A good reason to go vegan

[joey m]

You're giving a future death sentence (cancer) to those who are obese at the moment due to their past dietary lifestyle.

No, this is incorrect. I am saying that as we age, we have to be more aggressive in our dietary modifications. Amazing turnarounds can still occur, but we can't expect small dietary modifications to make much of a difference, particularly as we get more advanced in our years. I wonder why you always misconstrue what I write? Is it because you don't understand me, is it because you are not a particularly good listener, or do you do it willfully? Either way, it will make your arguments more credible if you take what I say at face value rather than putting a fictionalized spin on it.

Best,
Joey

[joey m]

Adrienne,

You inspire with your patience and obvious kindness of tone. I have much respect for that!

Best,
Joey

[escapee]

Some of what you posted holds water, but most does not. Your condemnation of fruits and vegetables makes little sense when you view the vast majority of studies out there, and it makes little sense even in light of some of the studies you posted.

When a scientist make a discovery that water has little impact on cancer, what to you do do? Avoid water because it doesnt prevent cancer ? No Joey, You dont avoid water because it still gives you other benefits. Those studies should not dissuade anyone from taking vege and fruit moderately. What i was trying to point out is when it comes to total cancer prevention . Fruit and vege are basically useless. Again, You've purposely twisted my intention to sound like i condemned Vege and fruit eternally where i was just showing the you the dissapointing facts supported real scientific data.

[escapee]

So neither of these are low fat diets, and even if they were, low fat dieting isn't the key to longevity.

It's good that you realized this.

Now, if they had increased fruit and vegetable servings by 5 a day, I think we would have a very different study. Increasing fruits and vegetables by one serving combined, when you are talking about post-menopausal women is really nothing.

You think ? I think there will be more dissapointment. 4 large studies and a couple more that i have just discovered on other journal shows the same dissapointing results. What more can you say ?

All these studies suggest that we need to look beyond fruits and vege when it comes to total cancer prevention. There is no reason to stick to something that do not work.

[joey m]

Escapee -- You are stubborn about nutrition which only exacerbates your ignorance on the subject.

You are now posting legitimate studies (which I applaud). The next step for you will be to try and understand them -- I fear this will take you a while. Let me suggest that you stop reading so much from your junk science gurus (Weston Price Foundation and Dr. Mercola), and spend more time reading and understanding the actual studies. This will help you to have people take your posts seriously.

Best,
Joey

[escapee]

I wonder why you always misconstrue what I write? Is it because you don't understand me, is it because you are not a particularly good listener, or do you do it willfully?

I did not miscontrue what you write . It's just that you made a weak point to to address the dissapointing conclusion of the study.

[escapee]

You are now posting legitimate studies (which I applaud). The next step for you will be to try and understand them -- I fear this will take you a while. Let me suggest that you stop reading so much from your junk science gurus (Weston Price Foundation and Dr. Mercola), and spend more time reading and understanding the actual studies. This will help you to have people take your posts seriously.

Joey, those guys are just a health messengers or marketers. They write their articles based on Journals like Jama, New England journal, Oxford journal and etc.

Example : Another Diabetic Drug Disaster

I admit they are not perfect, but calling them junk science ? come on Joey ..they are far from it . The low grain diet has pulled me out of hell .

[joey m]

They are junk science! The fact that they also happen to preach certain obvious truths like avoiding refined foods doesn't excuse the rest of the myths they preach. I can't think of a single health expert who doesn't recommend avoiding refined foods. The worst part is they use scare tactics and misinterpret studies to support their points. No excuse for that! Further, they read the study and interpret it -- usually with an agenda. If you are just a second hand source for their misinterpretations, your information will necessarily be very poor.

It's just that you made a weak point to to address the dissapointing conclusion of the study.

No, it is a strong and important point. If you don't think so, you need to reread the study I'm referring to (or I'm guessing, read the study all the way through for the first time). If all you are doing is reading the conclusions or summaries of these studies, then you are missing what is really going on.

Again, I encourage you to spend more time thinking through your theories, and more time actually reading the studies. It can only help you to become more informed -- because many of the things you state on these forums are without scientific merit.

Best,
Joey

[Isis Kali]

Originally Posted by joey m

Escapee -- You are stubborn about nutrition which only exacerbates your ignorance on the subject.

You are now posting legitimate studies (which I applaud). The next step for you will be to try and understand them -- I fear this will take you a while. Let me suggest that you stop reading so much from your junk science gurus (Weston Price Foundation and Dr. Mercola), and spend more time reading and understanding the actual studies. This will help you to have people take your posts seriously.

Best,
Joey

Hmmm. Nice side dish of condescension there.

I never, ever poke my head into the middle of flamewars, but it's bringing the tone of the whole place down to see a forum member calling another thick headed, ignorant, slow, and what-have-you.

You- 80+ posts.
Escapee- 560+ posts. In many different sections. All helpful and supportive, not biting and cutting.

I'm leaving this topic- heck, this whole section- and not looking back.

Oh, and yay, cheeseburgers (coming from an ex asst. gym manager and almost PT).

No one...and I mean NO ONE...here who is vegan, or otherwise, is living a better life, or existing on a more exalted, clean, virtuous plane of existence than anyone else. We all live. We will all die. Your self-aggrandizement and judgement get you nowhere. I don't care a fig what the hell you eat. I'd dig you out of a burning car wreck regardless, but you see as if saving the life of a meat-eater is akin to rescuing a heretic.

Get over yourselves.

[/rant]

[JiriNovotny]

Before flaming again, I recommend everyone to read the following blog post by Steve Pavlina:
Health Studies Are Worthless To Those Who Care About Health

[joey m]

There are some good points that Steve makes in that article, and some I disagree with. First, I wholeheartedly agree that studies have their limits. This is why it is important to read every word of the study (not just the author's conclusions) to understand what really happened in the study. This will allow you to determine if it was a good study or a bad study, and to what extent the study's results mean what they are supposed to mean. So, it is important to take the study and truly understand it. This takes time and energy as well as a good working knowledge of how good studies should be performed. Never trust popular media accounts of what occurred in a study -- they basically never get it right.

But it sounds as if Steve is actually saying health studies are worthless. I think this takes it too far. Studies are incredibly helpful at understanding certain variables that are very important for health. While you may be able to decide you feel better eating certain foods, it is still very helpful to know which foods have which properties. It may not be self-evident through personal experimentation that cruciferous vegetables are filled with anti-carcinogenic components. It may not be obvious that what people lack in northern hemispheres is ideal blood levels of Vitamin D, or that vegans tend to have lower levels of DHA. It may not be clear that steaming is a better way of cooking than baking or barbequeing because of compound formations like acrylamides. The list goes on and on.

The key isn't to ignore studies because they are flawed, but to take the pearls of wisdom found in them and disregard the waste. Many studies have almost nothing to offer, while others are marvelous. Most are middle of the road and have something to offer, and much to disregard. When you read enough studies, it becomes easier (along with personal experience) to truly form a formidable base of nutritional knowledge. I think not reading the studies is taking the easy way out -- not the other way around as Steve suggested. The truly tough road is to use personal experience as well as learning from others (including studies).

Best,
Joey