Meat Eaters Unite

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by 1000feet

It sounds like several people posting on this thread really never let go

I wanted to see if there were any valid reasons for continuing to eat meat and dairy. I'm not seeing any so I'll duck out now.

I'm not mad at any of you meat eaters, I just think its just important that you know what you're funding. One person's eating habits are a pretty big deal long term.

Oh, and as far as the health outcries, here's just one page from The Food Revolution:



What else do you think you might be eating? *Hint* It's not just cyst juice..

[bert eats dirt]

Originally Posted by 1000feet

It sounds like several people posting on this thread really never let go... maybe you think about people eating meat from tortured animals so much that you manifest all of us

Hey there are some persistant meat eaters in the debate too And if I see a claim that I feel like disputing, I'll dispute it

Originally Posted by escapee

When ADA says vegetarian diet, does that include milk and egg ? If it's then the discussion is over. I have no issue with lacto/ovo vegetarians who include a small amount of animal food in their diet.

The ADA says both vegan and vegetarian diets can be healthy. What you've described there sums me up (vegetarian with a some dairy on most days and the occasional egg), although I am sympathetic to the vegan cause from an ethical view point - I still disagree with treating animals as commodities but for now I'm going to be a hypocrit and eat cheese & drink milk

[escapee]

but for now I'm going to be a hypocrit and eat cheese & drink milk

Oh yes, go ahead an do it without the sense of guilt.

[Matthew Shea]

Originally Posted by Dan.Linehan

Oh, hey, if you don't buy it, it must not be true. My bad.

By the way, where did you get the numbers you quoted earlier? Was that from an impartial study funded by an organization outside the food industry or was that from a vegan/vegetarian lifestyle group? If the latter, I still don't buy it. I'm not saying it's not true, just that I'm not buying it before I see some more convincing proof from someone who doesn't have an agenda.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

I'm not buying it before I see some more convincing proof

This document cites its sources, and everything is verifiable and independent.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/campaign/dairy_report.pdf

[Matthew Shea]

Independent??? The organization that published that certainly has an agenda, but I'll give you that it's verifiable.

Here's something else I came across.

USDA Report on Dairy Cattle Welfare Issues

Here's the USDA's animal welfare site for those who are interested.

Both sources show substantial room for improvement, but I'm still not sure abandoning the industry is necessary. People, by and large, don't think about issues like this. If this issue was more widely presented to the public, it would be moot. Perhaps that's the answer.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Both sources show substantial room for improvement, but I'm still not sure abandoning the industry is necessary.

• Are most food animals in pain for the majority of their short, caged lives? Yep.
  
  
• Is it obvious that something is terribly unnatural with our processes and operations simply by looking at the amount of milk one cow is forced to produce, and the animals' drastically short life expectancies (five years instead of twenty)? Yep.
  
  
• Is the environment worse off with dairy farms than if would be if the land was used for grain production? Yep.
  
  
• Do people around the globe starve every year because our planet's natural resources aren't used properly? Yep.
  
  
• Are anitbiotics used on the animals that carry over into the final products we consume? Yep.
  
  
• Does that increase the chances of a superbug virus evolving? Yep.
  
  
• Are there trillions of tons of pollution left over from the industry? Yep.

So, what is the virtue in supporting this industry?

You support it, you tell me.

[frogcat]

Hello, all,
I'm a first time poster, long time reader of Stevepavlina.

As a meat eater who's wondered about my rationale for doing so, I have been reading this thread with interest, and shaking my head.

Basically, I think that people are kind of talking at cross purposes on this subject.

Here's my take on a lot of the anti-meat eating argument:

The most compelling one I've ever seen was Steve Pavlina's, way back when, where he basically says he tried it, and felt much much better.

I was kind of hoping to see similar testimonials on this thread, but only saw one poster who said they never noticed a physical difference.

Why is this the most compelling to me? Because it directly address my self-interest. All the arguments on trying to show ethical or health or disgust based reasons don't really sway me.

I remember a few years back, travelling through the Philippines, and feeling very disturbed when I heard pigs being slaughtered. The screams sound almost human.

