Meat Eaters Unite

[jippykid]

First off, let me start by saying "My name is Josh, and I'm a meat eater" Whew... it's good to finally get that off my chest.

Seriously, though, I feel as if I'm being looked down upon because I ingest animal flesh. It seems that many of you have strong opinions about why you do or do not eat meat.

I'm curious about why those of you who avoid eating meat have made the choice to do so. I've read about the numerous health benefits of eating a diet rich in fruits and vegetables(I eat a lot of them myself, in addition to meat), and I'm also aware of the health risks of eating too much saturated fat. For me, animal protein with a full complement of necessary amino acids seems to make sound nutritional sense.

I'd like to think that I value my life at the same level as I value the life of a cow or a fish, but I think my ego keeps that from being true. Whether it's right or wrong, I believe that we're at the top of the food chain, and it's perfectly natural for me to hunt and eat meat.

Are you aware that our brains grew larger than those of our early ancestors, due in large part to the introduction of meat into the diet of early hominids? For those of you that value your brains (I think anyone coming to this site must place high value on their intelligence) how do you reconcile the fact that it was meat that made you smarter? The link below is just one of the resources I found by doing a quick internet search. I was originally introduced to this concept through a BBC book on human evolution (see second link).

Hominid Chronology

Amazon.com: Dawn of Man: The Story of Human Evolution: Books: DK Publishing

I'm sure this doesn't shake the foundation of your decision to not eat meat, and I would imagine that this is not new information for many of you. For me, though, it put to rest my internal wrestling match over whether I should or should not eat meat. Our ancestors transitioned from being herbivores to being omnivores for a reason. I can say with confidence "My name is Josh, and I'm a meat eater".

[WanderingOak]

I'm with you. I am an Omnivore, and proud of it. I try to eat Oraganic, humanely raised meats most of the time, just because of the complete and total nightmare that factory farming has become.

[Amadeus]

I've heard the same thing on the Discover Channel on a program about our past ancestors. This may be true. However, for some groups of men back in our early past, they had no other choice but to hunt for meat due to climate, drought, etc. Is it possible that man's brain developed through use to calculate and figure the best way to hunt the meat (buffalo, deer, etc.)?Afterall, they were hunting something that was trying to not get killed opposed to a plant just sitting dormant. Using statistics, it might not be the actually meat itself that helped us develop our brains, but the use of the brain to acquire meat.

[Cath]

I'm a meat eater as well. I like the structure and taste of a good piece of meat

[Calculusaurus]

I think vegans here chose their dieting habits for individual reasons.

A good post by bwb (Brian) about becoming vegan is here: A good reason to go vegan

Brian tried going vegan for himself -- not for the ulterior motive of undermining the "evil" ways of meat eaters. Quite simply, he experienced positive results so he stuck with the diet. What more is there to say?

The only crtique about meat eaters is their "out of sight, out of mind" thinking, where as long as they are unaware of the details behind how their meat was prepared, they have no mental obligation to worry about it.

I don't think anyone has criticized a meat eater for making the conscious decision to eat meat, so there's no reason a meat eater should feel out of place in these forums.

Now, onto the "that's how our ancestors lived" arguments.

Our ancestors also had a life expectancy of around 16 years. Antibiotics and other modern medicine were not part of their diets, thus brain development. Nor were processed foods, trans fats, refined sugar or refined grain. Preservatives. Multivitamins. Ground meat. Microwaved foods...

I could go on, but the point is that modern health habits are far removed from those of our ancestors. Yet life expectancy has skyrocketed. Through the advent of modern medicine, science has essentially found a way to exploit the imperfections of the human body.

With modern, large scale health studies (i.e. the China study), science again has found a way to objectively observe all the nuances of diet -- how saturated fat affects heart disease, how omega-3s affect brain development, etc.

