Martial artists: How do you make the art compatible with unconditional love?

[Asten]

If unconditional love isn't one of your values, this isn't a question for you.

I've been studying a kung fu style for over a year. In Steve's terms, it was an embodiment of "power," my weakest trait.

Then for the last 6 months, I've been putting on a new "reality lens" and exploring Hinduism. I've been thinking in terms of connectedness, divine love, unconditional love, and oneness. So I'm more focused on "love."

Consequently, I'm drifting away from kung fu. I feel conflicted when I train. Strangely, I feel like I'm going against my present values.

I know martial arts is ultimately an exploration and expression of the self, but I'm struggling to express unconditional love in a style that is powerful, efficient, and even brutal. I know I need to change the way I think about kung fu to make it work, but I haven't figured out how to yet. I've talked to my sifu (teacher) about it, but I want more thoughts.

So for those of you that practice a martial art, how do you find unconditional love within it? How do you express it? When you spar, what are you doing within yourself that aligns you to it? When you strike, what are you aligned to?

How do you make martial arts compatible with your value of unconditional love?

Thanks in advance, for your thoughts.

[bluelighth]

I actually stopped training a while back, and while I have been thinking of returning, I understand your perspective and still hold it to an extent...
However - depending on the style/manner of training, you may be able to look at training as improving your physical body and mental capabilities, in a manner that is collaborative with the people you are training with. Another thing is that by learning how to do things that are lethal, you also learn what's not lethal, and get to a state where it's more likely, in case you need to use it, that you would not accidentally take someones life.

those are the two ideas I found on this...

[Medusa locked]

This is an intriguing contemplation. I've never thought about alignment with unconditional love in my training before. However, I would have to say that the discipline of focus and centered concentration is a parody of that quality.

When you train and bring your focus in the moment, focusing only on form and execution, are you not then clearing the mind of conditions and judgement while connecting with yourself. I'm thinking unconditional love is one powerful way to be in a state of flow and thus allowing access to your inner most power.

[NickW]

Originally Posted by Asten

Then for the last 6 months, I've been putting on a new "reality lens" and exploring Hinduism. I've been thinking in terms of connectedness, divine love, unconditional love, and oneness. So I'm more focused on "love."

Re your exploration of Hinduism:

In the Bhagavad Gita, what does Krishna tell Arjuna on the battlefield?

[Philemon]

This is an awesome question, Asten!!!

I'll be back with some thoughts...

[Philemon]

Alright, I really like the thoughts already in this thread, but I'll add some of my perspective.

In my opinion, great Martial Artists, no matter what form they study, have no desire to actually use it on anyone. Sure, I know how to blow out someone's knees, or deliver an incapacitating blow to the throat, and so on, but does that mean I want to use this skill?

Of course, the answer is no. Because I have peace within and love for my fellow man, I will do whatever I can to avoid this situation. Even if I am FORCED into a fight, because of my training, I will be able to remain calm (keep the love) and only do what is necessary to resolve the problem. Sure, I'm trained for the worst, for the most extreme, but if I carry love I'm likely not to fall into that dilemma. A good friend and skilled martial artist recently told me that his favorite skill is his ability to run fast - he can run away from almost any fight. I really respect him for this. He could easily win most fights, but in the rare chance he has that opportunity, his first instinct is to run. He has a lot of love.

Basically, Asten, I love this thought you're considering here, but I don't see martial arts getting in the way of unconditional love; I think it has great potential to strengthen your love.

My Sensei used to say to us all the time, "I'm teaching you all of these fighting skills, but if you are a great martial artist, you will never have to fight, and no one will even know you are a martial artist." As an example, I've avoided fights with my body language. I appear submissive, but really I'm in a defensive stance where I could easily counter attack if necessary. Or the hands up and open, "I don't want to fight" - I'm actually in a great defensive stance.

All that said, perhaps Kung Fu is not the best style for you right now. I don't know. Maybe you could find a more defensive style. I studied Shorin-ryu. It was taught to me as primarily defensive. That's a limit, I suppose. I don't think I'd be very good at throwing the first punch, but why would I anyway? And any counter attack necessary would only be delivered as necessary, if I'm carrying my love of course.

[Clint Cora]

As a martial arts 'lifer' who started about 36 years ago and competed for 20 plus years, I see no problem whatsoever with martial arts and unconditional love. Proof? Here's my own martial arts background and on top of that, I've been a dedicated dog owner for 32 years now.

