up pressure. This pressure is felt as a fullness in the ejaculatory back-plumbing. I do not feel that fullness one bit. It's been 20x easier doing this than previous times. Gee I wonder why.

By the way showing me pictures of women will not tempt me to masturbate any more. I'm not lying. This is true. First, I only find a small percentage of these pics to actually be attractive. Secondly, with this buildup of sexual energy I've noticed that if a picture arouses great lust (the picture has to be reallllllly nasty just the way I like it, but not in a way that grosses me out), the resulting feeling of energy from it seems to be evenly divided between my heart region, solar plexus region, lower gut region, and the penis. Hardness barely occurs, or comes in small spurts. Third, I prefer masturbating to videos anyway, but even the videos get the same result now. It seems I have to deliberately intend to move into my default masturbatory state to properly jack off to porn now, because it isn't automatically stimulating me in that respect.

Interesting.

[Max0r]

I'd like to add that I think I felt a little something in my throat region as well.

[albertlee25]

Maxor, this means that you are much better at controlling now! It is more like a mind over body rather than body over mind now! Congratz!

[LAVegan]

Am I the only one to make the connection between this challenge and the 'master of my domain' episode of Seinfeld? Maybe my thought processes are a bit low brow... =P

[Erock]

Originally Posted by LAVegan

Am I the only one to make the connection between this challenge and the 'master of my domain' episode of Seinfeld? Maybe my thought processes are a bit low brow... =P

Oh man. That is an absolutely classic episode. I love that one.

I think from a biological perspective, men become "addicted" to sex because there is a relatively small chance of a woman becoming pregnant in just one time (isn't it like 1 in 10 or something?). That's why it's easier to be on either a frequent schedule or completely celibate. In "nature," a man would have spells where he did not have sex at all, then form a relationship, have a bunch of sex (in this period he would become addicted, so that nature makes sure the woman becomes pregnant) and then have another long dry spell.

This makes sense based on my personal experience, because I've done 30 day trials and such. It is hard at first, then it's really easy, but once I start again I immediately get "addicted" again. This emulates the natural relationships that I described above.

Erock

[SweetPrincess07]

Im totally doing this 30 days with no Masterbation. I know It sounds odd me being addicted as a woman. But I am. Not only to masterbation to sex and porn. Im not really sure when I became addicted but its getting pretty out of hand I masterbate about 15 times a day to the point where I have nothing left to cum I just orgasm. I've masterbated driving down the road a few times iand in the bathroom at work. Ive also aquired an addicted to porn. I try to look at it every chance I get which would be about 20 times a day. And with the addiction to sex. Me and my ex had sex alot when we were were together for 3 years i would say we had sex about 1500 times when we were togther. Before we daited I had only had sex 2 times with 2 different people. After the breakup (which was a year ago) Ive had close to around 20 different sexual partners and had sex about 400 times. I am not at all a "whore" as everyone would call it but i really Am addicted. I made sure I used protection everytime and do not have Std's. I would love to be able to not masterbate or do anything sexual for a while do to the fact that I have a wonderful boyfriend who I am completly attracted to and this would be a big thing for him to do without also. I suppose I just need some advice. thank you.

[bar65]

I'd imagine the most difficult part of masturbation addiction is trying to stop simply because it is so much a natural part of us as humans. With alcohol or drugs all you have to do is put them down, but with sex it seems fasr more difficult.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by SweetPrincess07

Im totally doing this 30 days with no Masterbation. I know It sounds odd me being addicted as a woman. But I am. Not only to masterbation to sex and porn. Im not really sure when I became addicted but its getting pretty out of hand I masterbate about 15 times a day to the point where I have nothing left to cum I just orgasm. I've masterbated driving down the road a few times iand in the bathroom at work. Ive also aquired an addicted to porn. I try to look at it every chance I get which would be about 20 times a day. And with the addiction to sex. Me and my ex had sex alot when we were were together for 3 years i would say we had sex about 1500 times when we were togther. Before we daited I had only had sex 2 times with 2 different people. After the breakup (which was a year ago) Ive had close to around 20 different sexual partners and had sex about 400 times. I am not at all a "whore" as everyone would call it but i really Am addicted. I made sure I used protection everytime and do not have Std's. I would love to be able to not masterbate or do anything sexual for a while do to the fact that I have a wonderful boyfriend who I am completly attracted to and this would be a big thing for him to do without also. I suppose I just need some advice. thank you.

