Vegetarianism is Not for Everyone - The China Study refuted... again!

[stanmrak]

Quoted from today's article from Dr. Mercola:

There are certainly justifications for choosing to be a vegetarian, but using science to argue that vegetarianism is the correct diet for everyone is fatally flawed.

Ultimately people are individuals, not statistics, and experimental science can only give us varying degrees of confidence in our scientific conclusions.

Using the China Study to argue that vegetarianism is correct for everyone is particularly problematic because... not only does Campbell rely heavily on observational data that can never be used to support or refute a hypothesis, he also makes many glaring omissions about his own experimental work, ignoring many promising leads, omitting many critical findings, and taking one pet hypothesis out of many and running with it.

There is No Perfect Diet for Everyone

When science is properly performed, it can provide valuable insights to help us make our choices. However, ultimately the best science is listening to your body.

It is great to experiment with your food choices and see how you feel. If your energy level is high, you aren't hungry after meals you aren't coming down with colds and flus, and your health is phenomenal, this is probably a good clue that your food choices are serving you well.

However, if your health is declining and you aren't thriving on any particular diet... then it is time to make some changes. So the best study you can do is on yourself.

Read whoever you want but don't follow anyone, Campbell or me, just because you believe what we say makes sense. Ultimately your body needs to validate biologically that you are supplying it with a fuel that is optimized for your specific genetics and biochemistry.

Chris Masterjohn's Insightful Critique of the China Study

[russianrocket]

Good timing, after Ginkos newest attempt to introduce the China Study as something that actually matters.

[supertom]

Seriously the vegetarianism vs omnivore debates on here are like the lion vs tiger debates on youtube I think its best to accept a person decision to go either way.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I totally agree that the vegan diet is not for everyone. But it is certainly for more people than are currently vegan. Even Dr. Mercola says that around 1/3 of the population could thrive on a vegan or vegetarian diet, but the other 2/3 need at least some animal products in their diet to maintain optimal health. There are numerous anecdotal cases of people trying to go vegan the healthy way and still not being healthy. I don't think I've ever felt sick after eating meat, and I often feel better than before I ate it. That is one of the questions to determine your nutritional type.

Sure veganism is a great philosophy, but not at the cost of your health. If you are vegan and have been for a long time and struggling with health issues, then it is not the correct diet for you. It may be hard to come to terms with that, but would you rather live a good life or become a sacrificial lamb for your diet? Of course this doesn't apply to everyone who is vegan, just some of them.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I totally agree that the vegan diet is not for everyone. But it is certainly for more people than are currently vegan. Even Dr. Mercola says that around 1/3 of the population could thrive on a vegan or vegetarian diet, but the other 2/3 need at least some animal products in their diet to maintain optimal health. There are numerous anecdotal cases of people trying to go vegan the healthy way and still not being healthy. I don't think I've ever felt sick after eating meat, and I often feel better than before I ate it. That is one of the questions to determine your nutritional type.

Sure veganism is a great philosophy, but not at the cost of your health. If you are vegan and have been for a long time and struggling with health issues, then it is not the correct diet for you. It may be hard to come to terms with that, but would you rather live a good life or become a sacrificial lamb for your diet? Of course this doesn't apply to everyone who is vegan, just some of them.

That's the case for me. I went a few months without meat and then I went out and bought some for my slow-carb experiment. It turns out that even factory farmed chicken makes me feel a hell of a lot better than I do without meat. Within the hour I felt calmer, more focused, definitely more satisfied than I had been with any recent meal prior to that point.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

There are numerous anecdotal cases of people trying to go vegan the healthy way and still not being healthy. I don't think I've ever felt sick after eating meat, and I often feel better than before I ate it. That is one of the questions to determine your nutritional type.

Wow, really? I've been vegetarian for almost two years, but in that time I've had meat, a few times. It makes me feel slightly ill now. I'm not sure I could go back to it if I wanted to.

I also noticed a couple digestive changes (for the better) after giving it up.

I thought it was just a question of what my body was used to, though.

ETA: It might be worth noting that I'm 1/2 Indian, and that half of my family hasn't eaten meat... for... ever. (They're Tamil Brahmins.) I don't really know if that's a logical reason though..? I mean, just because there's a traditional diet in every part of the world doesn't necessarily mean that those people are suited only to that diet. This is something I've always wondered about though, especially re: meat-eating.