As all of you pet lovers out there already know, we have unconditional love with our beloved pets. I've continued to enjoy the great benefits of having both martial arts and dogs in my life.

So no conflicts here.

[iDreamCatcher]

"Enlightened man is free of all concepts, including the concept of non-violence".

--Eckhart Tolle

[Asten]

Great discussion on this! Thanks again for the thoughts, everyone.

Originally Posted by bluelighth

However - depending on the style/manner of training, you may be able to look at training as improving your physical body and mental capabilities, in a manner that is collaborative with the people you are training with. Another thing is that by learning how to do things that are lethal, you also learn what's not lethal, and get to a state where it's more likely, in case you need to use it, that you would not accidentally take someones life.

Both good points.

Sometimes I have a hard time realizing the power of individual expressions of unconditional love (like collaboration with my training partners). That big issue is another post for another day, but I'll keep that weakness and your point in mind.

Originally Posted by Medusa locked

This is an intriguing contemplation. I've never thought about alignment with unconditional love in my training before. However, I would have to say that the discipline of focus and centered concentration is a parody of that quality.

When you train and bring your focus in the moment, focusing only on form and execution, are you not then clearing the mind of conditions and judgement while connecting with yourself. I'm thinking unconditional love is one powerful way to be in a state of flow and thus allowing access to your inner most power.

Fascinating idea... I'm going to have to think a lot about that, because I think you're absolutely right, but I can't wrap my mind around it entirely yet. If I can though, so long as I'm truly engaged in my training, I'm inherently aligning with unconditional love.

Originally Posted by NickW

Re your exploration of Hinduism:

In the Bhagavad Gita, what does Krishna tell Arjuna on the battlefield?

Oddly (or maybe not so oddly, as it was intentional), my exploration has been entirely through people and related activities--I haven't read the Bhagavad Gita yet, because I didn't feel called to it. I tend to intellectualize things too much, so when I realized I was naturally exploring through connections to others, I decided to roll with it and not get into the texts yet.

This is the second time it's come up recently, in relation to martial arts in fact, so I think it's finally time. So I'll report back.

Originally Posted by Philemon

Alright, I really like the thoughts already in this thread, but I'll add some of my perspective.

In my opinion, great Martial Artists, no matter what form they study, have no desire to actually use it on anyone. Sure, I know how to blow out someone's knees, or deliver an incapacitating blow to the throat, and so on, but does that mean I want to use this skill?

Of course, the answer is no. Because I have peace within and love for my fellow man, I will do whatever I can to avoid this situation. Even if I am FORCED into a fight, because of my training, I will be able to remain calm (keep the love) and only do what is necessary to resolve the problem. Sure, I'm trained for the worst, for the most extreme, but if I carry love I'm likely not to fall into that dilemma. A good friend and skilled martial artist recently told me that his favorite skill is his ability to run fast - he can run away from almost any fight. I really respect him for this. He could easily win most fights, but in the rare chance he has that opportunity, his first instinct is to run. He has a lot of love.

Basically, Asten, I love this thought you're considering here, but I don't see martial arts getting in the way of unconditional love; I think it has great potential to strengthen your love.

My Sensei used to say to us all the time, "I'm teaching you all of these fighting skills, but if you are a great martial artist, you will never have to fight, and no one will even know you are a martial artist." As an example, I've avoided fights with my body language. I appear submissive, but really I'm in a defensive stance where I could easily counter attack if necessary. Or the hands up and open, "I don't want to fight" - I'm actually in a great defensive stance.

All that said, perhaps Kung Fu is not the best style for you right now. I don't know. Maybe you could find a more defensive style. I studied Shorin-ryu. It was taught to me as primarily defensive. That's a limit, I suppose. I don't think I'd be very good at throwing the first punch, but why would I anyway? And any counter attack necessary would only be delivered as necessary, if I'm carrying my love of course.

What your Sensei said--I've heard that as well. While I know it to be true, I have a hard time aligning myself to that when I'm actually doing martial arts. I think it's the mixed messages: I'm supposed to feel pride, desire to win (i.e.; tournaments, sparring matches, etc.), and show good skill to bring honor... and yet, as your Sensei said, " . . . if you are a great martial artist, you will never have to fight, and no one will even know you are a martial artist."

