Fasting: glorified eating disorders?

[ginkgo]

"It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Obama when he was elected president. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" your new spouse. But a few years later you divorce. There is a term for this other than the honeymoon time. People like to look forward to something and have hope in something. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Adolf Hitler by Germans when he was first elected.

The place where this comes from is this true self. The true self in every person is always urging the person to find their true self. The true self is always in a state of perfect peace, unending love and infinite satisfaction and that is why the above sounds so good to people.

This will also be present when most people learn that the scientists at the Moores Cancer Center feel that cancer is based on a vitamin D deficiency. But then when most of the cancer in North America is gone, people will forget there ever was a big cancer problem. Do you even remember when many Americans were afraid to open their mail since it may contain anthrax that will kill them?

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by Angela

Seems pretty clear in the context of her thread title

Thought so, too.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

"It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Obama when he was elected president. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" your new spouse. But a few years later you divorce. There is a term for this other than the honeymoon time. People like to look forward to something and have hope in something. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Adolf Hitler by Germans when he was first elected.

The place where this comes from is this true self. The true self in every person is always urging the person to find their true self. The true self is always in a state of perfect peace, unending love and infinite satisfaction and that is why the above sounds so good to people.

This will also be present when most people learn that the scientists at the Moores Cancer Center feel that cancer is based on a vitamin D deficiency. But then when most of the cancer in North America is gone, people will forget there ever was a big cancer problem. Do you even remember when many Americans were afraid to open their mail since it may contain anthrax that will kill them?

I'm not really sure what your point is, ginkgo, sorry. Can you explain what you mean? Are you saying that just because there's a cultish fervor behind it, doesn't make it wrong, because that passion propels people forward?

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

"It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Obama when he was elected president. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" your new spouse. But a few years later you divorce. There is a term for this other than the honeymoon time. People like to look forward to something and have hope in something. "It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for" Adolf Hitler by Germans when he was first elected.

The place where this comes from is this true self. The true self in every person is always urging the person to find their true self. The true self is always in a state of perfect peace, unending love and infinite satisfaction and that is why the above sounds so good to people.

This will also be present when most people learn that the scientists at the Moores Cancer Center feel that cancer is based on a vitamin D deficiency. But then when most of the cancer in North America is gone, people will forget there ever was a big cancer problem. Do you even remember when many Americans were afraid to open their mail since it may contain anthrax that will kill them?

Your web site and you can do what you want, but I am not going to read it in its current form. The large bolded font and shocking red and blue are unpleasant and distracting.

And I am at a loss for what Vitamin D has to do with fasting?

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

It seems like there's an almost cultish zealotry for fasting around these parts.

Examples?

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

The only time I ever did a fast was to kick start me out of an ED. It actually worked, but I don't know how much of it was caused by the fast and how much was just my intention to do that, you know?

That's pretty interesting. I believe the two worked together for you and very nicely and I think you'll agree that fasting seems to have an amazing way of strengthening us in our resolve.

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Fasting is not an eating disorder. People have been fasting for health for thousands of years. While it may be true that some people who fast may have an eating disorder, most people are doing it for health reasons, not simply to lose weight. It has profound healing powers if done correctly... It is those with chronic health problems that will benefit the most.

Yes Andrew, i agree with you on all of this.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

This is what I would like an explanation of. An explanation with reason, without any fananticism. Can someone explain how starving myself equates to health? Even for a day?

Ginkgo has a website with quotes from 23 md's on the benefits of fasting . Yes i say this partly in jest, but there are some very good fasting quotes therein, a portion of them to follow:

Originally Posted by Misc MD's on Fasting

Joel Fuhrman, M.D. (has fasting center in NJ) says... "In my practice I have seen fasting eliminate lupus and arthritis, remove chronic skin conditions such as psoriasis and eczema, heal the digestive tract in patients with ulcerative colitis and Crohn's disease, and quickly eliminate cardiovascular diseases such as high blood pressure and angina. In these cases the recoveries were permanent."... "There are hundreds of journal articles in the medical literature documenting the value of fasting in improving the function of the entire body including brain... Fasting has been repeatedly observed to alleviate neurosis, anxiety and depression."

John Tilden, M.D., who fasted thousands of people in his Denver center, said "I must say in all seriousness that fasting when combined with a properly selected diet is the nearest approach to a 'cure-all' that is possible to conceive-- profoundly simple and simply profound!"

Hereward Carrington, M.D. wrote a book called Vitality, Fasting and Nutrition. He says "fasting is a scientific method of ridding the system of diseased tissues, and morbid matter, and is invariably accompanied by beneficial results...

Charles Page, M.D. says "The fasting cure universally and rationally applied, would save thousands of lives every year."

