My problem with vegeterians and vegans

[gwl9dta4]

Keep in mind that I'm referring to the people themselves and not the eating style. The eating style is sound, just like any other of the hundred's of diets out there. They're all effective if applied correctly and consistently.

But the issue i have is this. Why do the practitioners of the vegetarian lifestyles espouse their beliefs and portray other dietary choices as somewhat less humane. They insinuate that for example they're more enlightened. That if you knew what they know, you too would switch. They like to speak of the disgust of meat and the killing other living organisms to eat them.

Look at it this way, does the size of an organism matter? Does an organism that's bigger experience more pain then the smaller one? Do they suffer differently? What about organisms that are based on a different biology from us? Can we quantify them as irrelevant?

Tress do not like to be eaten. Grass does not like to be eaten. Many species of plants excrete poison within minutes of being nibbled. I would think there is an action reaction going on there. The plants are defending the best way they know how.

Animals suffer when eaten. Kill them humanely and they suffer less.

Harvest crops for the sake of not killing any animals and all the fields flooded for farming and harvesting end up killing mice and every other creature that makes farm fields their home. Is the mouse less deserving of life as an animal because it's small and annoying?

What about meat eaters that eat wild fish?



My view is that all lifestyle choices are correct in moderation. You like vegan? go for it. You like meat? go for it, etc etc etc....


The ONLY reason people get in trouble with their diet habits is not due to the food choice. It's due to the quantity and portion size of ANY given food choice, with some exceptions. Vegetarians and vegans have a cool benefit that it's very hard and discouraging to overeat on such diets. So in effects they end up eating significantly less calories while getting more of certain nutrients. So getting leaner is a side effect along with better health.


Take a meat eater that follows good eating habits and calorie control and he/she will be just as healthy as the vegan. Eat whatever makes you look good and feel good.

Leave morality out of it.

[Angela]

Well, some people feel it's immoral to support a system that treats food animals inhumanely, not just in the way they're murdered, gwl9dta4 (I'm just gonna call you "g"), but perhaps more importantly, the horrible life they are subjected to in preparation for slaughter. Also, there's the matter of ecological damage. Not to mention, the terrible mistreatment of the humans that are employed by the food industry, the way they're treated as disposable commodities, and other nasty effects that the mainstream food industry can have on all of us and our communities.

Someone who feels that way might be interested in being heard, and in making a difference in the way others eat, in the interest of people being healthy as well as the interest of our planet's and all it's non-human inhabitants' well-being.

I can certainly see that there's a moral issue, and people certainly have the right to be fully expressed about their views.

[joey m]

I think you raise some very valid points, and as a vegan, I'd like to address some of them.

First, I agree with you that the preaching by vegans can be annoying and often counterproductive. I think vegans often feel very empowered when they realize they can make a difference in the lives of animals by choosing not to eat them. It is such a wonderful feeling they that they feel if everyone just knew what they knew, than everybody would become vegan. Of course, this is extremely annoying to those who don't care as deeply about those issues or would prefer not to think about it. Often, I would say it is people who are new to the vegan movement that are "evangelistic." Those of us who have been doing it longer tend to keep our excitement to ourselves, because we have realized we do more harm than good by trying to push our beliefs onto others.

Instead of being evangelistic, I have found it is best to live by example. This is true with whatever you do in life. If people find what you do interesting, they will ask and then you can speak to them about it. Otherwise, it is best to just keep things to yourself.

Second, I take a slightly different approach to the humaneness argument than you do. In your opinion, would it be more wrong to kill 1 mouse by accident, or to kill 4 mice by accident plus a cow, a chicken and some fish (while also having those latter animals lead lives of torture)? Well, the problem we face in modern culture is that we all do some harm to animals just by existing. As you say, harvesting crops will often lead to deaths of small animals. Also, by living in cities we have taken away animals' natural habitats. Our industrial pollutants are dumped into the oceans and kill tons of fish. All of this is true.