Yes, we can look to our ancestors and try to mimick their health habits, noting the various elements that contributed to this or that evolutionary path. But modern health and nutritional science give us a much stronger, better, more objective tool at finding out what's good for our bodies and what's not.

And health studies, so far, have told us that vegetarians and meat eaters alike are entirely capable of functional, healthy lifestyles.

[m0vingon]

I don't think you need to feel as thought you're "looked down upon" for not being vegan/vegetarian. It's a personal choice.

There are numerous belief systems associated with conscious food choices for some of us. I ate meat for the better part of my life. Therein may lie the contention for some.

As to the theory that our brains got bigger because of eating meat... well, I'll just say that all of my biology and neurobiology classes suggested otherwise. Meat itself doesn't provide nutrients that would cause brain growth. Brain evolution is thought to have taken place because of 3 factors: 1) Physiological change 2) Neoteny (slower rate of maturation), and 3) Lifestyle change. Lifestyle change relates to the development of food gathering behaviours including hunting that required a new skill set and thus shows potential to have increased the rate of brain evolution- but that means that eating meat helped the brain evolve because of the skills required to catch meat, not the consumption of meat itself.

I don't think you need to wrestle with the decision to eat meat nor do you need to defend it, just as I don't feel the need to defend being a vegetarian. For me, not eating meat came about from a pursuit of more conscious living and spiritual growth. I also disapprove of the environmental/humanity issues of mass meat production, but if everyone actually got their meat from a local, organic source I'd be very happy. It wouldn't make me want to eat meat as I have no desire to do so, but I don't judge those who do. I am not sure why this turns into a meat vs non-meat eaters battle when there really is none to be had.

[YouseffTheSheep]

I think Josh is trying to get across the point that those in the cult of veganism *Not all vegans, just the pushy, snobby, whiny ones* who condemn others for eating meat should shove off, in very nice and logical terms :-D.

And he has a point. There's absolutely nothing unhealthy about eating some meat. Just the same way there is nothing unhealthy about eating all fruits/veggies.

[Dan.Linehan]

I used to go to steakhouses all the time... I'd order 16oz ribeyes with loaded baked potatos. Meh.

After I read Steve's stuff, I read The Food Revolution, and then I did a 30 day vegan trial... now being vegan is a big part of my life.

The effects of meat eating on the environment are pretty drastic. They're real bad, its not really about your own personal beliefs. If you read the stats and have any capacity at all to think beyond yourself you'll end up realizing it sooner or later.

Some people don't want to admit that such a deeply ingrained habit is such an amazingly poor decision. But it is. Read the stats in food revolution and find out, its all there for you to look at. The vegans that you're saying are stuck up are probably just telling you how it is and you don't want to hear it.

I'm not some new agey animal sympathizer. I grew up on acreage in Ohio. I hunted, I've shot a dozen or so groundhogs every year since I was about eight to keep them from ruining the foundations of our barns. I've shot deer, skinned rabbits, all that. To this day I probably wouldn't have an issue cooking and eating something I killed myself.

But the "food animal" industry isn't like that. The "free range" stuff isn't any better. Dairy cows live for four years, instead of twenty. The animals you eat are pumped with antibiotics, covered with cysts, and tortured for their whole pathetic lives. Are you really sure you wanna be eating / contributing to that?

Have you looked at the videos? The pigs can't even stand up. They're too fattened from genetic modification and their muscles are too atrophied to support them because they can't even turn around in their penns. They literally just fall down and rot until they get slaughtered, and that's an animal with the intelligence of a four year old. And it happens hundreds of millions of times every year, because no one wants to admit that they create / contribute to that situation.

Not to mention the pollution. Or the waste of grain by feeding it to animals instead of directly to people.

Also, human anatonmy is geared towards being a herbivore. Also, going vegan is better for you. Also its better food. You skip fast food, you drink fresh juice, eat raw chocolate, make smoothies, almost everything is unprocessed or organic. Stuff tastes better.

