Vegans - Do you eat Eggs and Honey?

[free spirit]

As a vegan, i am in a quandary about these two food items. At the moment I eat honey, but only the best quality organic honey. I do not eat eggs. However, I am finding it hard to justify to myself why I dont eat eggs. I think I have lost my motive for not eating them.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this topic with your current eating habits, and why?

Thanks

[Uplift]

Gidday, I eat anything that doesn't kill the animal, or that I feel can be obtained without cruelty. For me that means I only eat animal products from milk, as I believe and have seen that milking can be done humanely, where the cows are very happy and well cared for, more like family pets. I used to eat heaps of eggs, up to two dozen a day, and healthwise would still love to, but I can't get my head around constantly stealing them from the chickens. Again for me, I feel that it must stress them losing eggs all the time. Milk products provide me with super high quality protein, fat, vitamins, minerals and carbs, and make it easy for me to be vegan, and keep the health, strength, fitness and training levels I want. I am also able to keep the muscular size that I want (six foot, 100kg), at the high activity level I like. It is comparitively easy to hold muscular weight if you are living a bodybuilders or weightlifters lifestyle of training, resting, and eating, but not so easy if you are really active as well. And I have absolutely no time for, or interest in steroids, prohormones, insulin, or growth hormone. Personally, I found it difficult and time consuming to obtain protein, good fats and cholesterol (testosterone) without milk. I'm absolutely stoked with my diet, I am 51, don't get sick, and can train really hard, be really active, recover really well, and feel awesome. Good luck with your personal choices and eating plan.

[free spirit]

Thanks for that. Its really useful to hear other peoples diet choices and options.

[bdp]

Honey, eggs and milk aren't a moral problem for me, because I believe they can be obtained from sources that treat the animals with respect (correct me if I'm wrong).

However, I don't consume them because there is far more healthful food available.

[Beloved]

Vegans don't eat any animal product, which includes anything an animal produces, ie eggs, honey, milk etc, vegetarians eat no meat items but do eat animal produce.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I think honey could be a questionable point, but eggs are definitely not vegan according to the most lenient definition of the word. If you want to eat them and feel no conviction doing so, more power to you. However as labels go, you would do better to use the term ovo-vegetarian (or simply vegetarian). Like Beloved said, vegans, by definition, eat no animal products whatsoever.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Personally i don't see the difference between killing a grapfruit and killing a chicken (I still refrain from eating a lot of meat most of the time) But still....fundamnetally it's all the same stuff right..?

[joey m]

Personally i don't see the difference between killing a grapfruit and killing a chicken (I still refrain from eating a lot of meat most of the time) But still....fundamnetally it's all the same stuff right..?

Really? What then would be the difference between killing a human being and killing a chicken or a grapefruit? Is that fundamentally the same stuff? For that matter, what about a dog, or a monkey? I am wondering where you draw the line and how you draw the line. What in your opinion is the distinction between any and/or all of these entities?

Best,
Joey

[escapee]

Really? What then would be the difference between killing a human being and killing a chicken or a grapefruit? Is that fundamentally the same stuff?

Akashic_Librarian is one of the few decent ppl who are able to grasp the "true meaning" of subjective reality (like the case of virginia tech). Oh no, I'm not starting another debate here about SR....

[Akashic_Librarian]

Aww Escapee shucks...*looks down and fidgets with hands*

[joey m]

I'm not attacking, I am genuinely asking. The post certainly begs the question that I am asking.....

[Akashic_Librarian]

Ok Joey heres what I mean. I draw the line where I want. And frankly, I wouldn't be adverse to eating a human being if nothing else was available, certainly. But because of my excellent skill with SR (Only joking) that situation should never occur.

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by joey m

Really? What then would be the difference between killing a human being and killing a chicken or a grapefruit?

Civilians are permitted to kill chickens (humanely) and grapefruit, while only the government gives itself permission to kill humans. Different societies have different views on this. In some "primitive" societies of the past a male was not a man until he had killed someone (I'm not sure where any good links about this are, it's simply what I was taught in anthropology class).

