Masturbation

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Shamou

I fully agree with you... a women trying to know how a man's sexual drive feels is tantamount to a man trying to figure out PMS...

And as far as relating sex to drug addiction it is simply ludicrous... and reeks of eighteen century's puritanism...
.

Good comparison! I agree on both counts.

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Shamou

And as far as relating sex to drug addiction it is simply ludicrous... and reeks of eighteen century's puritanism...
.

Ejaculating creates a dopamine blast in the brain that goes through a withdrawl period that make craving that "hit" again. Nature wants us to be addicted to sex to preserve the species.
2. Everyone's Wired for Sexual Addiction | Reuniting

I gave up ejaculating on my own from time to time and really liked the dreams that I'd have. Probably only a couple weeks at a time inbetween. I would find that the energy of being turned on can be moved up the body and kind of used to energize me, instead of tossing the energy away all the time. That I would try to feel the electricity through my body instead of just with my member. Playing with that awareness as sort of redirecting the focus or helping to amplify energy sensing in the other parts of me.

It's a balancing thing, I think. And the sperm factory has a way of trying to keep up with what ever level you are doing, kind of. The less you do ejaculate, the less sperm gets produced. Of coarse it gets backed up too. Eventually it starts to not feel good down there, the backing up will ache too much, and you will either do yourself or have a fun dream.

The other thing about ejaculating is it changes your brain chemistry, you get a dopamine high that goes through a withdrawl period. The withdrawl period is the brain trying to eqaulize what's missing and the instinct is to orgasm again, since that will make another brain chemical spike. It may be healthier and more satisfying to wait out the withdrawl and then the act will be more loving and full even if you are by yourself. Sort of like waiting for fruit to be ripe before picking it. Not sure how long the recovery period is to wait out the withdrawl though.

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by moonlite

IMHO what makes it the real challenge is the contemporary culture which simply sinks you in erotic stimuli. An average woman walks the streets barely naked in the summer, from almost every billboard or magazine pictures of luscious women force you to think about it and it can make you really oversexed especially when you are young and less consciously selective in your perception.

She's right.

Originally Posted by moonlite

Now I can better understand what is the cost of this influence on men.

Women are paying for this too. Dearly.

Originally Posted by moonlite

Ask some junkies, at first with small amount of drug they were more happy/more effective (especially true about speeds), than they discovered that they cannot live without it and that it had drained them of something vital. Sex definitely is not the same as food or water because you can live without sex all your life (I do not recomend it just say it's possible). Have you ever heard about delaying gratification? (that's why the gym is not the best way to train your will - I saw many people in my life who trained a lot and were very underdeveloped concerning their will - because it can also be addictive and serve as an escape)

Very well said, especially about the gym.

[mlc82]

I am really lost here now... Why is not masturbating for a certain period considered "delayed gratification", but sticking to a nutrition and workout plan, much of which isn't easy, for a certain period of time in order to have a leaner, stronger, and healthier body NOT "delayed gratification" and also a bad way to strengthen willpower?

If I'm saving up to eventually buy some land and build a house on it, is that not a form of "delayed gratification"? Does anything I learn about delaying gratification for a greater purpose or strengthening willpower by not taking a chunk of that money to run out and buy a brand new, top of the line computer with a big stack of games, become void if I masturbate daily while doing it?

[Max0r]

You may ask me how does the following that I say tie in with masturbation. I'd say very much so, especially, for many of you I suspect (it has for me) in a personal way, individual to the self.

Originally Posted by Calculusaurus

I think it's much more of an internal genetic thing. Remove contemporary culture and I still think men's drives will be the same. Erotic stimuli in our culture is a result of men's drives, not the other way around. That's my guess. Though I suppose there could be some sort of positive feedback loop thing going on.

The difference is that without a societal influence, humans would naturally consummate their desires with eachother and nobody would plaster "sexy" pictures everywhere, because you can't sell someone something with sex, if they're consummating their desires. Sexual marketing only works on those who are A) sexually unfilfilled B) stupid C) disconnected from their natural sexuality.

This modern society thrives on keeping people apart at a deep sexual level, while at the same time stimulating the **** out of them with sexual marketing and such, which encourages rampant spending and social games, all of which is like a hamster wheel, none of that **** gets anyone anywhere.

