thread split: Sickly veg*n phenomenon?

[Agota]

* thread split from Lightworkers, Vegetarianism, Ethics and Smartphones *

I was a vegetarian, I recently became omnivore for few months for health reasons. I can't say at the moment whether I stay omnivore or go back to vegetarianism, I think most likely I'll go back to being vegetarian once I'll go travelling in December and then probably will stay on a mostly vegetarian diet with occasional organic meat meal. I was a vegetarian mostly for ethical reasons, now the health reasons would add as well since I wasn't impressed with what you can find in non-organic meat. I also have to note that the ethical reasons were related with a cruel factory farming and they almost disappear when we are speaking about organic meat which comes from an animal that was kept in very good conditions and died instantly and painlessly (also, the health reasons fade when we are talking about really good organic meat)..

[Andrew Gubb]

Is your blood pressure low? One friend told me that she couldn't maintain a veggie diet because her blood pressure dropped too low because of it. I have since wondered if all people who can't maintain a veggie diet have this issue.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Is your blood pressure low? One friend told me that she couldn't maintain a veggie diet because her blood pressure dropped too low because of it. I have since wondered if all people who can't maintain a veggie diet have this issue.

I think it might be lower than normal, but it's not the reason.

My health was really weak for the last year and a half: I constantly felt tired and cold and it was really bad during the winter time because it would be cold for me all the time. This summer, it was cold for me when it was 23 degrees of Celcius. I decided that something is seriously off and clearly my diet isn't working the way it's supposed to.I have also started to feel huge craving for meat, which was weird because I've never had this craving during my two years of being vegetarian. My teacher has told me to start eating meat half a year ago, I didn't listen, now I realized that I should do so in order to regain strength and warmth. In general, I believe I can maintain a veggie diet, it's simply that at this certain point it seems that I need meat

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think it might be lower than normal, but it's not the reason.

My health was really weak for the last year and a half: I constantly felt tired and cold and it was really bad during the winter time because it would be cold for me all the time. This summer, it was cold for me when it was 23 degrees of Celcius. I decided that something is seriously off and clearly my diet isn't working the way it's supposed to.I have also started to feel huge craving for meat, which was weird because I've never had this craving during my two years of being vegetarian. My teacher has told me to start eating meat half a year ago, I didn't listen, now I realized that I should do so in order to regain strength and warmth. In general, I believe I can maintain a veggie diet, it's simply that at this certain point it seems that I need meat

Whatever feels right and works for you

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Agota

I think it might be lower than normal, but it's not the reason.

My health was really weak for the last year and a half: I constantly felt tired and cold and it was really bad during the winter time because it would be cold for me all the time. This summer, it was cold for me when it was 23 degrees of Celcius. I decided that something is seriously off and clearly my diet isn't working the way it's supposed to.I have also started to feel huge craving for meat, which was weird because I've never had this craving during my two years of being vegetarian. My teacher has told me to start eating meat half a year ago, I didn't listen, now I realized that I should do so in order to regain strength and warmth. In general, I believe I can maintain a veggie diet, it's simply that at this certain point it seems that I need meat

I was curious to see how eating meat was going for you Agota?

I've known vegos who were always exhausted, probably for the same reason as you. I also suspect that some vegos really crave meat, but won't admit it to themselves or anyone else for obvious reasons.

[Agota]

I've only started to eat meat, so it's too early to tell the difference, but in general I get a good feeling of fire element getting back to balance when eating meat, which basically means that I immediately start to feel a little bit warmer when I eat meat. I'll soon start eating chicken or beef every day or every other day or so, then I'll be able to actually evaluate the difference. I think I'll write a blog post once my omnivore trial is over

When it comes to the general lack of energy and feeling cold all the time, the presence or absence of meat in my diet definitely wasn't the main reason for that: I was depressed for those two years and my mind was seriously messed up, so I'd waste loads of energy on negative thoughts and emotions or mental breakdowns. You can't really be healthy when you're depressed or angry most of the time since you lose loads of energy, so now once I'm done with the non-senses, I'm focusing on rebuilding my health, both mental and physical. This includes sleeping well, meditations, exercising, eating meat, dressing up as warm as I can, etc. This is my personal situation.

