Death by Veganism

[Nikos Sokin]

Death by Veganism - New York Times

[Sam988]

Now this post could be entitled: A good reason NOT to go vegan

[Amadeus]

The writer of this article didn't get some of her facts straight. For one, your baby will get all the nutrients needed during pregnancy regardless of what the mother is eating. A baby is just as nourished from a third world country inside the womb as a mother from a developed country. If the baby has to extract calcium from the mother's bones it will.

You can get plenty of vitamin D from direct sunlight contact everyday for about 10 minutes.

If the mother is breastfeeding even if she is vegan the baby will get all the nutrients it needs from the milk.

[Matthew Shea]

Amadeus, I'm not sure where you're getting that information from, but if a mother is deficient in some aspect of her diet, the baby will be deficient, too. If the mother lacks vitamin B, for instance, it's not going to magically come out of nowhere. A pregnant or nursing mother needs to be properly nourished, no ifs ands or buts. I'm not passing judgement on vegan diets, but things like vitamin deficiencies in women are known to cause birth defects.

In the case of this starving baby, I don't care what type of diet you're on, if your baby doesn't start gaining weight within a few days after birth, YOU GET HELP! This is sheer stupidity and neglect on the part of the parents. May God have mercy on them, because I'm sure not inclined to.

The biggest problem here is priorities, the way I see it. Sure, veganism is a noble choice that most people are probably incabable of, but what means more, your convictions that veganism is the only proper diet choice or the life of your child? I would expect any sensible person to choose the latter at the expense of the former, if only temporarily for the child's sake.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

While I completely agree that your child's life is of first and foremost importance, the claims made by the author of the Times article don't seem to hold true for the many vegan mothers who maintain the diet throughout pregnancy and breastfeeding and produce completely healthy, vibrant children.

Sure, if you feed a baby only soymilk and juice, they will die. But so would they if they were fed cow's milk and juice. The argument here should be against ignorance, not veganism. If anything, we need education.

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

he claims made by the author of the Times Tarticle don't seem to hold true for the many vegan mothers who maintain the diet throughout pregnancy and breastfeeding and produce completely healthy, vibrant children.

Sure, if you feed a baby only soymilk and juice, they will die. But so would they if they were fed cow's milk and juice. The argument here should be against ignorance, not veganism. If anything, we need education.

Agreed. Education is what is lacking. I wouldn't feed my kid meat and stuff, but i do make sure i get what i need and if i had kids, i would do the same for them.

I also know a few vegan parents with vegan children and they are all doing just great.

Well said aspiring to clarity!

Adrienne

[bdp]

I registered just to write this reply! It's sad that people spread myths (and outright lies) like the author of that Times article.

"There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run."

The author needs to educate herself: 3 of the 4 longest-living and healthiest cultures in the world are vegan! (correction: very close to veg*n). The Abkhasians, the Hunzans, and the Vilcabambans (the other culture is Okinawa, which consumes fish) (correction: they all consume some milk and/or small amounts of other animal products). Until fast food recently took over their cultures, they did not know cancer, diabetes, stroke, overweight, heart disease, osteoporosis, autoimmune disease, or macular degeneration. They regularly live into their late 90s and beyond, in near-perfect health, without doctors or medicine. For more information, read "Healthy at 100" by John Robbins.

The comments about protein and calcium are equally misinformed, and are the result of the meat and dairy industries' excellent marketing. Of course we need protein and calcium, but they are both found in plants. Green leafy vegetables have much more protein and calcium per calorie than any animal food.

The DHA comment is ridiculous. The author obviously has an agenda here, because:
1) she talks about the need to eat fish, but doesn't mention that the government has advised pregnant and nursing mothers to avoid fish because of the mercury content
2) she conveniently doesn't mention that the body make can make its own DHA out of the oil from plants like nuts, seeds, and avocados. If a vegan mother's breast milk is DHA-deficient, she needs to eat the right plants, not mercury-contaminated fish.

The author's agenda is obvious. She attacks vegan parents for malnourishing their children, but ignores the tens of millions of parents that feed their overweight and obese children nothing but ice cream, pizza and hamburgers so they develop diabetes and heart disease before they graduate from high school.