But, we can choose to help other animals out. We don't have to live off of the torture of "food" animals. We can limit the amount of small animals killed by harvesting crops if we stopped eating meat -- most of the grains in this country are grown and processed to feed our "food" animals, not to feed humans.

I have never bought the whole slippery slope argument -- in other words, as long as we are doing some harm, doing more harm is not any worse. Yes we are doing some harm, but those of us who are vegan are in fact trying to do less harm to animals. I don't believe that puts vegans on the moral high ground, and I don't believe it makes us better than non-vegans, but I do believe that by being vegan we are making a difference in the lives of many animals. Vegans are to be commended for believing in something and for having the discipline and fortitude to live in accordance with those beliefs. But as I said, that doesn't make a vegan "better" than anybody else.

Thirdly, I agree with you about your point regarding a healthy meat-eater can be just as healthy as a vegan. In fact, I don't believe being vegan makes you healthy -- there are plenty of junk-food vegans out there. To eat a healthy diet, the bulk of the diet must be made up of vegetables, fruits, legumes and some nuts and seeds. Meat can be thrown in there and not effect health negatively as long as it doesn't comprise a large portion of the diet. I have never seen a study that says being fully vegan promotes health any better than limiting animal foods to under 10% of calories. Once animal foods become too high a portion of your diet though, negative health consequences are likely to follow.

So, here is one vegan's perspective -- I'm sure you will get others.

Best,
Joey

[gwl9dta4]

Originally Posted by joey m

I think you raise some very valid points, and as a vegan, I'd like to address some of them.

First, I agree with you that the preaching by vegans can be annoying and often counterproductive. I think vegans often feel very empowered when they realize they can make a difference in the lives of animals by choosing not to eat them. It is such a wonderful feeling they that they feel if everyone just knew what they knew, than everybody would become vegan. Of course, this is extremely annoying to those who don't care as deeply about those issues or would prefer not to think about it. Often, I would say it is people who are new to the vegan movement that are "evangelistic." Those of us who have been doing it longer tend to keep our excitement to ourselves, because we have realized we do more harm than good by trying to push our beliefs onto others.

Instead of being evangelistic, I have found it is best to live by example. This is true with whatever you do in life. If people find what you do interesting, they will ask and then you can speak to them about it. Otherwise, it is best to just keep things to yourself.

Second, I take a slightly different approach to the humaneness argument than you do. In your opinion, would it be more wrong to kill 1 mouse by accident, or to kill 4 mice by accident plus a cow, a chicken and some fish (while also having those latter animals lead lives of torture)? Well, the problem we face in modern culture is that we all do some harm to animals just by existing. As you say, harvesting crops will often lead to deaths of small animals. Also, by living in cities we have taken away animals' natural habitats. Our industrial pollutants are dumped into the oceans and kill tons of fish. All of this is true.

But, we can choose to help other animals out. We don't have to live off of the torture of "food" animals. We can limit the amount of small animals killed by harvesting crops if we stopped eating meat -- most of the grains in this country are grown and processed to feed our "food" animals, not to feed humans.

I have never bought the whole slippery slope argument -- in other words, as long as we are doing some harm, doing more harm is not any worse. Yes we are doing some harm, but those of us who are vegan are in fact trying to do less harm to animals. I don't believe that puts vegans on the moral high ground, and I don't believe it makes us better than non-vegans, but I do believe that by being vegan we are making a difference in the lives of many animals. Vegans are to be commended for believing in something and for having the discipline and fortitude to live in accordance with those beliefs. But as I said, that doesn't make a vegan "better" than anybody else.

Thirdly, I agree with you about your point regarding a healthy meat-eater can be just as healthy as a vegan. In fact, I don't believe being vegan makes you healthy -- there are plenty of junk-food vegans out there. To eat a healthy diet, the bulk of the diet must be made up of vegetables, fruits, legumes and some nuts and seeds. Meat can be thrown in there and not effect health negatively as long as it doesn't comprise a large portion of the diet. I have never seen a study that says being fully vegan promotes health any better than limiting animal foods to under 10% of calories. Once animal foods become too high a portion of your diet though, negative health consequences are likely to follow.

