We're meant to eat meat because our elbows bend towards our bodies.

[momo3bur]

Just wanted to point out while I was looking at different characteristics of herbivore, omnivore, carnivore/predator, prey animals I noticed that MANY herd animals/herbivores have front legs in which the joint bends outward, away from the body:

Horse:

http://0.tqn.com/d/horses/1/0/e/2/saddlestep8.jpg
and a better example...geez, ignore those awful hooves! Poor horsie!
http://equus.thomases.org/wp-content/brokenknee.JPG

Goat:

http://0.tqn.com/w/experts/Goats-348...e-kid-legs.jpg

Carnivores and omnivores seem to have elbow joints that bend in towards the body:

Sloth (omnivore)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Oayz1CI0dk...20052small.jpg

Squirrel (omnivore)
http://29.media.tumblr.com/dDbZF4lJr...PePGo1_400.jpg

Wolf
http://www.hikingwithchuck.com/image...nyGAChehaw.jpg

Mountain Lion
http://www.chasingmist.com/wp/wp-con...ntain-lion.gif

Of course, these aren't all the animals in these categories, but almost every mammal that I can think of (other than a few rodent animals like rabits, ginuea pigs, etc., I think they're herbivores) seem to have these characteristics if they fall into these categories.

Eh...EH? WHAT? Does Mo have way too much time on her hands or do you think I may be on to something?

Perhaps we were really meant to be omnivores afterall and these inward bending elbows that will allow us pull big hunks of in-bone meat to our faces and gnaw on them as opposed to outward bending elbows which obviously make it much easier access to grass without falling forward and losing balance are yet another sign? EHHEHHHHEEHHHHH?

Has the secret always been in...OUR ELBOWS!!!!!!!?

[JDuff]

It's quite an interesting idea.

However, if we have evolved to be omnivores, that doesn't mean we are "meant" to eat meat. What we ought to do is determined by ethics or practical reasoning (means to achieving ends). As we can now reason effectively with a great deal of information, we don't necessarily have to follow the blind dictates of evolution.

What it may tell us, is that we evolved as omnivores. But we are not necessarily meant to do exactly what we used to do.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by JDuff

It's quite an interesting idea.

However, if we have evolved to be omnivores, that doesn't mean we are "meant" to eat meat. What we ought to do is determined by ethics or practical reasoning (means to achieving ends). As we can now reason effectively with a great deal of information, we don't necessarily have to follow the blind dictates of evolution.

What it may tell us, is that we evolved as omnivores. But we are not necessarily meant to do exactly what we used to do.

That's a very good point! I guess I should've said, "Is this a sign that our bodies are engineered to eat meat."

Of course we don't have to eat meat, and thankfully we have the option now to go whichever way we choose. I personally feel it is natural and that our body having so many characteristics of an omnivore is a good indication that we are built to endure it, though.

I guess what I'm saying is if we were left with nothing and forced to live in the wild, I believe our bodies are made for meat and plant consumption. We're built for it. If there was no way to get tofu, soy milk, protein supplements, vitamin B-12 shots, etc., we might have to eat meat for our own health.

[Winter Goddess]

Setting religious reasons aside, people today are vegan/vegetarian because they have the comfort to be so, just as they eat meat and purchase their produce in shops (rather than grow it on their own) because they have the comfort to be so. From our teeth to our bodies to the fact we can ♥♥♥♥♥ without our stomachs exploding from eating meat, we have more than enough sufficient evidence that our bodies can indeed handle it.

Is it the best thing for us? That's a whole different debate. I don't think there's 1 type of foodism that will suit 100% of the human population.

I'm just happy I live in an era where my food choices are exactly that - choices.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Winter Goddess

Setting religious reasons aside, people today are vegan/vegetarian because they have the comfort to be so, just as they eat meat and purchase their produce in shops (rather than grow it on their own) because they have the comfort to be so. From our teeth to our bodies to the fact we can ♥♥♥♥♥ without our stomachs exploding from eating meat, we have more than enough sufficient evidence that our bodies can indeed handle it.

Is it the best thing for us? That's a whole different debate. I don't think there's 1 type of foodism that will suit 100% of the human population.

I'm just happy I live in an era where my food choices are exactly that - choices.