Plenty of societies eat dog (to ancient taoists it's the only domesticated animal worth eating), and monkey is bush meat. The main potential health reason I could see for not eating human or monkey would be the increased chance of disease transmission. It's likely for a similar reason that pigs have to be cooked so much before eating (they're quite similar to humans, in taste and otherwise).

[The David]

Originally Posted by free spirit

As a vegan, i am in a quandary about these two food items. At the moment I eat honey, but only the best quality organic honey. I do not eat eggs. However, I am finding it hard to justify to myself why I dont eat eggs. I think I have lost my motive for not eating them.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this topic with your current eating habits, and why?

Thanks

Gasp!

You aren't in the club!

Seriously, though, you're not technically vegan if you eat any animal product.
However...I don't know if it's possible to eat 100% vegan, if that means excluding any trace of animal. It doesn't seem possible to avoid the slightest trace. At the restaurant I work at, I cook soyburgers on the same grill as hamburgers. At the supermarket, I'm sure some of your 'vegan' products are contaminated as well.

Veganism seems more like a religion to me than a diet. I think a better question would be 'is this healthy?' not, 'is this vegan?'.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Good Question The David

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by Uplift

Gidday, I eat anything that doesn't kill the animal, or that I feel can be obtained without cruelty. For me that means I only eat animal products from milk, as I believe and have seen that milking can be done humanely, where the cows are very happy and well cared for, more like family pets.

Do you go out of your way to ensure that whatever dairy you use is produced in such a humane manner, or do you buy any dairy because it could be produced that way? Is there a small family farm near you where you go pick it up yourself and maybe even occasionally visit/pet the cows? With commerical dairy production quite a bit of killing is involved, as calfs become veal while their mothers go on producing excess quantities of milk (often increased via added hormones). There are co-ops in many areas where you can gain access to better milk, but it's not the norm by any means (unless you live in rural India, perhaps).

"Traditional small dairies, located primarily in the northeast and midwest are going out of business. They are being replaced by intensive 'dry lot' dairies which are typically located in the southwest.

"Regardless of where they live, however, all dairy cows must give birth in order to begin producing milk. Today, dairy cows are forced to have a calf every year. Like human beings, the cow's gestation period is nine months long, and so giving birth every twelve months is physically demanding. The cows are also forced to give milk during seven months of their nine month pregnancy. In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of 25 years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered after just 3 or 4 years and then used for ground beef. Credit: Farm Sanctuary

"With genetic manipulation and intensive production technologies, it is common for modern dairy cows to produce 100 pounds of milk a day -- ten times more than they would produce in nature. The cows' bodies are under constant stress and they are at risk for numerous health problems."

Dairy, Veal, Milk, Cruelty, Factory Farming | Mercy For Animals

[joey m]

Ok Joey heres what I mean. I draw the line where I want. And frankly, I wouldn't be adverse to eating a human being if nothing else was available, certainly. But because of my excellent skill with SR (Only joking) that situation should never occur.

Does this mean there is no line, or does it mean you draw the line where you want? It seems you are saying both at the same time. If there is no line, why not kill a human being even if something else was available? If the line is where you want, where is that line?

Civilians are permitted to kill chickens (humanely) and grapefruit, while only the government gives itself permission to kill humans. Different societies have different views on this. In some "primitive" societies of the past a male was not a man until he had killed someone (I'm not sure where any good links about this are, it's simply what I was taught in anthropology class).

Plenty of societies eat dog (to ancient taoists it's the only domesticated animal worth eating), and monkey is bush meat. The main potential health reason I could see for not eating human or monkey would be the increased chance of disease transmission. It's likely for a similar reason that pigs have to be cooked so much before eating (they're quite similar to humans, in taste and otherwise).

Openeyes -- I think you are right to say that the government in many ways dictates right and wrong. But of course this is ephemeral since each government then has different views of right and wrong as you pointed out (e.g. the Chinese think eating dog is fine, whereas we don't).

But, I have never been convinced that governments are capable of handling this responsibility -- after all, governments have committed the most horrendous crimes against morality. So, aren't we each responsible for determining a code of ethics within societal laws that we deem to be good and just? And if so, shouldn't we be able to articulate it?

