Cows' milk bad for you? What do you use instead?

[Jonathan]

A friend mentioned the other day that cows' milk can be bad for you for various reasons. I've of course heard of the school of thought that says any milk after infancy is no good, but I didn't realise cows' was so bad specifically compared to say, goats' milk. Anyone know much about this?

I've found this thread quite useful in offering vegan alternatives to milk, but does anyone have any "real milk" recommendations alternative to bovine juice? ;-)

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't think any of them are really healthy, but I believe goats' milk is superior to cows' and organic/hormone free of either is better than the regular stuff.

Sorry I don't have any real deep information for you, but I do think that it's kinda weird to drink something intended for infants of another species. Just sayin'. Why is it necessary to have "real milk" as opposed to soy or the other alternatives?

[Jonathan]

That's a very good point - is it necessary to have "real" milk as opposed to dairy-free alternatives?

I've always presumed animal products would have more protein/calcium (my main reasons for drinking the stuff) than the non-animal ones. I've not really looked into the area much - is this not the case? (Unbiased opinions please! ;-))

[XeutonMojukai]

I need to start looking into almond milk, personally...

but from what I already know, almond milk and soy milk and all those are very high-protein, and taste better than cows' milk.

BTW, here's my favorite ever thing about milk:

Red Dwarf

Holly: "Hopefully they've got a few spots and sods we could use; we've run down on a few supplies..."

Lister: "Like what?"

Holly: "Well, cows' milk for one. Ran outta that yonks ago."

Lister: *puts down glass of milk* "Then what is this that I'm drinking...?"

Holly: "Our emergency backup supply... we're onto dogs' milk"

Lister: "Dogs' milk!?"

Holly: "That's fulla goodness. Fulla vitamins... Lasts longer than any other kind of milk, dogs' milk."

Rimmer: "Why is that?"

Holly: "No bugger'll drink it."

------

Enjoy.

~ David

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I hope I didn't sound too confrontational, but I was just wondering why you felt it was necessary for you to have "real milk" - to understand where you are coming from. If it's nutrition that's your main goal here's a breakdown (from the USDA - I don't know whether you would consider that unbiased though):

Food Search

It looks like you have to do the search yourself. I tried linking the results page, but that didn't work. Anyway if you type in the various kinds of milk, you can get a full nutritional breakdown for each. I hope this helps.

[twinkie]

Cows milk is designed for baby cows, not humans. If you must have it go for fat free organic. Less antibiotics, less fat, less toxins etc. Soy as an alternative has its own issues. My son is allergic to dairy. His favorite drink is chocolate almond milk, you would never know it was not cow milk. We use a lot of fortified rice milk in cereal and baking. Sometimes he will have a soy based drink but we limit it. We have never explored goats milk for him. We see no need to. So I have no clue how it would compare health wise.

[VacMan]

I personally drink "bovine juice" and about 16 ounces a day on average.

So far I've seen no real evidence that it's bad for me.

-That being said, how can you tell what a food was intended for?

Like how do you know what you were "intended" to eat?

Who's to say that because I live in Washington State in the US, that I should not eat a banana because it was only intended for those who live in the banana's native environment?

Why are certain foods off limits for people to eat just because of the biological design, or location of the food source?

[The David]

Have any of you not been weaned?

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

What The David said...

What I meant was cows' milk was intended for baby cows. How do I know that? Um, isn't it pretty obvious that that's its original purpose? That does not mean we are not allowed to drink it. I never said it was "off limits". But I see no health benefits to drinking it that can't be had elsewhere without the kinda ewww factor. Just a personal opinion.

I was questioning the OP to find out if he felt like he had to drink milk for some reason.

[Jonathan]

Aspiring to Clarity - no worries, didn't seem confrontational! :-)

I guess I've just always seen the non-dairy alternatives as second best, based on the logic of "if those other ones are so great, why doesn't everyone drink them?"

Silly, I know, but now I'm a bit more informed I'll sort it out!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Glad I wasn't being too harsh.

I can see why you would logically come to that conclusion, but we have all been brought up to believe milk is the end all/be all. Most people are used to it and jus assume that what they've always heard is true. There's a lot of money that goes into keeping people believing that...to make sure the product sells.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

does anyone have any "real milk" recommendations alternative to bovine juice? ;-)

Why do you need any milk or alternative bovine juice...???

Many colored people are lactose intolerant... (cannot drink milk) yet they are among the best athletes in the world... for the past fifty years the only milk that I drink is about a quarter of an ounce in my coffee in the morning... and I have never suffered from it... I practice body building exercises... (over 1500 visits in the gym in the past 8 years) with no problem...