When it comes to vegetarians, yeah, there really is something with most vegetarians I meet: they're usually pale and really don't seem to have much energy. This might have something to do with the lack of the fire element in the body, since meat is one of the most "firy" foods and people usually don't consciously replace it, whether nutritionally or through some other means. I think I know only one person who is a vegan, but seems to be very well balanced: he's calm and peaceful, but has loads of energy.

The simpler explanation might very well be that many vegetarians don't have a healthy diet. I mean, there's some misconception floating around that if you're vegetarian, you eat healthy, but that's just not the way it is. I definitely wasn't eating healthy, since my nutrition mostly consisted of pasta,rice and potatoes, which eaten three times a day with minimum of veg and no fruits probably isn't the most balanced nutrition ever. This is what happens with many vegetarians and it only gets worse if they eat loads of junk and consume a lot of sugar. It's not a problem with presence or absence of meat, it's a problem with an unbalanced diet.

People, apologies for derailing a thread

[Andrew Gubb]

When it comes to vegetarians, yeah, there really is something with most vegetarians I meet: they're usually pale and really don't seem to have much energy. This might have something to do with the lack of the fire element in the body, since meat is one of the most "firy" foods and people usually don't consciously replace it, whether nutritionally or through some other means. I think I know only one person who is a vegan, but seems to be very well balanced: he's calm and peaceful, but has loads of energy.

It's wierd; I've heard these descriptions myself but of the many vegans I know, not one fits the bill. Maybe I'm the least energetic of the vegans I know but then when I was omnivore I went through a period of sleeping 12+ hours per day (depression related).

I wonder if each person sees what their expectations lead them to see.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

It's wierd; I've heard these descriptions myself but of the many vegans I know, not one fits the bill. Maybe I'm the least energetic of the vegans I know but then when I was omnivore I went through a period of sleeping 12+ hours per day (depression related).

I wonder if each person sees what their expectations lead them to see.

I see it too although when I met Steve he looked quite healthy and energetic. He's probably the only one that stood out looking healthy to me on a strictly vegetarian or vegan diet.

Aren't you saying here that you were sleeping 12+ hours a day from depression and not from meat?

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

Aren't you saying here that you were sleeping 12+ hours a day from depression and not from meat?

Yes, that's the thing. I used to sleep that much; now I'm much better, even though now I'm vegan; if veganism was going to make me lower in energy, then I shouldn't have expected that improvement.

I wonder if all the sickly vegans are in the USA. I haven't seen a single one here in Spain.

Addition: maybe the sickly vegan phenomenon comes from eating disorders. Eating disorders might coincide with veganism some times - not because the diet is bad but because eating disordered people are more likely to latch onto an alternative diet (though, it should be stressed, not for the right reasons). That might explain the USA-but-not-Europe thing too. From what I understand the USA as a culture is more obsessed about appearences, and I'd expect that to result in more eating disorders.

Addition Addition: Can a mod make the "Sickly Vegan Phenomenon" a separate thread?

[Agota]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Yes, that's the thing. I used to sleep that much; now I'm much better, even though now I'm vegan; if veganism was going to make me lower in energy, then I shouldn't have expected that improvement.

I wonder if all the sickly vegans are in the USA. I haven't seen a single one here in Spain.

There aren't many vegans in Lithuania, but the vegetarians usually don't look strong and healthy. Again, I don't think this is caused by a presence or absence of meat/animal products: I think it's all about unbalanced lifestyle and nutrition is only a part of it

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Yes, that's the thing. I used to sleep that much; now I'm much better, even though now I'm vegan; if veganism was going to make me lower in energy, then I shouldn't have expected that improvement.