It's not that going vegan isn't a sacrifice, because I guess it is in a sense, its just one that makes your life (and everyone else's) a whole lot richer in the long run.

[escapee]

IMO, All the books that promote the 100% exclusion of animal food for great health are flawed. They fail to understand that when a Steak house chef grills a piece a meat with high heat + processed vegetable oil. The meat becomes a carcinorgen and an artery clogger loaded with

http://www.brianpeskin.com/NEXUS Hid...ry Article.pdf

1 ) Damaged essentiall fatty acid from both the meat and processed vegetable oil that clogs your artery and suffocates your cell .

2) Heteo cyclic amine

3 ) Other damaged nutrients.

Of course the same can be said on French fries ( By theory a vegetarian food as well ) !!

The most practical way to cook a healthy animal dish is water steam with/without unprocessed/organic polyunsatured oil (sensitive to light,heat and air) packaged in dark glass added only after cooking. You can also eat raw animal food like what Masai, Eskimo or Japanese do but bare in mind that there is a risk of unwanted bacteria going into your gut .

[escapee]

But GORILLA IS A VEGAN !!!???

The National Zoo in Washington, D.C. tried to breed the near extinct fruitivorian South American golden marmoset in captivity with no result, but when a little animal protein was added to their diet, they began to breed, which proves that they require a small amount of animal protein to be healthy and reproduce.

[WanderingOak]

Originally Posted by escapee

But GORILLA IS A VEGAN !!!???

I heard tell about zoos having severe malnutrition problems with primates when fed nothing but fruits and vegetables approximating what they would eat in the wild. Wildlife biologists in the field then noticed that wild primates would deliberately seek out insect infested foods for their diet, thus supplementing their diet with protein. The zoo animals were being fed food that had been treated with insecticide while growing, so of course, there were no insects.

[Dharma]

Considering this topic has been beaten to death all ready. The mind has made itself known here. Look at all the evidence that meat eating/veganism is good/bad. All the threads below end up in the same place. Minds spewing facts left and right trying to hold a position of righteousness.

Maybe it's not about righteousness? Maybe the righteousness is hiding something from ourselves? Can you open some space inside and go somewhere else with this?

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/n...uote=1&p=71586

Is Veganism Really the Optimal Choice?

Most Vegetarians Are Unhealthy - Importance Of Dietary Protein.

Veganism in a subjective reality

Concerns about vegan diet

Veganism and killing

http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/h...-veganism.html

When they say: But plants suffer too!

Meat lovers and omnivores

Benefits of Eating Meat

There's a ton more.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Dharma

Maybe it's not about righteousness?

Or maybe it is. Most people believe in a right and a wrong.

If you wake up one morning and go punch your roomate in the face it'll have bad consequences, because it's the wrong thing to do.

[jwz]

If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Couldn't help myself.

I'm a meat-eater too, even though I've been more cautious about what I eat after finding this site. :-)

-Jan

[Cassio]

If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

You too are made of meat. You family and your friends are also made of meat. Why don't you kill them to taste their flesh? Because from your standpoint their lives have value. From the standpoint of a psychopath, their lives might have no value at all.

For me animals matter. They have the right to be here just as we do. They are sentient beings.

I am tired of listening meat-eaters saying we don't respect their choice. Of course I don't respect it, and I never will. They bring unnecessary suffer and pain to this world, for the most foolish reasons.

In fact they are the ones that don't respect the most basic things like freedom, life, our planet and even their bodies. How could I respect that? It would make me an accomplice of their crimes.

Meat is Murder!

[OlderWiser]

Originally Posted by jippykid

Seriously, though, I feel as if I'm being looked down upon because I ingest animal flesh.

That's how you choose to feel.

Originally Posted by jippykid

It seems that many of you have strong opinions about why you do or do not eat meat.

So? There are people here with strong opinions on a lot of things. Does that automatically sway you, as well?

