Vegans and contraceptives/abortion.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

That reeks of sacasim.......
.....it hurts when you say things like that Rocket. *cries*

actually no sarcasm AT ALL.

And while what I just said might sound sarcastic as well, it also wasn't. Damn, nothing I say right now can come off as non sarcastic. Just take my word for it, that I was serious.

[Weena]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

And believe it or not, a child is far more important than you sh1tty "future plans".
What kind of "future" doesn't include children? You sound like a child yourself when you say such things.

Again, you simplify it to "plans". I think (edit, it was Aelle who was quoted ) Aelle is not being childish at all, but trying to give you hypothetical cases when welcoming a child is just not a good option.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

And believe it or not, a child is far more important than you sh1tty "future plans".
What kind of "future" doesn't include children? You sound like a child yourself when you say such things.

By the way, you aren't in a position to be saying she sounds like a child for saying such things.
To the men: at what point in your life did you feel like a man?

[Sain Outre Longfang]

Originally Posted by aelle

If you had read what I wrote instead of what you wanted to read, you would have realized I said nothing of the sort. Please re-read.

Sounds like you put a bunch of conditions out on what could happen. Heard about them, seen them, done them. Life is hell, what do you want? Paradise?
Maybe when you die. If any of us are lucky.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I'm almost certain that the point she was making, is that someone who'd want an abortion no matter what, who isn't prepared for a normal child, sure as hell wouldn't be prepared for a disabled child. And while deciding on an abortion, not only should you consider having to take care of then for 18 years, but the possibility of giving your child the rest of your life. Those decisions are what people go through, instead of " just doesn't want a kid" like you have suggested.

Yes, that's one part of it. The other is even if one does want children in and of itself, each particular moment and set circumstances of your life may not be the right ones to have a child. Someone who may feel ready to have a baby with her partner may not be ready anymore -or not feel anymore that the situation is safe for the child- if that partner left, or became abusive. Heavy handicaps are another of these situations where each person involved will weigh if they are strong enough to go through with it, and if they are able to provide for the child the quality of life he deserves. And none of the options are easy to go through with.

In other words, it's a little more complex than "just don't want babbies lol" vs. "pregnant? k whatever lol".

[Sain Outre Longfang]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

By the way, you aren't in a position to be saying she sounds like a child for saying such things.
To the men: at what point in your life did you feel like a man?

You sooo got me!
Wait. How is that again?

Are you trying to say she's more manish then me?
........might be.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

You sooo got me!
Wait. How is that again?

Are you trying to say she's more manish then me?
........might be.

My point was, that you WANT to abandon a job and leave an employee hanging, just for the fun of it. But are calling her a child for her decision to not bring another child into this world because of future plans.

[Sain Outre Longfang]

Have fun trying to convince someone else guys!
I've got a job to go to, later.

[Weena]

Nobody is trying to convince anybody... You are entitled to your opinions, as are we.

[elucidate]

You're mother obviously had the will and the love to raise you at that age. Not all girls are like this though. What about those babies that get abandoned on some strangers doorstep, or left in a bin somewhere because the mother was too broke or too chicken, OR, too full of Pro-life banter and Christian guilt trips and scared of being ostracized from her community to get an abortion.

I've known people who have felt unwanted their whole lives, because they WERE unwanted. Their parents didn't want to have them, but did out of some BS sense of obligation that they thought they had to follow through on or else they'd go to hell or some nonsense. The children grow up to be highly dysfunctional and suffer incredible low self- esteem from knowing, instinctively, that they were a 'mistake'.

People make mistakes, young people make a lot of mistakes. Children should not have to suffer the consequences of their mistakes though. I would not want to grow up feeling like I'm the reason my mother resents me for her not being able to follow her dreams because she was stuck looking after me all through her youth.
I've known single mothers who have no lives and resent and abuse their kids for it. How do you think that feels to a child?

I personally believe that some people just shouldn't be parents! They haven't the mental or emotional maturity to raise a child and give it all it needs, and some are just so unconscious that they impose all their own B.S and baggage on their children without even knowing it. I'd rather not bring a child into this world and subject it to an abusive upbringing, than have it just to feel like I am being more "pro-life" for having the child.