Very true. I'm happy to be here, too. I love that when I want a pomegranate, I can simply fetch it out of a box at the grocery store. It even came with instructions on how to open it!

I'm not sure what would be best for us. We have too many outside and unhealthy influences in our diet now due to fast food industry, mass production of foods and meats, etc., to really judge what is best for us anymore if we are basing our diet simply one what we "would" eat if we were not allowed all of these choices (meaning, what our body has been engineered to consume for survival as opposed to comfort or choice).

It's awesome that we can choose! It really is. What I'm curious about, however, is what we are made to eat. For example, each species of animal has a fairly cut and dry diet that suits their bodies best. Each food they eat benefits them in some way and nature has arranged it that way.

I feel like we may have lost that overtime. I wonder sometimes if we really have any idea of what nature actually intended for our bodies. I suspect that the only way to really find out would be to have all our conveniences taken away from us and be forced to live from the land and nature for a few generations and somehow losing knowledge of modern practices in food.

So, if we were wild animals, what would we eat?

Quite frankly, I just noticed the thing about the leg joints in these animals and thought it was kind of neat. Also, it seems most herd animals have back legs with a knee that bends outward as well. It's almost as if prey animals and herd animals have had their front and back legs switched around. Herd animals have elbows in the back and knees in the front! hehe.

[momo3bur]

BTW, I just want to add that this was supposed to be a playful but inquisitive thread. I'm not judging anyone on ethics or choices here.

I feel like we are and have the right to choose exactly what we eat. I enjoy meat, but I don't eat a lot of it. I have no problems with people who are vegetarian or vegan. I actually find it a very honorable thing to stick to your morals in such a way.

My belief is that we are all meant to work together in this world. Kind of like the "circle of life" from the Lion King, if you will! The antelope eat the grass, the lion eat the antelope, then when the lion dies, he becomes the earth and the antelope eats him. I find nothing wrong with consumption of animals because I feel like we are just another animal doing as we were intended to as a species.

However, I do not like the meat industry. I do not like the way animals are slaughtered in mass and I do not like the treatment of these animals while they're living. My family actually raises most of our meat ourselves and I feel much better about eating them than I do buying meat from the grocery store. We also only eat it about 2 or 3 times a week because, quite honestly, my doc said people really don't need to consume so much of it and I've followed her advice and watched mine and my husband's health improve drastically.

So anyway, my point is I am not trying to raise an argument about whether or not it's "right" to eat meat, yet curious about the way our bodies are built and wondering if this "elbow" question is just another piece of evidence pointing to the fact that our bodies, for survival as a wild and natural being, are engineered to consume meat.

[newkaren]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

However, I do not like the meat industry. I do not like the way animals are slaughtered in mass and I do not like the treatment of these animals while they're living. My family actually raises most of our meat ourselves and I feel much better about eating them than I do buying meat from the grocery store. We also only eat it about 2 or 3 times a week because, quite honestly, my doc said people really don't need to consume so much of it and I've followed her advice and watched mine and my husband's health improve drastically.

We buy all our beef from a local farmer. Its grass feed, hormone free, and only given antibiotics if they should get sick. The animals spend their lives in a pasture, grazing.

I think it does make a difference in both my spiritual and physical health.

[ZephyrusX]

Yes, I agree. *sticks a fork into the neighbour*

As for elbows, I bet my cat is jealous of the fact that I have the thumbs to grip a fork and knife and the elbows to bring that fork to my mouth. All she can do is gnaw dumbly at the neighbour. I have tools!

...

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I feel like we are and have the right to choose exactly what we eat. I enjoy meat, but I don't eat a lot of it. I have no problems with people who are vegetarian or vegan. I actually find it a very honorable thing to stick to your morals in such a way.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Yes, I agree. *sticks a fork into the neighbour*

As for elbows, I bet my cat is jealous of the fact that I have the thumbs to grip a fork and knife and the elbows to bring that fork to my mouth. All she can do is gnaw dumbly at the neighbour. I have tools!

...

Oh wow! You should really try Sweet Baby Ray's raspberry chipotle BBQ sauce. OMG. It does wonders for chicken, I could only imagine what it would do for neighbors.

EDIT: Made sure to bold "think" in this sentence as I could very possibly be and am quite likely wrong.