Basically, those who choose vegetarianism or veganism do so for their own reasons. They may well feel strongly about it. They probably do. I don't see how other people's life choices and opinions has anything whatsoever to do with you or your emotions.

I promise I'm not just being mean to you; I'm trying to make a point in a vivid way.

[jwz]

Cassio, sorry if I offended u.

I also would like to try eating vegan for at least a month.
The problem is that it would be VERY expensive to do that where I live. I live in the Northern Greenland, and all (fresh) vegetables are quite expensive, but I occasionally eat some fruit or a homemade salad with garlic etc. when I feel that I need it.

The only vegetables we really got up here are the ones frozen in bags, which doesn't really taste good (most of them at least).

Until the Global Warming really kicks in (Im not stating that I am FOR it), and we get to grow most of our own vegetables, I might have to live of a diet including meat.

BTW, eskimos have been eating mostly meat for centuries until now. That might explain why they were so small and had a short lifespan (besides working too hard all of life of course).

-Jan

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Or maybe it is. Most people believe in a right and a wrong.

If you wake up one morning and go punch your roomate in the face it'll have bad consequences, because it's the wrong thing to do.

Or maybe it's not. Speaking for myself, the type of food I eat is largely not a matter of right versus wrong. There are more and less healthy foods, but that only affects me personally. While I don't condone mistreatment of animals and agree that there's a lot of room for reform in that industry, I don't see where there's a moral issue with me eating them. We should focus on ensuring that animals are well taken care of before slaughter and are slaughtered humanely before we abandon meat altogether. Of course, then there'd be one less argument against meat eating. Maybe that's the stumbling block.

[Sam988]

I love to eat meat too



And i dont plan on stopping right now, but in some years ill start eating less meat. No need to stop or slow it down now, im too young for that.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I don't see where there's a moral issue with me eating them. We should focus on ensuring that animals are well taken care of before slaughter and are slaughtered humanely before we abandon meat altogether.

The moral issue is simple: By paying money to the meat and dairy industries you support the continuance of current torturous industry practices, not reform.

How much money have you donated towards industry reform versus supporting current practices?

It would be kind of like me giving $100 every week to someone who goes around torturing and stomping on puppies and kittens, but telling everyone that I don't see any moral issue with it because I support his reform. But I keep on paying puppy-squasher each week to do his job. I wouldn't really be supporting reform in that scenario, right?

Its funny... most people would never tithe ten percent of their salaries to any good cause, no matter what the benefits, but they consistantly send a substantial percent of their earnings to the meat and dairy industries. Then they deny any responsibility or accountability for what they're funding. I don't understand that. If you're paying for it, how are you not supporting it?

[bert eats dirt]

That's right Dan. If you say you love animals and say they should be treated in only the most humane fashion possible, then that's great, good on you :-) But if you give your money to factory farmers, battery hen house operators, slaughterhouses etc, then whether you want to admit it or not you are giving explicit approval to animal cruelty. Not only that, you are giving the ones being cruel a great incentive to keep doing what they're doing. There is no getting around it. Paying for meat = paying for animal cruelty.

As for those of you making points about our prehistoric predecessors and gorillas - we are not our prehistoric ancestors nor are we gorillas :-) It is completely irrelevant to those of us living now to bring up the diet of pre homo-sapiens humans. Some other evolutionary ancestors of ours also used to live entirely underwater. Should we start doing this too? The truth is we do not need meat to live healthily. We can get all the iron and protein we need from plant sources, millions of people do it all the time. And if gorillas need animal protein to be healthy, so what? I'm not a gorilla! I'm a human, and I don't need animal protein to be healthy. Cats digestive systems are unsuitable for processing plant foods and should be fed an entirely carnivorous diet. So what? I'm a human, not a cat. As far as I'm concerned, these are all lame-o non-reasons meat eaters think up to make themselves feel better about giving money to animal torturers (or to put it gentler, to make themselves feel better about not changing their life long eating habits).

