How far back in time to when the 'average' diet was healthy?

[moonrambler]

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

[metamorph]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

People ignore that in the past people would get sick from unprocessed food because of bacteria, funghi, toxins etc (Molded grains, trichinella: Trichinosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia etc)
Infectious diseases were the big killers then and the life expectancy much shorter.
Also ,I don't think you can look at only the diet. The whole life style matters. If you are a roman soldier and you travel by foot with 40kg of gear most of the day, you probably get away with all sorts of diets.

[votoshka]

This begs the question... have humans EVER had a truly healthy diet? Sure, back in the past there were no processed foods BUT food was often scarce too... people would live on whatever they could get for themselves. Even when times were affluent, there wouldn't have always been a huge variety of foods available, as so much of today's variety (wherever you live) has been imported from somewhere else and isn't indigenous to the area.

We often look back to hunter gatherer societies, but the range of foods they ate were limited, especially due to the seasonal nature and availability of food.

It's only been in relatively modern times that food has generally always been available (for some cultures and some places only, of course).

I would say that maybe 30+ years ago people ate somewhat better than they do now ON AVERAGE because there wasn't such easy access to processed food and junk food (although this isn't to say there weren't any). Still there is probably more interest in diet and nutrition now than there was then, as there are more overweight/obese people now. (I don't know about that exactly... given that I wasn't an adult 30 years ago so I'm only surmising).

I think nowadays there's more understanding of the link between good nutrition and good health though. Unfortunately, there's absolutely no agreement among the "experts" on what good nutrition actually entails!

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

This article is pretty interesting: Grains and Human Evolution.

For the record, I spent this afternoon at a Gluten-Free Fair and had a marvelously delicious time.

[moonrambler]

I don't suppose there's going to be a definitive answer to this. Today I ran across some research in regard to the Mediterranean diet as it has been traditionally followed in Greece, with people having much lower rates of heart disease and cancer, and greater longevity.

What Is The Mediterranean Diet Pyramid? | Oldways

CuriouslyRandom -- after my own episode with gluten sensitivity a few years ago, I thought about gluten a LOT. My theory is that people are just eating too damn much of the stuff because it's in practically every bit of commercial food. It wouldn't surprise me if this is also happening with corn.

[stanmrak]

I doubt that the "average" diet was ever healthy; even when unprocessed foods didn't exist, food supplies must have been erratic and unreliable, and knowledge about nutrition was nonexistent.

Today, we at least have the information to make wise choices, altho the overwhelming majority don't do this. 95% of the food dollars spent in the USA goes to buy processed food.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

It's very difficult to do a comparison.

Human life expectancy used to be much lower in the past. People used to die much younger, and from diseases such as tuberculosis; influenza; malaria; cholera; typhus; rabies; polio and the plague ....

.... before their diet could kill them.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It's very difficult to do a comparison.

Human life expectancy used to be much lower in the past. People used to die much younger, and from diseases such as tuberculosis; influenza; malaria; cholera; typhus; rabies; polio and the plague ....

.... before their diet could kill them.

Yes, precisely. Once you eliminate most of those causes of death, you then start to focus on the importance of diet for longevity and health.

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

People started cooking their food a lot more after the invention of the germ theory of disease. They also ate a lot of fruit at that time, as it was an item enjoyable raw and with no need for special preparation.

Then there was the invention of industrial white flour at I don't-know-what year, and basically just every time someone's added an artificial chemical to our food, health has declined...

Plus, the richer people have gotten, the more meat they have eaten. It's a serious luxury to eat that much meat. Especially since it's also subsidised by the government, and didn't use to be.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool.

I'm sure a lot of folks did, thanks those early "food product' marketers.
this coincided with the meteoric rise in heart disease and other diseases of civilization in the US

Timeline History of Heart Disease (1825 - 2015) | Diet Heart Publishing

[aelle]

I believe this myth of a golden age of nutrition comes from a misunderstanding of the mechanisms of evolution. Humans didn't evolve to eat a certain, ideal diet. We evolve to eat whatever allowed us to live long enough to reproduce fast and many times. If your diet somehow allows you to stay alive and well beyond reproductive age, good for you, but it will only be carried to the next generations if you had lenty of kids first.
Now science can allow us to determin what happens to be a healthy diet for us, as we live today. But I don't think it has much to do with what any of our ancestors ate.