Maybe the notion of being pro-life could be extended to mean not just supporting the idea that everyone should have the chance to live...isn't the quality of life that child will have in question as well? It should be IMO.

Is it "Pro-Life" that a child should be brought into the world just to provide a source of income to a starving family in India, who chop off their child's limbs, so she can beg in the streets to help the family eat. Is that a good reason to have a child? Is it in the best interests of the child to be born into that sort of "life"? If you say yes, I'd consider some form of therapy!

If a girl knows that she isn't ready or doesn't have the emotional maturity to raise a child, then it's better for the child that she doesn't. A woman has the choice what to do with her own body. I'd prefer it if people were more responsable to prevent unwanted pregnancies to start with, but since that's an unrealistic thing to expect these days, abortion is a good option.
Of course, I don't condone people using abortion as a contraceptive measure, and I've met women like this who've had 5-6 abortions because they are so damn fertile and kept getting pregnant...that's disgusting to me.

I'm also with russianrocket here, I think there are too many kids already and I don't plan to add to it, even though I'm sure I would make a fine mother. If I change my mind, adoption is always an option.

Then again, nothing is set in stone...

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

Good question. I think I turned out fine.
My mother was 16, father had no job, and I spent most of my life in poverty helping raise my two siblings, untill I joined the military got a real job and became financially independant.
There have been quite a few geniuses from hard-luck backgrounds.
So you have to ask yourself, "Would I be here today, if abortion was the norm 20-40 years ago?".
Would you?
Can you be sure?

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

oh come on. You really think that a majority of people who eat meat, seeing how most of it comes from slaughter houses, actually care about the treatment of the animals? MAJORITY of meat comes from slaughter houses, and there is not one slaughter house that I've seen with what people " consider" humane treatment of animals.

That is total BS.

How many slaughter houses have you see exactly?

The way we kill pigs and cows is as humane as it gets in western countries. Much more humane than the way the US kills their prisoners on death row.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by metamorph

That is total BS.

How many slaughter houses have you see exactly?

The way we kill pigs and cows is as humane as it gets in western countries. Much more humane than the way the US kills their prisoners on death row.

A bolt to the head may be considered "humane" by many, and in comparison to a long, slow death it probably is...it's still a bolt to the head though.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

A bolt to the head may be considered "humane" by many, and in comparison to a long, slow death it probably is...it's still a bolt to the head though.

Just to be curious... how would you suggest doing it?

As far as I'm aware, they do it in the least stressful way possible for the animal. Not because they are so nice, but because the meat is better that way.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Just to be curious... how would you suggest doing it?

As far as I'm aware, they do it in the least stressful way possible for the animal. Not because they are so nice, but because the meat is better that way.

Less stressful, sure! I don't know of a less stressful way to do it. We're talking about the word "humane" here though.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Less stressful, sure! I don't know of a less stressful way to do it. We're talking about the word "humane" here though.

Ok, a more humane way to kill an animal?

(For me, more humane and less stressful are kinda the same thing when it comes to killing animals. Less stress means it has less pain, less anticipation etc. For me that is the same as more humane. But, maybe not for everybody, so feel free to enlighten me! I'll promise to read it right after my holiday! )

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Ok, a more humane way to kill an animal?

(For me, more humane and less stressful are kinda the same thing when it comes to killing animals. Less stress means it has less pain, less anticipation etc. For me that is the same as more humane. But, maybe not for everybody, so feel free to enlighten me! I'll promise to read it right after my holiday! )

I don't know if I have anything enlightening to add.

I guess I can see that being less stressful to the animal would be the same as humane. I've never actually heard the word used to describe being humane, so it's new for me.

I'm thinking of it from a vegan viewpoint (even though I am not vegan), not my own btw.

To vegans, killing the animal in the first place is inhumane, so a bolt to the head, even if it is quick and virtually painless for the beast, is still considered inhumane to them.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Sain Outre Longfang

As this is the health board, i'll ask the question that I think is pertanent.

Is abortion healthy? Mentally and physically?

Do you mean is it healthy for the woman?