Confusing! I don't know what to align myself with. I'm getting so many ego-based messages, and then completely contradictory messages haha.

I also realized in asking this same question elsewhere, I unconsciously (now consciously) still see martial arts as a power struggle--a win/lose, victor/victim situation. I think that's due to the mixed messages as well.

I obviously align better to striving to move beyond my ego, or I wouldn't be asking this question, but the mixed messages are still driving me a little insane. I'm certain it's all a matter of perspective though, and I just haven't figured out the right perspective.

I actually have picked up a style that is more defensive and based on counter-movements recently. This has helped.

Originally Posted by Clint Cora

As a martial arts 'lifer' who started about 36 years ago and competed for 20 plus years, I see no problem whatsoever with martial arts and unconditional love. Proof? Here's my own martial arts background and on top of that, I've been a dedicated dog owner for 32 years now.

As all of you pet lovers out there already know, we have unconditional love with our beloved pets. I've continued to enjoy the great benefits of having both martial arts and dogs in my life.

So no conflicts here.

What about the people in your life? People you train with or spar with?

When you're doing those things, how do you express unconditional love to them, through your martial arts?

As in, what perspective do you take to align yourself with unconditional love, in the moment? (assuming you desire to do that)

Originally Posted by iDreamCatcher

"Enlightened man is free of all concepts, including the concept of non-violence".

--Eckhart Tolle

True!

Still struggling with that concept thing.

[Asten]

I'd still love any and all perspectives/thoughts people have.

The more I get responses from people, the closer I feel to figuring things out and experiencing the shift in my perspective that will resolve this--so close, yet so far!

[Medusa locked]

Originally Posted by Asten

I'd still love any and all perspectives/thoughts people have.

The more I get responses from people, the closer I feel to figuring things out and experiencing the shift in my perspective that will resolve this--so close, yet so far!

I hope you do. However, something that comes to mind from reading about your encounter of mixed messages is the idea of dualities.

Maybe unconditional love needs its opposite's presence in order to know itself by. Maybe conditionality, ego and pride is a necessary place to come from in order to experience unconditional love.

I'm having a similar conflict about connection vs independence. I hope you find a way to reconcile the mixed messages and share with us.

[Asten]

Originally Posted by Medusa locked

I hope you do. However, something that comes to mind from reading about your encounter of mixed messages is the idea of dualities.

Maybe unconditional love needs its opposite's presence in order to know itself by. Maybe conditionality, ego and pride is a necessary place to come from in order to experience unconditional love.

I'm having a similar conflict about connection vs independence. I hope you find a way to reconcile the mixed messages and share with us.

I also have a conflict with connection vs. independence, actually.

If I figure this duality thing out, I'll certainly share.

[Philemon]

Being in a competitive atmosphere can be a tricky environment alongside getting a grasp on the ego. Do you enjoy competing? It sounds like you may not. If you do, just try to enjoy it at that moment. Deal with the ego when it comes to hanging on to the pride or loss afterward - keep it from lingering. The ego can do some good.

I like these questions you pose, Asten:

""""""What about the people in your life? People you train with or spar with?
When you're doing those things, how do you express unconditional love to them, through your martial arts?
As in, what perspective do you take to align yourself with unconditional love, in the moment? (assuming you desire to do that)""""""

First, to have unconditional love, do you need to constantly express it? I'm not sure, but it sounds tiring. Or perhaps it'd be energizing...hmmm

Another thought, think of kids play-fighting. Once we get really good at playfighting, I think a lot of love can be shared. Of course, kids, or even adults, sometimes cross into other emotional territories.

....a friend once begged me to punch him in the face. I punched him in the chest/shoulder instead. He thought that was very loving, it seemed, and thanked me deeply....

the thought i'm having now is that if you have unconditional love, it would spontaneously express itself in all sorts of situations, every situation, rather effortlessly.

[Agota]

It all depends on why you're studying martial arts and who are you studying under, since in martial arts, almost everything depends on the teacher you have.

Anyway..

1. Traditional martials arts, when they're actually practiced as an art and a way of both physical and spiritual development (as opposed to mere self-defense) are meant to make a more peaceful and a more harmonious person. Skilled martial artists usually don't look for fights. It's also interesting that people who study martial arts often get into less trouble than an average person because they're so used to seeing a fight before it starts and avoiding it. There's a saying that a real master is not the one who wins the fight, the real master is the one who doesn't get into a fight in a first place.