So, here is one vegan's perspective -- I'm sure you will get others.

Best,
Joey

Good post sir.

I would like to mention though. We are all meat eaters. Especially all the plants we like to eat. Plants will consume all buried meat, fish etc and brake it down to nitrogen and use it as a fundamental building block of all their tissues. Us humans do the same exact thing. I take a view of it like this: If my body can digest it and use it then it was meant to process those nutrients. Keyword i guess is, everything in moderation.

It should be noted that there are plenty of meat plants that are top notch facilities with happy animals grazing freely for years before being killed off. Some, like the suppliers of fast food places can really be real life nightmares. But as a responsible omnivore, i eat only quality certified meats and i pay the price for them. Same with veggies, fruits, fish and ofcourse food supplements.

I feel like meat should not be cheap. Making it cheap is what that problem is, IMO.

[bdp]

I wish that all meat-eaters were like gwl9dta4, and all vegans were like joey m.

You both have the most productive, healthy and balanced attitudes on this subject that I have seen in a long time. In my opinion, you are both 100% right. You can be extremely healthy and moral regardless of your status as meat-eater or veg*n--the key is balance, education and careful judgment. Most people exercise none of these qualities when they choose their diet.

I really like joey m's comment about cheap meat being the problem. That is the problem with most food. It's not cheap to raise animals healthily and humanely, and it's not as cheap or easy to grow plants without pesticides. The cheapest food per calorie is usually the least healthful. It would be nice if that situation were reversed.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

I feel like meat should not be cheap. Making it cheap is what that problem is, IMO.

It's cheap because of a high demand for cheap meat products. Supply increases to meet demand when possible.

Also, around the world, $1 USD is not cheap. Its a couple days of work, depending on what country you're in.

[Amadeus]

Life begets life .........Period

[Mysom]

Dear gwl9dta4,

Morality is very important for human beings - isn't that what differentiates us from the other species? We each have an important responsibility to define our own sense of morality and walk our talk.

Read the following essay by Michael E. Berumen who was a meat eater all his life, and then switched to become a vegetarian just because of his sense of morality.

[escapee]

Once animal foods become too high a portion of your diet though, negative health consequences are likely to follow.

To be more precise .....

- A researcher by the name of Lebedow in 1888 discovered when he fed starving dogs either 100% protein or 100% fat, they died quicker than if they had been fed nothing. But when he fed them protein and fat, they quickly recovered. Protein and good fat must work together to perform their magic within us. For good health they are inseparable. -

Amazon.com: Fats That Heal Fats That Kill - Erasmus, (Books): Health & Personal Care

[AidanMatthews216]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

But the issue i have is this. Why do the practitioners of the vegetarian lifestyles espouse their beliefs and portray other dietary choices as somewhat less humane. They insinuate that for example they're more enlightened. That if you knew what they know, you too would switch. They like to speak of the disgust of meat and the killing other living organisms to eat them.

I can't put any value judgment on the way you eat. Your values are solely up to you. I can't judge your actions because I can't act for you. But I personally prefer not to eat meat.

My view is that all lifestyle choices are correct in moderation. You like vegan? go for it. You like meat? go for it, etc etc etc....

I agree.

Leave morality out of it.

I can leave morality out of it when I think about your actions, but I can't leave it out of my own life.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

My view is that all lifestyle choices are correct in moderation. You like vegan? go for it. You like meat? go for it, etc etc etc....

That's where you went wrong. If everything is correct in moderation, than nothing is correct in moderation.

[Andrew Brunelle]

In my opinion, eating meat is something that I believe everyone has done before, and whether or not you like it, it is something that is not particularly good for you in excess. It is also not good for the animals who get slaughtered just so you can enjoy a hamburger or chicken fingers platter at whatever restaurant you like to go to. I do not look down upon meat eaters, nor do I place vegans on a pedestal. The moral issue is there, it is definitely there, as in your lifetime, you contribute to many animal/insect deaths and the more meat you eat, the more responsible you are for the cruelty in the animal kingdom.