Ron Kennedy, M.D. says "Fasting creates a condition of low concentration of toxic wastes in the circulatory system. This is sensed by the plasma membrane of each cell and each cell will then let go of its load of toxic wastes. When this happens suddenly, as it does with fasting, the result can be a sudden case of mild systemic toxemia as the system cleanses itself. Those who fast must be prepared for a phase of headache, irritability, insomnia and fatigue. This is a natural part of the healing process and should be welcomed." ...

Dr. Charles Goodrich of the Mt. Sinai School of Medicine in New York City, who has fasted many times said "People don't realize that the chief obstacle to fasting is overcoming the cultural, social and psychological fears of going without food. These fears are ingrained. . . .However, fasting is not starving, not even in a medical sense or the natural sense."

Michael R. Eades, M.D. says "Like caloric restriction, intermittent fasting reduces oxidative stress, makes the animals more resistant to acute stress in general, reduces blood pressure, reduces blood sugar, improves insulin sensitivity, reduces the incidence of cancer, diabetes, and heart disease, and improves cognitive ability."

Donald E Colbert MD says "Fasting is another method of detoxification that I recommend frequently. Fasting allows the body to heal by giving it a rest. Fasting gives the digestive tract a much-needed rest, which in turn allows the overburdened liver to 'catch up' on its detoxification work."

Dr. Yuri Nikolayev, director of the fasting unit of the Moscow Psychiatric Institute, reported on the use of scientific, therapeutic fasting to successfully treat over 10,000 patients, all suffering from neuropsychiatric disorders like schizophrenia and various neuroses, concluding: "The hunger treatment [as Soviet psychiatrists term fasting] gives the entire nervous system and the brain a rest. The body is also cleansed of poisons, and the tissues and the various glands are renovated."

Starving is what happens when the body can no longer sustain itself in a healthful manner from it's internal reserves (which includes all of the minerals and vitamins we will need in reserve to carry us through the fast). Fasting is altogether different from starving. If a faster goes to "completion" (aka the return of genuine hunger) and the body is screaming that it's time to eat and he or she continues to abstain from food (almost exclusively where the individual had no choice) only then would that individual be starving. Ideally we will always eat healthy and build substantial mineral and vitamin reserves, but this is especially important before we engage in a long fast.

The way fasting equates to health is that it allows the body a physiological rest and the body is able to do amazing things when provided such a break from digestion, assimilation and the normal eliminative functions enabling it to divert nearly all of its energies towards cleansing and healing.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

And what does "done correctly" mean? There's more to it than just not eating?

haha . I'll let Andrew respond too, but part of it is easing out gradually and healthfully and not rushing into philly cheesesteaks and boxes of twinkees. Another part of it would be to have water-only and nothing else such as vitamin/mineral supplements which are not only unnecessary, but would interfere with achieving optimal results.

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Where does the energy that fuels cellular activity come from? Adenosine Triphosphate (ATP).

Where does ATP come from? Glucose.

And where does this energy come from when the carb stores in the body are depleted? Predominately from our stored fat...

Originally Posted by Buhner

Many of the most dramatic changes that occur in the body during fasting take place on the first three days of the fast. These occur as the body switches from one fuel source to another. Normally, the primary form of energy the body uses for energy is glucose, a type of sugar. Most of this is extracted or converted from the food we eat. Throughout the day, the liver stores excess sugar in a special form called glycogen that it can call on as energy levels fall between meals. There is enough of this sugar source for 8-12 hours of energy and usually, it is completely exhausted within the first 24 hours of fasting. (However, once the body shifts over to ketosis or fat as fuel, this new fuel is used to also restore the
glycogen reserves.)
Once the liver's stores of glycogen are gone, the body begins to shift over to what is called ketosis or ketone production - the use of fatty acids as fuel instead of glucose. This shift generally begins on the second day of fasting and completed by the third.

From: The Health Benefits of Water Fasting by Stephen Harrod Buhner

Originally Posted by Solipsist

The body doesn't have enough energy to do both simultaneously?

Actually it does and it tries it's best, but for most people in today's world the process of eliminating the bad is in deficit and there is a mounting debt. I agree that our bodies are quite amazing, but in my opinion we were not designed to entirely withstand all the crap we are exposed to today...

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

To me, a "toxin" is a substance that is actually toxic or poisonous to the body, like formaldehyde or arsenic. But "alternative health" types like to claim that everything that doesn't grow out of the ground is a "toxin," which isn't exactly true.

Formaldehyde, arsenic, car exhaust, cigarette smoke, pesticides, herbicides, drugs, fluoride and chlorine (in our water), mercury (in our fish), radiation, preservatives, artificial flavors, artificial colors, artificial sweeteners, nitrosamines, msg, household cleaners and other fumes, PFC's (from nonstick cookware), aluminum and lead... just to name a few. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Yes, that is the idea, but I think we must remain skeptical of such leaps of logic. Who says the body is damaged and in need of healing to begin with?