[elucidate]

I did the same thing. Went without meat for a whole year...felt great, light, almost too light...and had trouble focussing, like I was even more vague than usual

As soon as I went back to meat, I felt grounded, here, and could concentrate a lot more than without it.

I don't think saving the animals at the expense of your own health is a very intelligent decision. We are animals as well, and we deserve to take care of our bodies as much as they deserve to be treated with respect as well.

[elucidate]

Everyone's body and digestive systems are different. What's right for one person is not for another.

If it's been in your family for generations to be vegan, then it's no wonder. If your body has adapted to having no meat in it for 2 years, and now even small amounts of meat make you feel ill, then it's simple...your body rejects meat and does better without it.

So stick to what you are doing, 'cos it's obviously right for you!

Originally Posted by Criseyde

Wow, really? I've been vegetarian for almost two years, but in that time I've had meat, a few times. It makes me feel slightly ill now. I'm not sure I could go back to it if I wanted to.

I also noticed a couple digestive changes (for the better) after giving it up.

I thought it was just a question of what my body was used to, though.

ETA: It might be worth noting that I'm 1/2 Indian, and that half of my family hasn't eaten meat... for... ever. (They're Tamil Brahmins.) I don't really know if that's a logical reason though..? I mean, just because there's a traditional diet in every part of the world doesn't necessarily mean that those people are suited only to that diet. This is something I've always wondered about though, especially re: meat-eating.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by supertom

Seriously the vegetarianism vs omnivore debates on here are like the lion vs tiger debates on youtube I think its best to accept a person decision to go either way.

It's not about what a person wants to or doesn't want to do with their body. The debates on here are not to convince someone that they're diet is wrong for them. It's about showing OTHERS the different sides, before they have made a decision, or before they are 100% sure about it. If all the vegans came on here and showed their experience and said how great and perfect their diet is for everyone.... which they do.... can you really expect the non vegans to sit idly by and not say anything?

[supertom]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I don't think saving the animals at the expense of your own health is a very intelligent decision. We are animals as well, and we deserve to take care of our bodies as much as they deserve to be treated with respect as well.

that seems incongruent how would you manage to do that.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

that seems incongruent how would you manage to do that.

How does it seem incongruent supertom? Incongruent with what exactly? And, how would I manage what?

If you mean how would we manage to both respect animals and eat them?

I said respect the animals, which means take care of them while they are still alive. Obviously they have to die if meat eaters are to eat them, right? It would be nice if they didn't have to, but then we'd be eating them alive, and that's even more unpleasant I think, for both parties. Truthfully, I don't like the fact that they have to die for us to eat them, but I also know that some people need meat in their diet. Just because loads of people can live well on a vegetarian diet, does not mean everyone does, or has to.

Vegetarians think that killing the animal is the ultimate act of disrespect towards the animal. I don't see something that has been done for centuries, since the dawn of time to be disrespectful, though the way in which they die may not be as honorable as it used to be when hunters hunted.

Hunters used to say a prayer for the animal after they'd killed their prey, did you know that? They gave thanks to the animal for the gift of it's flesh that would sustain them... they did not just see them as money, like the farmers and abatoirs and butchers of today do.

I'd prefer it if people went back to hunting for their own meat if they wanted it, rather than buying pre-packaged lumps of cow that show no evidence of them ever having been a living creature before. But people aren't about to do that, and neither are they about to give up meat because all the vegans think they should.

I think it's possible to treat animals respectfully and still eat them. It's already been happening on organic farms, where the animals are free to roam for miles in green pastures and fed without the use of hormones to fatten them up.

Some people feel better after they've eaten meat. Do you suggest that those people should just feel bad their whole lives so the animals can live?

[supertom]

Originally Posted by elucidate

How does it seem incongruent supertom? Incongruent with what exactly? And, how would I manage what?

how would one would treat a with respect animal than slit its throat especially something like a lamb.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

how would one would treat a with respect animal than slit its throat especially something like a lamb.

Did you read the rest of my post?

[supertom]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Did you read the rest of my post?