Sure, maybe mice are killed to make farmland, but I am sure they are also killed to make grazing land for the cattle and to build those factory farms, not to mention those grazing lands and factory farms then kill thousands of animals, making it a double cruelty. I am not one to judge, but if you are someone who believes in moral values, and someone who cares about the fate of the world and recognizes our unsustainable culture, you will begin to make a change in your lifestyle. If we can survive without torturing animals, why not give it a try? I'm sure the animals would appreciate it.

Perhaps, gwl----, it is the fact that you resist the truth of what eating animals does to the world. Perhaps when someone tells you what you are contributing to, you are in denial about it. That is why I believe a fully conscious vegan, one who does not do it because it is "fashionable," but because he/she is aware of the consequences of his/her actions, is someone I have tremendous respect for. I have tremendous respect, also, for the conscious meat eater, who does not say, "I don't want to think about where my food comes from," but acknowledges they are contributing to cruelty. That is all i have to say.

[escapee]

In my opinion, eating meat is something that I believe everyone has done before, and whether or not you like it, it is something that is not particularly good for you in excess.

Anything (health food) in excess is not good. Balance is the key.

[Ravi]

As a lifelong vegetarian (well....for 20 of my 27 years) and vegan for 5 years...I can honestly say that most vegetarians are not at all like what you mention.

You will find fundamentalists amongst any type of belief system, wether you are talking about politics, religion or even dietary habits!....but this does not make it the norm.

[Groundless]

It's not cheap to raise animals healthily and humanely, and it's not as cheap or easy to grow plants without pesticides. The cheapest food per calorie is usually the least healthful.

So the WalMart mentality customer is the problem (chasing the cheap food, products, etc)?

Relative to Vegan fundamentalists:
Vegans who raise their voice telling me not to eat my grass fed pastured and nurtured cow that I bought in advance while eating M&M's and donuts regularly makes me laugh.

What I think is needed is to thin the human herd and to get back to being hunter-gatherers. (semi-sarcastic attempt at humor here)

[Scin]

Originally Posted by Ravi

You will find fundamentalists amongst any type of belief system, wether you are talking about politics, religion or even dietary habits!....but this does not make it the norm.

Quoted for truth.

I personally believe that meat is an essential part of my diet. I have the curious trait of despising the actual act of eating. It takes away precious time from my day, you see. As such, I don't eat particularly frequently or in large quantities, and so I need to be very careful about balancing what I eat so I don't, um, die. Meat is a quick and easy route to protein and certain enzymes and amino acids that are difficult or more expensive to acquire through non-meat foods.

That I seem to lack much feeling about the suffering of the source of that meat is ultimately irrelevant. On a similar note, I have little need to evangelize about my dietary habits. I just don't care.

[september]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

Look at it this way, does the size of an organism matter? Does an organism that's bigger experience more pain then the smaller one? Do they suffer differently? What about organisms that are based on a different biology from us? Can we quantify them as irrelevant?

Tress do not like to be eaten. Grass does not like to be eaten. Many species of plants excrete poison within minutes of being nibbled. I would think there is an action reaction going on there. The plants are defending the best way they know how.

Animals suffer when eaten. Kill them humanely and they suffer less.

I do have a bit of a bone to pick with this. You're ascribing sentience where it shouldn't be ascribed. Plants and trees don't have the correct parts that give rise to consciousness. Animals do.

We are all guided by instinctual actions to a degree; animals moreso than us, and plants moreso than animals. Plants just reduplicate their "parent" according to the conditions they are placed in. They aren't saying "don't eat me!" actively when secreting poison. It's protective, sure. But it's protective in the same way evolution is selective - the plants with certain tendencies and mutations survived more often, and so that plant feature carried on. Plants don't "know" or "try" to survive. Animals do have a conscious element to them, and so I think we need to respect that in a different and more comprehensive way than we would plants.