I wonder if all the sickly vegans are in the USA. I haven't seen a single one here in Spain.

Addition: maybe the sickly vegan phenomenon comes from eating disorders. Eating disorders might coincide with veganism some times - not because the diet is bad but because eating disordered people are more likely to latch onto an alternative diet (though, it should be stressed, not for the right reasons). That might explain the USA-but-not-Europe thing too. From what I understand the USA as a culture is more obsessed about appearences, and I'd expect that to result in more eating disorders.

Addition Addition: Can a mod make the "Sickly Vegan Phenomenon" a separate thread?

Yes, most of the vegetarians or vegans I run into are usually either give me the impression they're trying to lose weight and look good (superficial types) or are snooty upper class types looking for another notch on their belt to justify looking down on others. Steve didn't give me that impression at all and again, I haven't run into a big enough cross sample of vegans or vegetarians to really make any authoritative statements about either as a whole.

[russianrocket]

My brother is one of those sickly looking vegetarians. Skinny as a rail, and pale as umm, what ever is pale? I haven't bothered too much as far as inquiring his motives.

[elucidate]

I've only met three healthy looking vegans and about 3 healthy looking vegetarians, and they even had a bit too much fat on them (the vegans), from all the fried options.

One of them is kinda off the planet now though...the last time I saw a picture of her she looked terrible, and the last time I spoke to her she was convinced men in black were after her and her boyfriend and that "shaman spiders from another dimension" were crawling all over her in the night. This woman did NOT take drugs either.

Nearly everyone else I've seen in this lifestyle is emaciated, pale and sickly and overly sensitive.

When I decided to wean off meat it was a process that took about 10 years all in all, and I cut back on my meat consumption slowly, because instinctively I knew it would be a bad thing for my body, which was so used to digesting meat, to be suddenly deprived of what it is used to and the rythmn, which I have said to one or two vegos in the past, and received sneers and adamant denials that this is true...however, I listen to my body and this is what it told me. Maybe it's just me though?

I think it's a factor worth considering though, because most vegos will just stop eating meat...and it doesn't give their system enough of a chance to adapt to the change. This can cause problems I believe.

I just think it's not all about what you are eating, but what your body is used to digesting. It can go into shock if it is deprived of meat, if the person has eaten meat for most of their life...kinda the way the brain will flip out if a person suddenly stops taking anti-psychotic medication or the like.

[ChrisGinsburg]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I've only met three healthy looking vegans and about 3 healthy looking vegetarians, and they even had a bit too much fat on them (the vegans), from all the fried options.

One of them is kinda off the planet now though...the last time I saw a picture of her she looked terrible, and the last time I spoke to her she was convinced men in black were after her and her boyfriend and that "shaman spiders from another dimension" were crawling all over her in the night. This woman did NOT take drugs either.

Nearly everyone else I've seen in this lifestyle is emaciated, pale and sickly and overly sensitive.

When I decided to wean off meat it was a process that took about 10 years all in all, and I cut back on my meat consumption slowly, because instinctively I knew it would be a bad thing for my body, which was so used to digesting meat, to be suddenly deprived of what it is used to and the rythmn, which I have said to one or two vegos in the past, and received sneers and adamant denials that this is true...however, I listen to my body and this is what it told me. Maybe it's just me though?

I think it's a factor worth considering though, because most vegos will just stop eating meat...and it doesn't give their system enough of a chance to adapt to the change. This can cause problems I believe.

I just think it's not all about what you are eating, but what your body is used to digesting. It can go into shock if it is deprived of meat, if the person has eaten meat for most of their life...kinda the way the brain will flip out if a person suddenly stops taking anti-psychotic medication or the like.

