Veganism and killing

[Joyous]

I see some related topics, but i think this needs a new topic to be started.

It's a fact that to eat non-vegitarian, you have to kill an animal. So whenever i eat non-veg, i get a feeling that i do some injustice to the animal. So recently i quit non-veg. But i like non-veg and i m not concerned about health benefit or anything else, the only concern for me is it involves a killing.

But now i am getting a feeling that when i eat veg, am i not harming plants or trees? While producing rice, the whole plant is cut. And we kill pests.

What you guys think?

[Akashic_Librarian]

I think you have to look deep inside and trust your instinct.

Personally I try to be grateful for all the plants that gave their life-force to me, I don't always consciously think it. But I do try. I abhor the slaughter of animals. So I certainly don't eat meat! I am also thinknig of becoming Vegan. But I am still aware that we must kill something to get our food. Its just a fact (Although a subjective one)

[escapee]

To me , plants are like the enlightened sages of the earth , there show no sign of negativity ,no struggle, no pain , no suffer even with the harshest punishment exerted by the nature , not to even mention human activities . Plants are always in the state of peace regardless of any circumstance .

There may fall for us (food) in the most peaceful way but it's only a matter of time before there re-grow again effortless through the power of nature.

Plants are there to sustain every conscious living being as long as we(especially the human) utilize them with great responsibility.

41. More than 90% of all agricultural land in Britain is used to feed animals.

17. The amount of veg protein fed to the US beef herd would feed almost the entire populations of India and China - two billion people.

44 reasons to be vegan

[Joyous]

Not arguing, but to continue discussion,

Sikhism argues that the soul can possibly undergo 84 million incarnations as various forms of life before ultimately becoming human. These life forms could be a rock, vegetation or animal. Sikhism does not see a difference between mineral, vegetation and animal. The only distinction made is that between these (mineral, vegetation and animal), and human.

Sikh Guru Nanak said it was a pointless or fools argument to debate the merits of either not eating or eating meat in the context of religion

[escapee]

When i decided to go vegan , i did so without the context of religion and i'm agnosticst .

Is Sikh Guru Nanak a human , animal or plants ?

if he is a cow waiting to be slaughtered mechanically, then obviously ......

[Minsc]

Well:

If an animal were going to eat two animals before it died and you killed it and ate it, there would be one more animal than otherwise. Although I don't think the animals on farms are fed by some other ones grown there since that would be expensive.

You don't kill animals by eating meat since they're dead already.

If there was no demand for meat then they would've never been born(which is worse than death in my opinion).

[Joyous]

Originally Posted by escapee

When i decided to go vegan , i did so without the context of religion and i'm agnosticst .

Is Sikh Guru Nanak a human , animal or plants ?

if he is a cow waiting to be slaughtered mechanically, then obviously ......

What is he is a Plant? That's what the discussion all about.

[escapee]

If there was no demand for meat then they would've never been born(which is worse than death in my opinion).

Then we should start eating human/baby meat since human meat has exactly the same type of protein as human . or Perhaps , we should wait for a human devouring alien species to descend from the outer space and start hanging us upside down, slit our throat and send us to meat grinder . By adding some MSG & black pepper sauce , our meat juice should taste very delicious to the human eating Alien ..

Finally , it's yours to decide which diet to choose to maintain a good health and at the same time , contributing to the reversal of ecological damage that we have accumulated for decades.

[escapee]

Oh What if he a plant ? depending on what type of fruit or vegetable, if you pick an apple from the tree , the tree will scream like those cow, pig,chicken or monkey( exclusively in Asia ) in the butcher house waiting fearfully to be slaughtered, there will even shake violently with lots of pain and fear so the best way to stop this is to slam them against the wall or floor so that you could kill them instantly and shut their mouth.

You can check out this common violent reaction similar to the apple tree .

[escapee]

More violent reaction and pain (Highly recommended by the animals in pain ) .

[julien]

Animals are bound to die anyhow: if they stop dieing because their predators don't eat them anymore, then they'll die because of overpopulation. The Lotka-Volterra equations modelize this phenomenon very well.

[escapee]

But we(human) are gifted with the best intelligence in the earth and a highly "conscious mind" , we dont have to be those blood thirsty predators to live a healthy, peaceful & ecological friendly life, do we ?

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Minsc

Well:

If an animal were going to eat two animals before it died and you killed it and ate it, there would be one more animal than otherwise. Although I don't think the animals on farms are fed by some other ones grown there since that would be expensive.

You don't kill animals by eating meat since they're dead already.

