Vegans and contraceptives/abortion.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by votoshka

It's very difficult...and it's important also to realize that everyone has a valid point of view, even if you don't agree with it.

Very true. Hard sometimes, but important to remember.

I went through a stage when I was younger (think teens) of thinking abortion was okay, I didn't think of the deeper ramifications of what it was or what it meant,more of a "If I got pregnant I'd have an abortion otherwise my parents would kick me out on the streets blah blah". Then I got a bit older, started to think more about having babies, kids etc. and went totally anti abortion "abortion is MURDERING BABIES!!!" kinda thought process.

I actually had the opposite to this. When I was younger, and I fell pregnant at 17, I found abortion to be a liberating option, and I knew I wasn't ready for kids or able to give a child what she/he needed. Only in the last few years have I caught myself internally calling myself a "baby killer" and recognizing this as literally true. I did what I thought was best at the time, for the child and for me. There were complications which I won't go into here, but basically, it ruined my life for a few years afterwards, so maybe that was my karma, or something...? It's not a pretty thing, abortion, and it's definately NOT an easy decision to make or follow through on. Anyone who thinks it is is tripping.

Then I read an article about abandoned babies, who were dumped in trash bags, or left out in the snow to freeze to death. My immediate thought was "OMG why didn't those stupid women just have abortions???!!" So there ya go, pro abortion thinking from anti abortionist!

Abortionist seem like Knights in shining armour when it comes to scenarios like this, don't they?

I find it more offensive that there are people out there who still dictate what you CAN and CAN'T do with your own body.

Amen to that. It's unreal!

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

I'm only thinking logicly hon, if a train's coming through, get on it, not under it.
.....lol
And natural abortions are hardly a choice. I don't see what that has to do with my sweet future abortion clinic? -_-;

I had missed your edit. I was not talking about miscarriages.

[syntaxerror]

i'm a vegan liberal atheist, but people are surprised when i say that i am pro life. people seem to assume that atheist = pro choice all the way. i do believe in using contraceptives, but my main reason for being pro life is that once a fetus is formed, it really is a living thing. perhaps it rings strongly with me because i was supposed to be aborted, but a last minute decision led to my birth. other than that, i see little other correlation between being vegan and being pro choice.

[olivetree]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Well, it's not a myth. Most omnivores that I know, really don't care about animals. Unless it's their dog or cat...

While this may be true to some extent, there are many exceptions to this rule (and i think growingly so)... I and my whole "friend group" only eat local meats from farms that we know where they came from. Yes, these animals are still killed, but they aren't injected with anything, nor abused in the process. Thankfully, we have a WONDERFUL farmers market and lots of options around here. Yay, midwest! It definitely takes some research and is a bit more expensive, but totally worth it in my opinion for many reasons - health, ethical, etc.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by olivetree

While this may be true to some extent, there are many exceptions to this rule (and i think growingly so)... I and my whole "friend group" only eat local meats from farms that we know where they came from. Yes, these animals are still killed, but they aren't injected with anything, nor abused in the process. Thankfully, we have a WONDERFUL farmers market and lots of options around here. Yay, midwest! It definitely takes some research and is a bit more expensive, but totally worth it in my opinion for many reasons - health, ethical, etc.

I agree, I associate with plenty of omnivores, and most of them DO care about animals. I certainly did when I was an omnivore. Not just dogs and cats but all animals. I used to rescue bugs and spiders and small critters from my home!

I stopped eating meat when I could no longer live with my own hypocrisy Still, I tend not to associate with people who care little for animals, as we really don't see eye to eye.

I think for many it's not that they don't care, it's that they sort of hide themselves from the reality of what they're doing when they eat meat, and they believe that they MUST eat meat to be healthy. So while they care about animals, they still believe they are doing what is natural (and I'm not going to dispute that).

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by syntaxerror

i'm a vegan liberal atheist, but people are surprised when i say that i am pro life. people seem to assume that atheist = pro choice all the way. i do believe in using contraceptives, but my main reason for being pro life is that once a fetus is formed, it really is a living thing. perhaps it rings strongly with me because i was supposed to be aborted, but a last minute decision led to my birth. other than that, i see little other correlation between being vegan and being pro choice.

I'm not religious at all either, so religions don't form the basis of my pro life beliefs, not sure I'm an athiest, but certainly agnostic. I don't give a crap about what the church says is right and wrong, I decide for myself!