You can be an unhealthy vegan, or a healthy meat eater. The agenda is really getting old.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Adrienne

Well said aspiring to clarity!

Thanks, Adrienne.

If you look at the numbers of deaths in vegan babies compared to the number of healthy vegan babies I think you would see this kind of awful scenario is the exception rather than the rule. There are plenty of omni babies who die every day as well, sometimes because of poor nutrition. I think it would serve us well to be a little less alarmist about the situation and focus on educating as many mothers as we can on caring for their newborns.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by bdp

I registered just to write this reply! It's sad that people spread myths (and outright lies) like the author of that Times article.

"There are no vegan societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run."

The author apparently doesn't know that 3 of the 4 longest-living and healthiest cultures in the world are vegan: the Abkhasians, the Hunzans, and the Vilcabambans (the other culture is Okinawa, which consumes fish). Until fast food recently took over their cultures, they did not know cancer, diabetes, stroke, overweight, heart disease, osteoporosis, autoimmune disease, or macular degeneration. They regularly live into their late 90s and beyond, in near-perfect health, without doctors or medicine.

For more information, read "Healthy at 100" by John Robbins.

Do not believe the myths out there regarding veganism and vegetarianism.

The number one reason why veganism can extend lifespan is because of the lower-than-meat eaters caloric intake. If one really wants to extend his lifespan, veganism diet isnt the most appropriate, but Calorie Restricion diet is.

[joey m]

I agree with all that the author of this article is misinformed. I am a proud parent of a 2 year old vegan boy who is a shining example of health -- he has benefited greatly from his healthy diet as is apparent by his strong immune system. He rarely gets the colds that his playmates are getting.

Obviously, breast milk is the ideal food for the first six months, but in lieu of that, formula is the only other food to be given.

The health of the mother is indeed important for the beneficial qualities of the breast milk. Things to pay particular attention to if vegan are B-12 levels, Vitamin D levels and DHA levels in the mother. If these are all good, then the breast milk will have a nice nutritional profile. Additionally, the more fruits and vegetables the mother eats, the higher the concentration of beneficial phytonutrients there will be in the milk as well. I believe it is also important for the mother to consume a healthy quantity of good fats in the form of avocado, and raw nuts and seeds (avoiding peanuts). This will ensure a healthy content of beneficial fats in the breast milk.

Best,
Joey

[bdp]

Sam988, you are right: calorie restriction is definitely a factor. Here are some more reasons why vegetarians/vegans live longer:

About 1/3 of all deaths in the US are from heart disease. We know that animal products are by far the major cause of heart disease, so being a vegan (and avoiding trans fat) lowers the probability of heart attack to about zero.

Another 1/3 of US deaths are from cancer. Cancer rates have been shown to be near zero in vegan (or near-vegan) cultures (sources: "The China Study," "Healthy at 100"). They eat vegetables, fruit, beans, nuts, seeds and whole grains instead of animal products.

Now, vegetables, fruit, beans, nuts and seeds are low-calorie and nutrient-dense, which brings us back to calorie restriction. Calorie restriction dramatically extends life span only if you get enough nutrients. Animal products have an extremely low nutrient-to-calorie ratio, so it's nearly impossible to get enough nutrients from them without getting too many calories.

This is why Americans are so fat and disease-ridden. We only need around 1500-1800 calories a day, and most of those calories need to come from nutrient-dense foods. Then you can eat all you want and not get too many calories, effortlessly staying lean and energetic throughout your life.

The concept of nutrient density, and much more, can be found in the book "Eat To Live" by Joel Fuhrman. (I am not affiliated with this author or book).

[BILLYBOB]