[goldberg]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

I don't think there was ever a time when diet was 'good'. Now the major problem I see is that people just don't exercise enough and they it eat too much, not necessirly what they eat.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

One thing I see mentioned here a lot is that the 'modern' diet is unhealthy due to processed foods. I've seen remarks here and elsewhere about considering what Grandma or Great-Grandma would recognize as food. My grandparents were born around the turn of the last century, and they thought Kraft mac & cheese and white bread were pretty cool. Some people advocate no animal products as the healthiest diet, but through all recorded history, people ate animal products. Some advocate no wheat, or no wheat and other grains, yet through all recorded history, people ate grains.

When agriculture became prominent humans have started to shrink and diseases of civilization showed up in the fossil record. This marks the beginning or the problems. The next worst moment is when refined sugars went over 70lbs per year per person. Our bodies can not handle this much processed carbohydrates. Disease has skyrocketed since then.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by goldberg

I don't think there was ever a time when diet was 'good'. Now the major problem I see is that people just don't exercise enough and they it eat too much, not necessirly what they eat.

The evidence points to it is 99.99% what we eat and not an exercise phenomemon.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by aelle

I believe this myth of a golden age of nutrition comes from a misunderstanding of the mechanisms of evolution. Humans didn't evolve to eat a certain, ideal diet. We evolve to eat whatever allowed us to live long enough to reproduce fast and many times. If your diet somehow allows you to stay alive and well beyond reproductive age, good for you, but it will only be carried to the next generations if you had lenty of kids first.
Now science can allow us to determin what happens to be a healthy diet for us, as we live today. But I don't think it has much to do with what any of our ancestors ate.

Our bodies are best able to handle all animal meat in good tiimes with an adaptive mechanism to eat plant foods in bad times. Fossil evidence suggests we were top level carnivores (from isotope bone scans you could tell the protein types - we had the same proteins as wolves).


If a person today has any disease of civilization and/or is over fat by 30+ lbs chances are cutting out carbohydrates will help them get healthier.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

People started cooking their food a lot more after the invention of the germ theory of disease. They also ate a lot of fruit at that time, as it was an item enjoyable raw and with no need for special preparation.

Then there was the invention of industrial white flour at I don't-know-what year, and basically just every time someone's added an artificial chemical to our food, health has declined...

Plus, the richer people have gotten, the more meat they have eaten. It's a serious luxury to eat that much meat. Especially since it's also subsidised by the government, and didn't use to be.

Meat was readily available and the fossil evidence points that we were meat eaters not fruitarians. Game was plentiful pre-agriculture. There is no evidence that we were fruitarians, this is a distortion of the truth.

[stanmrak]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

Timeline History of Heart Disease (1825 - 2015) | Diet Heart Publishing

This was good for more than a few good laughs! Anyone who wants to discover how ridiculous the high-fat theory of heart disease is, should read this.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

This was good for more than a few good laughs! Anyone who wants to discover how ridiculous the high-fat theory of heart disease is, should read this.

No agenda there, right?

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Meat was readily available and the fossil evidence points that we were meat eaters not fruitarians. Game was plentiful pre-agriculture. There is no evidence that we were fruitarians, this is a distortion of the truth.

Who's distorting? I just said they ate more fruit. Cool off man.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Who's distorting? I just said they ate more fruit. Cool off man.

I wasn't heated up, man. Thank you for caring though.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Fossil evidence suggests we were top level carnivores (from isotope bone scans you could tell the protein types - we had the same proteins as wolves).

If we were top level carnivores, we would have teeth like wolves:



Not teeth like humans:



Notice the difference?

Our bodies are best able to handle all animal meat in good tiimes with an adaptive mechanism to eat plant foods in bad times.

Funny. I've never seen a wolf eat salad.