I for one and millions like me who began the fast with ailments and were able to emerge healthy. I know a guy who was diagnosed with leukemia and was told he had 6 months to live. He fasted for 25 days, suffering through horrible detox symptoms which included nausia and black urine... and by the end of his fast he was healed. A few months later he enjoyed a pleasant relatively detox-free 30 day fast and 30 years later he continues to be healthy. All of the people who have had diseases healed in this way know first hand what the human body is capable of accomplishing given a proper physiological rest.

[Cado]

A bit of fasting actually helped me correct issues I had with my body. It normalized my appetite and cleansed a ton of excess mucus which was in my system. Though our bodies are adept at cleansing toxins there are cases where there's so much they can't keep up, and it's no surprise I had a backlog in my system after years of living off soda and fast food.

I agree religious fervor doesn't make any sense. It blinds you to what's really going on and if it's driving you to any kind of behavior it's time to sit down and examine exactly what you're doing. It's a useful tool when you're consciously employing it to conquer a challenge with overwhelming force but outside that context it's destructive.

[aelle]

I tend to agree with the OP. I am a member of a vegan forum where, among other things, talk of cleanses and fasts are explicitely forbidden as they tend to be triggering for people with EDs or in recovery. Wanting to cleanse and detox implies, to me, that you consider your regular food intake dirty or toxic, and that's simply not indicative of a healthy relationship with your food.

[spacecadetglow]

MightySunTzu, I just want to say that I completely respect your opinion, you seem one of the more sane people who does fasting, and I don't discredit you or fasting at all, even. You seem intelligent and well-informed. I don't want to point out specific examples because I'm not comfortable with taking other forum members' posts, without their permission, and using them for my own intellectual exhibition, you know? I'll just say that I have seen many posts where it sadly seems that the person fasting is doing it for the wrong reasons, that's all. It concerns me because I hate seeing a respectable, valuable tool (fasting) being used for ill. And it's sad to me that people on the internet support them in perpetuating what very often constitutes an eating disorder.

I mean, you read these forums too and post in a lot of the threads, wouldn't you agree that what you read does not always strike you as "healthy?" I'm sure a lot of people go into it with a sound, informed opinion but many others do not. This is what concerns me.

[LostMyMap]

MST,
Thanks for the detailed reply.

I read through the Buhner link. That pretty much convinced me not to do it. I don't have that much body fat, and it would not be healthy for me to have less. And I'm sure not giving up any muscle mass. I work hard at keeping what I have.

I have a hard time believing that the body would start consuming foreign bodies for energy, but then I'm not an MD.

For me, the stress hormones and anxiety relating to hunger would probably outdo any other benefits. I think I'll focus more on other areas.

[lap202]

Fasting causes your body to eat away the fats AND muscles in your body. This is all fine and dandy other then the fact that when you eat once again, your body will hold onto the fats you have because it thinks it will need them due to the lack of food.

You may lose weight due to it, but you gain more afterwards. I noticed many people have fasted several times on here. Doesn't make sense... if it worked, would you really need to do it 4 times?

I find it sad when a 5'8, 140 pound is worried about fasting. I am 5'6 and 140 and I feel great. Thin, strong.

I suggest you stay away from it...

[olivetree]

I definitely agree that some people use fasting to cover up an ED, but I've never known anyone to personally do this.

I have fasted three times this year--once in February, once in June, once in October. Each for ten days or less. In general, I have gained back about 3 lbs from each fast (water weight, my guess, because my inches don't change) but have lost on average 7-10 lbs per fast that have STAYED off.

I started the 45 lbs heavier than I am now, and fasting has been a GREAT tool for me in losing that weight. When I am not fasting, I eat a healthy diet--usually stick low carb (not atkins low carb, but refrain from refined sugars and bread), and do cardio 5x week and lift 3x a week.

Soo, for me, it has been a healthy practice --- I seriously sprained my ankle in May 2009, struggled with pain and swelling, but when I fasted in Feb 2010 for ten days, this corrected itself and I have not had any trouble sense and both my ankles are the same size again. I also don't struggle with water retention the same way I used to.

I also haven't yo-yoed and am not afraid of food, nor do I consider it dirty. I love cooking and coming up with fun, healthy new recipes!

So, anyhow, I just wanted to throw that out there and let people know I DO think people can fast for both health and weight loss in a HEALTHY way and it does not have to be a dangerous process. If you end a fast and pig out --- of course your body is going to freak and you'll gain weight, but if you break a fast properly, you really don't have much to worry about.

Anyhow, my doctors are pleased so that's good enough for me.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I don't want to point out specific examples because I'm not comfortable with taking other forum members' posts, without their permission, and using them for my own intellectual exhibition, you know?

Hey spacecadetglow ...

Thank you for your thoughtful reply. Yes i completely get this... i guess i was thinking more in terms of generalities, but you're right that it's hard to do that without implicating anybody.