Even those who are "gettin laid" and "in relationships" are connecting on mostly a societal level, and have too much society garbage getting in the way of any real sexual connection. In fact, without society's influence, many of these relationships would never have happened, or they wouldn't have had all the B.S. and would have gone much better.

In a way, sexuality is repressed even worse than by older, religion based societies. It's worse because now, people are becoming perceptual slaves as opposed to slaves of a deadly force. It's sort of a "rich get richer" thing now. Basically, natural sexuality is even more ruthlessly (yet in a hidden way) repressed than before, and those who are slaves to societal influence, and not their own people, 99.999% of them will forever be torn from their inner sexuality. However, since the repression is no longer violent and forceful, those who are connected with their true sexuality are experiencing a golden age, since ain't nobody gona stop them.

By the way, especially in the U.S. and certain metropolitan areas world wide, men are losing their natural masculinity and women are losing their natural femininity. Men are becoming the bitches, and as long as they disconnect from their core masculinity, they will be unable to connect with women on a natural sexual level, unless the woman is naturally masculine and dominant, which most women are not. Even then, if a man is not inherently a bitch, if a woman makes him one, he probably will not take it well.

Ain't no puritan or religious **** going on here, yallz. No morality either. This is strictly biological although we can get into more ethereal realms with this ****, but we're all too drained energetically to comphrenend that stuff in a practical way.

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by mlc82

I am really lost here now... Why is not masturbating for a certain period considered "delayed gratification", but sticking to a nutrition and workout plan, much of which isn't easy, for a certain period of time in order to have a leaner, stronger, and healthier body NOT "delayed gratification" and also a bad way to strengthen willpower?

Her point I believe is that anything can become an addiction, and when it does, feeding the addiction robs one of will power. There's a difference between managing nutrition and training, and getting so obsessed about it that it becomes a round-the-clock pleasure compulsion getting in the way of this person's conscious evolution.

[Peter S C]

Originally Posted by Amadeus

Go ahead and spank that monkey.

For some reason that made me laugh for at least a minute.

[moonlite]

You guys are perfectly right - I can't have a faintest idea what does it mean to be a man, because I'm spending this journey in a body of a woman. But... maybe in previous life I was a man? I think it's quite possible concerning my usually close rapport with men.

Maybe it's only my wishful thinking and the reality is different and every man who said that only I can truly understand him wanted just try one week without masturbation and hoped that I would help him in some way...

Anyway, I'm not a man but I think I know something about gym, drugs and masturbation.

First of all - the gym certainly is not a delayed gratification. Maybe it is for some fatty, but for an average person the pleasure is almost instant. Protein shakes are delicious. The atmosphere of a place - the meeting of brave warriors. And this feeling after workout - feeling of an accomplishment... And even pain (which is followed by a release of endorphins) is the pain that you control - and this is very gratifying... The gym very easily can serve as an illusion of control of yourself or your life. I don't mean that you are not supposed to use it but it's about building your muscles not about building your soul.

And back to the topic - what's this vital thing which masturbation can detract you from? For sure you will never know if you never try to live without it. You cannot mourn for something you're not aware you had it. You cannot regret unless you know that you loose something.

It's very true that in modern oversexed society sex is even more absent than in more restrictive times. First, we have to answer one question - what sex really is? I should have started with that - from my point of view masturbation is not sex at all, because sex is about connection and through masturbation you cannot connect with anybody. You cannot even connect with yourself because you are splitting yourself during the act and to connect you have to be integrated. Masturbation in itself is very narcissistic and feeds narcissistic delusions (especially about the self-sufficiency). For me it's somehow funny because this thread in itself show how far went the decadence of Western culture - an idea to stop masturbating for a while aroused interesting discussion. very symbolic

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by moonlite

First of all - the gym certainly is not a delayed gratification. Maybe it is for some fatty, but for an average person the pleasure is almost instant. Protein shakes are delicious. The atmosphere of a place - the meeting of brave warriors. And this feeling after workout - feeling of an accomplishment... And even pain (which is followed by a release of endorphins) is the pain that you control - and this is very gratifying... The gym very easily can serve as an illusion of control of yourself or your life. I don't mean that you are not supposed to use it but it's about building your muscles not about building your soul.