As for the person who said "if we weren't meant to eat animals why were they made of meat?" - lol that's pretty funny.

[pharmboy]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

The moral issue is simple: By paying money to the meat and dairy industries you support the continuance of torturous industry practices, not their reform.

How much money have you donated towards industry reform versus supporting current practices?

It would be kind of like me giving someone $100 every week to go around torturing and squashing dogs and kittens, and telling everyone that I don't see any moral issue with it, that I support reform. But I keep right on paying the puppy-squasher to do his job. Do you see how I wouldn't really be supporting reform in that scenario?

Its funny... most people would never tithe ten percent of their salaries to any good cause, no matter what the benefits, but they consistantly send a substantial percent of their earnings to the meat and dairy industries. Then they deny any responsibility or accountability for what they're funding. I don't understand that. If you're paying for it, how are you not supporting it?

How many of you who criticize the animal industries have ever visited one? I grew up around dairies and meat packing plants and have never seen the atrocities that you speak of. Dairy animals are fed the best feed available and live long productive lives. Feed lot animals are also treated very well. It make no sense to feed people a diseased product. Federal inspectors monitor every step of the process. Ooh! OoH! I know the Feds are in on the conspiracy also. If this is true, then why do they prefer beef as their meal of choice? Would they feed their families a diseased product? My Dad wouldn't and he was a Federal meat grader. He still considers beef the cleanest form of animal protein. The bird industry is a different story. There is a reason that the call them dirty birds.

[escapee]

The truth is we do not need meat to live healthily. We can get all the iron and protein we need from plant sources, millions of people do it all the time

Plant food doesnt offer chelated minerals that are easily absorped by cells , in addition, high phytate/high fiber food such as whole grain and soy block mineral absorption. Does this explain the widespread iron deficiency among the strict vegetarians?

Iron deficiency vegetarian - Yahoo! Search Results

vegetarian: iron deficiency

Another sad story of strict vegetarian

today I tried to give blood, but my iron level was too low. I'm a bit upset because I've been taking iron supplements and eating leafy greens & other rich iron sources. it also upsets me how many people told me to just quit being vegetarian so I can get my iron levels back on track, but I really don't want to. for those of you who have overcome iron deficiencies, what did you do? What was your diet like? iron deficiency also runs in my family, so is it possible that this is just a genetic thing?

Without a doubt, if you'd like to to live a less cruel and heathy life at the same time, Lacto ovo vegetarian - ( with plentry of nuts and seeds intake ) offers the best and safest choice.

NEXUS: Vegetarian Myths - Part 2/2

It is usually claimed that meat-eating peoples have a short lifespan, but the Aborigines of Australia, who traditionally eat a diet rich in animal products, are known for their longevity (at least before colonisation by Europeans). Within Aboriginal society there is a special caste of the elderly.84 Obviously, if no old people existed, no such group would have existed.

In his book Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, Dr Price has numerous photographs of elderly native peoples from around the world. Explorers such as Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported great longevity among the Innuit (again, before colonisation).85 Similarly, the people of the Caucasus Mountains live to great ages on a diet of fatty pork and whole raw milk products. The Hunzas, also known for their robust health and longevity, drink substantial portions of goat's milk, which has a higher saturated fat content than cow's milk.86 In contrast, the largely vegetarian Hindus of southern India have the shortest lifespans in the world, partly because of a lack of food but also because of a distinct lack of animal protein in their diets.87

What are the real culprils that are responsible for the deterioration of health in the industrial world ? IMHO , there are
1) Processed vegetable oil/ Trans fats
2) Packaged/processed food loaded with addictives and deficient in EFAs and micro-nutrients to get higher shelf life (instead of health life )
2) Overcooked food ( Grilling, deep frying )
3) Pollution
4) sedentary lifestyle + Overconsumption of Refined carbohydrate such as sugar, candy, cookie, pastaand etc (All of which are vegetarian food of course )
the list goes on