Best,
Joey

[openeyes]

Originally Posted by joey m

governments have committed the most horrendous crimes against morality. So, aren't we each responsible for determining a code of ethics within societal laws that we deem to be good and just? And if so, shouldn't we be able to articulate it?

Best,
Joey

For citizens of most nations, the greatest threat to one's life aside from accidents and aging is their own government. I choose not to eat humans because I value them more highly as social companions, other food is available, and I would have empathy for the pain others who loved them would feel if they were killed.

Had they died of natural causes though, there are (or at least were in the past few decades) tribes in the Amazon who ate the ashes of their loved ones as a sort of communion. To me that's romantic, though I don't know if I'd go for it. Likewise in the US one can have a loved one's ashes turned into a diamond.

I think it's a waste of resources to preserve the form of bodies after death by adding chemicals and placing them in a coffin. At the very least it uses up a massive amount of real estate. I'd like to fertilize a garden if/when I permanently leave my body.

[joey m]

Openeyes -- Wow! Nicely put. I am in agreement with all you said.

Best,
Joey

[Uplift]

I agree with everything you say 'openeyes'. As I said, I believe, and have seen that we can have the ideal situation regarding obtaining milk from cows. Thats my focus.

[september]

Eggs and honey =/= vegan.

As for drawing the line, for the vegan who becomes vegan for moral purposes, it's still not a religion. it's a part of a lifestyle that respects (in my case) the sentient creature as one who can feel pain, and who doesn't deserve to suffer that pain.

It's NOT the same as a grapefruit because grapefruits don't have nerve endings, nor do they have the necessary parts of the brain that can give rise to sentience. The jury's still out on some animals, but I'd rather be safe than sorry on whether cows, chickens, and pigs (who have the intelligence of human 4-year-olds) are conscious. Even if they aren't (in the case of fish, scientists are not sure whether fish have the appropriate nerve endings, but see it as a possibility), one is still bound by the fact that these animals feel pain and suffer. They do not suffer "humanely". Even kosher slaughter can be inhumane, mainly because they are usually not the quick deaths they are promised to be.

I drink rice milk because it's yummy, it's less fattening than milk ("2%" milk is calculated by weight... it's actually 35% fat), and there's just no guarantee that any milk was milked humanely unless you're watching it happen (or know the farmers). I've never liked eggs, and I don't see much reason to use honey.

Animal proteins are toxic, and consuming too many of them can have dangerous consequences. It's just not as simple as grapefruits and cows. And if one is to consider the moral ramifications, examining other cultures that do eat different meats is not sufficient.

[Uplift]

I like a lot of what you say september, but your statement;

'Animal proteins are toxic, and consuming too many of them can have dangerous consequences.'

This isn't true in my case. I am in awesome health and shape, and eat heaps of milk derived protein daily (up to 200gms). I also ate up to two dozen eggs a day for around a dozen years, and passed every medical with flying colours. I am fifty one and feel deluxe, and most people think I am in my mid thirties. So unless I am a freak of nature, the opposite about animal proteins applies to me.

[ChefSalad]

A couple of things:

1) I'm not sure that all vegans consider honey to be off-limits. I believe it's one of those debatable rules.

2) 2% milk IS 2% fat. It has 40% of the amount of fat that's in whole milk. In fact, nearly all milk products are made in the exact same way. First, the milkfat is separated from the skim milk. The skim milk is bottled as is. All other milks have fat mixed back in as a percentage of total weight. 1/2% has 1/2%, 2% has 2%, whole milk has 5%, half-and-half usually has 10%, light cream has between 15% and 20% and heavy cream has 30% or more, as 30% milkfat is the minimum required for whipping cream.

3) I personally find animal protein to be absolutely necessary for health. No matter how a planned and calculated and worked at it, I could not eat a vegan diet and stay healthy. I lost muscle and gained fat (although I lost weight, those aren't the same thing). With animal protein (and lots of it, over 300g per day), I'm losing fat and keeping my muscle (even making occasional gains).