It depends I guess. If there are no complications then the only thing the woman has to deal with are the emotional repercussions and trauma from the procedure itself! There is a grieving period which can take some time to move on from. Most women who have this procedure aren't just cruising in for a "quickie" (abortion, that is)...I'd venture to say it isn't the sort of thing many women would plan for a holiday It was no holiday when I had mine, I assure you.

Physically, again depending on the reputation of the clinic and the doctors the woman chooses will be the answer to that.
I am not sure if backyard abortions are still happening these days, but they definately didn't ensure well being for the woman, mentally or physically, back in the day. These days, it's a little more safe.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Weena

...

Okay, just kiddin' you I also had a young mum.

I wonder what men's opinions would be if they were the gender getting pregnant. I think it would change a lot of opinions.

Me too!

How nice it must be to be able to get all righteous about something they never have to actually go through or be faced with...other than the seed sower who has to help out with paying for it (or not, as is often the case.)

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by metamorph

That is total BS.

How many slaughter houses have you see exactly?

The way we kill pigs and cows is as humane as it gets in western countries. Much more humane than the way the US kills their prisoners on death row.

Where people CONSIDER humane. Personally, I think it's inhumane to feed a cow, other pieces of cow. Forced cannibalism is normally considered inhumane, right? Filling them with hormones and packing them in nice and tight is not a stress free life. I could not care less how they die, but the way they live is another story. Not to mention, how they live, means better tasting and healthier food for me.

No, I have not seen a slaughter house before, but why does that exclude me frmo making my statement?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Where people CONSIDER humane. Personally, I think it's inhumane to feed a cow, other pieces of cow. Forced cannibalism is normally considered inhumane, right? Filling them with hormones and packing them in nice and tight is not a stress free life. I could not care less how they die, but the way they live is another story. Not to mention, how they live, means better tasting and healthier food for me.

No, I have not seen a slaughter house before, but why does that exclude me frmo making my statement?

That would be my definition of the word as well. The way chickens are kept...they're better off dead...or better still, better off living free-range.

I also think there is something to eating flesh that came from a miserable animal or bird. If we take that into our bodies then don't the chemicals of their misery also go into us? If animals have feelings the way we do, then aren't we ingesting their misery? It could explain why many people are so depressed for no apparent reason?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by elucidate

That would be my definition of the word as well. The way chickens are kept...they're better off dead...or better still, better off living free-range.

I also think there is something to eating flesh that came from a miserable animal or bird. If we take that into our bodies then don't the chemicals of their misery also go into us? If animals have feelings the way we do, then aren't we ingesting their misery?

I don't know about that part, but eating a stressful animal, usually does mean eating bad meat. " good cheese comes from happy cows" as the slogan goes. The happier the cow, the better the meat. The faster they die, the better the meat. On the transferred feelings side tho.... not really sure.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

I don't know about that part, but eating a stressful animal, usually does mean eating bad meat. " good cheese comes from happy cows" as the slogan goes. The happier the cow, the better the meat. The faster they die, the better the meat. On the transferred feelings side tho.... not really sure.

I've spoken to chefs who seem to think this is the case (in regards to transference of feelings) as well?

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Where people CONSIDER humane. Personally, I think it's inhumane to feed a cow, other pieces of cow. Forced cannibalism is normally considered inhumane, right? Filling them with hormones...

I am not sure about US practices, but here in Europe, cows are still herbivores. Hormones are not allowed (I know it is different in come countries like N.Z).

If you don't like the way animals are farmed, you can still eat meat or fish. No reason to be vegan for that reason alone: try shrimps, fish (not farmed fish), try meat from organic chicken....

Originally Posted by russianrocket

No, I have not seen a slaughter house before, but why does that exclude me frmo making my statement?

Because you claimed "and there is not one slaughter house that I've seen with what people " consider" humane treatment of animals".

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by metamorph

I am not sure about US practices, but here in Europe, cows are still herbivores. Hormones are not allowed (I know it is different in come countries like N.Z).

If you don't like the way animals are farmed, you can still eat meat or fish. No reason to be vegan for that reason alone: try shrimps, fish (not farmed fish), try meat from organic chicken....