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I'll just say that I have seen many posts where it sadly seems that the person fasting is doing it for the wrong reasons, that's all.

It concerns me because I hate seeing a respectable, valuable tool (fasting) being used for ill. And it's sad to me that people on the internet support them in perpetuating what very often constitutes an eating disorder.
I mean, you read these forums too and post in a lot of the threads, wouldn't you agree that what you read does not always strike you as "healthy?"

Yes your point is well taken, and i do agree that many people with eating disorders will be attracted to fasting, but it's important to note that the vast majority of people who fast do not have eating disorders. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but your thread title seems to imply that fasting itself is the problem .

As to examples I can think of 7 people who in recent months have fasted for 20 days or longer and documented it within this site and none of them, 0 out of 7, struck me as having any kind of eating disorder or unhealthy reasons for fasting. I agree with you that there's a big contrast between someone who is "Fasting for overall health which includes fat loss whether they want it to or not" and "Fasting for weight loss but could care less about overall health"... and that the 2nd group is concerning.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

MST,
Thanks for the detailed reply.

I read through the Buhner link. That pretty much convinced me not to do it. I don't have that much body fat, and it would not be healthy for me to have less. And I'm sure not giving up any muscle mass. I work hard at keeping what I have.

Hey LostMyMap ,

You're welcome and i'm totally good with that . Seems you are doing quite well without it.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I have a hard time believing that the body would start consuming foreign bodies for energy, but then I'm not an MD.

Yes there are lots of documented examples of tumors getting consumed as the fasting body will preferentially burn the least essential (including the most dangerous) protein sources to meet its relatively modest protein demands (note that fat : protein is consumed at about a 10:1 ratio and that the body has no problem putting the minimally lost muscle back on after the fast as i can well testify through my own experiences.

Originally Posted by Dr. Shelton who supervised 40,000-60,000 water only fasts

The phenomena of fasting supply many examples of the control the body exercises over its autolytic processes. For example, tissues are lost in the inverse order of their usefulness--fat and morbid growths first and then the other tissues.

No more profound change in metabolism is possible than that produced by fasting and the change is of a character best suited to bring about the autolysis of a tumor, malignant or otherwise.

...

A woman, under forty, had a uterine fibroid about the size of an average grapefruit. It was completely absorbed in twenty-eight days of total abstinence from all food but water. This was an unusually rapid rate of absorption."
...

"Tumor-like lumps in female breasts ranging from the size of a pea to that of a goose egg will disappear in from three days to as many weeks. Here is a remarkable case of this kind that will prove both interesting and instructive to the reader. A young lady, age 21, had a large, hard lump--a little smaller than a billiard ball--in her right breast. For four months it had caused her considerable pain. Finally she consulted a physician who diagnosed the condition, cancer, and urged immediate removal. She went to another, and another and still another physician, and each made the same diagnosis and each urged immediate removal. Instead of resorting to surgery the young lady resorted to fasting and in exactly three days without food, the "cancer" and all its attendant pain were gone. There has been no recurrence after twenty-three years and I think that we are justified in considering the condition remedied.

From Dr. Shelton: "The hygienic system, fasting and sun bathing vol III" From chapter 5, "Autolysis": Shelton: Fasting; Chapter V

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

For me, the stress hormones and anxiety relating to hunger would probably outdo any other benefits.

You might be surprised how little anxiety there is once physical hunger vanishes and how extraordinarily peace giving the fast can be, both during and after... Nevertheless, to each his own .

Originally Posted by aelle

Wanting to cleanse and detox implies, to me, that you consider your regular food intake dirty or toxic, and that's simply not indicative of a healthy relationship with your food.

I don't believe it implies that at all Aelle. If the food is healthy, that's not what anybody would be choosing to detox from. It's all this other stuff:

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Formaldehyde, arsenic, car exhaust, cigarette smoke, pesticides, herbicides, drugs, fluoride and chlorine (in our water), mercury (in our fish), radiation, preservatives, artificial flavors, artificial colors, artificial sweeteners, nitrosamines, msg, household cleaners and other fumes, PFC's (from nonstick cookware), aluminum and lead... just to name a few.

I can understand that a vegan websight might want to ban talk of cleanses because it is off topic from what most people are there to talk about and even because a healthful vegan diet (vegetables and fruits not pancakes and french fries) would tend to be very cleansing and healing in itself, though at a much more gradual pace than water only fasting.

Originally Posted by lap202

Fasting causes your body to eat away the fats AND muscles in your body. This is all fine and dandy other then the fact that when you eat once again, your body will hold onto the fats you have because it thinks it will need them due to the lack of food.

First sentence we agree on, fat : protein in about a 10:1 ratio. Second sentence there is no basis in fact.

Originally Posted by lap202

You may lose weight due to it, but you gain more afterwards. I noticed many people have fasted several times on here.