I think most people and even people who consider themselves experts don't have a firm grasp on all the nutrients, micro-nutrients and benefits meat was providing for them. When they stop eating meat they may replace some of those nutrients and benefits meat was providing but there may likely be dozens if not hundreds of gaping nutritional holes being filled. Science has already shown that nutrients come in many forms beyond the alphabet vitamins we are aware of like vitamin D,A,B etc. and the standard minerals.

I caught a very interesting show on netflix recently where they visited people up in northern Russia who still hunt for all their food. They eat pretty much 100% meat and are as healthy as can be. Nobody there ever dies from heart disease by the way and they eat fat by the handful off walruses and other marine animals.

[EvolveWithFlavor]

Just a quick comment...

It's like I am so uninterested in meat now, its strange.

I get the Grass-Fed Steak from Chipotle every once in a while just so I don't go off meat too fast. And it seems to give me a nice kick of energy that I am not experienced enough with Raw Foods yet to understand.

Oh and if I'm out with the family or something, I usually grab a non factory-farmed piece of fish.

[Harmonium]

I was a vegetarian for a few years, my life got easier once I started eating meat again. Mostly only chicken and fish, I like how they're easy to eat; I was having trouble eating at one point and was getting sick when eating anything (possibly unrelated to diet).

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ChrisGinsburg

I think most people and even people who consider themselves experts don't have a firm grasp on all the nutrients, micro-nutrients and benefits meat was providing for them. When they stop eating meat they may replace some of those nutrients and benefits meat was providing but there may likely be dozens if not hundreds of gaping nutritional holes being filled. Science has already shown that nutrients come in many forms beyond the alphabet vitamins we are aware of like vitamin D,A,B etc. and the standard minerals.

Thanks. I was meaning more the way the body gets into a certain rythmn and because meat takes a certain amount more of energy and effort for the digestive process to break it down, it is used to working more. Remove meat from the diet suddenly and it no longer has anything to work with, but it hasn't been given a chance to adapt to the change so the body goes into a sort of shock.

Does this make more sense?

I caught a very interesting show on netflix recently where they visited people up in northern Russia who still hunt for all their food. They eat pretty much 100% meat and are as healthy as can be. Nobody there ever dies from heart disease by the way and they eat fat by the handful off walruses and other marine animals.

Sounds like the Inuit and eskimos, they eat everything raw too, and if they are too far from home when they have hunted the walrus they will simply sleep inside the dead animal and be completely warm due to the blubber and the fat they've just ingested, along with the raw meat.

It is quite fascinating, I agree.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Harmonium

I was a vegetarian for a few years, my life got easier once I started eating meat again. Mostly only chicken and fish, I like how they're easy to eat; I was having trouble eating at one point and was getting sick when eating anything (possibly unrelated to diet).

Chicken or red meat provide an instant 'boost' of grounded energy which I haven't really experienced with just vegies.

I just figure to counter-argue the vego argument about us not needing meat, why would meat contain so many things the body needs if we weren't meant to eat it?

Vegetarian diet will make you feel lighter, yes, and cleaner from the inside, but it just doesn't seem to give that real grounded energy, like meat does...for me anyway. I found myself being really vague and off with the fairies most times.

I couldn't seem to absorb what people were saying to me...mind you, I was also recovering from ptsd, and one of the symptoms is loss of concentration, so it's hard to tell exactly where that stemmed from?

I felt better going back to meat, energy wise, but I do admit, I didn't really want to eat it anymore...the look and consistency and thought of it I had lost all taste for.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Thanks. I was meaning more the way the body gets into a certain rythmn and because meat takes a certain amount more of energy and effort for the digestive process to break it down, it is used to working more. Remove meat from the diet suddenly and it no longer has anything to work with, but it hasn't been given a chance to adapt to the change so the body goes into a sort of shock.

Does this make more sense?



Sounds like the Inuit and eskimos, they eat everything raw too, and if they are too far from home when they have hunted the walrus they will simply sleep inside the dead animal and be completely warm due to the blubber and the fat they've just ingested, along with the raw meat.