I thought the article made a good point. To expound: There are many people in the US who have been bullied/converted to Veganism by militant Vegans. They've been told eating anything with eyes or a mother is morally corrupt, bad for Mother Earth, and can increase the chance of pre-mature death due to Cancer, Heart Disease, etc... These theories are presented as absolute truth...to disagree is morally reprehensible.
Need proof? Check out the reactions in this forum...you'd think someone walked into a Christian Church and denied the Resurrection.
The problem this article describes is what happens when those with limited knowledge are "saved" and converted to be herbavores WITHOUT THE PROPER TRAINING OR KNOWLEDGE. Agree or not, Veganism requires special skills and knowledge...especially if you're pregnant or raising little ones. The people described in this article obviously did not have that training. That is a fact.
Don't shoot the messenger...instead of putting time, money, and enrgy into converting carnivores, why don't you make sure the people who WANT TO BE VEGANS have sufficient knowledge.
If your way of living is indeed correct, you hav nothing to fear. Evolution will naturally select only those who are the healthies for survival. Unfortunatly for you, when I take an occasional trip to the local Natural Foods Co-Op, (a magnet for Vegan types), I generally see the most unhealthy looking people living in the US.
To conclude: you have every right to eat what you want to eat...but PLEASE quit ramming it down everyone elses's throat, quit being so defensive, and clean up your own house...i.e. educate your own about the proper care of Vegan babies.

[bdp]

BILLYBOB, who are you replying to? I don't see anything in this thread that might provoke such a response.

At any rate, this thread is obviously a discussion about an article regarding a vegan diet-style. Did you expect us to discuss anything else? At any rate, I agree that vegans need to understand nutrition well or they could do more harm than good. Just cutting out animal products and replacing them with tofu is not necessarily an improvement, depending on what else you eat.

Your comment about the vegans at the natural food co-op is irrelevant. Vegans can be unhealthy, and meat-eaters can be healthy. Maybe those vegans you see are unhealthy, I don't know. If they are, it's probably because they don't eat enough vegetables and fruit--not because they don't eat meat. However, I suspect that some of them look unhealthy to you because they are very lean. Americans aren't used to seeing really lean people. Many people who are lean and non-muscular are considered unhealthy and underweight, when they are actually in outstanding health. And it is a statistical fact that the leanest people (and animals) live the longest.

As you say, don't shoot the messenger: the longest-living and healthiest cultures are vegetarian or vegan. That is just a simple fact, well-documented in the scientific and medical literature.

[Dan.Linehan]

You guys crack me up. This case has nothing to do with veganism. I think the author knew that as well, even the prosecution in the case said that it wasn't about veganism:

Prosecutors said the couple intentionally neglected their child and refused to take him to the doctor even as the baby's body wasted away.

"No matter how many times they want to say, 'We're vegans, we're vegetarians,' that's not the issue in this case," said prosecutor Chuck Boring. "The child died because he was not fed. Period."

Reference Vegans Sentenced for Starving Their Baby (Associated Press)

This case doesn't have anything to do with veganism, except for the plaintiffs using it as a (piss poor) excuse.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by joey m

I am a proud parent of a 2 year old vegan boy who is a shining example of health -- he has benefited greatly from his healthy diet as is apparent by his strong immune system. He rarely gets the colds that his playmates are getting.

Awesome job, Joey, that's great.

[bdp]

Yes, as Dan.Linehan mentioned, the case itself isn't about veganism.

Anyway, what do you guys think about the last paragraph of the article?

An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the precious things they need to live and grow.

Are babies really built from fish oil? Does anybody else think it's strange to think that humans can't survive without fish?

[Amadeus]

Dan Linham, I'm glad your child is healthy. However I have noticed with a lot of vegan kids you can't tell whether they are male or female. Very strange.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Well, I don't think joey m's baby is built from fish oil (please correct me if I am wrong joey). Neither are Erin and Steve's children as far as I know. I guess they aren't as healthy as their parents and doctors would believe. joey, Pavlinas...run out and get some fish oil, quick, before it's too late!

And Amadeus, that's a trait shared by lots of babies (though perhaps not Dan's since I don't think he mentioned having one). Without "girl" clothes or "boy" clothes one usually can't tell right away. It has nothing to do with their diet. Sheesh, now people are really digging deep for this stuff...

And I am sure the author meant to talk about DHA and EFA which can be obtained through fish/oil, but why get it from mercury polluted fish? This was probably just an oversight...

[joey m]

Yeah, my little one definitely looks like a boy -- but all the kids in his playgroups (vegan and nonvegan) look their gender -- of course these guys are 2 -- not newborns.

Dan and Aspiring to Clarity -- Thanks! I've enjoyed your posts! And, our little one gets a little bit of algae derived DHA every morning (so I guess he is built from algae, not fish).

Best,
Joey

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

True, joey. That usually happens with infants, not 2 year olds. I am not sure what the age of the children Amadeus was referring to is.