LOL! Yep, I think omnivores seemed to have been the only animals lucky enough to get fingers AND thumbs or thumb-like digits, more or less. Haha (points finger at cat)!!!

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

Oh wow! You should really try Sweet Baby Ray's raspberry chipotle BBQ sauce. OMG. It does wonders for chicken, I could only imagine what it would do for neighbors.

EDIT: Made sure to bold "think" in this sentence as I could very possibly be and am quite likely wrong.

LOL! Yep, I think omnivores seemed to have been the only animals lucky enough to get fingers AND thumbs or thumb-like digits, more or less. Haha (points finger at cat)!!!

nope not just omnivores.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

nope not just omnivores.

who else? That's a serious question.

EDIT: Ok, I used my brain (Google) instead of forcing you to answer this. LOL. Sorry.

Koalas have thumbs and they are herbivores. YAY! Found one.

I still don't think there are carnivores with actual functional thumbs, though. I'm pretty sure that thumbs are only seen in some herbivores and many omnivores. Not sure though. Will look that up also.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

who else? That's a serious question.

The Stephen Roberts Foundation: Other animals with opposable thumbs (Wikipedia)

[ZephyrusX]

Oh! Look at all the neat animals!

The Aye-Aye - YouTube

Aye-Aye's have long middle fingers. Besides fingering plants, I wonder if they ever tell each other off with those things?

Originally Posted by russianrocket

The Stephen Roberts Foundation: Other animals with opposable thumbs (Wikipedia)

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

The Stephen Roberts Foundation: Other animals with opposable thumbs (Wikipedia)

Thank you, RR! I do have to say that MOST of those animals are omnivores, but I am surprised to learn now that gorillas are herbivores! I always assumed they were omnivores like chimps and most apes.

So maybe we can say that many, if not most, animals with actual usable opposable thumbs are omnivores or herbivores. I'm not sure about carnivores, although I expect that number to be very low. I will look that up tomorrow.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Oh! Look at all the neat animals!

The Aye-Aye - YouTube

Aye-Aye's have long middle fingers. Besides fingering plants, I wonder if they ever tell each other off with those things?

OMG...my "AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW W" meter so just hit major double digits! It's like a mixture between a cat and a lemur and a mouse! And so CUTE with his little long fingers and little teeny teeth sticking out of his mouth. AWWWWWWWWW!!!!! <3

I wonder if they're the type of animals to tantalize you with cuteness then rip your face off if you get too close?

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by newkaren

We buy all our beef from a local farmer. Its grass feed, hormone free, and only given antibiotics if they should get sick. The animals spend their lives in a pasture, grazing.

I think it does make a difference in both my spiritual and physical health.

I feel very much the same way. I have no problems eating animals, but I do not want to advocate mistreating them. We're all meant to die and be eaten eventually anyway, but we're all entitled to living a healthy, happy life while we're here. Our cows are always treated like family members, well, family members that live outside and then we eat...um...yeah. LOL. We actually have a goat right now that we got to breed and possibly eat, but instead she's become a family pet. I just can't bare to see little Snowflake turn into a party roast.

[firenexx]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

If there was no way to get tofu, soy milk, protein supplements, vitamin B-12 shots, etc., we might have to eat meat for our own health.

???

Tofu, soy milk, and protein supplements will make many people less healthy.
The issues with tofu are well-documented and it should not be a staple of anyone's diet, whether or not they eat meat. Same with soy milk.
Protein supplements are ridiculous because it has been shown that as long as you eat a sufficient amount of food, you get protein (it is virtually impossible to have a protein "deficiency.") It should be noted that bodybuilders are interested in getting more protein.

Vitamin B12 shots or supplements are usually harmful. Why? Most people go for the cheapest form with the longest shelf life, and that includes doctors who administer shots. This means they use cyanocobalamin, which has very limited availability for higher-order organisms such as ourselves. Doctors as early as the 1950s were writing letters to medical institutions, urging them to stop using cyanocobalamin for B12 supplementation. It has to be converted into methylcobalamin to be used by the body, and it releases its bound cyanide molecule in the process. Its limited availability means that it competes with active forms such as methyl- and deoxyadenosylcobalamin, decreasing their absorption. For this and other reasons, many believe that supplementation with cyanocobalamin is harmful. As for eating meat, meat eaters have a very significant risk for B12 deficiency. Vegetarians have a higher risk, but overall problem is not meat vs. no meat, it is a threefold issue between availability of trace element cobalt in depleted crop soils, processing and cooking of foods, and health of microorganisms in the body responsible for synthesizing B12 from cobalt.