It is quite fascinating, I agree.

You say meat takes longer to digest. Longer then what tho?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

You say meat takes longer to digest. Longer then what tho?

Apart from the obvious answer of vegies, which are mostly made up of water, I'm not sure what else to add?

Also, I didn't say it took longer, time wise...more that it takes more energy and effort in the digestion process.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Apart from the obvious answer of vegies, which are mostly made up of water, I'm not sure what else to add?

Also, I didn't say it took longer, time wise...more that it takes more energy and effort in the digestion process.

Veggies aren't that easy to digest. They are water, yes, but also a lot of fiber. A lot of veggies are barely digestible when raw.

You also have to eat a lot more veggies to get enough calories, vs calorie dense animal products. Veggies are also less digestible, as in you get more out of the animal products to use for your body, then you would get out of veggies. I think in the long run, the time, and or energy is a wash.

That's not even taking into account how easy it is to digest raw animal products, as most people aren't willing to do that.

You also have a more satisfied feeling from meat, which will stop you from over eating, and having to eat another meal really quickly. That's not to say that it digests longer tho. They say that meat stays in the intestines longer, but that's actually veggies, due to the cellulose. 100% of meat is digestible, while veggies are not, but are very good for the body specifically because of that fact.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Veggies aren't that easy to digest. They are water, yes, but also a lot of fiber. A lot of veggies are barely digestible when raw.

You also have to eat a lot more veggies to get enough calories, vs calorie dense animal products. Veggies are also less digestible, as in you get more out of the animal products to use for your body, then you would get out of veggies. I think in the long run, the time, and or energy is a wash.

That's not even taking into account how easy it is to digest raw animal products, as most people aren't willing to do that.

Sure, and if you took in the rest of what I said in my post back there, I was speaking mainly of the way the digestive process gets into a certain rythmn of needing to work a certain amount to break meat down, which can then be left in the lurch once that is removed and replaced straight away with just veg.

Are you saying you think that it wouldn't be too much of a shock to the body for such an abrupt change of rythmn because certain vegies contain much fibre and take more effort to break down?

You also have a more satisfied feeling from meat, which will stop you from over eating, and having to eat another meal really quickly. That's not to say that it digests longer tho. They say that meat stays in the intestines longer, but that's actually veggies, due to the cellulose. 100% of meat is digestible, while veggies are not, but are very good for the body specifically because of that fact.

Then how come when a person will have colonic hydrotherapy, a whole bunch of rather unattractive rancid meat particles are found undigested in the duodenum and colon?

I'm not disagreeing with the first part of what you said in this paragraph, meat does leave you with a more satisfied, full feeling, which lasts longer... and I don't know much about cellulose from vegies being harder to digest, I'm just questioning the part about meat not getting stuck in the digestive tract, especially given that most people are terrible at masticating, and impatiently swallow meat before it has been properly broken down and prepared for digestion. They do the same with words and information as well by the way. Impatiently consume.

Most people think that digestion only occurs in the gut, but it's actually in the chewing that the process starts as saliva contains certain enzymes that start the process for the foods journey down the esophagus, and vegies are much easier to break down and be mushy before they hit the stomach, which obviously makes it easier to digest properly once there.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

My brother is one of those sickly looking vegetarians. Skinny as a rail, and pale as umm, what ever is pale? I haven't bothered too much as far as inquiring his motives.

Could this be an explanation why RR is ready to make every person who says something positive about vegetarian/vegan diet cry?

No offense, but seriously, it seems that in every thread where someone mentions something that is even slightly positive about vegetarian/vegan diet or worse, implies that it might be a better or more ethical choice, you get really fired up.. I get now why Steve says that you're future vegan

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Agota

Could this be an explanation why RR is ready to make every person who says something positive about vegetarian/vegan diet cry?