I also look at my kids and see the wonderful individuals they are and am saddened by how many potential kids never had the chance to experience life! I am so glad I was never in a position where I may have had an abortion when I was younger (because if I'd been a pregnant teen, odds are that's what I would have done...). I would have spent the rest of my life wondering about that life I'd snuffed out, and probably felt guilty forever more!

[MidasGirl]

Originally Posted by votoshka

I also look at my kids and see the wonderful individuals they are and am saddened by how many potential kids never had the chance to experience life!

Well, this can be a slippery slope though. I've an aunt who (had mental illness) would get horrible nightmares from the guilt of all the "babies" she had killed every month because of being on contraceptives.

I figure that those kids that are here on earth are the ones that were meant to be. Why be sad about "potential kids" when the earth is overflowing with many here who have nobody to feed them?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Well, this can be a slippery slope though. I've an aunt who (had mental illness) would get horrible nightmares from the guilt of all the "babies" she had killed every month because of being on contraceptives.

I figure that those kids that are here on earth are the ones that were meant to be. Why be sad about "potential kids" when the earth is overflowing with many here who have nobody to feed them?

I needed this reminder right now MG. I was starting to feel quite a lot of despair actually because of this thread. It brought up some memories for me that I would have preferred stayed dormant.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

Well, this can be a slippery slope though. I've an aunt who (had mental illness) would get horrible nightmares from the guilt of all the "babies" she had killed every month because of being on contraceptives.

I figure that those kids that are here on earth are the ones that were meant to be. Why be sad about "potential kids" when the earth is overflowing with many here who have nobody to feed them?

Well, you said what i was going to say. Where is the sadness for all the kids who are on this earth? They sure as hell are suffering a lot more then those aborted fetuses, that's for sure. I can't imagine the guilt she's living with over those 100,000,000 or so kids who are starving right now.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

I figure that those kids that are here on earth are the ones that were meant to be.

My thoughts exactly.

Originally Posted by elucidate

I needed this reminder right now MG. I was starting to feel quite a lot of despair actually because of this thread. It brought up some memories for me that I would have preferred stayed dormant.

Well if you're anything like me you've heard all you had to hear from judgies-van-holier-than-thou over the few years following you NOT being ABLE to offer a DECENT life and lots of LOVE to your potential kid (you were 17 for heaven sake). If you want a release session about the event we can share experiences over a ....glass of mulled wine on Friday?

[olivetree]

Originally Posted by votoshka

I agree, I associate with plenty of omnivores, and most of them DO care about animals. I certainly did when I was an omnivore. Not just dogs and cats but all animals. I used to rescue bugs and spiders and small critters from my home!

I stopped eating meat when I could no longer live with my own hypocrisy Still, I tend not to associate with people who care little for animals, as we really don't see eye to eye.

I think for many it's not that they don't care, it's that they sort of hide themselves from the reality of what they're doing when they eat meat, and they believe that they MUST eat meat to be healthy. So while they care about animals, they still believe they are doing what is natural (and I'm not going to dispute that).

I don't quite agree. I see no hypocrisy in it. I personally do NOT believe it is wrong to kill and eat an animal if it is not done in a torcherous way. I do not believe all life is equal, and I do not believe that animals should have the same rights as humans.

I do however believe that abuse is wrong, for many reasons, to both humans and animals.

So, for me, there is no hypocrisy - but it's simply because our views on the value of animals are different.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by olivetree

I don't quite agree. I see no hypocrisy in it. I personally do NOT believe it is wrong to kill and eat an animal if it is not done in a torcherous way. I do not believe all life is equal, and I do not believe that animals should have the same rights as humans.

I do however believe that abuse is wrong, for many reasons, to both humans and animals.

So, for me, there is no hypocrisy - but it's simply because our views on the value of animals are different.

Nothing to agree or disagree with My opinions aren't everyone's opinions, and I respect that. My point of view is just that - MY point of view. To ME if I'm gonna go rescuing a spider in my house because I don't want it to die, then I sure as heck shouldn't be eating animals for food.

As you say, you don't believe animals should have the same rights as humans, and that's fair enough. That's your belief. But it isn't mine


PS I hope in this thread my responses didn't touch too many raw nerves. Again, I'm only trying to state how *I* feel about abortion etc. I don't cast judgement on those who have had abortions, especially when "there but for the grace of God go I..." (No I'm not religious...but you get the point??!). My views have changed over the years, but there's always a gut emotional response to all my beliefs - I'm not driven by 100% logic

[olivetree]

Originally Posted by votoshka

Nothing to agree or disagree with My opinions aren't everyone's opinions, and I respect that. My point of view is just that - MY point of view. To ME if I'm gonna go rescuing a spider in my house because I don't want it to die, then I sure as heck shouldn't be eating animals for food.