Sounds like your family is doing really well as vegan joey. A great example. Thanks for sharing.

[Iksander]

Body type is important to remember. People that have an ancestry rooted in primarily cold and barren environments will be more inclined to process meats and fats better than any other food. Whereas those that evolved in more temperate zones may have an affinity for some meat with an emphasis on vegetable consumption. The same can be said for coastal environments where sea food may be the primary food source.

I have Teutonic blood and tend towards meals with alot of meat and some vegetables (like a small salad with steak). Carbohydrates I consume as a 'snack' food for lunches (bread and cheese, grape nuts, etc...) because my ancestors most likely only ate 'lunch' in that fashion.

If you feel great and have an entirely vegan diet, then there is certainly nothing wrong with that; but if you don't feel great (and don't look that great) it might be time to re-evaluate your diet.

I knew a fellow a while ago that had been a Vegan for three years and he constantly looked anorexic, his skin was always pale, and he said his energy was always really wacky. I suggested to try some protein in the diet for one week, slowly working up portions; and after that one week he said it was the trick, he felt great, and he 'looked' great too.


Like someone said, if it don't look right then somethin aint right; and if it don't feel right then somethin aint right

[Dan.Linehan]

Soy Protein Isolate 4 LB - 30-066-903

[escapee]

As you say, don't shoot the messenger: the longest-living and healthiest cultures are vegetarian or vegan. That is just a simple fact, well-documented in the scientific and medical literature.

If i'm not mistaken, Okinawans remain the longest living culture in the world, and they are not vegans/vegetarian.

How To Live As Long As Possible

Clearly, we can enjoy long, healthy, and productive lives following our own unique diets and lifestyles. However, in considering all that we know about long-lived populations, we can say that the following traits are common to almost all of these groups:

They eat plenty of vegetables, fruits, and whole grains.
They eat small amounts of clean animal foods such as fish, eggs, or dairy.
They eat foods that are rich in omega-3 fatty acids.
They are physically active throughout the day.
They give their bodies regular sleep and rest.
They spend a lot of their time outdoors in the presence of fresh air and natural sunlight.
They do not smoke.
They tend to put family first and have unconditional respect for their elders.
They are genuinely close to their family members and/or a group of friends - the kind of closeness that goes way beyond superficial schmoozing.
They have a sense of purpose, a strong reason to get up each day and make it a good one.

The Okinawa Centenarian Study : The Okinawa Program

the number of centenarians per hundred thousand is six times that of the United States. Most important, Okinawans have the world's longest disability-free life expectancy.

Sardinians in Italy

Traditional diet: homegrown fruits and vegetables like zucchini, eggplant, tomatoes, and fava beans, milk and pecorino cheese made with milk from their own grass-fed sheep, wine that they make from locally grown Cannonau grapes, and paper-thin flat bread called "carta da musica."

Other observations: most older Sardinians are known to do physical work all day long in their homes or on their land. It is not uncommon for both men and women to remain physically active into their 8th and 9th decades.

Balance is the key .

[bdp]

(edit: I corrected my above comments, which weren't accurate)

escapee, I think you missed my first comment above:

The author needs to educate herself: 3 of the 4 longest-living and healthiest cultures in the world are vegan! (edit: vegan or very close to vegan). The Abkhasians, the Hunzans, and the Vilcabambans (the other culture is Okinawa, which consumes fish).

Anyway, I do agree that balance is the key. Since the only natural sources of B12 are animal products, humans are obviously designed to consume at least a small amount of some animal product for optimal health. I have read that B12 stays in the body quite a while, so not too much is required (perhaps a serving or two per month, or a supplement). As far as I have read, there is no other nutrient or vitamin that we can't get by eating plants (or from the sun, in the case of Vitamin D).

Obviously, if the only source of a vitamin or nutrient is an animal, then we're not designed to be 100% vegan for our entire lives.

[escapee]

the Hunzans are not vegan. They consume goat milk which has higher sat fat than cow milk. They are lacto-vegetarian at best.

As for Abkhasians, they do eat a little meat maybe once or twice a week(chicken, beef, lamb, and Juvenile goat ) . However, they do consume a considerable amount of dairy.