No offense, but seriously, it seems that in every thread where someone mentions something that is even slightly positive about vegetarian/vegan diet or worse, implies that it might be a better or more ethical choice, you get really fired up.. I get now why Steve says that you're future vegan

It's all the raw meat he consumes. I'm convinced it makes him more aggressive.

He only takes his meat 'blue' which is basically raw.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Sure, and if you took in the rest of what I said in my post back there, I was speaking mainly of the way the digestive process gets into a certain rythmn of needing to work a certain amount to break meat down, which can then be left in the lurch once that is removed and replaced straight away with just veg.

Are you saying you think that it wouldn't be too much of a shock to the body for such an abrupt change of rythmn because certain vegies contain much fibre and take more effort to break down?



Then how come when a person will have colonic hydrotherapy, a whole bunch of rather unattractive rancid meat particles are found undigested in the duodenum and colon?

I'm not disagreeing with the first part of what you said in this paragraph, meat does leave you with a more satisfied, full feeling, which lasts longer... and I don't know much about cellulose from vegies being harder to digest, I'm just questioning the part about meat not getting stuck in the digestive tract, especially given that most people are terrible at masticating, and impatiently swallow meat before it has been properly broken down and prepared for digestion. They do the same with words and information as well by the way. Impatiently consume.

Most people think that digestion only occurs in the gut, but it's actually in the chewing that the process starts as saliva contains certain enzymes that start the process for the foods journey down the esophagus, and vegies are much easier to break down and be mushy before they hit the stomach, which obviously makes it easier to digest properly once there.

well, no, changing your diet in any way tends to be a pretty big shock.

As far as rancid meat in the intestines. That has a lot to do with the overly processed, and or highly modified, and or overly cooked. That's an unnatural way to eat meat. Can't eat a piece of beef jerky, or some off the shelf deli slice, and expect it to digest as well as a nice medium rare steak.

The gut is pretty strong. Even if i barely chew my steaks, my bowel movements are pretty quick and clean. Veggies don't break down quickly. That's why a cow has 4 stomachs, and why other animals who are meant to eat only veggies, have special organs made to digest the cellulose, while we have neither. If it was mainly the saliva and mushiness, then they wouldn't need those organs.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Agota

Could this be an explanation why RR is ready to make every person who says something positive about vegetarian/vegan diet cry?

No offense, but seriously, it seems that in every thread where someone mentions something that is even slightly positive about vegetarian/vegan diet or worse, implies that it might be a better or more ethical choice, you get really fired up.. I get now why Steve says that you're future vegan

it's not really fired up. nothing I'd lose sleep over if I didn't respond on here. I've tried out raw/veggie/vegan many times. Nothing future about it.

If they cry, then maybe the lack of meat is making them too emotional

Originally Posted by elucidate

It's all the raw meat he consumes. I'm convinced it makes him more aggressive.

He only takes his meat 'blue' which is basically raw.

eh, lol I have some built up anger issues, but I wouldn't say aggressive . I don't pick fights or yell at anyone ever. To type words, is just so easy. There doesn't need to be emotion in those words tho, unlike when spoken out loud. If anything, I should be more aggressive, so that I don't build up all that hidden anger.

but yes, who knows what all the "raw" meat is doing to me maybe getting me closer to my inner animal.

[firenexx]

That's why a cow has 4 stomachs,

No, a cow has four stomachs because it eats grass, which is a bit harder to digest than garden vegetables.

Also, no one has said anything about fruit, which often takes less than an hour to digest. Some people feel that a very large portion of one's calories should be from fruit. That is a lot of fruit. 10 bananas is 1,000 calories. 4-5 melons is 1,000 calories. It is also a lot of sugar, and some people feel that even sugar from fruit is bad and will cause diabetes. Did Adam and Steve get diabetes? Maybe they ate too many apples.