Oh man, you can't possibly be living in the USA You just described about 10% of the people who go to gyms IMO, I've worked in several (I'm a personal trainer) and would bet that the majority of people there, except maybe the hard-core crowd that never miss a day, would disagree with everything you just said... Most people, if told that a gym atmosphere feels good, workout pain (the good kind) feels good, and protein shakes are "delicious" would think you were insane I'd agree with you though.

I do agree with you about the gym becoming a compulsion, I've done that for quite a while before and think it's pretty common, especially in people who used to be shy and underconfident (me when I was younger) and found a way to build themselves up both physically and mentally by working out. It can become destructive as you tend to overwork. At it's core though, I just don't see how a properly followed workout is plan is anything but delayed gratification- it isn't as if you can go in looking like a boy band member, and walk out an hour later to be mistaken as Arnold. It takes a lot of time and hard work!

I also see the point about masturbating having the potential to become an addictive problem, however it seems to me that we're demonizing masturbating in that regard instead of focusing on why one would rather do that as an escape... Some people can go overboard with alcohol and become alcoholics, but that doesn't mean that beer itself is a nasty or negative thing.

Maybe I'm just an overly horny 24 yr old male, but I could only imagine what I'd be like after a full week of not doing it and seeing a decently attractive woman- I'd be foaming at the mouth and acting like a starved animal.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Max0r

Her point I believe is that anything can become an addiction, and when it does, feeding the addiction robs one of will power. There's a difference between managing nutrition and training, and getting so obsessed about it that it becomes a round-the-clock pleasure compulsion getting in the way of this person's conscious evolution.

I see the point there, but you could say the same about masturbating. I like to do it every day during spare time (usually before bed, as it's a good way to go into a deep sleep in my experience), but I'm not cancelling work, staying up all night long, or ignoring my girlfriend in order to masturbate more often.

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by moonlite

Anyway, I'm not a man but I think I know something about gym, drugs and masturbation.

Why then should anyone do anything that's fun, or can cause an endorphin release? Something, anything, that you enjoy doing can cause the release of chemicals that drugs can as well... Again, this sounds eerily like religion to me- "Doing anything that feels good physically is a nasty, evil act- It might feel good to your body but will destroy you spiritually!"

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by moonlite

You cannot even connect with yourself because you are splitting yourself during the act and to connect you have to be integrated.

Hey, can you tell me more about this?

Originally Posted by moonlite

Masturbation in itself is very narcissistic and feeds narcissistic delusions (especially about the self-sufficiency).

For me it seems to be based on lust, although I have to say... there is a major disconnect between the desire which leads to a masturbatory orgasm and actual sexual desire for a woman, even if the masturbation was to a woman.

Originally Posted by moonlite

For me it's somehow funny because this thread in itself show how far went the decadence of Western culture - an idea to stop masturbating for a while aroused interesting discussion. very symbolic

Notice how this thread has actually resulted in a shitload of mental masturbation? It's like we're shootin' our wads over the internet.

[Max0r]

Originally Posted by mlc82

...or ignoring my girlfriend in order to masturbate more often.

Wouldn't you rather be giving it to your girlfriend?

[XeutonMojukai]

Originally Posted by Erki

Lately(means basically all my life), I have been feeling a bit stressed out, frustrated, possibly depressed. And masturbation..... doesn't make anything better. Only leaves me feeling even more frustrated. Mainly because it never feels as good as I'd like it to feel.

Geez, for me that happens with normal sex, too...

But I have been experimenting with spiritual connection using the internet to make it work better, and it's worked out pretty well. I once had a shared orgasm with a long-distance lover who I was very close with in every way, and the energy definitely was transfered between us, and was also more satisfying than it is alone.

~ David

[mlc82]

Originally Posted by Max0r

Wouldn't you rather be giving it to your girlfriend?

LOL Of course!! But she's not always around.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by moonlite
It's very true that in modern oversexed society sex is even more absent than in more restrictive times.