[Que]

Originally Posted by pharmboy

How many of you who criticize the animal industries have ever visited one? I grew up around dairies and meat packing plants and have never seen the atrocities that you speak of. Dairy animals are fed the best feed available and live long productive lives. Feed lot animals are also treated very well. It make no sense to feed people a diseased product. Federal inspectors monitor every step of the process. Ooh! OoH! I know the Feds are in on the conspiracy also. If this is true, then why do they prefer beef as their meal of choice? Would they feed their families a diseased product? My Dad wouldn't and he was a Federal meat grader. He still considers beef the cleanest form of animal protein. The bird industry is a different story. There is a reason that the call them dirty birds.

Same here in the Philippines. I know some people who actualy worked on piggery farms and they too must undergo regular check-ups to ensure "safety" of these animals. I think our meats here are safe, I never buy "imported meat" though.

[Matthew Shea]

Pharmboy's and Que's accounts of the reality of the dairy industry sound a lot more realistic to me that those of most vegans. While I'm sure there are some farms that abuse their animals, I cannot imagine that most farmers, in good conscience, could do what you speak of, Dan. Are you really saying that so many farmers are so corrupt and have such little regard for life and for the animals that provide their sustenance that animals all across the country are being tortured? I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

I did say, though, that there's room for reform, and we should certainly provide the enforcement to fix up the bad guys or put them out of business. I'd also like to see antibiotics tightly restricted (only when the cow is actually ill) and organic methods become more widespread, but I don't buy the widespread torture arguments. Show me some impartial numbers, first, then I'll believe you. Anecdotal evidence is not enough to convict a criminal and it shouldn't be enough to judge the forthrightness of an entire industry.

[newdad]

I'm a meat-eater and proud of it.

Couple of things:
1. If you remove our bodies of the essential materials that give us life, you would find that the two largest portions of materials are water and protein. Which means that in order to exist we need these two materials more than anything. Protein comes in several varieties and unlike animal meat which provides all of the essential proteins there are few plants that offer more than one or two of the essential proteins. We need animal meat to get all of the essential proteins.

2. Who says we are physically desgined for eating plants? Look at the predators on this planet and you will see two distinguishing features. One, is the forward facing eyes that allow us to target in on our prey. Non-predators have side facing eyes that give them a wider field of vision to watch for predators. Two, we still have our canine teeth, which have the sole purpose of tearing flesh. We were born to eat meat.

3. Let us suppose the entire world did stop eating meat. What would happen? All the farmers of the world raising animals would have two choices. One would be to set the animals free to fend for themselves. The majority of the domesticated animals do not have the ability to survive on their own and therefore would slowly die from starvation. (Sounds worse than the quick death they would receive if they were raised for food.) The second option, would be to put all the animals down, because the farmer knows that the only other option is the slow, cruel death of starvation. Now the animal is dead and has surved no purpose. Suddenly we have millions of dead animals that would have to be disposed of before disease runs rampant. I suppose we could burn the bodies, which would release all kinds of pollutants into the air, probably increasing global warming. Or we could bury the bodies somewhere, we would need new landfills though.

Once the nasty problem of dealing with all those uselss animals is dealt with then we need to solve a new issue. How do we feed the now extremely large population of non-meat eaters. Larger crops would be needed. We wouldn't be able to cut into the cities, which means forests would need to be cleared to make room to plant the new crops that would be on demand. And because we don't have animal waste anymore to use for our organic fertilizers we need to up our oil productions in order to create synthetic fertilizers that's where they come from folks) Things keep getting worse. You guys keep the conclusions comming

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by newdad

I'm a meat-eater and proud of it.