As for the beginning of the thread, it is true that many (most) vegans/vegetarians have low energy and are pale and sickly due to a poor diet/lifestyle. A vegetarian diet is hard to properly maintain what with all the crappy food and bad information that's available nowadays.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Agota

I've only started to eat meat, so it's too early to tell the difference, but in general I get a good feeling of fire element getting back to balance when eating meat, which basically means that I immediately start to feel a little bit warmer when I eat meat. I'll soon start eating chicken or beef every day or every other day or so, then I'll be able to actually evaluate the difference. I think I'll write a blog post once my omnivore tand it only gets worse if they eat loads of junk and consume a lot of sugar. It's not a problem with presence or absence of meat, it's a problem with an unbalanced diet.

People, apologies for derailing a thread

If someone is vegan for ethical resons then they can just eat crackers, jelly beans and gummy bears. I know a lot of vegetarians and they are not pale and unhealthy. In fact there is system of health that promotes a vegan diet and sunbathing. What you are saying is like someone saying that he knows some black people and most of them are on welfare, eat chitlins and play their music very loud. President Obama is black!

Dr Fuhrman calls his vegan diet a nutritarian diet and he heals many diseases with it.

You say:

When it comes to vegetarians, yeah, there really is something with most vegetarians I meet: they're usually pale and really don't seem to have much energy

Do you think that being pale has anything to do with diet? I am vegan and love watching movies. Do you think they are related? I have more energy than most people and can never get overweight. My mother ate meat but was the same way and taught ballet at Jouliards.

My neighbors and I. I live in AZ and sunbathe and do not take vitamin D since I get it from the sun. I am a white person but my skin is very dark. Pete is white and vegan. He does not sunbathe but takes walks and hikes so his skin is dark but not as dark as my skin. John is mostly vegetarian but does not get much sun so he is average.

Bob eats meat and sunbathes and is dark. Jim eats meat but does not get much sunlight and is pale. So do you think that getting sunlight has anything at all to do with darkness of skin???????????????????????????????????

Do you think that diet has anything to do with darkeness of skin??????????????????? What foods make people dark and what foods make people pale? With this kind of logic at work with picking what to eat, how much etc. wouldn't you expect to have problems?

Say someone is pale and wants to get darker. What food should they eat? Should they eat more watermelon since many blacks like to eat watermelon. What should they do to be less pale? Actually one skin dye is made from something in carrots and if you eat excessive carrots, you can make your skin more orange colored. Should people watch less horror movies to be less pale?

[Agota]

You can note that I wasn't discrediting vegan or vegetarian diet, I was simply saying that yeah, most vegetarian and vegans (not all!) that I've met seem to to look pale and weak. This is my experience, I believe it's normal to note the relation that many people with the similar diet preferences look similar, this way not very healthy. I'm not saying that all vegans or vegetarians are like that or anything or that vegan or vegetarian diet is unhealthy as such. I have a friend who is vegan and is I-lost-the-count-how-many-times arm wrestling champion who also leads a very active lifestyle. He does seem full of energy, strong and healthy. I usually point this example out to people who say that only teenage girls who do nothing but obsess about Justin Bieber all day long and can't lift an iPod can survive on vegan diet.

I didn't mean pale as in the light skin/dark skin way. I meant pale as in when you're feeling sick way. When white people don't feel so well, they usually look pale compared to their normal skin tone. You can usually tell the difference between the person with pale skin who look healthy and person with pale skin who look not so healthy. This type of pale, unhealthy pale, was what I was referring to. Not the "didn't get enough sunbathing" pale.

[Agota]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Say someone is pale and wants to get darker. What food should they eat? Should they eat more watermelon since many blacks like to eat watermelon. What should they do to be less pale? Actually one skin dye is made from something in carrots and if you eat excessive carrots, you can make your skin more orange colored. Should people watch less horror movies to be less pale?

I'd say eat whatever you like and go sunbathing or get in sunbed

I also think "Twillight" has an effect on people being pale, because apparently "pale and skinny" is the new "tall dark and handsome"