I will note that I certainly respect people buying "happy farm" meat more than factory-farmed meat. However, it's difficult to know the animals are really raised in "happy" conditions unless you can visit the animal on the farm and watch them being slaughtered. Often "compassionate" brands, even kosher ones, violate any sense of compassion and even violate kosher laws on a regular basis. Often, these plants still pump the animals in question with chemicals that are certainly not good for you. Thus, buyer beware.

Animals suffer when eaten. Kill them humanely and they suffer less. Don't kill them and you won't have the blood on your hands.

[ChaosKiwi]

I think there is conflict in your argument. You have a "problem with vegans and vegetarians" yet you believe all lifestyle choices are all right in moderation.

Just like some kids have to ignore other kids who call them names, you have to live with these vege fanatics. Why fight your reality? That being said I'm pretty sure your not walking past vegetarians on street corners trying to convert others to their lifestyle. Prehaps you could avoid the spaces that are vegan heavy? (this is one of them).

Also on another point, eating an apple doesn't kill the apple tree. Some plants actually require animals do eat their fruit in order for the seeds to be spread and fertilized.

I'm sorry if this seems a tad hostile, in fact I used to think along the same lines (see my post asking if veganism is better for cows than a knife and fork?), but I've found its alot easier to let it go.

[ginkgo]

You are talking about vegans not vegetarians since many vegetarians are doing it for health and do not care about animals. This one vegetarian would say that she is not a vegetarian because she loves animals but because she hates plants. I do not know if Albert Einstein loved animals but he was a vegetarian. No animal foods have any fiber which you need. All plant foods have plenty of fiber (unless taken out by man).

Some vegans appear to like animals more than people. Maybe some of them were raped by a person but were never raped by an animal. Also what you said applies to Christains. They are more enlightened than everyone else and if you knew what they did, then you would be one too. Same with Muslims. Jet Li is a Buddhist and that is the group that made vegetarianism popular.

Actually I am wrong. You just described humans or people. There are groups that teach it is okay to have sex with little kids and if you were smart like them, then you would know it is OK. The same with Nazis. If Hitler would have won the war and taken over the world then he would now be worshipped as the father of the new world.

History would teach that there were these terrible demon-like people called Jews but Hitler got rid of them so you do not need to worry about them killing your baby to make matza. This was a popular belief in Europe. Also according to all Popes, except the most recent, [Hitler was Catholic] Jews also killed the savoir of the world, Jesus.

So what you said is known as prejuidice and bigots have their reasons for hating blacks. Albert Einstein was a Jew and a vegetarian. Here is the proof that vegetarians are more enlightened than others. Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian. My problem with blacks

Keep in mind that I'm referring to the people themselves and not the color of their skin. The above I copied from your post and changed a few words.

[Cassie]

It all boils down to awareness and taking personal responsibility for our own actions (in this case, what we choose to ingest).

Let's say, for example, that you and I are both aware of how a particular famous fast food chain is supplied cheap beef through Brazil. To accomodate massive cattle farms for adequate beef production and export, this directly results in the mass destruction and deforestation of thousands of acres of Amazon rainforest.

Armed with awareness of where the beef is coming from, we both realize the effects on current ecosystems. We are both also given the precious gift of free will. Through awareness, we can thus each make an informed choice on certain courses of action in our lives, such as whether or not we wish to continue eating here.

But what if one of us didn't realize where the beef from our favorite fast food joint was coming from? How would that affect our decision to purchase a cheap hamburger? Would we even care to know? Should we be aware?

I won't argue morality, but as individuals, we each do need to take responsibility for ourselves and our actions through all avenues of life. Awareness certainly aids in making wiser and more informed personal decisions, as long as we learn how to respect other people's choices and free will in the process.

[Natsu]

Well... In theory, for common people, who sport moderately or not at all, the ideal amount of animal protein a day would be 50 grams. Which is the equivalent of a deck of cards. That would make 250 grams every five days, which is about half a pound. Now, if we only ate that amount of meat or fish, about a fifth of a pound daily, we could afford to pay for good quality meat. We'd be healthier. The animals would be better treated (if we forced producers to treat them properly, of course).