Temporary losses of a lot of water and intestinal content will almost always return, but the lost fat can be kept off with the right post-fast nutritional and exercise program, something i have been able to do when continued fat burning was on my agenda (as opposed to a primary focus of building muscle after my most recent fast since my body fat percentage was already to my delighted satisfaction).

Originally Posted by lap202

Doesn't make sense... if it worked, would you really need to do it 4 times?

Why do people exercise more than once? If it worked, why would it ever need to be repeated? Fasting is no different and we will often require a series of fasts to accomplish our objectives, cleansing/healing and otherwise.

Originally Posted by lap202

I find it sad when a 5'8, 140 pound is worried about fasting. I am 5'6 and 140 and I feel great. Thin, strong.

It's not all about weight, it is foremost about cleansing and healing... and for many people there is a distinct spiritual element.

Originally Posted by olivetree

I definitely agree that some people use fasting to cover up an ED, but I've never known anyone to personally do this.

I have fasted three times this year--once in February, once in June, once in October. Each for ten days or less. In general, I have gained back about 3 lbs from each fast (water weight, my guess, because my inches don't change) but have lost on average 7-10 lbs per fast that have STAYED off.

I started the 45 lbs heavier than I am now, and fasting has been a GREAT tool for me in losing that weight. When I am not fasting, I eat a healthy diet--usually stick low carb (not atkins low carb, but refrain from refined sugars and bread), and do cardio 5x week and lift 3x a week.

Soo, for me, it has been a healthy practice --- I seriously sprained my ankle in May 2009, struggled with pain and swelling, but when I fasted in Feb 2010 for ten days, this corrected itself and I have not had any trouble sense and both my ankles are the same size again. I also don't struggle with water retention the same way I used to.

I also haven't yo-yoed and am not afraid of food, nor do I consider it dirty. I love cooking and coming up with fun, healthy new recipes!

So, anyhow, I just wanted to throw that out there and let people know I DO think people can fast for both health and weight loss in a HEALTHY way and it does not have to be a dangerous process. If you end a fast and pig out --- of course your body is going to freak and you'll gain weight, but if you break a fast properly, you really don't have much to worry about.

Anyhow, my doctors are pleased so that's good enough for me.

Olive, very good post and i completely agree with you on all points.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

I can understand that a vegan websight might want to ban talk of cleanses because it is off topic from what most people are there to talk about and even because a healthful vegan diet (vegetables and fruits not pancakes and french fries) would tend to be very cleansing and healing in itself, though at a much more gradual pace than water only fasting.

No no. It's not banned because it's off topic. It's banned because it's a trigger for disordered eating.
A larger population among vegans than among the general population have a tendency to EDs, a history of EDs or full blown EDs (for good or bad reasons ; they might have been attracted to the vegan diet because it allows them to restrict their food intake, or they might have chosen it because they feel it's easier to recover and be kind to their bodies on a diet that's kind to everyone else). And it is their experience that glorified talks of cleanses, detoxes, fasts and any other drastic food restriction triggers their disorder.

It's not the only topic that's taboo under that policy, by the way. Weight loss challenges and fatphobic talk are banned as well.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Yes there are lots of documented examples of tumors getting consumed as the fasting body will preferentially burn the least essential (including the most dangerous) protein sources to meet its relatively modest protein demands (note that fat : protein is consumed at about a 10:1 ratio and that the body has no problem putting the minimally lost muscle back on after the fast as i can well testify through my own experiences.

As far as I understand, a tumor is still you, that's why your immune system doesn't just get rid of them. I was thinking about what it said about the bacteria or viruses or something that isn't genetically you getting consumed.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Yes your point is well taken, and i do agree that many people with eating disorders will be attracted to fasting, but it's important to note that the vast majority of people who fast do not have eating disorders. Maybe you didn't mean it this way, but your thread title seems to imply that fasting itself is the problem .

Yeah, you're right, and that's the place I was coming from when I originally wrote it. I did use to have an eating disorder myself so I suppose my filters are finely tuned for detecting that. Out of 100 people who fast, I will fixate on the 2 who do it unhealthily, not the other 98. But you're right in pointing out that the majority who do it do not use it for ill.

As to examples I can think of 7 people who in recent months have fasted for 20 days or longer and documented it within this site and none of them, 0 out of 7, struck me as having any kind of eating disorder or unhealthy reasons for fasting. I agree with you that there's a big contrast between someone who is "Fasting for overall health which includes fat loss whether they want it to or not" and "Fasting for weight loss but could care less about overall health"... and that the 2nd group is concerning.

Hey, that's awesome, and very encouraging. I'm glad you're on these forums because you seem like a well-informed, balanced person. Too often are health forums filled with misinformation and zealots. You've opened my eyes in this thread, so thanks.

