Is being Vegan better for the cow than a knife & fork?

[ChaosKiwi]

I have noticed that many Vegans state that they don't want animals to suffer as part of their reasoning for their Veganism. But I wonder if everybody were to become Vegan, what would happen to all the cows?

My Grandparents and there parents etc where farmers, and from my (limited) experience on farms domesticated animals such as cows etc require a surprising amount of care to remain healthy and happy. If everyone were Vegan, who would look after such animals? A possibility would be a large majority of the existing cow population would probably die!

Is letting a mass number of domesticated cows die out better than eating the occasional steak? Would Veganism work without meat eaters?

[Mark Lapierre]

Consider what you're asking. All humans suddenly become vegans. A global change on that scale would require something dramatic, don't you think! I'm sure that whatever caused the change could also assist with caring for the cows.

And if the change were the result of a sudden huge uplift in consciousness (of which veganism isn't a necessary result, but assume it is in this case), then everyone would be willing to help out with caring for the cows.

Finally, if the change occurred gradually, groups of people at a time slowly raising their consciousness, there'd be plenty of time to slow down the breeding of more cows, letting the non-vegans consume the remaining at an ever dwindling rate.

[Keith]

I think you're confusing quality of life with quantity of life. There are a lot of cows - more than can be reasonably and naturally sustained. (The same is true of humans, but that's another topic). They are treated poorly in part because they are so expendable.

Mark is right when he points out that the reduction in cow numbers would probably be attained by reduced breeding rather than by slaughter. A cow's natural lifespan is about 25 years, so the cow population could be reduced to any target level over this period without killing a single cow. The reduced population of cows, no longer a factory commodity, would probably be a lot more humanely treated than they currently are.

Also, it's not just about the suffering of the cows - it's also about the suffering of all the native animals that have been displaced by grazing lands for cattle. A large reduction in the number of cows would greatly increase the land available for biodiversity.

Mark is not right in assuming that a mass change to veganism would automatically result in greater care for livestock animals. A mass increase in 'consciousness' would lead to reduced meat eating, but so could a lot of other things. Health concerns, for example - remember the reduction in beef-eating when Mad Cow Disease hit? Or simple efficiency - the same farmland can feed many times the people if it's used for plants rather than animals. Or a requirement to conserve water. None of these situations bode well for the animals that have become surplus to requirements.

[Dharma]

There is no correleation between consciousness and veganism.

Cows have consciousness, just as we do. Its expression is different from ours, but they are conscious, they do create their reality just as we do. All consciousness has choice and all consciousness creates.

Now, it would be crazy to a human to choose to be mass produced and then slaughtered for food and products. Could a cow choose that life? We cannot force the cows into a reality they do not want. That is impossible. Am I going to tell you the cows choose to be in the experience they are in?

Yes, they do, or it would not be.

So why would a cow do that? I have no idea why. But I do know that consciousness supports itself and is constantly expanding and growing. The non-human kingdoms are more aware of our connectedness with all-that-is than we are. I assume that the cow's choice supports their path and also supports the whole of consciousness, but we are far from seeing that.

[ChaosKiwi]

Great explinations, thankyou!

I still wonder though, are cows really treated that badly? I mean, I know battery farming chickens is horrible, as are most pig farms, but most cow farms I've been to the cows have ample space and seem happy (as far as I can tell). There's the death part at maturity but that is quick(?) and cows dying of natural causes is usually quite distressing. Maybe this is different in other parts of the world?

[coolbir]

do u think cows were made to be eaten?

[Keith]

Originally Posted by coolbir

do u think cows were made to be eaten?

Well yeah! They're made of meat aren't they!?

More seriously, It's the other way around - we evolved to eat cows, or we wouldn't have the capability to do so. OTOH, we also evolved to eat much smaller quantities of cows than we currently do, as well as cows fed on a less rich diet. We also evolved to get by okay if cows weren't available...

[yennyw]

Originally Posted by Keith

Well yeah! They're made of meat aren't they!?

More seriously, It's the other way around - we evolved to eat cows, or we wouldn't have the capability to do so. OTOH, we also evolved to eat much smaller quantities of cows than we currently do, as well as cows fed on a less rich diet. We also evolved to get by okay if cows weren't available...