As you say, you don't believe animals should have the same rights as humans, and that's fair enough. That's your belief. But it isn't mine


PS I hope in this thread my responses didn't touch too many raw nerves. Again, I'm only trying to state how *I* feel about abortion etc. I don't cast judgement on those who have had abortions, especially when "there but for the grace of God go I..." (No I'm not religious...but you get the point??!). My views have changed over the years, but there's always a gut emotional response to all my beliefs - I'm not driven by 100% logic

It's all good. I was just clearing up from what I said, wanted to share my side of the coin too. I appreciate your open mind about others opinions.

Your responses hit no raw nerves with me. I didn't even mention a thing about abortion in this thread (a subject I find is futile to *debate* - everyone has 'their opinion' and no one will be persuaded by words on a screen - I simply live my life in such a way that I support my opinion through my lifestyle and actions).

[Weena]

Originally Posted by votoshka

PS I hope in this thread my responses didn't touch too many raw nerves. Again, I'm only trying to state how *I* feel about abortion etc. I don't cast judgement on those who have had abortions, especially when "there but for the grace of God go I..." (No I'm not religious...but you get the point??!). My views have changed over the years, but there's always a gut emotional response to all my beliefs - I'm not driven by 100% logic

At this stage I would never even think of aborting an accidental pregnancy but this is because I have a lovely husband and two lovely children and the financial means to welcome a "surprise".

Your opinion does not make me feel anything, I totally understand your point of view, and everyone's point of view in this thread... I had over nine years to get over it anyway, and heard all the dumbest judgments possible (religion, pop psychology, spiritual... it comes down to this: if i had gone through this, the child would be a social case, would feel unwanted and would very likely have been physically abused by the father, even maybe starting during the pregnancy! And I would not now be with a wonderful partner who is also the best father possible for my two wonderful little children...So nobody will be able to guilt trip me, ever) . And I'm sure lots of people went through it but just don't want to talk about it, which is pretty normal. I'm kind of glad that Elucidate came out of the abortion closet, I feel less alone in the matter.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Weena

My thoughts exactly.



Well if you're anything like me you've heard all you had to hear from judgies-van-holier-than-thou over the few years following you NOT being ABLE to offer a DECENT life and lots of LOVE to your potential kid (you were 17 for heaven sake). If you want a release session about the event we can share experiences over a ....glass of mulled wine on Friday?

Mulled wine makes everything better. I'm in... See you then.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by votoshka

PS I hope in this thread my responses didn't touch too many raw nerves. Again, I'm only trying to state how *I* feel about abortion etc. I don't cast judgement on those who have had abortions, especially when "there but for the grace of God go I..." (No I'm not religious...but you get the point??!). My views have changed over the years, but there's always a gut emotional response to all my beliefs - I'm not driven by 100% logic

I realize it's your opinion here, and that isn't what touched my raw nerve at all. I like to see things from other peoples point of view though, and it made me think about my experience and how it affected me in the long term when I read some of the views here. But it's all good. Getting to see how different people think and where their views stem from is interesting for me.

I still don't think I was in any position to offer my child everything he or she needed at 17, so I don't regret what I did, and I'm not one of these people who think that a woman is "a good woman" for sacrificing her own life for the life of someone else, and give them respect for it...that's a notion of false heroism and Martyrdom that doesn't sit well with me at all. My life is just as important as another persons life is...including a childs. I don't see that as 'childish', I see it as being responsable enough to realize you aren't ready to have a child and can't give them what they need, because you yourself are still a child. Anyone who can't see that must be pretty narrow in their thinking.

Sometimes it's a good thing to be selfish, and I have thought about all the millions of kids who are stuck here in deplorable life circumstances because their parents were too ignorant and broke to get an abortion, so they have to suffer. I've felt sad for every single one of them over the years, and I have no more sadness left in me. There are too many things in the world to get sad about, and I've been sad for long enough.

I guess I was feeling a bit sensitive to the memories that came up for me from the past. I feel better today though.

It's been a very revealing thread though, as far as where individuals on this forum stand on this issue, and why. It certainly opened my eyes up to certain peoples attitudes round here.
It never ceases to amaze me how ignorant, insensitive and judgemental people can be, especially when their self-righteousness kicks in, regardless of whether they know the full story or not of each individual case.