I'm sure I'll be in the minority here, but why not be happy you have a raging sex drive (some people suffer from the opposite!) and make the most of it? If you're wasting too much time with porn I can understand wanting to "break" the habit there, but can't understand why anyone would complain about being in a relationship where both partners wanted to have loads and loads of sex.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

First of all it would be nice to define what do you mean by "most spiritual disciplines". You didn't say religions, which would limit us to just 4000 ones to check out. I'm not sure that most spiritual disciplines in fact forbid masturbation.

But those who do, do it for various reasons.
One is to put everyone in a position of a sinner. By the way even in Christianity, masturbation is not a sin and is frowned upon because of Onan contradicting the custom of having sex with his dead brother's wife.
Once you have everybody at a sinner's position it creates great amount of control.
In Islam masturbation is piled together with any extramarital sexual activity.
This is also a way to control the followers.
In Hinduism nothing is said against or for masturbation.
Neither in Buddhism
In Taoism masturbation is encouraged as a practice that leads to the control of ejaculation and sexual energy.

Some schools might prohibit masturbation for the reasons of building character, but I'm not sure about that.

You're simply wrong. It's really amazing but almost every sentence in your post is far from the truth. Of course monotheisms (you forgot about the oldest one), are more categorical than eastern paths, but to say that these are indifferent or encouraging is untrue. Taoism is strongly against ejaculation so if it's encouraging masturbation then only without semen emission, this 'unhealthy' type leading as you wrote to severe health problems.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Circulation problems of pelvic area, increased risk of prostatitis and prostate cancer in later years. Fertility problems. I won't even count stress.
You know, you can expect some to abstain from ejaculation, but you can't seriously expect boys not to get aroused. And once the arousal has started, the blood was drawn to pelvic area, the most healthy release is through orgasm or ejaculation. Otherwise you start having the problems mentioned above.

Now you've rejected thousands of years of Chinese medicine and Taoist teachings.

Originally Posted by Ilya

I can't give you the link. I've learned these techniques first-hand from direct descendant (i mean teacher-apprentice relationship here) of what can be called a Russian version of shamans. These are techniques that at their highest power are used to turn into animals (and you can understand it as literally as your beliefs allow you). This is stuff that's behind the folklore on lycanthropy and werewolfs. I've only seen a glimpse of it really but it's a strong stuff. Helped me a lot, later, when I've met a Grizzly bear in the wild.
I've tried to find something on Google, but I just don't know where to start looking. Sorry, that I start sounding like a sect member, but I just can't find a ready links. My guess is it would deal with shamans, native americans, etc.
There is also a very simple, but unhealthy practice of drinking strong alcohol, but I won't recommend it.

So as I thought it included removing part of neocortex

Originally Posted by Ilya

You mean other norms existed in pre-christian world that could be considered an analogue to morale? I don't argue. But it's the christian morale that causes problems with the topic we are discussing it. Also the older morales, actually, no. We can't say they are older. There are morals that are co-existing with the Christian one right now. And they treat many sensitive matters differently. So, I'd say it is another proof that we as human civilization are not as detached from our roots as it might seem to a European.

So, yes I think that it's not Christianity that invented morality or morals.
I'm not a Christian and still consider masturbation as something not to be proud of.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Nutural means, I don't know, "from the biological" point of view. Biology does not make a huge distinction between humans and other animals. Doing so would be inconvenient and would contradict Okham's Razor principle. That's scientific point of view. Humans are animals that share most of their traits with animals plus have this thing called consciousness. It does separate us from all other animals, but the last I checked we still belonged to the animal kingdom, mammals class, Primates order, Hominides family, Homo genus and Homo sapience species.

A biological point of view is a form of reductionism and it's rather difficult to apply to matters of personal development. We talk here not only about masturbation, but rather about its possible impact on personal development. If you want to involve any science psychology fits here better, philosophy and probably psychopathology. Of course these are soft sciences without hard evidence nevertheless they have something to say about it.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Yes, proliferation instinct is different from feeding instinct.
Abstinence will not kill an individual, it is much more dangerous. If allowed it will lead the species to the extinction. Therefore proliferation instinct is at least as powerful as feeding instinct. According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, food takes precedence over food. But since we are talking about healthy, well nourished individuals living in a safe environment, sex drive is the most powerful instinct at work.