Hello! Well, yes, we have been co-evolving into the state that is now, but is not that we are made to do something, it seems to me that we are able to do so, but not bound to do so.
On the part that farmers are those who take care of cows, It seems that we've become so dependent, that a great number of cows will have their conditions changed if people stop receiving economic incentive to propagate that species. And change is stress. I'm not saying it will be bad for them, just that it will take a little time for them to adjust on living "on their own".
It also seems that when there wasn't so much preassure for production, animals that we feed on would have a better experience on their lives than right now.
The main point I want to make is that to exist, you have to take somebody else. And I mean SOME BODY, whether it is a plant cell, animal cell, bacterial cell, fungal cell, protist cell, or tissues from the ones that have. To ensure they do not suffer when they die, and to honor their gift of order and less entropy by doing something good with our energy received, is what I sometimes think, before I eat.
Also, are we made to be eaten? We are not made for it, we are fit for it. We can be eaten, if we are not cremated, we WILL BE EATEN completely! We are often eaten a little bit every moment by all what lies on our skin (outside and inside). Diseases that have an agent (except prions and virus) are MO eating us.
May we all be of the best use!

[ferociousgoals]

"A possibility would be a large majority of the existing cow population would probably die!"

Um, well, it's pretty much guaranteed that those cows are going to die if people keep eating them, isn't it?

As for farming conditions, have you ever driven on the 5 or 99 Highways in California? They go past several of the sort of feedlots that provide most of the beef in the US. They are horrible places--you can smell them for miles, the cows are packed, hundreds to a small unshaded bare "pasture," where they are dosed with incredible amounts of antibiotics and other pesticides. As for the ways they die, it's pretty easy to find some slaughterhouse videos on youtube. I'm not a supporter of PETA, but they have many videos available.

Although I do not eat beef, I think for meat-eaters, there are some actions that you can take that neither deny you the meat you want nor support the industries that are polluting the planet and treating animals badly. I know a lot of vegans disagree, but, if you must eat meat, buy meat that is grass-fed, free-range, organic, and local if possible. Those are the cows that do the least harm to the environment and your own body. Not only that, those are also the cows that you see roaming around in grassy fields and looking fat and glossy. If all cows were treated like that, "grass-fed" and "free-range" wouldn't be such an advertising point and priced higher! Plus, then we aren't facing the (admittedly ridiculous) possibility of cow extinction on a mass scale.

[Mark Lapierre]

Originally Posted by Keith

Mark is not right in assuming that a mass change to veganism would automatically result in greater care for livestock animals. A mass increase in 'consciousness' would lead to reduced meat eating, but so could a lot of other things. Health concerns, for example - remember the reduction in beef-eating when Mad Cow Disease hit? Or simple efficiency - the same farmland can feed many times the people if it's used for plants rather than animals. Or a requirement to conserve water. None of these situations bode well for the animals that have become surplus to requirements.

No, I agree with you. It was an increase in consciousness, correlated with an increase in concern for others, which I suggested would lead to greater care for cows.

[bert eats dirt]

Many good points have been made here. To address the original post, any realistic shift to global vegXism would be gradual - it just wouldn't happen overnight. Cows as livestock would therefore be "phased out" rather than be killed as part of some bovine genocide, so that part of things wouldn't contribute to cruelty. As someone's already mentioned, it would also be a matter of quality over quantity of life. There would be much less cows, but they'd suffer much less, and that in my opinion is far better than a whole lotta suffering cows. As for the lives of cows now - I don't know how they're raised in modern day farms, but if they're exported live in cramped shipping containers with poo and untreated diseases everywhere and sent off to places where they don't value animal welfare as much as other countries, then that is a terrible way for any animal to be treated even if it is "only" for the last week or two of their lives. Regardless of how they're treated on farms, they still end up having their throats slashed in the slaughterhouse for human consumption. A most undignified end, in my humble opinion. Not to mention the ethics behind treating a living breathing creature as a mere commodity, and not to mention the greenhouse gases their poo produces, the unsustainable use of farmland and therefore water, soil, nutrients, fertilisers, etc.

So to summarise, yes vegXism is, in my humble opinion, much less cruel for the cow than eating them

[coolbir]

Vegetarians Live Longer. - Able Cures

Maybe this will change your perspective

[Keith]

Originally Posted by coolbir

Vegetarians Live Longer. - Able Cures

Maybe this will change your perspective

That article says absolutely nothing about the impact of veganism on livestock.