Problem is, we eat A LOT of animal protein, and I'm not counting egg and dairy. I mean only meat and fish. For people who do the minimum sport, that's too much, and it's most probably unhealthy.

Besides, I don't know if this also happens to you, meat is full of toxics. I understand that if you raise 200.000 chickens together, you have to fill them with antibiotics. What I don't understand is why you have to stuff the cows with oestrogens (problems for the gentlemen), and chicken and pigs with clembuterol. If you have a pound of chicken steaks, after you've cooked them you'll have less than half a pound chicken steaks and half a pound of water. You have been cheated (sold water for the price of meat only because it was inside the chicken), and besides, you are getting poisoned. The antibiotics may be necessary, but the artificial fatteners are not. I'd rather pay double for the meat and have the exact quantity without anabolics, than have it cheaper and polluted.

Point is, I still haven't found a realiable source of meat that will give the proper product. But then fish is poisoned, too, cows have strogen, and fruits and vegetable have plague-killers.

So... what can we do about this? I've tried to reduce my consumption of meat if only because I feel cheated whenever I finish cooking it. I think it's moral to try to eat less meat, not only because of the animals, but because of the human beings that are being cheated and intoxicated. But then I have to eat more vegetables and I'm not sure it that's much healthier, either...

So, difficult problem, there. However, I am glad that both sides are being respectful of others in the debate.

[SnitchyCat]

I love meat, and I also love animals.

I don't like the idea much that other organisms have to die to satiate my hunger, but at the same time its only natural. With the exception of primary producers, all organisms need to consume others for food. (Though sometimes only plants)

As far as meat, I feel its generally much easier to maintain a healthy diet by including meat as we are omnivores. It is possible to be vegan and all, but not worth the work to me, and I'd miss out on my favorite foods.

While anybody telling you that they are better than you is annoying, what is more annoying than vegetarian "supremecists" is when some fellow meat eater tries to pass himself off as superior by casting hunting game as being wrong. In my opinion, if you eat meat, then be quiet about hunting because as you enjoy your flesh some animal died to give it to you. And frankly, if you know much about the process for rasing farm animals, its a lot more inhumane than process for many of the animals. I've never personally been hunting, but I have friends who do.

Maybe some day in the future, we can use our star trek replicators to make meat from scratch without an animal. Until then, animals die to feed me because they are so tasty! End of story.

Oh, btw, I also hate it when "animal" people cringe and talk about how bad it is when the big cat eats the antelope. In my opinion, thats not sad at all. What's sad is when there is no antelope for the big cat to eat, or when the Cat doesn't get its meal. Its NATURAL for animals to eat each other! Think of how sad it would be if all that was on earth was plants and some giraffe or something. I for one, very much enjoy being amongst fine carnivores, such as dogs and cats. BTW, an obligate carnivore may not be able to survive off of a vegan diet like a human can.

It may be true that cattle raising is killing the rain forest. That doesn't mean the only solution is to avoid all meat from any source. There are pleanty of ways to get meat unintrusively from the environment, and in some cases beneficial to it by removing human-introduced predators.

Sorry for rambling on and on.

[ZoFlies]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

Keep in mind that I'm referring to the people themselves and not the eating style. The eating style is sound, just like any other of the hundred's of diets out there. They're all effective if applied correctly and consistently.

But the issue i have is this. Why do the practitioners of the vegetarian lifestyles espouse their beliefs and portray other dietary choices as somewhat less humane. They insinuate that for example they're more enlightened. That if you knew what they know, you too would switch. They like to speak of the disgust of meat and the killing other living organisms to eat them.

Look at it this way, does the size of an organism matter? Does an organism that's bigger experience more pain then the smaller one? Do they suffer differently? What about organisms that are based on a different biology from us? Can we quantify them as irrelevant?

Tress do not like to be eaten. Grass does not like to be eaten. Many species of plants excrete poison within minutes of being nibbled. I would think there is an action reaction going on there. The plants are defending the best way they know how.

Animals suffer when eaten. Kill them humanely and they suffer less.