[stanmrak]

These days, many of the toxins in your body don't have alot of mass; they're chemical compounds like dioxins, pcb, bpa, fluoride, pharmaceuticals, heavy metals, and about 15,000 other chemicals! Traditional fasting does not help your body to eliminate these, and humans over the years have never had to contend with these toxins before, especially so many different ones. That's why I think that traditional fasting is no longer a viable solution.

[Just Passing Through]

The way things are, just about everyone has an eating disorder by default, and it's usually involving over-eating of crap food for purely emotional reasons. Many who have improved their diets are some of the most zealous, fanatical, and obsessed of all about their food intake, even if only in promoting and defending their method. This includes those who month after month, year after year, will pin eating disorders on fasting, like a broken record. Sometimes a little zeal and fanaticism is what it takes to get the ball rolling on some change. Sometimes a lot is needed to make a change.

When someone hasn't discovered fasting and similarly dramatic health improving practices, they're still on 1 side of the fence, sitting pretty and cozy. When someone tries fasting and is astonished to see just how effective it is, they've begun to climb the fence and see the other side. When someone sees how well fasting works, it opens up not only the possibilities, but the probabilities, in their mind, of all sorts of stuff related to healing and healthy living that would be dismissed as insane to the average person.

This is where the problem begins. Quitting junk eating habits is one of the single hardest things anyone can do. Even when someone finally learns definitively that their habits are killing them every day, and that their perceived need for their next fix (oops, I meant meal) is purely emotional, that doesn't change the fact that they are still on the crap eating addiction circuit. Everyone knows crack, heroin and meth are bad for you, but if you're addicted, that doesn't really make much of a difference, now does it? Yea, it's bad for me, now give me my next fix before I go ****ing batshit!

And we all know what happens when we quit using substances (including so called foods which are mostly garbage): the coming off part. The detox. The crash. That terrible let-down called "sobriety". No longer being stimulated and held up with that artificial high.

When someone gets into fasting, gets results, and starts to unveil the truth, they have not crossed the fence. They just climbed up on it. As long as someone is still addicted, they are straddling the fence. We've all seen people climb up fences, then straddle them, afraid to cross over for they may fall. They look pretty stupid and foolish, don't they?

Is it any wonder someone will keep bouncing back between fasting and binging on crap? Fasting is only one part of the equation. Getting rid of the addiction is much harder.

It's easy to criticize someone who's still up on the fence, struggling with their addiction to junk eating. These types of addictions are decades in the making. Is it really a surprise if it takes years to break such an addiction? Yea, they look stupid up their straddling the prison fence. All the inmates down in the yard can point and laugh, they're sittin' pretty on one side, at the ones who are on top of the fence, wanting to get to the other side, but afraid of letting go and falling (letting go of their comfort food/addiction).

All that being said, however, the fence straddling stage can easily be the last of someone's progress, and chew up and spit out those who try to go through this trial. It's easy to lose one's mind in the process, and end up kind of coo coo. The struggle may very well turn out 100 times more nutters than successes.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Just Passing Through

The way things are, just about everyone has an eating disorder by default, and it's usually involving over-eating of crap food for purely emotional reasons. Many who have improved their diets are some of the most zealous, fanatical, and obsessed of all about their food intake, even if only in promoting and defending their method. This includes those who month after month, year after year, will pin eating disorders on fasting, like a broken record. Sometimes a little zeal and fanaticism is what it takes to get the ball rolling on some change. Sometimes a lot is needed to make a change.

When someone hasn't discovered fasting and similarly dramatic health improving practices, they're still on 1 side of the fence, sitting pretty and cozy. When someone tries fasting and is astonished to see just how effective it is, they've begun to climb the fence and see the other side. When someone sees how well fasting works, it opens up not only the possibilities, but the probabilities, in their mind, of all sorts of stuff related to healing and healthy living that would be dismissed as insane to the average person.

This is where the problem begins. Quitting junk eating habits is one of the single hardest things anyone can do. Even when someone finally learns definitively that their habits are killing them every day, and that their perceived need for their next fix (oops, I meant meal) is purely emotional, that doesn't change the fact that they are still on the crap eating addiction circuit. Everyone knows crack, heroin and meth are bad for you, but if you're addicted, that doesn't really make much of a difference, now does it? Yea, it's bad for me, now give me my next fix before I go ****ing batshit!

And we all know what happens when we quit using substances (including so called foods which are mostly garbage): the coming off part. The detox. The crash. That terrible let-down called "sobriety". No longer being stimulated and held up with that artificial high.

When someone gets into fasting, gets results, and starts to unveil the truth, they have not crossed the fence. They just climbed up on it. As long as someone is still addicted, they are straddling the fence. We've all seen people climb up fences, then straddle them, afraid to cross over for they may fall. They look pretty stupid and foolish, don't they?

