Obsession or Discipline pt2

[Orecle]

There is alot said on this forum about different theories on fat loss and muscle gain, some I agree with some I dont......but people cannot argue with results. I think the greatest tragedy in life for most will be to have beleived in something fanatically without even trying it for themselves

the following before and after is Jan 1st 2010 - 18th Feb. I went from 14 st 3lbs to 12 st 3lbs doing twice a day cardio for 7 days a week.

All the "But, all the muscle will fly off you crowd" chime in now"

Obsession or discipline you decide!!!!!

before







After



1st jan - 14st 3lb
2nd jan - 14st 2lb
3rd jan - 14st
4th jan 13st 12lb
5th jan - 13st 10lb
6th jan - 13st 8
7th jan - 13st 7.5
8th jan - 13st 8
9th jan - 13st 6
sun 10th jan - had a weekend carb binge
mon 11th jan - 13st 10
12th jan - 13st 8
13th jan - 13st 4.24
14th jan - 13st 5.75
15th jan - 13st 5
16th jan - 13st 3lb.75
sun 17th jan - another weekend carb binge
18th jan - 13st 6
19th jan - 13st 4lb.75
20th jan - 13st 4
21st jan - 13st 3lb.75
22nd jan - 13st 2lb.75
23rd jan - 13st
sun 24th -13st 0.5
25th jan -13st 0.5
26th jan - 13st 3lb.5
27th jan - 13st
28th jan - 12st 11.75
29th - 30th jan - didnt weigh myself
1st feb - 12st 12
2nd feb - 12st 11
3rd feb - 12st 10.75
4th feb - 12st 10
5th feb - 12st 9.75
6th feb - 12st 9
7th feb - 12st 10
8th feb - 12st 9.75
9th feb - 12st 9
10th feb - 12st 6.75
11th feb - 12st 6lb.75
12th feb - 12st 4
13th feb - 12st 3
14th feb - -
15th feb - 12st 5
16th feb - 12st 4.5
17th feb - 12st 3
18th feb - 12st 2.5
on the 18th feb i was burnt out and fed up but at the same level of leaness that i was at 11st 7lbs a yr ago. i really wanted to go further but i wanted to come off the ephdrine and caffeine, and was just generally burnt. My sex drive was non existent during this period as well.

[Lifeisamazing]

I would say that this is either extremely dedicated or very obsessed. Depends on how you felt on your road. Happy/miserable/excited to get to where you wanted?

[StevenHandel]

I agree with LifeisAmazing, I thin the difference between "obsession" and "discipline" depends on your mental state and your values. If you find some goals are taking a precedence over other, more important goals (say you are so dedicated to working out that you no longer have time to spend with your kids), then it may be time to step back and re-evaluate.

No one can tell you what is right for you, you have to decide that on your own.

[joelr]

28 lbs in 6 weeks is like almost 5lbs a week. That's a lot. 6 weeks isn't enough to lose any serious muscle unless you were starving yourself but you probably ate enough protein.

The most I've ever done is 3-4 lbs week on a 16 week diet.
Before and after pics are the best way to really tell how effective it was.

I just did a 7 month diet up until June 15 and dropped about 60 lbs. Then held tight at that weight for the remaining 6 week of summer because I wanted to eat smoothies with the seasonal watermellon and other fruits.
Below 9% bodyfat you can't eat fruit and still lose much fat.

Now I'm back on low carb, only 1 bannana and 1/2 cup oatmeal daily (besides greens which I don't count) , dropped 3lbs last week. Hoping for at least 2 this week. The bannana might have to be replaced with greens for a while, I'll see how it goes.

I'm fine all day, but I wake up in the night really hungry and my mind, which normally is fine with protein foods, really has trouble liking tuna or powder.
All I can think about is a huge bowl of cheerios with sugary milk.
This is where peanut butter saves me. I've come to understand what my hunger is telling me. Some hunger is just carb craving. I can also tell the hunger that comes from being way under the calories I need to stay healthy.
If I skip a meal and go to bed I'll wake up with the extreme can't-sleep hunger. So I have to eat.

I have a Sunday carb up with a fair amount of sugar allowed. Enough for lots of fruit and frozen yogurt. No 2000 calorie meals though. Other than that I never cheat.


Cheat meals didn't hurt your progress I guess. Did it bother you emotionally? Did you have a big cheat day or just carb up?

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

I would say that this is either extremely dedicated or very obsessed. Depends on how you felt on your road. Happy/miserable/excited to get to where you wanted?

What about this on 1st glance makes it EXTREMELY dedicated or VERYOBSESSED? would you have felt the same if you saw the numbers but not the pictures?

also....


doesnt the goal justify the journey irrespective of the feel of that journey?

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by joelr

28 lbs in 6 weeks is like almost 5lbs a week. That's a lot. 6 weeks isn't enough to lose any serious muscle unless you were starving yourself but you probably ate enough protein.

The most I've ever done is 3-4 lbs week on a 16 week diet.
Before and after pics are the best way to really tell how effective it was.

