Anyone successfully reduced sleep hours per night?

[coma]

Hi Guys,

I'd like to reduce the hours I sleep too -- to make way for more productive activities, however, I've been facing massive resistance getting down to sub 8 hours.. I have 2 questions:

1. Do you think sleeping less just creates a sleep debt which can possibly be stored for weeks, months, even years? I know of some workaholics which claim that they get by 4-5 hours of sleep a day but they crash on the weekends. Is less sleep sustainable in the long run?

2. Has anybody tried to gain weight (muscle that is) and survive with less sleep at the same time? Cos i am trying to do so, but it feels very unnatural and my body keeps telling me that I need to sleep!

[Ati]

Originally Posted by Alarin

It sounds like you're an 'early bird' as opposed to a 'night owl' Everyone has their own circadian rhythm which dictates when they're sleepy and when they're awake, yours definately sounds like it has an early start so you're awake and alert early in the day and you start to flag in the later evening. I'm the exact opposite, I can make myself get out of bed by 6:30am but I'm a zombie for the next hour and my mornings are slow, however from about 8pm to midnight I'm at my most alert and creative.

If you're an early bird it's good to listen to your body clock, and it sounds like you're doing that which explains your good results. If you want to shave some more time off your sleeping hours you could try setting your alarm clock half to one hour earlier and seeing how you feel when you wake up - if you're more alert then you've woken up at the end of a REM cycle and it's a good time to get up, if you're groggy just go back to your usual waking time.

I'm an early bird as well, and have done just what you are talking about, more or less step by step. Now, for the past 2 + months, I've been regularly getting up at 3:45AM in order to get 2 hours of guitar practicing in, before leaving for work. Being the early bird that I am (with just the reverse circadian rhythm as you describe, Alarin!), I also find that work days go phenomenally better when I get in early as well.

I did this by just what Alarin is suggesting here, shaving off abt a half hour every week, in the morning. I set the alarm but more often than not, wake up just before it goes off, which feels quite good.

I'm now getting into biphasic sleep. I find the 90 minute cycle idea pretty workable within my own physiology, and my 90 minute nap in the afternoons really makes a difference for both the rest of the day (having gotten up at 3:45 ) and for feeling good when I first get up. There is a lot on the polyphasic sleep threads here on various aspects of sleep efficiency, as you've probably seen.

Originally Posted by coma

Hi Guys,

I'd like to reduce the hours I sleep too -- to make way for more productive activities, however, I've been facing massive resistance getting down to sub 8 hours.. I have 2 questions:

1. Do you think sleeping less just creates a sleep debt which can possibly be stored for weeks, months, even years? I know of some workaholics which claim that they get by 4-5 hours of sleep a day but they crash on the weekends. Is less sleep sustainable in the long run?

2. Has anybody tried to gain weight (muscle that is) and survive with less sleep at the same time? Cos i am trying to do so, but it feels very unnatural and my body keeps telling me that I need to sleep!

I do think it's really, really important to listen to your physiology. Maybe right now is not the time for your body to try to get less than 8 hours of sleep. Or maybe there is something you are regularly doing or exposed to which makes your body work best on 8 hours. I think people are different but also that a person is likely very different at different times during their life, either due to developmental changes (individually progressive through the life cycle) or environmental differences (just what's going on internally and externally for a person AND/OR things a person is doing)--have more of a choice about which affects their environment.

For the latter, I think first of caffeine, sugar and alcohol intake (other drugs, sure quite likely--both medical and "recreational" as they say). Also sleeping, work and other activity environment, stressors of various types including the stress of not much to do. And certainly the physio chemical effects of an active athletic program, muscle building or other would certainly have a strong effect on sleep need, and one I'd be listening to, both for the success of the athletic effort and for my health

Also, if sleeping less is not the best option, there are so many other ways to affect one's own productivity or efficiency....this site is full of discussions and links to helpful sites on that.

Just my 2 cents. Good luck ! Let us know how you are doing!

all best,

Ati

[Cassie]

Wow, before reading this thread, I didn't know it was even possible to not sleep.

I've been sleeping way too much, probably around 9 hours and it's definitely way too much for my body sometimes. It was also an emotional escape mechanism for me when I was younger. I'd struggle with depression and then go to bed to escape in my dreams. I want to reverse this psychologically so I can become more productive in my waking hours.

Sleep has got to be one of the #1 things holding me back right now from accomplishing many things I want to do. I'm going to focus on being more efficient with time and cutting back on my sleeping patterns, so I'll learn with the rest of you.

[Alarin]

Originally Posted by Ati

I'm an early bird as well, and have done just what you are talking about, more or less step by step. Now, for the past 2 + months, I've been regularly getting up at 3:45AM in order to get 2 hours of guitar practicing in, before leaving for work. Being the early bird that I am (with just the reverse circadian rhythm as you describe, Alarin!), I also find that work days go phenomenally better when I get in early as well.

Cool, that's fantastic Ati ! I think most of the population would have a lot more energy and health if they could follow their body clock like that, although sadly the 9-5 routine does force most people to work on someone else's clock unless they've got a flexible employer. You must be pretty good at guitar with all that practice!