Well i have sexual needs its OK for me to go rape a woman, I'll say a prayer for the woman I rape, give thanks for flesh that sustain and satisfied my emotional and sexual needs, I don't see something that has been done for centuries, since the dawn of time to be disrespectful, do you prefer I fill bad my whole life just so a woman doesn't feel bad for a few moments ??

(twisted paraphrase)

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

Well i have sexual needs its OK for me to go rape a woman, I'll say a prayer for the woman I rape, give thanks for flesh that sustain and satisfied my emotional and sexual needs, I don't see something that has been done for centuries, since the dawn of time to be disrespectful, do you prefer I fill bad my whole life just so a woman doesn't feel bad for a few moments ??

That's a ridiculous argument, and you know it. It's also designed to get me emotive.

When you are willing to have a decent discussion with me I'll reply to your posts. emotional and sexual needs are not the same as physical survival and health.

This discussion is not about the moral reasons for choosing vegetarianism, it's about the FACT that some peoples bodies work better when they eat meat!

[supertom]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That's a ridiculous argument, and you know it. It's also designed to get me emotive.

When you are willing to have a decent discussion with me I'll reply to your posts. emotional and sexual needs are not the same as physical survival and health.

This discussion is not about the moral reasons for choosing vegetarianism, it's about the FACT that some peoples bodies work better when they eat meat!

It was a reply to your last post not to the actual topic. I think you may have a hard time refuting it, you would be the receiving end of someone else lust being the prey isnt so nice is it. It is easy to justify lust.

TBH I believe people work better emotionally from eating meat i.e it feeds their lust, their just the body works better argument is just a excuse to justify their actions they cant accept or express the truth that their feeding their lust, because everyone wants look like the good person.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by supertom

It was a reply to your last post not to the actual topic. I think you may have a hard time refuting it, you would be the receiving end of someone else lust being the prey isnt so nice is it. It is easy to justify lust.

I have been on the receiving end of that, AND I've mentioned it here on this forum before. I find it a little distasteful that you would bring that up to be honest with you, but I can see your argument.
The fact that you think rape is about someone having their Lust satiated, shows how little you know about the subject, but you feel qualified enough to compare it to the slaughter of an animal.
A slaughtered animal does not have to deal with any aftermath of being killed...it's dead, and usually it dies a very fast death, almost instantaneous. A rape victim has to deal with a whole bunch of stuff that you will probably never know about, so it's not a very good analogy after all, is it?

TBH I believe people work better emotionally from eating meat i.e it feeds their lust, their just the body works better argument is just a excuse to justify their actions they cant accept or express the truth that their feeding their lust, because everyone wants look like the good person.

You are entitled to think what you will, and spoken like a true vegetarian you think that because vego food works for you and others like you, that it must therefore work for everyone, and if they say it doesn't, it's because they are covering for being lustful. Funny how vegetarians are so wise they even know what is best for someone elses body!

I know that I have worked 15 hours shifts as a waitress before, and the only thing that gave me the energy I needed for that kind of work was some chicken. I didn't feel horny when I ate it, it just helped me feel more grounded. I don't eat a lot of meat btw...but when I do, I feel much more energized than I do eating purely vegetarian food, which I also enjoy!

[richardxthripp]

I've been a vegetarian except fish for 17 months, and I seem to have a bit more energy now. I used to get tired after eating a hamburger or some fried chicken, but now I don't have that problem since I just don't eat those foods. I still get plenty of hormones and GMO from factory farm eggs, cheese, and produce, though.

[beast]

For those of you who say you feel better when you eat meat, do you get a similar feeling when you eat eggs? I ask because I've been a vegetarian my entire life (never eaten fish, chicken, or meat) and I feel much better when I eat eggs - even though they taste repulsive to me.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by beast

For those of you who say you feel better when you eat meat, do you get a similar feeling when you eat eggs? I ask because I've been a vegetarian my entire life (never eaten fish, chicken, or meat) and I feel much better when I eat eggs - even though they taste repulsive to me.

I don't eat eggs all that often, but when I do I can't say that I feel all that much better, though I know they contain lots of protein and in that sense, I get energy, but it's not the same sort of instant jolt of energy and grounding feeling I get when I do eat meat, which isn't all that often. Usually around certain times of the month.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by richardxthripp

I've been a vegetarian except fish for 17 months, and I seem to have a bit more energy now. I used to get tired after eating a hamburger or some fried chicken, but now I don't have that problem since I just don't eat those foods. I still get plenty of hormones and GMO from factory farm eggs, cheese, and produce, though.