Having said that, I'm sure that some people do perfectly fine on a vegan diet. But not everyone does and not me.

4) I agree with the Librarian. I see no moral quandary in the eating of tasty animals. I'm not a big fan of dairy, but that's for other reasons. I understand that some butchers and farms are ridiculous in their treatment, but I don't really want to concern myself with that. It's not my battle. I do, however, try to eat kosher/halal meat whenever possible. Kosher/halal meat must be raised and butchered in a humane manner. It's actually cheaper than supermarket meat.

[escapee]

Animal proteins are toxic, and consuming too many of them can have dangerous consequences.

Animal proteins are toxic under the absense of essential fatty acids (Check Masai, Traditional eskimo, Aussie aborig and uplift who eat mostly unprocessed animal food ). Any health food in excess is bad, any bad food even in moderation is detrimental to one's health, including the excess "vegetarian" cabohydrate(refined) intake that plagues most of the sedentary modern man with diabetes and obesity.

[ChefSalad]

Originally Posted by escapee

including the excess "vegetarian" cabohydrate(refined) intake that plagues most of the sedentary modern man with diabetes and obesity.

Exactly. It's damn hard to eat anything that isn't extremely carb-centric when you're a vegan, which just doesn't work for most people.

[Uplift]

Spot on with the carb thing, pretty hard to deny or refute it. It might just be a coincidence, but there's mega profit in carbs... just look at the big budget advertising spectrum.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by free spirit

As a vegan, i am in a quandary about these two food items. At the moment I eat honey, but only the best quality organic honey. I do not eat eggs. However, I am finding it hard to justify to myself why I dont eat eggs. I think I have lost my motive for not eating them.

I would be grateful if you could respond to this topic with your current eating habits, and why?

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Do you eat eggs and honey?
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To be brief, I'm currently vegan, and the only "animal product" I may eat occasionally is honey (no eggs, milk, meat, etc). I don't make an effort to lather everything I eat with honey, but I won't go out of my way to avoid it if it comes up in something I eat (eg. if I eat out and whatever I'm eating has honey in it, or if I buy some ingredients and they have honey in them).

I actually prefer maple syrup to honey, however it's pretty expensive (I'm not exactly loaded), and quite a few food manufacturers use honey over other sweeteners (good luck finding a manufacturer that uses maple syrup). I can see myself not eating honey at all if I lived in America, but as an Aussie vegan, I try to not excessively limit myself in what I can buy/eat. Australia -- at least where I live -- doesn't offer the average vegan many options when it comes to buying food (Aussie vegans who find otherwise, feel free to PM me and prove me wrong... I'd love to have more options, and if you know any good info, I'd appreciate if you could send it my way).

Some may say that the inclusion of honey in my diet (however small it may be) makes me a non-vegan, but I'd say I'm a human, not a label. I mainly use the "vegan" label for convenience when I communicate with others. Outside of that (ie. trying to reach some sort of ideal by aspiring to being "a vegan") I think labels lose their value and become unhealthy attachments. Personally I don't see myself "as" a vegan, or even as someone who "eats a vegan diet" -- I see myself as someone who eats. I don't need to give myself a label, I just eat what I choose to eat. I believe to make it any more complicated then that is an activity to boost/reinforce your ego and a quest into what I call "silly thinking".

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Why do I eat vegan?
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Experimentation, mostly. It also has other benefits such as a reduction in animal cruelty. I definitely feel much more "cleaner" (for lack of a better word) eating a vegan diet (another vegan I've talked to said the same thing... and yes, I've only met one other vegan around my area -- we're a rare breed ), but I haven't noticed any other major differences. I think that's mainly because I was relatively healthy before I went vegan. I transitioned to a vegan diet slowly (over a few months), so any changes I experiences may not have been very pronounced.

But I certainly don't claim to be the pinnacle of health -- it's quite possible I would see more benefits if I made further improvements to my diet. In terms of how healthy I am now, I’ve honestly felt/been better, but I wouldn’t attribute any of that to my vegan diet. Instead, I’d attribute it to (A) my conscious decision to put less focus on health and more focus on other areas of my life for a while (I was pretty health focused about a year ago), (B) the fact that I'm what I’d call an "experiential vegan", and (C) some disempowering beliefs/thinking patterns that I’ve recently become conscious of and am in the process of dealing with (from my experience, your thoughts have a big impact on your overall state of health).