I never promoted endless abstinence. I'm sure and even biology supports my point of view that one year of abstinence does not kill anybody and does not lead to extinction of species.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Where do you get it from? What is the purpose of saying that?
This is a claim that you can't possibly prove. And I can't really disprove it.
For me masturbation was never a kind of withdrawal. How can I prove it? I can't. And you can't prove otherwise.

You mean you always do it in public????

Originally Posted by Ilya

That's like making any other unprovable claim. You either believe it or you don't.
Now if we are not trying to start a holy war here, we need some provable claims here. Can you provide some? Or are you just speculating?
I'd like to hear from the guys on trial what their achievements would be. That will be something to discuss. I expect to hear about more energy, more clarity. That's what I had after just a week of abstinence.

Just for the record - we are here on a personal development forum. Full of unprovable claims. Relationship is at better an area of interest of psychology - also full of unprovable claims. Of course you can reject it in the whole but I doubt it'll make you wiser. There are different points of view. I don't want you to believe in what I'm saying. I want to explain what I think and show you that one can be non-Christian and not dogmatic but still think differently.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Here, you just did it again! You sound very condescending to the people who are happy with casual sex. Well, there is casual sex, sex in long relationships, sex in marriage, all kinds of sex and there is even masturbation. And all this activities can make the same person happy. One does not prevent another.
But if someone can feel happy from only some of these activities and not from the others, that, in my opinion would be something to worry about.

Tell me why should I not be condescending to the people who choose the wrong path? And why anyone should worry if his not taking pleasure from casual sex?

Originally Posted by Ilya

Who told you that relationships are difficult? They are fun, if you do them right. Sex can be difficult if you do it wrong. Masturbation can be difficult and not so fun sometimes. These are all independent things - sex, masturbation, relationship, love, marriage. All of these things can happen at the same time, or at separate moments. Why pleasure from one must lead to discomfort of another is unclear to me.

I don't say that relationships are difficult to me. But I think that for many people they are, because if they were simply fun then why anybody should masturbate? Here you contradict yourself because previously you wrote how difficult is for young males to get a girlfriend. For many adult man too. I don't think that sex and relationship are independent. It happens so that people try to separate them, put in different compartments but this is unhealthy. I speak now from psychological point of view. Namely object-relation theory.

Originally Posted by Ilya

I can't tell you. I don't believe that masturbation denigrates sex to a mere release. Maybe you can tell me how it happens exactly? In my experience, masturbation can teach that sex is not about mere release. In fact it can teach all things you name as benefits of sex and I agree with them. But for some reason, you deny masturbation this potential.
Probably you think that it never goes beyond a frantic 10-second jerk in the bathroom that everybody starts with. Well, for some people it doesn't. It is the same as some bad lovers who never advance beyond a frantic 10-second poke. You know such guys exist, don't you? But it doesn't lead you to come down on sex. You use your experience with sex, which seems to be good.
Why do you deny the existence of enlightening, skillful masturbation, that boards with meditation (no pun intended)? I can tell you from my experience that such masturbation exists. It is in fact a part of Tao sex teachings. But a man can not reach this level if he does not start with that first frantic jerk. Just like any good lover goes through a scary, confusing, and sometimes disappointing "first time".

Maybe masturbation is very useful in learning how to stroke your penis in many different sophisticated ways, but I think that this and other sexual experience is better to get with a partner. Or maybe you think that only masturbation can lead to great sex? Also this enlightening experience you can attain with partner and then it goes much deeper

Originally Posted by Ilya

I meant controlling the need beyond the point of diminished return. I can see reason to control the need to masturbate 7 times a day. I don't see reason to try to abstain from masturbation for more than a week at most.
You seem to think about masturbation as a "bad thing which has to be painfully restricted or better eradicated." That is what the whole debate is about.

You seem not believe that after some period of abstinence drive weakens. You can also consciously avoid sources of excitement (indecent movies, pics etc.) and at last but not least - find and please your wife

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by moonlite

A biological point of view is a form of reductionism and it's rather difficult to apply to matters of personal development. We talk here not only about masturbation, but rather about its possible impact on personal development. If you want to involve any science psychology fits here better, philosophy and probably psychopathology. Of course these are soft sciences without hard evidence nevertheless they have something to say about it.



I never promoted endless abstinence. I'm sure and even biology supports my point of view that one year of abstinence does not kill anybody and does not lead to extinction of species.



You mean you always do it in public????