If there was no demand for meat then they would've never been born(which is worse than death in my opinion).

I think that is a ridiculous thing to say.

On your reasoning then , we should create something so we can first exploit it, then imprison it, then be cruel and inflict pain on it, then kill it.

Nice reasoning.

[DKSprocket]

I recently switched from a non-veg diet to an almost exclusive veg diet (mostly raw vegan in fact), but my motivation was based purely on nutritional information on how the food affects my body (health, vitality, mental spiritual etc).

I consider the fact that I am no longer supporting cruel animal conditions a definate plus - this was something I did have an a minor issue with earlier (but as most meat-eaters I found it easy to supress it). But again it was not a deciding factor in switching diet.

I agree with the Sikh position that its pretty pointless to argue the morality on whether to not to eat meat at all. I think most of us can agree that animal cruelty is a bad thing, but that's not to say that you necesarily should stay away from ALL meat. And I belive that if you open up that discussion it leads to all sorts of philosophical dead-ends:

If eating meat is wrong does that mean carnivor animals are wrong? (And would we then be justified to kill those animals to save their prey from "cruelty")

Is it ok to eat wild game (or free ranging fish) if we dont overkill and make the killing as quick and painless as possible?

If a farmer breeds and brings up a domesticated animal, treat it well, then kills it in a quick and painless way is the animal then "better off" than if it had never been born at all? (since without the farmer the animal wouldn't have been born in the first place)

If we assume reincarnation then maybe the cow/pig/chicken in the supermarket actually chose the life on the farm. Maybe its part of a life lesson it needs to go through before it can incarnate in a more sophisticated life. (this is a dangerous argument since it could potentially be misused to explain away all kinds of cruelty)

Of course none of the above detracts from the fact that animal cruelty is wrong and that there are many cases where there's no doubt that the animal is suffering.

Rasmus

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by DKSprocket

If eating meat is wrong does that mean carnivor animals are wrong? (And would we then be justified to kill those animals to save their prey from "cruelty")



Rasmus

Erm, you will probably find that the wild carnivorous animals you are referring to operate in an environment which does not have legislative laws nor intelligent minds able to gather and harvest resources to such an extent that civilisations as humans know can flourish.

So for an Eagle to survive for example, it has to hunt.

For us to survive we dont have to eat meat at all.

[Gautam]

Originally Posted by escapee

if he is a cow waiting to be slaughtered mechanically, then obviously ......

Now let's not speak badly of another's religion even though we may not follow one.

Yes there is a certain differnce between eating plants and animals for food. In one of steve's articles he compares the anatomies of Carnivores, Herbivoers and Omnivores. The human body according to that accurately put comaprision is undoubtedly 'Herbivorous'. It is one of the main reasons why humans cannot digest complex raw meat as compared to a common carnivore.

And plants are the wonderful beings, that spring up from the earth and can be replenished. From the seed to the plant and plant to fruit and fruit to seed and back to plant again. Now can someone do the same with an animal? Can you eat an animal and make another animal from its liver or kidney?

I don't think so tim! (Yes! Al's famous Home Improvement line)

[escapee]

We are not carnivours , we are intelligent and highly conscious living being . But it seems that we are doing significantly worse than those carnivours by polluting the earth , slaugthering animals under the most horrendous way , plundering resources and even killing ourselves with the most destructive weapon..

We can definitely do better than this , just use the law of attraction
The universe will show us all the err the best vegan/vegetarian path to live the most peaceful , ecological friendly, harmonious human life on earth ( shameless vege promotion hehe )

[escapee]

Originally Posted by Gautam

Now let's not speak badly of another's religion even though we may not follow one.

I apologize if "Sikh Guru Nanak" is a spiritual being worshipped by many in India .

[Mnemosyne]

As a kid I thought it ridiculous to be vegetarian, I remember asking (flippantly) about plants - why do people only care about animals, why don't they care about killing/eating plants!?

[Brendon Colby]

When I went on a vegan trial, I discovered a new thing called "fruitarianism" - people who eat just fruits and such that fall from plants "willingly." I really had to think about this. Plants are alive like animals, are they not? When we harvest plants we kill them do we not? I think this is a valid contemplation, esp. when one of the main reasons many people seem to go vegan is to avoid killing their "friends."

Maybe all we can do is reduce suffering as much as possible. It may not make sense to try to not kill anything i.e. just taking what's openly given like fruit and some nuts, because harvesting carrots is killing carrots (and bugs). I think we can do much, much better than factory farming without becoming malnourished.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by Brendon Colby

When I went on a vegan trial, I discovered a new thing called "fruitarianism" - people who eat just fruits and such that fall from plants "willingly."