I my book... milk is way overrated... it's simply another food source... and you can do very well without it, thank you...

.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by Jonathan

A friend mentioned the other day that cows' milk can be bad for you for various reasons. I've of course heard of the school of thought that says any milk after infancy is no good, but I didn't realise cows' was so bad specifically compared to say, goats' milk. Anyone know much about this?

I've found this thread quite useful in offering vegan alternatives to milk, but does anyone have any "real milk" recommendations alternative to bovine juice? ;-)

"Real milk", huh? How about breast milk? That's about as "real" as you're going to get it... straight from the source!

And if you think the above comment is gross, realise that you are drinking the equivalent of "breast milk" from another species (which is, in my opinion, is even more gross).

Seriously though, at the moment, I personally drink both soy and rice milk (granted, I do eat a whole foods plant-based diet with no animal products, but I don't think that really matters).

I prefer the taste of rice milk to soy milk (I actually dislike the taste of milk in general, and I find rice milk to be a good alternative... you get used to it tasting "different" after a while), but I'm yet to cut out soy milk completely because I can't seem to find a rice milk in Australia that is fortified to the same degree of the (Sanitarium) soy milk I buy. Why do I want to cut out soy milk completely? Well, there are lots of good and bad reports about soy, so when nobody can give me any decent info, I try to cut it out of my diet and eat it with extreme moderation and replace it with something that is less “controversial”. Since I like rice milk better then soy milk, that’s not a problem for me.

(If there are any Aussies who know where to where to get rice milk that is fortified with things such as vitamin A, riboflavin, vitamin B12, calcium, phosphorus, and preferably, a non-animal derived form of vitamin D, please do let me know -- I'd really appreciate it.)

The whole reason I don’t drink cows milk is because (A) it’s highly processed, and from what I’ve heard, subject to a crazy amount of chemical-like, synthetic substances (hormones, etc) that I really don’t want in my body (I couldn’t go into a lot of detail about everything they do to milk because I'm not that educated, and I don’t really think I need to... regardless of what you put in something, excess processing = not good in general), (B) it seems to mess with my digestion (I’m not lactose intolerant, I just feel my whole digestion process is smoother as a result of not eating milk/cheese), (C) from what I’ve seen, it seems most of the cows who produce “regular” milk seem to get very, very poorly treated (granted, there is “organic” milk that holds the promise of a potentially better treated cow, but I can’t afford organic milk in addition to regular shopping items), and (D) I just really, really dislike the taste/texture... it’s all thick and mucous-like. *blech*

If you’re willing to try out a plant-based alternative, I’d recommend a decent soy milk that is fortified with most of what you’ll be missing when you remove cows milk from your diet (you could go for non-fortified if you can find it, but you better know what you’re doing with your diet if you were/are dependant on fortified cows milk and the general properties of cows milk -- high protein, vitamin B12, etc). You may be able to find a decent fortified rice or oat milk (something that has more then just protein and calcium fortification) if you live outside of Australia (I wouldn’t recommend oat milk, it tastes pretty damn “different” to the point where you’re not sure if you’re drinking milk anymore… in other words, in my opinion, it doesn’t taste that great), but if you’re an Aussie like me, I don’t like your chances.

If you really dislike soy milk but want to hedge your bet and cut down on cows milk (or other animal derived milk), putting my values and whatnot aside, I’d personally drink cows milk in the things where the taste is going to be very noticeable (such as cereal or drinking it straight from a glass), and use soy milk for the rest. Or, you could do what I do with things like cereal, and use a split of rice milk/oat milk (or, in your case, cows or other animal milk with soy milk) so that you don’t intake as much as you used to, but you still don’t have to completely put up with a taste (or eating/drinking large amounts of food that may or may not be that healthy for you) of something you don’t like (assuming, for the sake of this example, that you dislike the taste of soy milk).

Alternatively, if you didn’t want to go the plant based route, I read some interesting articles about un-processed “raw” milk at this website:

#1 Nina Planck Articles: Milk is Good for You. But What Kind of Milk?
#2 Nina Planck Articles: Whole Milk is Best
#3 Nina Planck Articles: How Raw Milk Got a Bad Rap
#4 Nina Planck Articles: The Role of Pasteurization
#5 Nina Planck Articles: The Virtues of Raw Milk
#6 Nina Planck Articles: Why is Milk Homogenized?