Couple of things:

2. Who says we are physically desgined for eating plants? Look at the predators on this planet and you will see two distinguishing features. One, is the forward facing eyes that allow us to target in on our prey. Non-predators have side facing eyes that give them a wider field of vision to watch for predators. Two, we still have our canine teeth, which have the sole purpose of tearing flesh. We were born to eat meat.

3. Let us suppose the entire world did stop eating meat. What would happen? All the farmers of the world raising animals would have two choices. One would be to set the animals free to fend for themselves. The majority of the domesticated animals do not have the ability to survive on their own and therefore would slowly die from starvation. (Sounds worse than the quick death they would receive if they were raised for food.) The second option, would be to put all the animals down, because the farmer knows that the only other option is the slow, cruel death of starvation. Now the animal is dead and has surved no purpose. Suddenly we have millions of dead animals that would have to be disposed of before disease runs rampant. I suppose we could burn the bodies, which would release all kinds of pollutants into the air, probably increasing global warming. Or we could bury the bodies somewhere, we would need new landfills though.

Evidence for number 2 usually comes from how we digest food and that fact that are teeth are not really predator teeth. We have a couple teeth that can tear but most of our teeth are meant for plant based foods as is our digestive system.

Number 3... i would rather be free and die, then live for a couple more years in captivity. Also, all we have to do is stop breading animals to be killed. The one time effort of returning animals to an environment more suited to them is nothing compared to all the current resources we use (gas, trucks for moving animals and getting lots of medication to them, methane by products, the all the food and water we use for those animals (90 percent of the US corn supply is used to raise animals, think of the water, fuel, time, and food we lose by having all these animals), and so much more)

It only takes quarter to one half acre to feed a vegan for a year. It takes about 3 acres to feed a meet eater a year. So really we would have more land and more food. (For those interested, that stat came from diet for a new America by john Robbins).

Adrienne

[newdad]

Also, all we have to do is stop breading animals to be killed.

So, all we have to do is let an animal slowly go extinct in order to safe ourselves the guilt of living. Note, I didn't say surving. You can survive on Soy, but it is not the same as living.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by pharmboy

Dairy animals are fed the best feed available and live long productive lives.

Dairy animals live short, tortured lives. I'm not sure where you're getting your info.

• The average life expentency is about for a dairy cow in the US is about 4 years instead of twenty.
  
  
• 25% of dairy cattle are slaughtered before they are 3 years old. Only 25% of dairy cattle live more than 7 years, although the natural life span for cattle is 20-25 years.
  
  
• Intensive dairy practices and modified feeds have enabled U.S. dairy cows to produce 2.5 times as much milk today as they did in the 1950s. These intensive practices place dairy cattle under enormous stress to produce an abnormally large amount of milk, 10-20 times the amount of milk they need to suckle their calves. As a result, dairy cattle "burn out" at a much younger age than their normal life span or even the life span of a milk-producing dairy cow in the 1950s and consequently are culled and slaughtered at an early age.
  
  
• Up to 33% of dairy cows develop mastitis, a very painful udder infection that can become systemic, and is a common reason for early slaughtering.
  
  
• Abnormally large udders produce problems walking, so a cow's legs are usually spread apart, distorting the normal configurations of her pelvis and spine. Back problems are aggravated when they walk on hard ground and concrete.
  
  
• Every year 17 million shots of antibiotics are given to cattle for infections related to milk production and other diseases.
  
  
• The excessive consumption of antibiotic-tainted animal products has created a number of antibiotic-resistant bacteria (superbugs) that may be a threat to human health.
  
  
• The nearly half a million factory farms in the U.S. produce 130 times more waste than the human population. Cattle produce nearly one billion tons of organic waste each year.
  

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by escapee

Another sad story of strict vegetarian..

The stories you cite are people who don't eat enough calories, not sad cases of veganism. They have nothing to do with veganism, beyond it being the scapegoat that people use to hide their eating disorders.

I gained 15 pounds in the first six months I was vegan: from 6'2, 165 pounds to 6'2 180 pounds.