That's really interesting. My opinion is that by simply standing there and breathing you're destroying some kind of life form.

If you're going to be vegan, it only makes sense to me if you're doing it for health reasons.

If you're vegan because you're concerned about killing animals, then should you not also be concerned about the plant life you kill? And where do you draw the line? What about the animals that were inadvertantly killed because they don't have anywhere to live or anything to eat because their natural habitat has been paved over for that new shopping center?

Don't mean to start arguments, it's just my opinion. And I'm often wrong.

[TechnoGuyRob]

You people worry too much.

Seriously, enjoy a steak. Personally, I'm vegetarian, but eating meat harms no one. Not the animal, or yourself (the animal's dead already).

Besides, does it really matter how we produce our food and what we consume today? Soon we'll be able to grow our own meat, anyways.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob

You people worry too much.

Seriously, enjoy a steak. Personally, I'm vegetarian, but eating meat harms no one. Not the animal, or yourself (the animal's dead already).

Besides, does it really matter how we produce our food and what we consume today? Soon we'll be able to grow our own meat, anyways.

"But eating meat harms no one"....yeah right.

It doesnt harm the animal? It doesnt harm the environment? Perhaps you might educate yourself before you next come out with such gems of wisdom.

"The animals already dead" Thjis is one of the most un-thought out responses to an important ethical debate I often come across.

So does that mean that, on your reasoning, if I kill you, I can help myself to your estate...I mean whats the problem, youre already dead, you wont know about it. Does that mean that I can kill you, because at the point you actually die, you wont know your dead:- AS YOU ARE DEAD?

Or perhaps do you want to admit that the important thing is what happens is when you are alive? Can you feel pain? Do you want to be confined? Do you want to be a commodity? Do you want to live in attrocious conditions which only concerns itself on the welfare of its profits, not your being?

I am always astounded at how 'blooded' and 'uncaring' the human person can be.

[elainevdw]

There's a book -- the name of which I can't remember -- that argues that vegetarians kill more animals that meat-eaters do, simply because mass farming practices anhillilate hundreds of thousands of rodents and birds that live in the fields. So if you're shopping at Whole Foods worrying about killing animals, you really haven't thought things through. The "best practice," I suppose, would be to independently raise all of your food and live off the land, but we can't all be Grizzly Adams.

I watched an Anthony Bourdain show where he goes to Canada and is invited to an Inuit home to hunt, shoot, and eat a seal. The whole extended family sat there on their modern kitchen floor, which was covered in a tarp, digging into raw seal flesh that they just pulled off the ice. Somehow, that seems to be a more honest way of eating than what we are accustomed to.

There aren't many perfect solutions in an imperfect world, and zealously sticking to the letter of logical law causes more harm than compassion.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

There's a book -- the name of which I can't remember -- that argues that vegetarians kill more animals that meat-eaters do, simply because mass farming practices anhillilate hundreds of thousands of rodents and birds that live in the fields. So if you're shopping at Whole Foods worrying about killing animals, you really haven't thought things through. The "best practice," I suppose, would be to independently raise all of your food and live off the land, but we can't all be Grizzly Adams.

I watched an Anthony Bourdain show where he goes to Canada and is invited to an Inuit home to hunt, shoot, and eat a seal. The whole extended family sat there on their modern kitchen floor, which was covered in a tarp, digging into raw seal flesh that they just pulled off the ice. Somehow, that seems to be a more honest way of eating than what we are accustomed to.

There aren't many perfect solutions in an imperfect world, and zealously sticking to the letter of logical law causes more harm than compassion.

I think you will probably find that the book was sponsored by some Meat Industry money, they usually are. if not, no matter. The idea is flawed.

The farming techinques that are used to harvest crops are just that. They are not premeditated killing strategim. Most wildlife flee from machinery and learn to evolve year on year to avoid unsafe survival methods.

On the other hand, for a meat eater to say that a vegan kills more animals than thereself, is deluded at best, desperate more than likely.

I suggest that omnivores actually sit down and read both sides of the philosophical debates about vegetarianism. In that way you will have access to a complete generation of mature arguments from esteemed thinkers who argue intelligently from their position, from both camps.

I'm afraid.."the animal is dead already, so we can eat it" and " vegans kill more animals than meat eaters" is nothing more than kindergarten thinking.