Then, when staying with relatives of neighbors of relatives on a farm in a distant province, I was invited to help slaughter a pig in preparation for a barrio fiesta.

I figured, this is a moment of truth. By eating meat, I'm an agent of death for the animals. Will I be a hypocrite and back down when it comes time to literally kill it myself? Can I confront the reality of an animal suffering and dying so I can eat it?

Turns out, actively helping kill the pig was nowhere as unpleasant as hearing the pigs get killed. It's almost by directly doing the deed, I knew exactly what was happening. And able to take full "responsibility" for the deaths involved whenever I eat meat.

Bottom line? mmmm, I sure do love pork.

[bert eats dirt]

Why is this the most compelling to me? Because it directly address my self-interest. All the arguments on trying to show ethical or health or disgust based reasons don't really sway me.

You've got to be kidding me! Are you incapable of empathising with anything outside of yourself? How's this for self interest - imagine yourself as the pig - being kept in a tiny prison cell your whole life, being killed and emitting those screams, not because the ones doing the killing have been without food for a long time and just need to eat something, not because they need to eat your flesh to remain healthy, but because they like how you taste. Is your suffering and slaughter worth that? If that was you being treated like that would you find that acceptable??

Try thinking outside the box.

[Adrienne]

Originally Posted by frogcat

Hello, all,
I'm a first time poster, long time reader of Stevepavlina.

As a meat eater who's wondered about my rationale for doing so, I have been reading this thread with interest, and shaking my head.

Basically, I think that people are kind of talking at cross purposes on this subject.

Here's my take on a lot of the anti-meat eating argument:

The most compelling one I've ever seen was Steve Pavlina's, way back when, where he basically says he tried it, and felt much much better.

I was kind of hoping to see similar testimonials on this thread, but only saw one poster who said they never noticed a physical difference.

Why is this the most compelling to me? Because it directly address my self-interest. All the arguments on trying to show ethical or health or disgust based reasons don't really sway me.

I remember a few years back, travelling through the Philippines, and feeling very disturbed when I heard pigs being slaughtered. The screams sound almost human.

Then, when staying with relatives of neighbors of relatives on a farm in a distant province, I was invited to help slaughter a pig in preparation for a barrio fiesta.

I figured, this is a moment of truth. By eating meat, I'm an agent of death for the animals. Will I be a hypocrite and back down when it comes time to literally kill it myself? Can I confront the reality of an animal suffering and dying so I can eat it?

Turns out, actively helping kill the pig was nowhere as unpleasant as hearing the pigs get killed. It's almost by directly doing the deed, I knew exactly what was happening. And able to take full "responsibility" for the deaths involved whenever I eat meat.

Bottom line? mmmm, I sure do love pork.

I did it orginally because of animal rights.

But on a health standpoint. I feel so much better, have much more energy, sleep less, and almost never get ill.

It took me a little time to figue out what i needed to do to be vegan (supplementing calcium, omega 3 and omega 6, B vitiams esp B12,). I felt crappy until i started doing that. It took me a couple months of reading and researching until i figued out the answer of what worked for me.

I feel great much better then i ever did being a meat eater. That being said tho, even if i felt crappy, i would not go back to eating meat.

Adrienne

[frogcat]

Adrienne, thanks for the add'l testimony on feeling better by giving up meat.

Bert eats Dirt, no thanks for the "appeal" to my ethical side. Have you ever heard the saying "the meaning of your communication is the response you get" i.e. look at the *results* of your communications to determine what meaning you were *actually* communicating.

Anyways, due to issues I've got with spending too much time online, I am afraid I 'm going ot have to do something rather rude, namely, I started stirring up add'l threads, and now I will not be able to read any replies.

Which is frustrating, because you have very interesting things to say. And I learn from them.

Ciao!

[Matthew Shea]

Dan, we'll have to agree to disagree. Although I agree with your arguments in principle, I'm not convinced the problem is as dire as you state. If it was, I'd advocate fixing the problem over abandoning meat. Like it or not, I believe humans were given dominion over animals, including using them for food without fear of moral ramnifications. I don't advocate mistreatment, as I've consistently stated, and agree there's room for improvement, but I don't agree that animals are as widely abused as you claim.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Matthew Shea

Dan, we'll have to agree to disagree. Although I agree with your arguments in principle, I'm not convinced the problem is as dire as you state.