I don’t know where you live… but in part of the world sex is very much alive and well thank you… the religious taboos went out the window twenty or thirty years ago… and sex is now seen as an activity which is only regulated by one’s personal values and code of ethics…

First, we have to answer one question - what sex really is? I should have started with that - from my point of view masturbation is not sex at all, because sex is about connection and through masturbation you cannot connect with anybody. You cannot even connect with yourself because you are splitting yourself during the act and to connect you have to be integrated. Masturbation in itself is very narcissistic and feeds narcissistic delusions (especially about the self-sufficiency).

I am almost tempted to ask you if you ever had sex… since you certainly seem to be able to expound about it but your conclusions seem to be so far from reality that I truly wonder how you could ever come to such conclusions…

The sexual process is as follows... arousal… gratification… and orgasm… but how you achieve those three stages is irrelevant…

For me it's somehow funny because this thread in itself show how far went the decadence of Western culture - an idea to stop masturbating for a while aroused interesting discussion. very symbolic

Could you explain to me how sex is decadent… ??? I would just love to hear your rationalization…
.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by mlc82

Why then should anyone do anything that's fun, or can cause an endorphin release? Something, anything, that you enjoy doing can cause the release of chemicals that drugs can as well... Again, this sounds eerily like religion to me- "Doing anything that feels good physically is a nasty, evil act- It might feel good to your body but will destroy you spiritually!"

My belief system doesn't assume that in every pleasure evil is hidden. And of course you are right - it would be rather stupid to avoid any activity that leads to the release of natural drugs. Then you would become inactive! And even writing/reading this forum would not be allowed (something must be released during that - I can feel it ) But there is a question - what's the point of any pleasure? Is there any hierarchy of pleasures? If there is then maybe striving for any lower pleasure robs you off pleasure of higher type? Simply because your time is finite and doing one thing you are not doing the other?

Shamou: your definition of sex differs from mine. For me sex is not a psychophysiological phenomenon but something more complex. I find a psychophysiological perspective very flat and narrow. We are something more than animals with well-developed brains. I think that boys had more pleasure from squeezing the lemon in XIX century than today, because it was forbidden fruit and then they were playing with devil not only with their *****.

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by KH Rising

What I'm considering is going 30 DAYS without masturbation.

First of all I want to wish this goal you have set for yourself is still going well. When you do complete the 30 days, at the least you will now know you have the will power and the self control to do things you thought were difficult at one time.

I've actually read that even if you don't ejaculate by having intercourse or masturbation, your body automatically ejaculates small amounts of semen naturally, when you are sleeping.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by moonlite

We are something more than animals with well-developed brains.

That post got a good chuckle out of me... and I thank you for it...

However, again, I must disagree with you... the best sex that I ever had was when I let that intellectual part of my brain fly out the window... and got down on the purely primal animalistic level...

Raw passionate sex is not a time for quantum physic... it's time for the basic the satisfaction of the primal instincts...

Granted, we should fully respect our partner's feelings and considerations... but, beyond that... no holds are barred...
.

[moonlite]

Originally Posted by Max0r

Hey, can you tell me more about this?

Sure, I meant that during the act you split yourself for a passive and active part. The passive part is focused on fantasy and receiving pleasure and active part is ekhm, creating/giving pleasure. Without this splitting masturbation would be very boring. Of course people differ in their fantasies and their intensity, sometimes more conscious is this active part (in more mechanical masturbation), but IMHO splitting always occurs. And you can see the danger in this splitting - for a while you become disconnected from the world as a source of pleasure and have an illusion of being utterly independent (=separated)

Originally Posted by Max0r

For me it seems to be based on lust, although I have to say... there is a major disconnect between the desire which leads to a masturbatory orgasm and actual sexual desire for a woman, even if the masturbation was to a woman.

not only lust is a cause of masturbation. You can do it out of anxiety, depression, anger. Even out of sense of guilt.

Originally Posted by Max0r

Notice how this thread has actually resulted in a shitload of mental masturbation? It's like we're shootin' our wads over the internet.

I hope that we are not spunking our keyboards yet (for me it's even impossible) but I meant that issue is to stop for a while because it's obvious for anyone that everybody is doing it all the time. That's what I called "decadence" - the connection is rare and considered as an option which demands a great self-sacrifice.