[Elrond]

The general population lives in a way that is more wrong/sinful/decadent than ever before,

like they've always done.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

If we were top level carnivores, we would have teeth like wolves:



Not teeth like humans:



Notice the difference?



Funny. I've never seen a wolf eat salad.

Wolves don't have hands, nor do they have speech like humans do. Humans have these and therefore don't need those teeth to hang onto prey.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Groundless

Wolves don't have hands, nor do they have speech like humans do. Humans have these and therefore don't need those teeth to hang onto prey.

PLEASE ...

do NOT make me google for pictures

to show you differences between

a leopard's claws

and our own human fingernails.

Humans are not "top level carnivores".

Man can't even run fast enough to catch a wild rabbit

how could he be a 'top level carnivore'?

The only "prey" that man can reasonably aspire to catch,

without the use of tools such as guns, spears, nets etc

is

.... clams.



Miss Johnson, age 23, attacking her prey.


And yes, insects.

That does not make us

"top level carnivores".

Unless you also consider moles, shrews, hedgehogs

and other insect-eating mammals

to be "top level carnivores".


"Me is carnivore. Me go eat some meat now. Beetle would be nice."

[ginkgo]

Around 1950 the stand of the FDA was that drugs could help your health, but foods had no health value at all. They said that the only purpose of foods was to fill up the stomach. People throughout history ate what was available and tasted good.

In the U.S. around 1840, people ate mostly pork and corn since it was easily available. During that time Americans drank more alcohol than ever. Maybe before the discovery of fire and the use of salt, food was healthier.

Animals eat what tastes good and other than humans, they eat all food raw except for apes, chimps, orangatans, leopards, zebras and hyenas. They will cook some of their food when they know that no one is watching them.

[votoshka]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

PLEASE ...

do NOT make me google for pictures

to show you differences between

a leopard's claws

and our own human fingernails.

Humans are not "top level carnivores".

Man can't even run fast enough to catch a wild rabbit

how could he be a 'top level carnivore'?

The only "prey" that man can reasonably aspire to catch,

without the use of tools such as guns, spears, nets etc

is

.... clams.

And yes, insects.

That does not make us

"top level carnivores".

Unless you also consider moles, shrews, hedgehogs

and other insect-eating mammals

to be "top level carnivores".


"Me is carnivore. Me go eat some meat now. Beetle would be nice."

I'd like to see who'd get eaten if a human went one on one with a tiger!

So yeah, I agree we aren't top level carnivores We just had the intelligence to learn how to hunt despite our physical limitations.

[Groundless]

Well the isotopic evidence indicates we ate the same as wolves and other carnivores from archeological digs. Your arguments are weak.

Top level by means of tools is still likely.

[Andrew Gubb]

^Is voto, ALG etc saying that prehistoric people didn't eat meat?

[votoshka]

This thread has been quite interesting and I've come to the conclusion from reading it that it's likely there IS no perfect human diet. Humans came from all over the world (well okay, they may have STARTED in one place...but that was a looong time ago) and each area had different foods available.

People ate what they could find to eat! In order to survive you HAVE to eat (unless you're a breatharian lol) so people just ate what they could get that was in their particular environment.

Now, we eat stuff that originated in many different parts of the world, and humans have spread far from where they were once indigenous. We've all adapted in order to survive.

So what is a "healthy" diet?? Who really knows? The only conclusion I've come to about this, is that a healthy diet is one made from real, fresh ingredients, no processed packaged rubbish. That's it! Arguing over the health benefits of meat, fruit whatever is pointless... humans seem to live well on either, provided they're NOT eating crap alongside the good stuff (the higher percentage of crap, the worse their health and vice versa).

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

^Is voto, ALG etc saying that prehistoric people didn't eat meat?

No. I am saying that prehistoric man was not a "top level carnivore".

A top-level carnivore is a carnivore at the top of a food chain:

(a) it eats other animals;
(b) it is generally not eaten by any other animals.

Examples of top-level carnivores:

eagles; lions; great white sharks; tigers; leopards.

Example of man getting eaten

Remains of Sailor Judson Newton Found in Shark Off 'Jaws Beach'