I just did a 7 month diet up until June 15 and dropped about 60 lbs. Then held tight at that weight for the remaining 6 week of summer because I wanted to eat smoothies with the seasonal watermellon and other fruits.
Below 9% bodyfat you can't eat fruit and still lose much fat.

Now I'm back on low carb, only 1 bannana and 1/2 cup oatmeal daily (besides greens which I don't count) , dropped 3lbs last week. Hoping for at least 2 this week. The bannana might have to be replaced with greens for a while, I'll see how it goes.

I'm fine all day, but I wake up in the night really hungry and my mind, which normally is fine with protein foods, really has trouble liking tuna or powder.
All I can think about is a huge bowl of cheerios with sugary milk.
This is where peanut butter saves me. I've come to understand what my hunger is telling me. Some hunger is just carb craving. I can also tell the hunger that comes from being way under the calories I need to stay healthy.
If I skip a meal and go to bed I'll wake up with the extreme can't-sleep hunger. So I have to eat.

I have a Sunday carb up with a fair amount of sugar allowed. Enough for lots of fruit and frozen yogurt. No 2000 calorie meals though. Other than that I never cheat.


Cheat meals didn't hurt your progress I guess. Did it bother you emotionally? Did you have a big cheat day or just carb up?

Emotionally, I was fuelled by my desire to be in shape. Quite a few people had commented on me being out of shape, so i was highly motivated. I remember looking at myself at Xmas and really wanting to be in shape.

my cheat meals were chicken and lamb kebab in a round flat bread. the meat is lean chicken breast and lamb and the bread is about 100g, plus about 5 diet cans of diet soda.

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by Orecle

What about this on 1st glance makes it EXTREMELY dedicated or VERYOBSESSED? would you have felt the same if you saw the numbers but not the pictures?

also....


doesnt the goal justify the journey irrespective of the feel of that journey?

I can't speak on your behalf I'm afraid but if I did something like this, I wouldn't feel happy, thus I would have to make some adjustments so that I would accomplish what I wanted without having to gauge my weight every day. I would also definitely not rush things like this. I'm an extremely impatient person but I'm learning to be more patient because patience is a virtue and people need a lot of it for long-term success. I personally try to lose around 1kg of fat per month and gain around 1kg a month. Slow but enjoyable and a sure way to success. Obviously people who need a lot of fat to lose, can be more aggressive but I'd still not rush things.

So to conclude, I would be very obsessed if I did something like this and it would cause me lots of anxiety. Since I know that it's not necessary to be this precise (obsessive), I'm keeping things as simple as possible. Keep it simple stupid! (K.I.S.S.)

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Orecle

Emotionally, I was fuelled by my desire to be in shape. Quite a few people had commented on me being out of shape, so i was highly motivated. I remember looking at myself at Xmas and really wanting to be in shape.

my cheat meals were chicken and lamb kebab in a round flat bread. the meat is lean chicken breast and lamb and the bread is about 100g, plus about 5 diet cans of diet soda.

That's like a "re-feed" rather than cheat meal. Nothing really cheating about eating a lot of bread on 1 day (it's a carb up day) and lot's of chicken/lamb.

Diet sodas and drinks, as far as getting shredded is concerned, can be used anytime. Many bodybuilders I've known go through piles of crystal Light on their contest diets.
I have 1 8oz drink daily also, along with Trident gum.

I have a hard time with having a high carb day BUT keeping it clean. I usually figure, what the heck, some sugar is carbs anyway. Sometimes I'll go like 3 weeks straight with carbs around 100 then have a serious cheat meal.
How shredded did you get?

This weekend I'm considering having apple crisp on Sunday along with pasta to carb up. I've kept carbs all this week at 1/2 cup oatmeal, 1 bannanna.
Workouts and shadow boxing have been torture.
This is my slowest/longest diet ever.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by joelr

That's like a "re-feed" rather than cheat meal. Nothing really cheating about eating a lot of bread on 1 day (it's a carb up day) and lot's of chicken/lamb.

Diet sodas and drinks, as far as getting shredded is concerned, can be used anytime. Many bodybuilders I've known go through piles of crystal Light on their contest diets.
I have 1 8oz drink daily also, along with Trident gum.

I have a hard time with having a high carb day BUT keeping it clean. I usually figure, what the heck, some sugar is carbs anyway. Sometimes I'll go like 3 weeks straight with carbs around 100 then have a serious cheat meal.
How shredded did you get?

This weekend I'm considering having apple crisp on Sunday along with pasta to carb up. I've kept carbs all this week at 1/2 cup oatmeal, 1 bannanna.
Workouts and shadow boxing have been torture.
This is my slowest/longest diet ever.

This is as far as i got shredded.

reason being i am trying to look like a bodybuilder, not fitness athlete. so i want to be in the same condition at least 30 lbs heavier, then i will decide where to go from there

the reason i put up the thread and the pics is because some on this forum seem to discount anything that goes against the latest info from their favourite internet fat loss guru, without trying it for themselves

people seem to have very dogmatic views about things they have never tried


ps If you dont mind, in your opinion what is the very best way for a natural guy to put on as much muscle mass as possible in the shortest time possible? i am talking everything but gear. Do you beleive in anything goes super bulks?

