Vegans and contraceptives/abortion.

[russianrocket]

another thread on here got me thinking. What's the personal opinion on the matter?

Discuss

[MidasGirl]

Just out of curiosity, what's the connection between veganism and those two:abortion and contraceptives?

To answer your question, I'm 1. vegetarian, 2. pro-choice and 3. I can't stand the thought of a contraceptive pill entering my body, but 4. I am for safer sex and 5. I am also for not giving birth like rabbits.

[ginkgo]

I have none.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Just out of curiosity, what's the connection between veganism and those two:abortion and contraceptives?

To answer your question, I'm 1. vegetarian, 2. pro-choice and 3. I can't stand the thought of a contraceptive pill entering my body, but 4. I am for safer sex and 5. I am also for not giving birth like rabbits.

Because most of the vegans I've encountered, have this thing about preserving life in all situations. Plus, I've always gotten the whole " why would you eat eggs, those are baby chickens!".

So to me, it only made sense that a vegan would be against abortion and possibly contraceptives, depending on how deep they were in their beliefs. Tho it's not like I haven't met complete hypocrisy from so many I've spoken to on the issue.



I mean, I get it, it's a tough subject. You have to balance out the idea that every living thing has rights, all the while also saying that a women has rights over her body. I was just kinda wondering where the lines were drawn.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

I eat meat and my 2 year old is my contraceptive device (lol)...

but I have to say I'm slightly offended at the leap of logic required to associate a human infant with the food that I eat...then again that's because I eat meat.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I eat meat and my 2 year old is my contraceptive device (lol)...

but I have to say I'm slightly offended at the leap of logic required to associate a human infant with the food that I eat...then again that's because I eat meat.

It's not associating food that you eat with a human infant. It is associating life with life. Unless you are saying that all vegans care about is what is used for food? Vegans are also against leather and many other things


But now that you brought that up, I'm not sure if this belongs in the health section or not.

[MidasGirl]

Ah ok. Well, if you said people could abort babies so as to eat them, then you might have a problem.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Because most of the vegans I've encountered, have this thing about preserving life in all situations. Plus, I've always gotten the whole " why would you eat eggs, those are baby chickens!".

So to me, it only made sense that a vegan would be against abortion and possibly contraceptives, depending on how deep they were in their beliefs. Tho it's not like I haven't met complete hypocrisy from so many I've spoken to on the issue.



I mean, I get it, it's a tough subject. You have to balance out the idea that every living thing has rights, all the while also saying that a women has rights over her body. I was just kinda wondering where the lines were drawn.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

It's not associating food that you eat with a human infant. It is associating life with life.

Well I'm just letting you know what popped into my head when I read the thread title, m'dear.

But on topic, I feel I have no say in what other women do regarding their own pregnancies. Personally I have not and could not have an abortion, but that has nothing to do with my beliefs about nutrition and everything to do with my personal experience as a human being.

But it's not so cut and dried - just because I eat meat does not mean I consume thoughtlessly, or that I don't honor the animal that I am consuming. There is this myth I think that omnivores don't care about animals.

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

But now that you brought that up, I'm not sure if this belongs in the health section or not.

Abortion is always in politics dear.

Nothing gets people heated and riled up more than this subject.

[Sain Outre Longfang]

1. Omnivore
2. I think only rape victems should have the choice.
I'm not paying for some woman with no morals to keep ejecting carcasses out of herself, just because she doesn't want a kid. I could have been one of those. Even if they pay themselves, it's a sh1ty thing to do IMO.
3. I believe in family planing......like, as in "ahead of time".


.......time to break out the surfboard.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Ah ok. Well, if you said people could abort babies so as to eat them, then you might have a problem.

He's asking so he can criticize veganism (which he clearly doesn't understand), what is sounds like to me. I never got how people could believe that a non-sentient being (fetus) deserves more rights than a sentient one (i.e., a cow). Almost every "pro-life" person takes this stance.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Well I'm just letting you know what popped into my head when I read the thread title, m'dear.

But on topic, I feel I have no say in what other women do regarding their own pregnancies. Personally I have not and could not have an abortion, but that has nothing to do with my beliefs about nutrition and everything to do with my personal experience as a human being.

But it's not so cut and dried - just because I eat meat does not mean I consume thoughtlessly, or that I don't honor the animal that I am consuming. There is this myth I think that omnivores don't care about animals.