Meh, I tend to look at most things in almost absolutist terms, and then choose the path that I feel is right and pursue it.

In the case of diet, veganism is better, as far as I can tell. More virtous. So I do it.

Something doesn't have to be dire for me to do it. Getting out of bed in the morning isn't dire, for example, but I still do every day regardless.

I doubt that we disagree as much as you think. Pursuing something better just wins over trying to fix something that broken.

Have a good one,

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Matthew Shea, perhaps you would read the following book about dominion.

Dominion: The Power of Man, the Suffering of Animals, and the Call to Mercy

You still may not find your opinion changed, but it's an excellent read on the subject. It was very thought provoking for me.

[frogcat]

I'm experimenting with not browsing the web for 30 days, but I was really productive all day and figured I'd "reward" myself...

And saying I wouldn't be back stuck in my head like an incompleted thread...

Anyhoodles, I just read this great article on reddit which explains better than I ever could why an ethical "appeal" to vegitarianism isn't going to sway many people...

The Monkeysphere: Why you don't care about 99.99999% of humanity
Inside the Monkeysphere

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by frogcat

why an ethical "appeal" to vegitarianism isn't going to sway many people

You're basically saying "Its been agreed, the whole world stinks, so no ones taking showers anymore."

Amazon.com: The Moon & Antarctica: Music: Modest Mouse

Great CD by the way, but not a great philosophy to live by.

[bert eats dirt]

frogcat, I kind of regretted what I wrote there, it was an emotional response written after I read your first post. I knew as I was writing it that it would probably have zero effect on you (ranting and raving at someone is the most ineffective way to change their mind, I know). I was just shocked that you would be so blatantly "selfish", ie that the arguments about the ethics of killing & eating another living creature meant nothing to you but the feeling of not eating meat on your own body did affect you. I found that shocking, and reacted by my above forum post.

[MikeM]

I don't think man could exist on wild food if he was to be a non meat eater and due to lack of calories.

Firstly, try to eat grain that has not been cooked or crushed. Secondly, wild and natural vegetables and fruits are much lower in calories than the domesticated versions we buy.

If someone chooses not to eat animal food because of animal rights then I can understand that. However, I think they cloud the issue by saying we should have meat in our diets because of nutrition and related reasons. I feel if vegans are 100% honest with themselves then they would see if they were left in the wild that vegetable matter would at best be a side meal.

We don't need to go too far back in history to see that the Australian aboriginal, American indians and African natives had meat/aniamls supplying the bulk of their calories.

As to PETA if they were for real then initially they would encourage hunting (as opposed to being extremely anti gun/hunting) as a "first stage" since each dear etc we kill and eat is less cattle/sheep etc that need to be farmed. The facts are that PETA would prefer me not to hunt and thus contribute to additional animals being farmed.

Mike

[llong]

Originally Posted by MikeM

We don't need to go too far back in history to see that the Australian aboriginal, American indians and African natives had meat/aniamls supplying the bulk of their calories.

I've heard the exact opposite....can you cite your sources?

[MikeM]

llong

Just do a search on American indian diet for starters.

Note that in my post I said the bulk of the calories came from animal products.

As to the Australian aboriginal it is hard to fathom how they could have lived in Australia if the bulk of their calories had to come from vegetation.

I think most people who have read much about diet would agree that you can turn up many sources to back virtually any point of view. However, if you look at people who lived without civilisation then to me the question keeps popping up about what could they have eaten to survive.....grass, leaves, twigs etc. If we could eat grass I would assume we would need to graze all day.

My belief is that we are omnivores but conditions would mean that the bulk of our calories would have to come from meat. I think if that was not the case then we would have been restricted to living in areas where there were wild fruits growing.

Australia is hardly the Garden of Eden and perhaps that is why so much Aboriginal culture is centred around eating kangaroos, monitor lizards, snakes etc.

Mike