You're a vegetarian and you eat factory farmed eggs??

[beast]

Originally Posted by elucidate

I don't eat eggs all that often, but when I do I can't say that I feel all that much better, though I know they contain lots of protein and in that sense, I get energy, but it's not the same sort of instant jolt of energy and grounding feeling I get when I do eat meat, which isn't all that often. Usually around certain times of the month.

Ah, bummer. I don't think I could stomach meat at this point. I was so thoroughly indoctrinated as the child of two big hippies that I'm pretty sure I'm just a lost-cause.

[stanmrak]

Originally Posted by supertom

Well i have sexual needs its OK for me to go rape a woman, I'll say a prayer for the woman I rape, give thanks for flesh that sustain and satisfied my emotional and sexual needs, I don't see something that has been done for centuries, since the dawn of time to be disrespectful, do you prefer I fill bad my whole life just so a woman doesn't feel bad for a few moments ??

(twisted paraphrase)

Comparing women to animals? I pity your mate, even if you were trying to be sarcastic.
But, in this culture, Michael Vick gets prison time for abusing dogs while Ben Rothleisberger gets a slap on the wrist for abusing women.

[beast]

Hey now! As a feminist and a dog-lover, I think they both ought to have been castrated!

[Fred Tracy]

I went veggie for a little while and have been hoping to try it again, but like the OP said I'm not entirely sure it's the best for my body. On the other hand, no meat probably beats eating Taco Bell at 2 in the morning, so it couldn't be that bad of a change.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by beast

Hey now! As a feminist and a dog-lover, I think they both ought to have been castrated!

I love dogs as much as the next guy, but Vick us a HUMAN BEING. Aren't you a humanist at all in there? Ironically, Ben is a big dog lover, and has donated $100,000 to a police dog fund.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by beast

For those of you who say you feel better when you eat meat, do you get a similar feeling when you eat eggs? I ask because I've been a vegetarian my entire life (never eaten fish, chicken, or meat) and I feel much better when I eat eggs - even though they taste repulsive to me.

I do. Before I introduced meat back into my diet I started eating eggs. The effect wasn't quite as pronounced but it was an improvement, and I found that within a few days my body was craving them.

[beast]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I love dogs as much as the next guy, but Vick us a HUMAN BEING. Aren't you a humanist at all in there? Ironically, Ben is a big dog lover, and has donated $100,000 to a police dog fund.

What? I care lots about humans. I also love dogs. I don't think they're mutually exclusive.

And it isn't ironic. PETA also hates women and loves dogs.

[beast]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

I do. Before I introduced meat back into my diet I started eating eggs. The effect wasn't quite as pronounced but it was an improvement, and I found that within a few days my body was craving them.

My body totally craves eggs, but they taste so gross to me and I've never quite found anything that can offset the gross egginess, except baking with them. But I think the health benefits are probably negated when I'm eating them in chocolate chip cookies.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

That's the case for me. I went a few months without meat and then I went out and bought some for my slow-carb experiment. It turns out that even factory farmed chicken makes me feel a hell of a lot better than I do without meat. Within the hour I felt calmer, more focused, definitely more satisfied than I had been with any recent meal prior to that point.

Here's what I don't like about some vegans. They think they are spiritually "higher" for not eating animals, but that is a total fallacy. If you don't eat animals, great, but you don't have to act as if you are a better person for doing so. And as another poster put above, if eating meat is making you physically sick, how does that make you healthier? If your system can't even handle meat after going vegan or vegetarian, than are you better off eating meat or not? If you want to be vegan, fine. But you have to realize that humans have been eating meat for a long time and we have definitely adapted to digesting it properly.

Sure, plant foods are easier to digest and we should have a majority of plant foods in our diet. The only reason that we think meat is bad for us is because of most of the animals we are eating are sick from the horrid conditions of factory farming. Wild animals have much more nutrition in them and would probably we well worth the effort. I'd say 10% of diet from animal products would be sufficient to thrive, but for me, all-or-nothingism when it comes to removing animal products from my diet is not an option.