[Mnemosyne]

Originally Posted by elainevdw

Somehow, that seems to be a more honest way of eating than what we are accustomed to.

There aren't many perfect solutions in an imperfect world, and zealously sticking to the letter of logical law causes more harm than compassion.

I couldn't agree more elainevdw! I honestly think moderation and compassion are key.

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I think you will probably find that the book was sponsored by some Meat Industry money, they usually are. if not, no matter. The idea is flawed.

I wish I rememberd the name of the book -- it was a guy who was against the meat industry and against the organic food industry, for what I could tell!

And as far as "kindergarten thinking," I found the argument interesting because it illustrates severeal human tendencies: one, to ignore things we don't want to think about; and two, to create elaborate justifications.

I maintain that, while it's an interesting philosophical exercise to argue all the surface discrepencies in various beliefs, there's a point where you need to throw out the microscope and take a balanced, and wholistic view. Or else it will be impossible to maintain a sense of compassion -- towards yourself for not being able to follow all of these rules, towards others for for not being willing to consider the same view, to the world that you're ignoring because your too busy worrying about whether your every action is right or wrong.

Originally Posted by Mneumosyn

If you're going to be vegan, it only makes sense to me if you're doing it for health reasons.

If you're vegan because you're concerned about killing animals, then should you not also be concerned about the plant life you kill? And where do you draw the line? What about the animals that were inadvertantly killed because they don't have anywhere to live or anything to eat because their natural habitat has been paved over for that new shopping center?

Has anybody talked about pain vs. death in this topic yet? What a lot of Americans vegetarians have against eating meat is that the animals are not only slaughtered inhumanely, but that they live lives of repression and pain. People don't want to contribute to that. Which, conversely, is why organic meats are becoming so popular.

On a complete side note, I saw the local taco place refilling their sour cream dispensers from this huge vat of sour cream the other day. Why does that sound so gross when a vat of applesauce or melon balls doesn't?

[Baltar]

Originally Posted by Mnemosyne

If you're vegan because you're concerned about killing animals, then should you not also be concerned about the plant life you kill? And where do you draw the line? What about the animals that were inadvertantly killed because they don't have anywhere to live or anything to eat because their natural habitat has been paved over for that new shopping center?

I think humans will always cause some damage to the environment no matter how hard we try to reduce it, simply because we can't live "within" nature as other animals do. We're a bit too advanced for that. But there's certainly quite a bit of room for damage reduction, and we're already trying to reverse damage we've done as a species (protecting endangered animals, reducing deforestation, reducing pollution).

As far as plants go though, I don't see any problem with eating them. Plants don't have a nervous system, they don't feel pain. They also live in a symbiotic relationship with animals -- animals provide plants with food by exhaling carbon dioxide, and animal waste is fertilizer for plants. Plants provide animals with food and oxygen. They can't live without us, and we can't live without them.

Originally Posted by elainevdw

There's a book -- the name of which I can't remember -- that argues that vegetarians kill more animals that meat-eaters do, simply because mass farming practices anhillilate hundreds of thousands of rodents and birds that live in the fields.

Ok, so mass harvesting kills animals. That sucks, I agree. But how about we take into consideration that most of the harvest goes toward feeding farm animals? Escapee posted that "more than 90% of all agricultural land in Britain is used to feed animals." Extrapolating that data, if people didn't eat animals, then there'd be 90% less field animals killed because we'd be harvesting 90% less plants. That book's argument only makes sense if farm animals were raised solely on naturally growing fields with no livestock feed harvesting by humans. That's simply impossible because of how much livestock is being raised.

[Brian20o2]

I personally believe that if your going to eat it you should be able to kill it/harvest it yourself. If your gonna eat meat, you should know what its like to kill, gut, and chop it up. If your gonna be a veg, you should know what it's like to harvest grain.

I see no problem in killing animals for food as it has been done in nature for billions of years and millions by humans.

I also dont see how religion and food can be connected so closley. But then again, I am an agnostic and have my share of assumptions about religions.

[escapee]

I personally think that i can no longer enjoy a steak or a pork chop due to the pain and suffer that has gone through the butcher house. Perhaps my own consciousness has expanded to those poor animals waiting for the most painful and horrific moment in their short & pathetic life. I can almost sense their pain , fear , strong sense of reluctance to get slaughtered and be eaten.

I have not been able to feel this in plants (maybe that's just me that some one can feel it on the plants but not the animals with nervous system ). I also know that when my body dies off , I will return the plants the favor by having them absorp my decomposed body with me having no pain , no suffer and sense of reluctance.