Well, it's not a myth. Most omnivores that I know, really don't care about animals. Unless it's their dog or cat... You think anyone in a fast food place actually cares about the treatment of the animals they are eating. Vegans have one thing correct, that most people don't think twice, or don't wanna know where their meat comes from. Whether or not it actually matters where the meat comes from, is a whole other matter, but it is no myth that omnivores are heavy in the " I don't wanna know" category, which is kinda worse then knowing and not caring. Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

also, I'm asking about vegans opinions, and while I value your opinion as an individual, your opinion doesn't count in the context of this thread. lol j/k

I'm pro meat and pro choice by the way.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

He's asking so he can criticize veganism (which he clearly doesn't understand), what is sounds like to me. I never got how people could believe that a non-sentient being (fetus) deserves more rights than a sentient one (i.e., a cow). Almost every "pro-life" person takes this stance.

Look, I'm not going to speak for pro-life people, but this is just a sweeping generalization, and if you allow this belief to continue in your mind then you are just as dogmatic as the people that you oppose.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

He's asking so he can criticize veganism (which he clearly doesn't understand), what is sounds like to me. I never got how people could believe that a non-sentient being (fetus) deserves more rights than a sentient one (i.e., a cow). Almost every "pro-life" person takes this stance.

sure, you can pretend like you can read my mind, or you can give me YOUR definition of sentient being... Seeing how peoples idea of that term vary so wildly.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Well, it's not a myth. Most omnivores that I know, really don't care about animals. Unless it's their dog or cat... You think anyone in a fast food place actually cares about the treatment of the animals they are eating. Vegans have one thing correct, that most people don't think twice, or don't wanna know where their meat comes from. Whether or not it actually matters where the meat comes from, is a whole other matter, but it is no myth that omnivores are heavy in the " I don't wanna know" category, which is kinda worse then knowing and not caring. Ignorance is bliss, as they say. .

Oh sweet jebus.

I don't participate in discussions that involve sweeping generalizations from all sides.

"Most people this, most people that." I'm outta heeeeeeeere.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Oh sweet jebus.

I don't participate in discussions that involve sweeping generalizations from all sides.

"Most people this, most people that." I'm outta heeeeeeeere.

oh come on. You really think that a majority of people who eat meat, seeing how most of it comes from slaughter houses, actually care about the treatment of the animals? MAJORITY of meat comes from slaughter houses, and there is not one slaughter house that I've seen with what people " consider" humane treatment of animals. Generalizations abound, but it's not like I said all omnivores. Using the word most, I feel is very valid, just by sheer statistical analysis.

[aelle]

For me being a vegan is about reducing suffering and oppression and has nothing to do with "life". Case in point: I eat plenty of things that live, as long as they can't suffer.
I am also pro choice, and pro willing euthanasia.

I believe I have explained my stance before:

Originally Posted by aelle

Nope, I'm vegan and pro-abortion rights. And I do see a clear parallel between the 2 issues, but not the way you put it in your post.
The isolated events of eating an egg or aborting a fetus don't have much in common at all: eggs are unfertilized and comparable to menses, not fetuses. But the greater context share many similarities.

By buying eggs (that weren't laid by pet chickens), you financially support and maintain a system that is oppressive and cruel to animals. You treat animals as products that can be owned and used for profit, not as sentient beings whose well being should come first.

By restricting access to abortion, or to body choices in general, you maintain a patriarcal system that is oppressive to women. You treat women as irresponsible creatures who should be punished for sex, not as reasonable people whose freedom to make conscious choices should come first. (Incidentally, your gender doesn't matter when it comes to restricting other people's choices.)

I see no contradiction in being both a vegan and a feminist, in working against both speciesm and patriarchy. I'm for the end of all oppressions.

Originally Posted by aelle

As a side note and to address several points made in this thread, the pro-life vs. pro-choice polarity (a phrase coined by the media first) does not really represent either point of view.

As far as I understand it, pro choice vegans (who often also favor gay rights, women's rights and oppose rascism, death penalty, classism, sometimes also organised religions) see it as an issue of oppression. Through this lens, all these issues are aligned as a defense of all the groups who are granted less rights (legally or out of habits or societal pressure).

Pro-life people, who are often pro-organised religions, pro-conservative values, pro death penalty and oppose gay rights, sometimes women's rights, see it as an issue of family values. Abortion destroys traditional family values; killing criminals protects the traditional family unit.

As you can see in none of these lenses are actually much about life.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

" why would you eat eggs, those are baby chickens!"