Harvest crops for the sake of not killing any animals and all the fields flooded for farming and harvesting end up killing mice and every other creature that makes farm fields their home. Is the mouse less deserving of life as an animal because it's small and annoying?

What about meat eaters that eat wild fish?



My view is that all lifestyle choices are correct in moderation. You like vegan? go for it. You like meat? go for it, etc etc etc....


The ONLY reason people get in trouble with their diet habits is not due to the food choice. It's due to the quantity and portion size of ANY given food choice, with some exceptions. Vegetarians and vegans have a cool benefit that it's very hard and discouraging to overeat on such diets. So in effects they end up eating significantly less calories while getting more of certain nutrients. So getting leaner is a side effect along with better health.


Take a meat eater that follows good eating habits and calorie control and he/she will be just as healthy as the vegan. Eat whatever makes you look good and feel good.

Leave morality out of it.

A few other things to consider in a veg diet:
Energy and co2 emissions
over-fishing
large amounts of antibiotics in animals
the amount of grain that it takes to raise animals

Peace.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by gwl9dta4

It should be noted that there are plenty of meat plants that are top notch facilities with happy animals grazing freely for years before being killed off. Some, like the suppliers of fast food places can really be real life nightmares. But as a responsible omnivore, i eat only quality certified meats and i pay the price for them. Same with veggies, fruits, fish and ofcourse food supplements.

I feel like meat should not be cheap. Making it cheap is what that problem is, IMO.

For me that problem is another one. It is much wider than the killing of animals or the nightmare they are forced to live. I don't want to offend anyone though, just explain how I personally feel. I hope I can explain it although my english is not good enough for such ideas actually...

I grew up on a farm. It's an organic farm. The animals there eat only healthy stuff, they are outdoors all the time and "graze happily" on wide fields. Nobody beats them, they even get stroked and loved. My parents are really nice farmers. But what has upset me all of my life is that they don't consider animals as being as "important" as humans. I don't know how to explain this. Animals "count less". They are no persons. They have no rights at all. They are on earth to be eaten. Or to give us milk or eggs or some calves. We can do with them whatever we want, we own them. If an animal doesn't his job well, he gets killed. When he is too old, he just gets killed. They do not graze happily for years, btw. A calf lives a few months. A chicken about five weeks. A three year old cow is very old already. It's not only the slaughter. To produce milk, they just take the calf away from his mother when it's born. After a few months, guess what? he gets killed. A cow doesn't produce enough milk any more? killed. A chicken is a male, cannot give eggs? killed. Do you think a milk cow dies from senile decay? They don't keep any useless animals you know... organic or not, "human" or not. Animals have no own value, their life has no value. They count as much as they produce money for us.

What disturbs me most of all is this... well, disrespect. This way we consider them does upset me even more than eating them, keeping them in horrible conditions or taking away their babies to kill the baby and drink the mother's milk. It always reminds me of slavery. I'm sure there were people treating "their" slaves "humanely". Those lucky slaves suffered less than others. But ultimately they were still slaves, had no rights and no value except the value they provided to their master, right? Well that is exactly what upsets me about animals. As if we were some superior species, "better" or "worth more" than animals and thus have the right to treat them like objects, to abuse them systematically and to decide when they will die.

Maybe for you that is not a problem. Maybe you think we have this right indeed. That's ok. I hope you understand my point of view too though. I think we do not have this right, basically. We are conscious and more powerful than animals maybe, but that doesn't give us such a right. Only a great responsibility. For me it is really a big problem. Sometimes when I vibrate very low, I sporadically fall back into the habit of eating animal products. And every time I feel like cr*p for doing this

I'm curious about one thing. You seem to have a pretty precise idea about how healthy a vegan diet is and about the ethical issue too. Why are you annoyed about some people thinking they are "better" or "more enlightened" than you...? You must have some thoughts resonating with this in some way, or you wouldn't care about it at all. Let them think what they want... who cares!

Have a nice day all!