2. You can have love and peace inside while acting very aggressive on the outside if the situation requires it. Maintaining an inner peace in a conflict situations is a very hard thing to do and it's even harder when conflict gets physical, but no one said that achieving a high level of spiritual development is easy, right? Anyway, the calmer you're inside (doesn't matter how aggresive you play on the outside), the better fighter you're.

Many people simply can't get this idea on remaining calm on the inside while engaging in activities that are physically violent on the outside, but honestly, that's just a narrow thinking. A good example can be sparring.In my eyes, sparring is just an exercise and I don't associate it with aggression or anger, even though I might look aggressive on the outside. I also don't get angry if someone punches me in the face in sparrings, etc. (I think I got like 15 straight punches in my head and felt dizzy for few days after a last chapionship I've been in.. I was never angry on a girl who kicked my ass, my only thought was "♥♥♥♥, I really have to work on my upper body defense"). The problem is that many people just can't get it and they don't believe me when I say that you don't get angry on sparring unless you're a complete newbie. The same applies to actual physical fights, although remaining peaceful in an actual fights is way, way more difficult than remaining peaceful in sparring.

3. I think that many people who think that physical violence is necessarily contradictory to love and inner peace simply don't think things through. I mean, if you are going home with your girlfriend and five guys assault you, they want to kill you and your girlfriend, well, should you fight back or not? The attitude "I'm such a loving person, I won't hurt anyone even if they want to beat me up, rape me and then kill me" is plain unhealthy and indicates serious mental issues from psychological perspective.

Also, from spiritual perspective, would you say it is an expression of unconditional love to do nothing when someone tries to rape or kill someone else? Obviously not. Consequently, why it would be okay to do nothing in the situation where you're a victim? You would still be letting someone hurt an innocent person, although that person is you this time.

In Buddhism, there's also an idea of harming a person in order to prevent him or her from negative actions he or she is about to commit. I think in Tibet there was a ritual performed by lamas on very violent Chinese officers that would kill an officer. Now, in Buddhism, there's a concept that action is nor good nor bad but motivation behind it makes it so, and although killing is a very negative action, lamas had a pure motivation to prevent the officer from horrible consequences of his own actions by stopping him this way. On a simpler level, when you defend yourself, you do prevent someone else from doing something bad. It's a good thing for them in the long run.

Truth be told, I think that you have to try to go beyond dualism in order to understand that physical violence and love are not necessarily in conflict.

As for me, I wouldn't be able to intentionally kill a mosquito because of my religious beliefs, I just can't kill bugs. However, if someone would try to rape me or kill me, or rape or kill someone else, I believe I wouldn't have any hesitations when defending myself or another person. You have to be able to see past the dualism in order to understand why someone who can't kill a mosquito wouldn't have problems seriously injuring or killing a human being in a certain situation.

[Medusa locked]

Ok, I'm seeing a lot of posters talking about peace, but the thread is more about unconditional love. I know the 2 overlap at some point but are they really the same?

[bodi]

I used to believe in unconditional love. Then I recognized that it was a belief and immediately, sternly told myself to change it into an idea, at which point I immediately realized that there is no such thing as practical unconditional love, only theoretical unconditional love.

You cannot practice unconditional love in anything like a pure form, or you would have to sacrifice yourself, everything you have, and everything you are, right now....

[bodi]

oh, and sometimes, a m*!(#@ just needs his @$$ beat, morally and karmically, in the name of love....like when someone threatens your child...

[Medusa locked]

Originally Posted by bodi

I used to believe in unconditional love. Then I recognized that it was a belief and immediately, sternly told myself to change it into an idea, at which point I immediately realized that there is no such thing as practical unconditional love, only theoretical unconditional love.

You cannot practice unconditional love in anything like a pure form, or you would have to sacrifice yourself, everything you have, and everything you are, right now....

Good point.

In that case, maybe the way to embody unconditional love in martial arts is by embodying in life in general, then when you become good at that, it'll spill over into your training, into your competition and into how you interact with your martial art community or club. Both during training and outside.

[Asten]

I've had finals and computer issues, but reply coming!

Thanks for all the great responses.