The author of the articles presents some interesting ideas/information, but she seems to be one of those people who have lots of nutritional knowledge (which is good) that has no grounding in real-world evidence (which is bad). When people make claims such as:

“It may be that an adult - if well nourished in utero, breast-fed by a well-nourished mother, and well-fed during infancy, childhood, and adolescence - can be relatively healthy, at least temporarily, on a vegan diet. But I would not risk it. There are substantial risks to the vegan individual himself, and it is difficult to get pregnant, sustain a healthy pregnancy, and to have sufficient and nutritious breast milk on a vegan diet.” - Source

And:

“Whole milk is what is called a complete food, because each ingredient plays its part. Without the fat, you can't digest the protein or absorb the calcium. The body needs saturated fat in particular (monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fat can't do the job) to take in the calcium that makes bones strong.” - Source

I don't claim to know better, but I tend to give people whole lot less credit when they polarise to such extremes (the author comes across as very "pro-milk" and "pro-non vegan"). You could say Steve is highly polarised to "pro-vegan" diet wise, but if you read some of his articles, you learn that's a writing technique he uses (ie. taking a polarised stance on ideas the general masses don't support), not a reflection of his mindset when it comes to diet/food/nutrition.

Although I'll add that while the polarised writing technique does cause people to think and react, I think a side effect is that it can also be a bit misleading at times (ie. when you say "this is bad" or "this is good" without grounding it with a "but you should also take these things into consideration"), which can hinder the transfer of genuinely useful information that is only possible when you un-polarise and submit a detailed expression from the "whole", not just from one extreme (ie. it's a case of being aware of the impact perspective and prior knowledge/experience plays in communication). But again, I think that's just (A) Steve's style, and (B) his consciously chosen method... it can work, it's just not my style or preferred method of writing, as you may see from this post.

I personally prefer people who preach “holistic” nutrition advice/info that's highly detailed and (A) gives you info about the "why" behind people's decisions/viewpoints (ie. Why make the decision in the first place? What caused you to think that way?), (B) gives you the "whole picture", including a good idea of the prerequisites that are required when you make a decision or express your viewpoint (ie. while a writer may have what they write "anchored" to experience/prior knowledge, the reader doesn't have that benefit and can be benefited more by what I call "complete" information: info that provides the reader with the necessary knowledge "anchoring" so that any info they read is given a proper context/grounding (at least, as much grounding as you can), and (C) is neither “pro-this” or “pro-that” and more about conscious, intelligent choice, expression with the interest those who will receive what is being expressed in mind, and non-reckless experiential investigation and exploration.

So, in conclusion, my advice would be to experiment, but experiment intelligently. Don't take any info for face value -- as "truth". Instead, take it as what I call "feedback" -- an expression from someone's unique, individual perspective that may be relevant relative to their perspective, but not necessarily relative to yours. It's unfortunate you have to do this, but until people learn to separate "what they express" from "truth" (which is a subjective quality, especially if you consider things such as the LoA/subjective reality), you have to compensate for their error or lack of effort to compensate for their error. Eventually I think you'll find that your desire to select/consume "healthy" food stems from a deeper level where you are yet to consciously define what you really want and what you feel is right for you.

[escapee]

The whole reason I don’t drink cows milk is because (A) it’s highly processed, and from what I’ve heard, subject to a crazy amount of chemical-like, synthetic substances (hormones, etc) that I really don’t want in my body (I couldn’t go into a lot of detail about everything they do to milk because I'm not that educated, and I don’t really think I need to

Sadly, it's the same with processed and unfermentedSoy milk ( Aluminium and antinutrients ). This is the reason why i have stopped drinking all kind of commercial milks altogether and never look back. You just have no clue what kind of crap they're putting in to make the milk tasty and addictive.

Well, you can make your own soy milk through the traditional way of fermentation and then the preparation method to ensure that the milk contains no or less crap....

High levels of phytic acid in soy reduce assimilation of calcium, magnesium, copper, iron and zinc. Phytic acid in soy is not neutralized by ordinary preparation methods such as soaking, sprouting and long, slow cooking. High phytate diets have caused growth problems in children.

Trypsin inhibitors in soy interfere with protein digestion and may cause pancreatic orders. In test animals soy containing trypsin inhibitors caused stunted growth.

Soy phytoestrogens disrupt endocrine function and have the potential to cause infertility and to promote breast cancer in adult women.

Soy phytoestrogens are potent antithyroid agents that cause hypothyroidism and may cause thyroid cancer. In infants, consumption of soy formula has been linked to autoimmune thyroid disease.

Vitamin B12 analogs in soy are not absorbed and actually increase the body’s requirement for B12.