[Livgivare]

I don't know if people have thought about this, but a few people are rabbid vegans and say to the hunters that they are the worse people in the world. While the hunters who hunt seriously are the one that cares the most if their shot will do harm, and when it will don't shoot the animal. And some vegans like this feel that the small-sized farmer (who has only got a few animals for himself and the near neighbourhood) is also a hearless person towards the animal. And even this vegans who are rabbid like this, feels like the same-people in the north of Sweden and other original popularities of this world are also less feeling for their animals then they are (the vegans).

I am not saying that vegans are not allowed to feel for animals and be lovers of the animal life, what I don't like is the feeling that I get that they are the only ones who are entitled to be the lovers of animal life.

Sure we shall not buy more meat then we actually eat, we shall not throw away food too much. And we shall not just do like the EU have done either. Produce too much grain and fat and such just because we could and get such high production overload that we dumped the market all over the world when it comes to grains and milk and such. This made more harm on the world and the enviroment then anyone would have guessed.

Food place us under alot of issues and questions we need to answer all by ourselves. But I feel and fear that we have lost the original feeling towards animals those days. We have more and more people living in cities who are disney-fyed and feel like there is a Bambi in all the dear and a mother to Ferdinand in all cows. And this disney-fying I am most against, it makes no sence and puts lots of animal lovers out of the pictures. I believe that you have a choice on how you treat raindeer same-people of the north and the really careful hunter of moose.

I feel like we are spinning out of hand with much of animal production, I never eat at the Golden Arches place that I hate, and I feel like there is so much more to do to help people and animals out. Maybe I will start eating just wild animals in the future and start becoming a hunter myself due to the fact that I would like to be a better animal-lover myself.

Just a little thought from the north.

I don't have anything against those who eat just vegan food and are happy about it, and understand my ideas and feel that there is at least a few 50% truths in it.

Love Leelene

[beautyscientist]

I think I am probably on the same wavelength as the OP, and I can't see myself giving up meat any time soon if ever. But I dont' find my personal experience of vegans matches up with his. I know a couple of vegetarians and vegans. They don't push their beliefs - in fact I don't know what their motivations are. But I do find that thier obvious enjoyment of life is the strongest argument I have come across for giving their diet a try.

[HumbleDee]

Vegans doesn't eat meat because its cruelty to animals. But what about cruelty to plants. There are studies that say plants can feel pain too.

Here a link to an article about plants feel the pain.

If Vegetarians trade their vegetables with mud pies, I suppose they can stand tall on their moral pedestal.

[NotesMaeve]

Originally Posted by HumbleDee

Vegans doesn't eat meat because its cruelty to animals. But what about cruelty to plants. There are studies that say plants can feel pain too.

Here a link to an article about plants feel the pain.

If Vegetarians trade their vegetables with mud pies, I suppose they can stand tall on their moral pedestal.

There are all sorts of reasons to be veg*n outside of inflicting pain. Plant life is not sentient or emotionally reactive. Plant farming is less destructive to the ecosystem.

If this doesn't convince you the slaughterhouse industry is evil, then I don't know what to tell you. Are individuals who eat meat evil? No. I don't even think eating meat is unnatural, but feeding pigs their own ♥♥♥♥♥, scalding semi-conscious animals to death? That's horrible. Is that me putting myself on a pedestal to say those ideas make me want to vomit?

I'm sorry, but I'm just tired of people getting "coy" with the, "Well, you're inflicting pain on plants! Heeheehee!" Cutting a plant off at the root or picking a piece of fruit isn't comparable to the slaughterhouse industry.

[Cassio]

Originally Posted by HumbleDee

Vegans doesn't eat meat because its cruelty to animals. But what about cruelty to plants. There are studies that say plants can feel pain too.

Here a link to an article about plants feel the pain.

If Vegetarians trade their vegetables with mud pies, I suppose they can stand tall on their moral pedestal.

If you are so concerned about the well being of plants, you should not eat meat, cos the cows need to eat A LOT of plants so you can eat them.

[Minsc]

Originally Posted by HumbleDee

Here a link to an article about plants feel the pain.

I think that that site is a joke...
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