Is it any wonder someone will keep bouncing back between fasting and binging on crap? Fasting is only one part of the equation. Getting rid of the addiction is much harder.

It's easy to criticize someone who's still up on the fence, struggling with their addiction to junk eating. These types of addictions are decades in the making. Is it really a surprise if it takes years to break such an addiction? Yea, they look stupid up their straddling the prison fence. All the inmates down in the yard can point and laugh, they're sittin' pretty on one side, at the ones who are on top of the fence, wanting to get to the other side, but afraid of letting go and falling (letting go of their comfort food/addiction).

All that being said, however, the fence straddling stage can easily be the last of someone's progress, and chew up and spit out those who try to go through this trial. It's easy to lose one's mind in the process, and end up kind of coo coo. The struggle may very well turn out 100 times more nutters than successes.

This is exactly the type of talk that is triggering to someone with a history of anorexia. Lumping the world into 2 categories: those who eat crap, abuse their bodies and are deluding themselves about how harmful food is vs. those who stop eating and are on their way to Enlightenment™. That's not a helpful (or healthy) view of the world at all, in my opinion.

[spacecadetglow]

I support that, aelle.

Also, someone takes food a liiittle too seriously methinks.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by aelle

No no. It's not banned because it's off topic. It's banned because it's a trigger for disordered eating.
A larger population among vegans than among the general population have a tendency to EDs, a history of EDs or full blown EDs (for good or bad reasons ; they might have been attracted to the vegan diet because it allows them to restrict their food intake, or they might have chosen it because they feel it's easier to recover and be kind to their bodies on a diet that's kind to everyone else). And it is their experience that glorified talks of cleanses, detoxes, fasts and any other drastic food restriction triggers their disorder.

It's not the only topic that's taboo under that policy, by the way. Weight loss challenges and fatphobic talk are banned as well.

Aelle, i stand corrected . I was speculating on what seemed logical, but you know better than me what is going on at these sites.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Just Passing Through

When someone hasn't discovered fasting and similarly dramatic health improving practices, they're still on 1 side of the fence, sitting pretty and cozy.

Waitasecond - so if you don't fast, you eat shite food? You've officially lost credibility.

[Just Passing Through]

Cool, I didn't have any credibility to begin with. I came here with nothing, and I will leave with nothing. I didn't bring any back pack or shoulder pack, and I like walking with my hands free, so I can't really be taking anything with me.

I don't know what to say about those who decide not to eat due to "a psychological disorder characterized by somatic delusions that you are too fat despite being emaciated." Couldn't tell ya anything about it. Don't know what it's like. Personally, I had to force myself to fast more than 2 days, most of the time, and each time was very rewarding to me. I think anyone who discovers first hand the effectiveness of the fast, will know what I'm talking about when it comes to getting up on a fence. The more someone experiments with extended fasting and reduced eating, the more commonly held ideas about health begin to be contradicted with experience. Someone who's already been living in food scarcity, or who is suffering anorexia nervosa, wouldn't have anything to discover. It's those of us who lived every day of our lives with most of our time spent with bellies filled, who have found that reduced eating and extended fasting was the simplest and most effective general solution for failing health. It doesn't cost any money, and doesn't require any special supplies. I'm not going to earn a commission if one of you decides to try it out. If you're a 5' 10" person who weighs 75 pounds and don't want to eat because you feel like a blimp, I can't say anything to you, except what makes you feel this way? Luigi Cornaro implemented greatly reduced eating in failing health by the age of 40, having lived as many of us do, partaking in the pleasure of food, unchecked. He continued for the next 60 years, in excellent health, lamenting that so many of his good friends continued their unchecked eating and died before their time. He found that as he got older, he felt best reducing his daily food intake even further.

This to me is one hell of a discovery someone can make for themselves. So for these people and myself there is a sort of fence with addictive eating on one side and eating only what is necessary on the other. The fence also symbolizes the type of beliefs that are accepted as fact, on one side, and the shattering of these beliefs through the experience of fasting and reduced eating. Luigi Cornaro's writing is peppered with Christian stuff. Perhaps it was his religious fanatacism which enabled him to restrict his food intake so unwaveringly. After all, gluttony is considered sinful. It seems those who fast for religious reasons always succeed in going all the way and doing a real long one. Maybe something can be said for this type of zeal. Although I'm not into it myself, sometimes I think of trying it out for a while just for fun.

Hopefully I didn't lose all my subscribers by now. Oh wait, I didn't have any to begin with

[Just Passing Through]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow;741316I

don't want to point out specific examples because I'm not comfortable with taking other forum members' posts, without their permission, and using them for my own intellectual exhibition, you know? I'll just say that I have seen many posts where it sadly seems that the person fasting is doing it for the wrong reasons, that's all.