I should also mention that the B12 issue is made even more complicated because many of the commercial tests used in food products indicate inactive analogues as well as active forms, which makes the B12 listing on most nutrition labels to be completely useless. For instance, the most accurate testing methods will say that liver actually contains a negligible amount. What? Liver is supposed to be one of the highest sources of B12? Well, if the cow was raised on grass that was grown in soil that had trace cobalt, it would have B12 in the liver. But the cow was raised on grain that was grown in depleted, caked soil, and also you cooked the liver so *zap* there goes all the B12. Also you drink alcohol, smoke, drink cold beverages or routinely eat food that is charred, so the microorganisms in your throat and/or ileum that synthesize it are too disgruntled to synthesize any. Headache yet? I profusely apologise for going on this tangent, by the way.

Yada yada yada. I didn't mean to get all debate-like here; I just wanted to softly note that it is a common but mistaken belief that vegetarians need the following things for health:
Soy milk
Tofu
Protein supplements
B12 shots (cyanocobalamin in the massive doses that are required to actually make a difference)
In fact, these things can make one less healthy.

To get more into the general topic, my belief is that we aren't necessarily "meant" to eat or not eat one thing or another - our bodies are marvelous machines and we can pick and choose to a certain extent and based on necessity or circumstance. (It would be hard for an Inuit to find collard greens.) The whole anatomy thing always confuses me - whether it's teeth, skull shape, jaw, arms, hands, opposable thumbs, whatever - it just gets you into this overlapping flowchart of omnivores have this and carnivores have that but some herbivores have that, and then there's the unrelated traits, and it's just too much to draw any accurate conclusions.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by firenexx

???

Tofu, soy milk, and protein supplements will make many people less healthy.
The issues with tofu are well-documented and it should not be a staple of anyone's diet, whether or not they eat meat. Same with soy milk.
Protein supplements are ridiculous because it has been shown that as long as you eat a sufficient amount of food, you get protein (it is virtually impossible to have a protein "deficiency.") It should be noted that bodybuilders are interested in getting more protein.

Vitamin B12 shots or supplements are usually harmful. Why? Most people go for the cheapest form with the longest shelf life, and that includes doctors who administer shots. This means they use cyanocobalamin, which has very limited availability for higher-order organisms such as ourselves. Doctors as early as the 1950s were writing letters to medical institutions, urging them to stop using cyanocobalamin for B12 supplementation. It has to be converted into methylcobalamin to be used by the body, and it releases its bound cyanide molecule in the process. Its limited availability means that it competes with active forms such as methyl- and deoxyadenosylcobalamin, decreasing their absorption. For this and other reasons, many believe that supplementation with cyanocobalamin is harmful. As for eating meat, meat eaters have a very significant risk for B12 deficiency. Vegetarians have a higher risk, but overall problem is not meat vs. no meat, it is a threefold issue between availability of trace element cobalt in depleted crop soils, processing and cooking of foods, and health of microorganisms in the body responsible for synthesizing B12 from cobalt.

I should also mention that the B12 issue is made even more complicated because many of the commercial tests used in food products indicate inactive analogues as well as active forms, which makes the B12 listing on most nutrition labels to be completely useless. For instance, the most accurate testing methods will say that liver actually contains a negligible amount. What? Liver is supposed to be one of the highest sources of B12? Well, if the cow was raised on grass that was grown in soil that had trace cobalt, it would have B12 in the liver. But the cow was raised on grain that was grown in depleted, caked soil, and also you cooked the liver so *zap* there goes all the B12. Also you drink alcohol, smoke, drink cold beverages or routinely eat food that is charred, so the microorganisms in your throat and/or ileum that synthesize it are too disgruntled to synthesize any. Headache yet? I profusely apologise for going on this tangent, by the way.