[LunInSpectra]

• Vegans seem to be vegans by choice
• Thus, Pro-Choice
• QED

Thank you, thank you

[Andrew Brunelle]

If I were a vegan, or a meat eater, or a vegetarian, I doubt my views on abortion would change. Being a man, I really don't have a choice, but a woman always does. I guess it is because she is carrying the baby, but I find that if the man doesn't want the child and the woman does, he is out of luck. When it is the other way around, with the woman wanting an abortion and the man wanting the child, the woman can go ahead and have the abortion.

I feel that there should be equal or at least close to equal abortion rights between potential mother and father. They both equally contributed to the pregnancy, didn't they? At least most of the time..

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I feel that there should be equal or at least close to equal abortion rights between potential mother and father. They both equally contributed to the pregnancy, didn't they? At least most of the time..

They both contributed to conception, but the pregnancy (medically pregnancy starts at implantation) is between mother and fetus.

[Mabel]

My diet: Vegetarian

Abortion: Against it

Death Penalty: Against it

Unnatural measures to keep people alive if they are in a vegetative state: Against it

[hydroxide]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

So to me, it only made sense that a vegan would be against abortion and possibly contraceptives, depending on how deep they were in their beliefs. Tho it's not like I haven't met complete hypocrisy from so many I've spoken to on the issue.

Is the vegan forcing everyone else to be vegan? No? They are ok with omnivores and vegetarians, right?

It's totally consistent to be a pro-choice vegan. They want to give other people the CHOICE whether or not to have an abortion, and the CHOICE of what diet to pursue.

Same applies for voluntary/willing euthanasia. And, for that matter, suicide of "healthy" people.

A pro-choice person may never dream of having an abortion herself! It's about what you think other people should have the option of doing. Not even what you think they should do, because that's up to them. Pro-choice doesn't mean we abort all pregnancies for teh lulz, or because it's fun, or ... .

What is oft-mentioned, and more logically sound, is the OTHER WAY around: people who are "pro-life" should be anti-death penalty, anti-war, and vegan unless they consider human life and non-human animal life to be unequal - and even then, there is the issue of plant life. But you have to eat something. So there is an implication that man has dominion over all other life on the planet, but the other option is to let ourselves starve as a species.

Contraceptives prevent conception. Even if you are of the view that life begins at conception, if conception is prevented, then life is not even started - and hence, cannot be terminated.

For the record, I'm pro not telling other people what to do. Veggie because I don't like the taste of meat, nothing ethical about it. Before someone tells me to "keep my legs shut", I should also say that I'm asexual.

[russianrocket]

vegans ok with omnivores? lol give me a break. Do you pay attention to just how many outspoken vegans there are that want everyone to stop eating meat? That buy ad time for commercial after commercial to guilt us into becoming vegans?

Vegans usually want the whole world to see the light and become vegans, because it's the best for the planet. Not all, but the ones that you ever hear from, are usually the ones that do. Obviously, ones who don't, would normally be pretty quiet. It's turning into nothing more then another religion. If you want to argue health, go ahead, but when you get into morals? THAT'S RELIGION.

oh and, sperm are alive too, and wasting them for no other reason then to get pleasure, can be considered wasteful by many.

It is very logical for me to point out vegans beleiving in abortion. I'm not exactly pro pro-life either tho. Both are hypocrits in my eyes.

[hydroxide]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

vegans ok with omnivores? lol give me a break. Do you pay attention to just how many outspoken vegans there are that want everyone to stop eating meat? That buy ad time for commercial after commercial to guilt us into becoming vegans?

Vegans usually want the whole world to see the light and become vegans, because it's the best for the planet.

Guess I've met different vegans than you have - none of them would even dream of legislating that everyone must follow their diet. Not one. I'm sorry you've met the ones that badger you though, I've only seen those online behind the veil of anonymity.

Edit: Vegan commercial...? I didn't even know those exist. Again, we've had vastly different experiences, and my experience is what shaped my post.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by hydroxide

Guess I've met different vegans than you have - none of them would even dream of legislating that everyone must follow their diet. Not one. I'm sorry you've met the ones that badger you though, I've only seen those online behind the veil of anonymity.

Edit: Vegan commercial...? I didn't even know those exist. Again, we've had vastly different experiences, and my experience is what shaped my post.

you've never heard of peta or see any of their ads, or seen how many vegans thoroughly support peta? That's just ONE example. You can see many on this board as well.

[aelle]

But there is no mass movement lobbying to outlaw meat/dairy farming, and no one shoots slaughter house workers in the head.