Vilcabambans consume milk and eggs. They cook most of their food.

It's abit hard for me to swallow when you made the following statement. No offense.

the longest-living and healthiest cultures are vegetarian or vegan.

[bdp]

escapee, it has been a while since I read "Healthy at 100," so I think you are right about those cultures. I'll correct my comments.

At any rate, the healthiest and longest living cultures are very close to veg*n. It is clear that a balance (or proper supplementation) is necessary for optimal health and longevity.

[shananigans]

I’ve read a lot about this article and many responses (this one blog has 310 comments last I checked veganimae | MetaFilter). I think it can be agreed that the title of this op-ed was unnecessarily and intentionally inflammatory and misguided. This may have something to do with the fact that the author, Nina Planck, has no formal training in nutrition and has financial stakes in traditional farmers markets (which she owns and runs in London and DC) that promote the sale of direct farmer-to-consumer dairy, eggs and meat in addition to vegetables. While I admire her promotion of consuming locally produced food, I believe she would be a little more than biased in promoting the consumption of the animal products that make up a large part of her market businesses.

Of course special care must be taken to consume a proper balanced diet during pregnancy, nursing and childhood to ensure a child’s healthy development. This is true of vegan and omnivorous children. The culprit in this case was neglect and ignorance, not the vegan lifestyle.

Regarding vitamin B12, this can be found in a number of vegan friendly sources. In fact it’s in certain bacteria in the soil that vegetables are grown in. If we didn’t wash our vegetables so well (which if they’ve been sprayed with pesticides I wouldn’t recommend) we might not need to get this important nutrient anywhere else in our diets. Since I do tend to wash my veggies thoroughly and prefer not to eat dirt , I get my B vitamins from fortified nutritional yeast. You can also get it in sea vegetables, such as nori, or marmite (vegemite in Australia).

[escapee]

At any rate, the healthiest and longest living cultures are very close to veg*n. It is clear that a balance (or proper supplementation) is necessary for optimal health and longevity.

At the end of the day it's about balance of input and output (assuming that all essential nutrients, fats are met from both plant and animal food) . If you put a corporate warrior who sit their arse all day in the office on okinawan food pyramid ( with strong emphasis on starchy complex carbohydrate ) he/she may not enjoy the good health associated with Okinawan who work their butt all day on the field. Why? Because there is a good chance that he/she may get obese due to excess energy in the system. Diabetes and heart disease does not favor either a fat vegan or a fat omnivore.

ImO, the flexibility of Udo's 3 food pyramids suit us better .
Udo's Choice™ FOOD PYRAMID for Healthy People!

[ivylamp]

Back in the 1975 or 76, there was an article printed about the hazards of a strict vegetarian diet. It talked about sick and dying hippy moms and babies in the San Francisco area. Lack of vitamin B12 was sited, but it went on to talk about how misinformed these young people were to follow such an "extreme" diet. I can't remember the details of the article anymore (if anyone knows where to find it, please post) but I believe it centered around 2 babies and their moms. The article was quoted and referred to for years after it broke. It was proof that a strict vegetarian diet was not sound. I was a strict vegetarian at that time and it struck terror into my soul. I imagined my bones crumbling. I imagined that my insides were turning to goo in some imperceptable but important way. It was this kind of terror that caused me to try to incorporate eggs and/or fish into my diet at different times in my life. It's no longer an issue for me personally. I am a long time vegetarian (since 1969) and can no longer digest animal products. I'm not going to push my diet and say that I'm right just because I'm not dead yet. I'm open to the idea that different people may have different nutritional needs, but I'm flabbergasted and amused that there is even still a debate about weither it's "OK" to follow a strict vegetarian diet!

[escapee]

I followed a strict vegetarian diet for 3 months last year and went into some trouble. My family members who followed me also got into trouble (muscle twicthing, fatique, menstrual cycle disturbance and etc ). The diet seems to work well for Steve's family though. They must have a "well planned" vegetarian diet that covers all the essential nutrients (2 essential fats, vitamins, minerals and amino acids) . But you never know what they eat in reality. I would personally never trust anyone who say that they are extremely healhty and fit with a pure vegan diet for XX years as my experience with the diet wasnt that encouraging. Even the vegetarian health gurus recognize the importance of animal food .