Yada yada yada. I didn't mean to get all debate-like here; I just wanted to softly note that it is a common but mistaken belief that vegetarians need the following things for health:
Soy milk
Tofu
Protein supplements
B12 shots (cyanocobalamin in the massive doses that are required to actually make a difference)
In fact, these things can make one less healthy.

To get more into the general topic, my belief is that we aren't necessarily "meant" to eat or not eat one thing or another - our bodies are marvelous machines and we can pick and choose to a certain extent and based on necessity or circumstance. (It would be hard for an Inuit to find collard greens.) The whole anatomy thing always confuses me - whether it's teeth, skull shape, jaw, arms, hands, opposable thumbs, whatever - it just gets you into this overlapping flowchart of omnivores have this and carnivores have that but some herbivores have that, and then there's the unrelated traits, and it's just too much to draw any accurate conclusions.

Well thank you, and I'm sorry if I offended. It really was meant to be playful. You don't have to defend yourself to me. I have no problems with anyone else's eating habits at all, I'm just wondering if the way our elbows are made is another piece of evidence that points to the fact that we were engineered to eat meat since that seems to be a point of interest for some people.

That's all. It was more playful than anything else.

[medaille]

When you look at the horses front legs, they operate in much the same way as a human arm. If you look at the first picture with the lady holding the leg of the horse, she is holding onto the "foot" or "palm" of the horse. Below her hand is the joints for the "toes" or "fingers" and above her hand is the joints for the "ankles" or "wrists." The leg then moves to the right where you find the "Elbow" or "Knee" joint. The leg goes up and the "shoulder" joint is somewhere around the neck or the saddle.

In fact you can move your arm into the same position as the horses front legs.

[ScottCofer]

Interesting theory ... never considered that angle before. I've gone back and forth many times throughout my life regarding the meat vs. vegan debate.

My dilemma is this ... my heart loves the idea of subsisting totally on a vegetarian diet. However, invariably I feel like complete junk after about a week. Maybe it's some type of "adjustment period" ... not sure ... but for now I stick with eating meat just once per day and I feel great.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by medaille

When you look at the horses front legs, they operate in much the same way as a human arm. If you look at the first picture with the lady holding the leg of the horse, she is holding onto the "foot" or "palm" of the horse. Below her hand is the joints for the "toes" or "fingers" and above her hand is the joints for the "ankles" or "wrists." The leg then moves to the right where you find the "Elbow" or "Knee" joint. The leg goes up and the "shoulder" joint is somewhere around the neck or the saddle.

In fact you can move your arm into the same position as the horses front legs.

Yeah, that's not the best picture to demonstrate what I'm tyring to show here, but it's no big deal because this was mostly playful.

Actually, though, to get technical about it, a horses front limbs have an extra joint that operates like a knee. They do bed inward, toward their bodies. It would be like shoulder, elbow, knee, wrist. If you take a look at carnivores and most omnivores, we are missing that knee in the front limbs.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by ScottCofer

Interesting theory ... never considered that angle before. I've gone back and forth many times throughout my life regarding the meat vs. vegan debate.

My dilemma is this ... my heart loves the idea of subsisting totally on a vegetarian diet. However, invariably I feel like complete junk after about a week. Maybe it's some type of "adjustment period" ... not sure ... but for now I stick with eating meat just once per day and I feel great.

I think it's wonderful that you let your body tell you what you need! That's what this is all about and quite frankly, it seems to be the definition of omnivore.

An omnivore is designed to change it's diet with seasons and nutritional needs, but have almost any food, whether meat or herbi diet, allowable to our bodies. In other words, we are designed to survive on almost anything and it not kill us.

It's such a wonderful thing that we live in times that we're allowed to choose these things based on morals, activities, etc., but luckily if push ever did come to shove, we are blessed with bodies that can withstand almost anything dietwise. I feel like that is highly evident in not only our history but the way our bodies are shaped and operate.

For everyone: Again, this was never meant as a moral discussion. I'm a big time animal lover, so it always warms my heart that there are people who are willing to change their entire life in such a way to protect those animals that are slaughtered and cruely raised. I've just noticed before that there seems to be some kind of argument as to whether we were "built" to eat meat or not. Obviously the answer is YES, we are built to withstand it, or we would probably die or become very ill if we did consume it.