Perhaps you could just link the posts without any additional commentary, or link the exact parts of the posts. Remember that all posts on this forum ARE public, and searchable on google. Personally I don't see anything wrong with providing some supplementary commentary if it helps to explain things. After all, what are we here for? Providing some good examples may really help people who are using fasting as another outlet for their ED, to see more clearly what they're doing, when simply being told what they're doing may not really have the same impact. It's kind of like seeing addicts and what they do, as opposed to being told "drugs are bad."

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Hey, that's awesome, and very encouraging. I'm glad you're on these forums because you seem like a well-informed, balanced person. Too often are health forums filled with misinformation and zealots. You've opened my eyes in this thread, so thanks.

Thank you for the kind words spacecadetglow. I am delighted that you are here too .

[AndrewJen]

It seems like your qualm is not with fasting but a percentage of people who feel defensive when the issue is brought to question, but can you blame them? If you had a positive experience doing something and someone questioned you about it in a skeptical manner, you may not personally become defensive but that is some people's inherent reaction.

There might not be reason to be riled up if someone questions your lifestyle, and some religions consider it to be a very private matter. I know for me fasting left me feeling more mentally focused, and very noticeably so, enough to acknowledge one's skepticism but not feel repelled from continuing to fast.

Also I can't argue against you're point that fasting "often" masks eating disorders, but from my network of friends and acquaintances whom fast occasionally, they sure don't seem to have ED's, so I guess I'd want evidence behind a claim like that, even if it's anecdotal.

[spacecadetglow]

The thing is, I don't agree with posting anecdotal evidence from these forums. I am not about to parade around someone's issues as my own psychological case study. I would hate to trigger somebody or call them out, even if I don't use names. I don't feel it's right. Even if, as some of you would probably argue, they're posting online and opening themselves up to criticism, I won't.

If you want anecdotal evidence, I invite you to investigate the forums for yourself and make up your own mind.

[AndrewJen]

Ok, well it seems like your issue is pretty much tied to people within this community, and I don't know how well this community represents the population and those who choose to fast but you've been around much longer so I'm definitely probably missing some info.

Not necessarily trying to call you out, I just can't really seem to tie fasting and eating disorders together although I'm sure it happens, just seemingly not often, but I'll look around and keep an eye out for that correlation, will be interesting.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by AndrewJen

Ok, well it seems like your issue is pretty much tied to people within this community, and I don't know how well this community represents the population and those who choose to fast but you've been around much longer so I'm definitely probably missing some info.

I see no reason to think this community doesn't represent the community of fasters at large. I mean, people who fast are generally interested in improving their health, so a self-improvement website is likely to attract that sort of crowd.

Also, you've been around longer than me.

Not necessarily trying to call you out, I just can't really seem to tie fasting and eating disorders together although I'm sure it happens, just seemingly not often, but I'll look around and keep an eye out for that correlation, will be interesting.

I don't see what's difficult about tying them together. Anorexia = self starvation. Water fasting = self starvation.

If someone is genuinely doing the fast for improving their health, fine. But often this is nothing more than a guise for losing weight.

Again, having had an ED myself, I've said that I am extra sensitive to that tendency. If you haven't lived it, then no, I suppose you wouldn't easily pick up on it.

[AndrewJen]

Ok well I guess because I haven't starved myself for weight-loss reasons I don't have that personal relationship to the issue, but I understand better now.

I'm sure Ive had some form of ed considering I used to weigh 270+ pounds (my license still says 254 and picture looks nothing like me), but concerning weightloss I picked up right away that balance was key, not starvation, so my experience with fasting was pretty strictly to tune in to how my body and mind reacted to the experience.

Wow I have been around longer! Just not actively as I was overwhelmed with the number of posts and threads that interested me and stopped coming, but now I'm only tracking a couple forums here so hopefully I wont feel left behind on the discussions

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by AndrewJen

Ok well I guess because I haven't starved myself for weight-loss reasons I don't have that personal relationship to the issue, but I understand better now.

I'm sure Ive had some form of ed considering I used to weigh 270+ pounds (my license still says 254 and picture looks nothing like me), but concerning weightloss I picked up right away that balance was key, not starvation, so my experience with fasting was pretty strictly to tune in to how my body and mind reacted to the experience.

Wow I have been around longer! Just not actively as I was overwhelmed with the number of posts and threads that interested me and stopped coming, but now I'm only tracking a couple forums here so hopefully I wont feel left behind on the discussions

Sure doesn't sound like an ED! Realizing that balance is the key sounds completely healthy, no matter how much weight you lost. Good for you!

[AndrewJen]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Sure doesn't sound like an ED! Realizing that balance is the key sounds completely healthy, no matter how much weight you lost. Good for you!

I meant before I lost weight, but even then it wasn't an ED thinking back, I was just never taught by my parents how to monitor food intake, just calling something good and bad isnt enough. Journaling ALL my food was the first major step into understanding what was happening.