Try again.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by aelle

Try again.

Try what again?

[aelle]

Eggs aren't baby chickens, and it's not what you've "always" gotten from vegans - on these boards only, plenty of people know that and have given explanations of their decisions not to eat eggs based on more than "cute baby chickens!" Steve has blogged lengthily about it too.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by aelle

Eggs aren't baby chickens, and it's not what you've "always" gotten from vegans - on these boards only, plenty of people know that and have given explanations of their decisions not to eat eggs based on more than "cute baby chickens!" Steve has blogged lengthily about it too.

check out the post
Milk Builds Strong Bones?

Oh and, I don't eat "modern nazi" raised eggs ( one of his more absurd articles), as I get mine from a farm, yet I'm still told I can't eat eggs BECAUSE THEY ARE BABY CHICKENS. So yes, I "always" get it from vegans.

[supertom]

I think you can add sperm to the discussion, letting all those sperm die just for a bit of pleasure, i wonder how that sits with vegans.

[aelle]

Well of course if you're going to quote Ginko...

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by aelle

Well of course if you're going to quote Ginko...

I know I know lol.

oh and I also added some more to my post before you responded.

[Savage]

There's a fascinating explanation on the long-term impact of outlawing abortion in the book Freakonomics, which showed a strong connection between anti-abortion and crime. In other words, if people want abortions and can't get them and are forced to have those children anyway, a lot more of those kids become criminals in their teens and 20s, and the crime rate goes up measurably. So the prediction is that if abortion were ever outlawed, we could expect a major surge in crime, beginning about 20 years later. And the book shares data about a country that did just that and how devastating it was a couple decades later.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

There's a fascinating explanation on the long-term impact of outlawing abortion in the book Freakonomics, which showed a strong connection between anti-abortion and crime. In other words, if people want abortions and can't get them and are forced to have those children anyway, a lot more of those kids become criminals in their teens and 20s, and the crime rate goes up measurably. So the prediction is that if abortion were ever outlawed, we could expect a major surge in crime, beginning about 20 years later. And the book shares data about a country that did just that and how devastating it was a couple decades later.

Awesome I've always wanted to get a response by you on one of my threads or post.

Definitely going to have to look into that book, thanks.

[Sain Outre Longfang]

As this is the health board, i'll ask the question that I think is pertanent.

Is abortion healthy? Mentally and physically?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

As this is the health board, i'll ask the question that I think is pertanent.

Is abortion healthy? Mentally or physically?

at the same time, is having a child who you are not ready for mentally, physically, emotionally, and or financial, healthy for you mentally and physically? And is it good for the babies current and future well being?

[Sain Outre Longfang]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

at the same time, is having a child who you are not ready for mentally, physically, emotionally, and or financial, healthy for you mentally and physically? And is it good for the babies current and future well being?

Good question. I think I turned out fine.
My mother was 16, father had no job, and I spent most of my life in poverty helping raise my two siblings, untill I joined the military got a real job and became financially independant.
There have been quite a few geniuses from hard-luck backgrounds.
So you have to ask yourself, "Would I be here today, if abortion was the norm 20-40 years ago?".
Would you?
Can you be sure?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

Good question. I think I turned out fine.
My mother was 16, father had no job, and I spent most of my life in poverty helping raise my two siblings, untill I joined the military got a real job and became financially independant.
There have been quite a few geniuses from hard-luck backgrounds.
So you have to ask yourself, "Would I be here today, if abortion was the norm 20-40 years ago?".
Would you?
Can you be sure?

I've never been to fond of anything resembling the ole " but if you were aborted, you wouldn't be here today!" lol well, in that case I really wouldn't care, now would I .

Yes, quite a few geniuses have come from hard luck backgrounds. But that's a broad speculation, as you don't know if the percentage is the same. For all you know, all the geniuses born to normal families, just never stood out as much. But the ones who came from a tough road, stood out more in the eyes of people, because it comes off as more of an accomplishment.

Are there relatively more geniuses born into hard luck backgrounds vs normal? The same? Less? Could be only a small percentage of hard luck cases actually become geniuses, and living in a stable life would have spurred even more of them. But, if every single person who was ever meant to die, was alive today.... well, it would be the same as speculating what would happen if more people aborted their child. What if they aborted Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc? But wait, what if they aborted Einsten and... well you get the point.

My parents wanted a kid, and they were in their late 30's, so yes I would be here today .