Originally Posted by coma

Hi Guys,

I'd like to reduce the hours I sleep too -- to make way for more productive activities, however, I've been facing massive resistance getting down to sub 8 hours.. I have 2 questions:

1. Do you think sleeping less just creates a sleep debt which can possibly be stored for weeks, months, even years? I know of some workaholics which claim that they get by 4-5 hours of sleep a day but they crash on the weekends. Is less sleep sustainable in the long run?

2. Has anybody tried to gain weight (muscle that is) and survive with less sleep at the same time? Cos i am trying to do so, but it feels very unnatural and my body keeps telling me that I need to sleep!

Yes I think if you're not sleeping enough for your particular body clock then you can create sleep debt / run yourself down to the point where it's physically noticeable. Sleep is crucial in repairing the body's systems, digesting food, producing seratonin, and lots of other good stuff that keeps us healthy, so yes I believe not enough sleep can definately have a detrimental effect. However having said that "not enough sleep" depends entirely on your body clock and how often you sleep - I know people who can get by on 3 hours a night continuously because they sleep for an hour or two every afternoon. I know other people who sleep 10+ hours a night and still wake up groggy because they haven't learnt to listen to their body clock. The trick is to work out how much sleep is right for -you- personally, and you can cut that down too by exercising and getting lots of natural sunlight. So in answer to your question yes I do think less sleep is sustainable in the long run if the sleeper knows what they're doing which is just a matter of research and experimentation. If not they might actually be better off getting 8 hours a night as at least that way they can't do themselves too much harm.

For your second question, I'm not surprised your body is telling you to sleep Building muscle is apparently one of the most tiring things your body can do, and for muscle to successfully repair itself for the next weights encounter your body needs rest and relaxation. There's a great book called "Body for Life" by Bill Phillips which is all about that kind of thing - building muscle, sleep, nutrition, etc. One point he keeps making is that you have to give your body time to recuperate between workouts of you cause your muscles more damage and undo all the good work you've done. Part of that recuperation is sleep and more of it than you usually need. In other words don't push yourself too hard when you're putting your body under stress and sleep if you're tired, and if you sleep lots don't feel bad as you can always train your body to sleep less once you've lessened back on the workouts and it doesn't need the sleep so much, if that makes sense ?

[Ati]

Alarin--thanks for the thumbs up and great advice to all in the rest of your message....

Although 3:45am sounds really early, almost polyphasic (not quite!), it was really the adherence to a particular discipline and schedule AND the daytime sleep times that helped this the most, I think.

I totally agree with what you say about listening to one's body clock in general and appreciating when one needs more sleep, like during weight training, for example !

So, time for that guitar now...


Ati

[sadavis00]

I too am trying to reduce sleep, two ideas I'm finding to be useful so that I can intellectually justify my decision are:

1. According to a book on sleep research ("Why we sleep") people need about five hours of sleep to rest their cerebellum (which can only be done during sleep). The rest is OPTIONAL sleep. If we don't get it we feel tired, and unmotivated, but there in LITTLE effect on our mental/physical performance. - so if we have enough conscious motivation that counteract biologically loss of motivation, we can reduce sleep to about 5 hours and suffer no ill effects.

2. "given the opportunity, most of us would eat more, drink more and have more sex. But this doesn't mean we have been deprived or have unfulfilled needs. " - So, the tiredness associated with less sleep should be tolerated (and not a problem that needs to be fixed), just like how I tolerate the distress I feel when don't eat isn't good me, but which I like. (Weird I know).

So basically, it is not unhealthy to sleep less than 8 hours. Its OK to feel tired, all that I have to do is build conscious motivation such that biological tiredness/lack of motivation that comes less sleep is counterbalanced my conscious motivation. With conscious motivation, it is easy to tolerate the tiredness that comes from lack of sleep.

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by thadroe

I've read a few places that the key to sleeping less, and doing it without negative effects, is to make sure you are getting a longer amount of deep sleep. The best way I've been able to do this is plenty of exercise, especially weight lifting. When I'm not getting enough exercise, I can sleep for 10 hours and still not feel rested. When I do some good strength training, I go into a much deeper sleep and feel much more rested with only around 6 hours.

There's a book called the Pleasure Trap that has an excellent perspective on sleep, among many other things.

Thad

Thadroe, that book looks good. Any others you'd recommend?

Incidentally, I find the same thing re lifting weights. Much better sleep.

[Wanderer]

I normally sleep 8 hours a night, at one point in the past when I could go to the gym every morning it was 6 hours of so (11-5), but now without as much to motivate me (getting my moneys worth vs maths homework) I find it alot harder to get up.
Also, when I was sleeping less all my family knew Id be gone by 5 in the morning, so I wanted to keep up the habit, when I crashed they were all like what are you doing here and I was well gutted

So in short, yes, but only temporarily when I had enough stimulation to get up

[Scott Bird]

Originally Posted by Wanderer

I normally sleep 8 hours a night, at one point in the past when I could go to the gym every morning it was 6 hours of so (11-5), but now without as much to motivate me (getting my moneys worth vs maths homework) I find it alot harder to get up.

Have you stopped working out, or has your schedule changed around a bit? I'm just wondering why you've gone from 6 to 8 hours.

[Phi]

Doing sports have an enormous influence on how much sleep I need. If I do sport I need only 4-5 hours, but if I don't I need 7+ hours.

In addition I feel that I have far more energy when I do sport.