Soy foods increase the body’s requirement for vitamin D.

Fragile proteins are denatured during high temperature processing to make soy protein isolate and textured vegetable protein.

Processing of soy protein results in the formation of toxic lysinoalanine and highly carcinogenic nitrosamines.

Free glutamic acid or MSG, a potent neurotoxin, is formed during soy food processing and added to many soy foods.

Soy foods contain high levels of aluminum which is toxic to the nervous system and the kidneys.

Myth: Modern soy foods confer the same health benefits as traditionally fermented soy foods.

Truth: Most modern soy foods are not fermented to neutralize toxins in soybeans, and are processed in a way that denatures proteins and increases levels of carcinogens.

[escapee]

You cant improve on mother nature

The adventures of filmaker Morgan Spurlock have ricocheted throughout the internet. Spurlock produced a documentary called Super Size Me: A Film of Epic Portions which he presented at this year’s Sundance Film Festival. Spurlock chronicled his decline in health over a one-month period when he ate three meals a day, every day, at McDonald’s. He gained over 25 pounds, began vomiting after just three days on the diet, battled with headaches and depression and his sex drive vanished. Most shocking was the development of liver abnormalities, confirmed by blood tests. Predictably, articles about the movie blamed the decline in liver function on saturated fats. Never mind that saturated fats are known to protect liver function, here’s the question we pose: where are the saturated fats in the McDonald’s meal? There’s not more than a few grams of saturated fat in the thin beef hamburger (30 percent of which can be made up of soy protein); otherwise, the fats in the McDonald’s meal are partially hydrogenated vegetable oils--in the bread, fries, McNuggets, dressings and desserts. Once again, the media are tarring saturated fats with the black brush of trans fatty acids. We expect more of the same as commentators make a meal out of McDonald’s CEO Jim Cantalupo’s sudden heart attack death at age 60.

Hanna Barysevich of Minsk, Belarus has reached the ripe old age of 116 years on a diet of homemade sausages, pork fat, milk and bread (Herald-Sun, Raleigh-Durham May 6, 2004). Meanwhile, Brian Maxwell, world class marathon runner and inventor of the PowerBar, promoted as scientifically formulated to provide energy to athletes and support optimal health, has died at the age of 51.

The decline in height runs across all classes and racial groups. Komlos and his colleagues recognize that diet plays a major role in determining height, noting that both the wealthy and the impoverished in America today consume mostly processed food (The New Yorker, April 5, 2004). Where they are wrong is the suggestion that eating more fruits and vegetables will make a population taller. To attain the imposing height and general good looks that characterized Americans during the Second World War, we’ll need to start eating animal fats again, and drink the kind of milk that we had during the first half of the twentieth century--raw, whole milk from pastured cows.

[msnow45man]

[QUOTE=Jonathan;89236]A friend mentioned the other day that cows' milk can be bad for you for various reasons. I've of course heard of the school of thought that says any milk after infancy is no good, but I didn't realise cows' was so bad specifically compared to say, goats' milk. Anyone know much about this?

I've found this thread quite useful in offering vegan alternatives to milk, but does anyone have any "real milk" recommendations alternative to bovine juice? ;-)[/ QUOTE]Raw milk is good(at an organic farm),but the only way you can get it ,is to own a share in a cow. There is no law against this,otherwise almond milk without sugar is the best alternative. Milk from a store is filled with antibiotics , hormones and is pasterized(which takes all the value out.) Even organic milk is not good because of the pasterizing and even though they say there is no antibiotics, they fill the cows with shots of vacinations. Believe it or not vaccinations are not good for people it actually adds toxins to the body.Your body is better off eating right and exercising.I will be having a thread on this coming up on "Health Issues In The U.S."It will talk about what to eat and not to eat and why so many people are heavy .

[scorpio1980]

Just because something wasn't made for us, doesn't mean it's bad for us, and we should never partake in it. Grains weren't made for humans, if made for anything it would be birds. I don't hear people talk about the negative health effects of grains very often. I love raw milk, and feel it is a very good source of nutrition. The part I don't understand is why people keep on bringing up the same arguments against milk being full of artificial hormones, pasturized, and homogenized, of course that stuff isn't good for you, it's an industrialized, man made product, just like soy milk. What needs to be addressed is real milk that is raw, and untouched by modern practices.

[The Big D]

I've never seen any sound argument against whole cow's milk aside from hormone issues, which can be dealt with via organic milk. Just looking at it as as a nutrient source, it's great but a little calorie heavy so you have to pay attention to quantity.