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What do I mean when I say "experiential vegan"?
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Well, I mainly dove into a vegan diet with very little knowledge of specific nutrition info. I hadn’t read any books (only a few articles) and was very much a vegan newbie, but that was a conscious choice on my part. Basically, before going vegan, I decided that I’d jump in first and deal things as they came up (both positive and negative). In retrospect that was kind of a reckless/foolish approach to use, but as you can see from this post, I’m not dead yet, and I’m certainly not what I’d define as “unhealthy” (there’s been no negative repercussions that I'm aware of, either). I am, however, dissatisfied with my current bodily condition (again, I'm not unhealthy, I’ve just come to learn that I’m not satisfied with anything other then optimal health), and am currently taking measures to improve it.

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Other info
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In case your interested, I’ve also written at length about my experiences with a vegan diet in the following posts:

• My experiences with healthy eating (I didn't mention why I don't eat eggs in the post you're reading now, but I did in the one I just linked to)
• My experiences with a vegan diet

I'll also mention that there are plenty of substitutes to honey. To name a few (ones I've actually tried), maple syrup, rice malt (I used to eat another form of malt when I was younger, but I can't remember what it was made from or if it was vegan), molasses (perhaps a bit strong, although you could always mix it with malt or something else). I'm sure there are many others, but I'm yet to try anything else (unless I'm forgetting something).

Personally maple syrup is my favourite (rice malt is pretty bland and not very sweet). I mostly use it sparingly in things like fruit shakes/smoothies, over cereal (muesli), but it's pretty versatile. Vanilla essence (the natural one without alcohol in it) is good too, but that's more useful as a flavouring, not a sweetener.

What you will find useful will depend on your particular preferences and product availability.

[Bruce Achterberg]

Originally Posted by joey m

What then would be the difference between killing a human being and killing a chicken or a grapefruit? Is that fundamentally the same stuff? For that matter, what about a dog, or a monkey? I am wondering where you draw the line and how you draw the line. What in your opinion is the distinction between any and/or all of these entities?

Hehe, funny you should mention that. When I first experimented with a vegan diet I was very pro-vegan, but it was eventually this line of thinking (ie. what you mention) that made me chill out a bit.

Honestly, you have to draw the line somewhere (unless you don’t want to eat/live). But the difference between drawing the line at plant food and an animal is that the plant doesn’t show such severe signs of suffering (compared to an animal) when you "kill"/harvest it.

To my knowledge, a plant doesn’t cower, run away, or squeal in terror when you try to kill it. I don’t deny that there’s a good chance that plants do suffer to a degree and we merely aren’t able to perceive it (maybe we can and I’m just ignorant), but for me diet is all about a question posed to us by the universe, and what I end up eating is my answer to that question.

Personally, at this moment in time, I choose to reduce suffering as much as possible while still being able to continue a healthy, positive existence. I also choose to honour what sustains my existence by striving to live the best life that I can.

I’ve written about my experiences with a vegan diet before, and by far the most profound benefit of my transition to such a diet was that is served to induce growth and make me more conscious and aware.

Ultimatly, though, I'm pro-conscious choice. Choice is the only thing that's going to raise awareness, and it's the way the universe functions (at least I think so).

[joey m]

Personally, at this moment in time, I choose to reduce suffering as much as possible while still being able to continue a healthy, positive existence.

I love this sentence Bruce! This is exactly how I try to live my life as well. Being vegan is a lovely way to reduce as much suffering as possible, and that is a large part of why I am vegan too.

Of course, the other large part is that I also believe that if it is done right, there is no healthier way to eat. The "carb" fears posted by some of the others in this thread is unfounded.

Best,
Joey

[escapee]

The "carb" fears posted by some of the others in this thread is unfounded.

When it comes to carb ( especially starch based )

It's either you burn it or wear it.