Because you claimed "and there is not one slaughter house that I've seen with what people " consider" humane treatment of animals".

well, is it not true? There IS not one slaughter house that I've seen with what people consider humane treatment of animals

Oh and I'm not a vegan, so you are preaching to the choir. I love me some meat. But, the majority of modern US slaughter houses, are not really that humane.

In the US, along with hormone treatments, to get them nice and plump, as fast as possible, they are also fed cow scraps and chicken feces and etc etc etc.
How do you think mad cow got started? Cow cannibalism.

USATODAY.com - Consumers may have a beef with cattle feed

[secrets0stolen]

What a thread....

I think aelle hit the nail on the head 100%.

[MidasGirl]

To me, the debate as to whether a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy is moot. It's like discussing whether a person has a right to cut off their leg.

Funny also that the side most opposed to abortion is also most opposed to welfare and free health-care for children.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by MidasGirl

To me, the debate as to whether a woman has a right to terminate her pregnancy is moot. It's like discussing whether a person has a right to cut off their leg.

Funny also that the side most opposed to abortion is also most opposed to welfare and free health-care for children.

Most people don't see it that way, because in their eyes, it's like discussing whether a person has a right to kill their kid or not. Something about, a womens body is only her own until she houses another body in side, or some nonsense like that.

[Rachelle]

Originally Posted by metamorph

The way we kill pigs and cows is as humane as it gets in western countries. Much more humane than the way the US kills their prisoners on death row.

I think this discussion is ultimately addressing how the concept of killing/ending a life can co-exist with the idea of being "humane" and civilized, or ultimately, the concept of intelligence. If you end a life, does that make it unethical? Is it unethical to eat meat? Is it unethical to have an abortion? ...Is it unethical to NOT have an abortion, given certain circumstances? Is it unethical to force someone to have a child if they don't feel certain about it?

I'm just raising questions here and not giving a stance either way.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Most people don't see it that way, because in their eyes, it's like discussing whether a person has a right to kill their kid or not. Something about, a womens body is only her own until she houses another body in side, or some nonsense like that.

Yes, we're all just incubators didn't ya know Our bodies belong to God

YouTube - BabyMachine - ****ing Hate It - Part 1

I met these gals a few years ago at a party!

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Rachelle

I think this discussion is ultimately addressing how the concept of killing/ending a life can co-exist with the idea of being "humane" and civilized, or ultimately, the concept of intelligence. If you end a life, does that make it unethical? Is it unethical to eat meat? Is it unethical to have an abortion? ...Is it unethical to NOT have an abortion, given certain circumstances? Is it unethical to force someone to have a child if they don't feel certain about it?

I'm just raising questions here and not giving a stance either way.

It's very difficult...and it's important also to realize that everyone has a valid point of view, even if you don't agree with it.

I went through a stage when I was younger (think teens) of thinking abortion was okay, I didn't think of the deeper ramifications of what it was or what it meant,more of a "If I got pregnant I'd have an abortion otherwise my parents would kick me out on the streets blah blah". Then I got a bit older, started to think more about having babies, kids etc. and went totally anti abortion "abortion is MURDERING BABIES!!!" kinda thought process.

Then I read an article about abandoned babies, who were dumped in trash bags, or left out in the snow to freeze to death. My immediate thought was "OMG why didn't those stupid women just have abortions???!!" So there ya go, pro abortion thinking from anti abortionist!

Now, to be fair, even in my complete anti-abortion days I still believed that women who were raped etc. should be able to have abortions, and I also believed that fetuses with severe disabilities should be able to be aborted (parents' choice), we're not talking minor disabilities though... really the sort that are almost inevitably fatal.

Now, I'm personally against abortion, but I also see that people have a right to their own views and beliefs, and I shouldn't be able to impinge mine on them just because mine are different. The same should be true for church and state. I find it more offensive that there are people out there who still dictate what you CAN and CAN'T do with your own body.

Not everyone sees things through the lens of my own eyes, so the last thing I can do is come down in judgement on other people for their decisions. I just make decisions that I'm happy with and I can live with.