Just for the record - we are here on a personal development forum. Full of unprovable claims. Relationship is at better an area of interest of psychology - also full of unprovable claims. Of course you can reject it in the whole but I doubt it'll make you wiser. There are different points of view. I don't want you to believe in what I'm saying. I want to explain what I think and show you that one can be non-Christian and not dogmatic but still think differently.



Tell me why should I not be condescending to the people who choose the wrong path? And why anyone should worry if his not taking pleasure from casual sex?



I don't say that relationships are difficult to me. But I think that for many people they are, because if they were simply fun then why anybody should masturbate? Here you contradict yourself because previously you wrote how difficult is for young males to get a girlfriend. For many adult man too. I don't think that sex and relationship are independent. It happens so that people try to separate them, put in different compartments but this is unhealthy. I speak now from psychological point of view. Namely object-relation theory.



Maybe masturbation is very useful in learning how to stroke your penis in many different sophisticated ways, but I think that this and other sexual experience is better to get with a partner. Or maybe you think that only masturbation can lead to great sex? Also this enlightening experience you can attain with partner and then it goes much deeper



You seem not believe that after some period of abstinence drive weakens. You can also consciously avoid sources of excitement (indecent movies, pics etc.) and at last but not least - find and please your wife

Wow, this same attitude is exactly why I left the (christian) church I attended and organized religion in general... The idea of "My way is absolutely correct, your way definitely isn't, and I damn sure should be condescending toward those who think differently than me and choose what I consider the wrong path, even though I can't prove that my way is right and theirs is wrong beyond my own speculation" sounds like the main reason why I didn't stick around any longer than I had to...


This reminds me why I also ran from the old religion/politics forum I used to post on, it wsa nothing but theists and atheists flaming each other over how their side was absolutely correct and the other was either wasting their lives or going to hell, not for one moment considering that just maybe, "spirituality" or whatever you want to call it might work differently for different people.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Wow, this same attitude is exactly why I left the (christian) church I attended and organized religion in general... The idea of "My way is absolutely correct, your way definitely isn't, and I damn sure should be condescending toward those who think differently than me and choose what I consider the wrong path, even though I can't prove that my way is right and theirs is wrong beyond my own speculation" sounds like the main reason why I didn't stick around any longer than I had to...


This reminds me why I also ran from the old religion/politics forum I used to post on, it wsa nothing but theists and atheists flaming each other over how their side was absolutely correct and the other was either wasting their lives or going to hell, not for one moment considering that just maybe, "spirituality" or whatever you want to call it might work differently for different people.

I never wrote that my way is absolutely correct. I wrote "There are different points of view. I don't want you to believe in what I'm saying. I want to explain what I think and show you that one can be non-Christian and not dogmatic but still think differently." Can you see the difference?

And I did not write that I should be condescending but asked Ilya what is his argument against being condescending, because I'm always interested how people support simultaneously an idea that this is wrong to be condescending and this is wrong to say that for me something is wrong. I think it is a kind of schizophrenia.

It's illogical. Either you reject the whole idea of morality and then you have no base to say what is right or wrong or you accept some morals but then of course they are exactly like mine - the matter of faith. There are no scientifically proved morals. AFAIK Nietzsche has proved that rejection of the whole idea of morality is utterly impossible because soon it becomes replaced with different set of morals. It doesn't matter whether you preach them or they remain hidden - everyone can easily trace it in your way of thinking.

Let me ask you one question: So you think that being condescending is wrong, can you explain me why? I can trace a bit of contempt (if not some ekhm, patronizing) in what you wrote about condescending behavior.

[Truefire]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Wow, this same attitude is exactly why I left the (christian) church I attended and organized religion in general... The idea of "My way is absolutely correct, your way definitely isn't, and I damn sure should be condescending toward those who think differently than me and choose what I consider the wrong path, even though I can't prove that my way is right and theirs is wrong beyond my own speculation" sounds like the main reason why I didn't stick around any longer than I had to...


This reminds me why I also ran from the old religion/politics forum I used to post on, it wsa nothing but theists and atheists flaming each other over how their side was absolutely correct and the other was either wasting their lives or going to hell, not for one moment considering that just maybe, "spirituality" or whatever you want to call it might work differently for different people.

Meh. The majority of people are closed minded, too involved in their own thing to consider something other than their opinion, me often included. Some people are just plain deluded, and its really hard to convince them of that over the internet.