The vegans I know are all about distributing cupcakes and making the yummiest non dairy cheese possible. They work to make veganism more appealing, not to make meat eating impossible, illegal or dangerous.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

you've never heard of peta or see any of their ads, or seen how many vegans thoroughly support peta?

This one certainly doesn't!

[russianrocket]

Banner Ads | Vegan Outreach
Free Range Humans - Disturbing Pro-Vegan Ads
United Poultry Concerns’ “Go Vegan!” Ads Hit Washington DC Metro Cars in April and May
Pro-Veg Ads to Air Nationwide TV!

I can go on and on and on. How often do you see, anti vegan ads? or pro meat ads? Non, because we aren't organized or care what vegans eat.

[elucidate]

Militant vegans are a plenty, but it's comforting to know that there are a portion of the vegan population that are actually quite intelligent and know that cramming their views down peoples throats is about as useful as tits on a bull! I've met about 3 vegans like this, so that opened my eyes quite a bit. They DO exist.

Originally Posted by russianrocket

vegans ok with omnivores? lol give me a break. Do you pay attention to just how many outspoken vegans there are that want everyone to stop eating meat? That buy ad time for commercial after commercial to guilt us into becoming vegans?

Vegans usually want the whole world to see the light and become vegans, because it's the best for the planet. Not all, but the ones that you ever hear from, are usually the ones that do. Obviously, ones who don't, would normally be pretty quiet. It's turning into nothing more then another religion. If you want to argue health, go ahead, but when you get into morals? THAT'S RELIGION.

oh and, sperm are alive too, and wasting them for no other reason then to get pleasure, can be considered wasteful by many.

It is very logical for me to point out vegans beleiving in abortion. I'm not exactly pro pro-life either tho. Both are hypocrits in my eyes.

[hydroxide]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

you've never heard of peta or see any of their ads, or seen how many vegans thoroughly support peta? That's just ONE example. You can see many on this board as well.

As I said: "none of them would even dream of legislating that everyone must follow their diet"

I've seen PETA on my campus, but there's usually one maniac standing around and yelling... they don't look all that organized. I guess here (Canada) is different.

It is very logical for me to point out vegans beleiving in abortion

Sure, the vegans you are talking about, not the ones I was. From what you're saying they might as well be different groups.

Also, I wanted to say that if (SOME) vegans are going by "Veganism is best for the environment", then less people are also good for the environment, which once again goes against forced birthing.

So. It seems to depend on the individual vegan, and also, the reasons for their veganism.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by hydroxide

As I said: "none of them would even dream of legislating that everyone must follow their diet"

I've seen PETA on my campus, but there's usually one maniac standing around and yelling... they don't look all that organized. I guess here (Canada) is different.



Sure, the vegans you are talking about, not the ones I was. From what you're saying they might as well be different groups.

Also, I wanted to say that if (SOME) vegans are going by "Veganism is best for the environment", then less people are also good for the environment, which once again goes against forced birthing.

So. It seems to depend on the individual vegan, and also, the reasons for their veganism.

No, not really. ALL life is sacred. Waste not be not. If it's for ethical reasons, then being pro choice is hypocritical. If it's a health choice for themselves, then have all the abortions you want. If you are concerned with animal suffering, and are pro choice, you are a hypocrite.

You are in Canada, and Canadians are fairly different. Peta is very organized and very big.

When vegans go for best for the environment, it's not that they want the trees to survive. They want all living creatures to survive. And a fetus is a living creature, is it not? And it is kinda killing it. I don't really see it as a human, but I also eat all the animals I want, as I don't see them as our equals either. Many vegans see them as our equals, and argue speciesim.

oh and everyone who is part of peta, would LOVE to legislate something that would stop all the slaughter houses. You are fooling yourself if you don't think that.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

No, not really. ALL life is sacred. Waste not be not. If it's for ethical reasons, then being pro choice is hypocritical. If it's a health choice for themselves, then have all the abortions you want. If you are concerned with animal suffering, and are pro choice, you are a hypocrite.

You are in Canada, and Canadians are fairly different. Peta is very organized and very big.

When vegans go for best for the environment, it's not that they want the trees to survive. They want all living creatures to survive. And a fetus is a living creature, is it not? And it is kinda killing it. I don't really see it as a human, but I also eat all the animals I want, as I don't see them as our equals either. Many vegans see them as our equals, and argue speciesim.

oh and everyone who is part of peta, would LOVE to legislate something that would stop all the slaughter houses. You are fooling yourself if you don't think that.

Have you even read this thread? I think we established veganism isn't about "life" on page 1.