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Orecle

This is as far as i got shredded.

reason being i am trying to look like a bodybuilder, not fitness athlete. so i want to be in the same condition at least 30 lbs heavier, then i will decide where to go from there

the reason i put up the thread and the pics is because some on this forum seem to discount anything that goes against the latest info from their favourite internet fat loss guru, without trying it for themselves

people seem to have very dogmatic views about things they have never tried


ps If you dont mind, in your opinion what is the very best way for a natural guy to put on as much muscle mass as possible in the shortest time possible? i am talking everything but gear. Do you beleive in anything goes super bulks?

I didn't see the pics?

For putting on mass the best thing is to concentrate on the basics, wait about 7 days between re-working a muscle, eat 1.5 gr protein per lb of lean bodyweight, lots of complex carbs and a good mix of the 3 fats. Red meat is useful in that phase.

Get plenty of sleep too. Break the eating into 5-6 meals. Avoid junk food especially sugar because your calories will already be high from all the mass food so any extra calories are going to become fat. You'll already be gaining a little fat as it is. Mass phases have to have some fat gain, you need to be in positive nitrogen balance at all times so that means it's better to eat slightly more calories than you need rather than eat slightly less.

But pay attention to fat gain because it's easy to eat too much. Avoiding sugar in a natural mass phase (not totally, just nothing like a pint of Ben&Jerry every night) is helpful.

I used to finish dieting in May then go on a mass phase but also include lots of cheats like pizza, ice cream, candy and by Sept my abs were gone.

Your genetics will play a big role also. Personally I never gained that much on natural mass phases except too much bodyfat. I didn't make any good gains until at least the legal pro-hormones came on the market. From 18-30 I tried cutting phases, mass phases etc... but was never at all pleased with the results.
Although one time when I was about 29 I won a physique contest so I wasn't totally without results.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by joelr

I didn't see the pics?

For putting on mass the best thing is to concentrate on the basics, wait about 7 days between re-working a muscle, eat 1.5 gr protein per lb of lean bodyweight, lots of complex carbs and a good mix of the 3 fats. Red meat is useful in that phase.

Get plenty of sleep too. Break the eating into 5-6 meals. Avoid junk food especially sugar because your calories will already be high from all the mass food so any extra calories are going to become fat. You'll already be gaining a little fat as it is. Mass phases have to have some fat gain, you need to be in positive nitrogen balance at all times so that means it's better to eat slightly more calories than you need rather than eat slightly less.

But pay attention to fat gain because it's easy to eat too much. Avoiding sugar in a natural mass phase (not totally, just nothing like a pint of Ben&Jerry every night) is helpful.

I used to finish dieting in May then go on a mass phase but also include lots of cheats like pizza, ice cream, candy and by Sept my abs were gone.

Your genetics will play a big role also. Personally I never gained that much on natural mass phases except too much bodyfat. I didn't make any good gains until at least the legal pro-hormones came on the market. From 18-30 I tried cutting phases, mass phases etc... but was never at all pleased with the results.
Although one time when I was about 29 I won a physique contest so I wasn't totally without results.

thanks for the advice.... are not my pictures in my first post

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by Orecle

thanks for the advice.... are not my pictures in my first post

Yes and no Orecle. i don't think anybody is able to open them.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Yes and no Orecle. i don't think anybody is able to open them.

do u know how i can get them to show. i stored them in my photo album

[iamnottheswami]

Pictures are viewable now...great job oracle. obsessed or dedicated? You got results to be proud of...some hours you were obsessed and some just dedicated
Tom

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by Orecle

the following before and after is Jan 1st 2010 - 18th Feb. I went from 14 st 3lbs to 12 st 3lbs doing twice a day cardio for 7 days a week.

Wow Orecle, great job . So true that you can't argue with such results.

Out of curiousity, what specific exercises were you doing, how many minutes per session and what intensity level? Were you doing any resistance training at this time as well? Sounds like no?

Originally Posted by Orecle

All the "But, all the muscle will fly off you crowd" chime in now"

Yeah if any muscle flew off it's impossible to notice in the pictures. What you clearly accomplished is reducing your body fat % substantially and even if you did lose a small amount of muscle it is dwarfed proportionately by the fat loss.

Originally Posted by Orecle

Obsession or discipline you decide!!!!!

When we are extremely disciplined to accomplish something great, certain people without such discipline of their own may choose to poke holes in it. Calling it "obsession" is one such way.

[Orecle]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Wow Orecle, great job . So true that you can't argue with such results.

Out of curiousity, what specific exercises were you doing, how many minutes per session and what intensity level? Were you doing any resistance training at this time as well? Sounds like no?



Yeah if any muscle flew off it's impossible to notice in the pictures. What you clearly accomplished is reducing your body fat % substantially and even if you did lose a small amount of muscle it is dwarfed proportionately by the fat loss.



When we are extremely disciplined to accomplish something great, certain people without such discipline of their own may choose to poke holes in it. Calling it "obsession" is one such way.

Mightysuntzu

What i did would be classed as radical over training. But I honestly beleive for most individuals: under nutrition is their problem and not overtraining. To put it another way you will overtrain if you do not eat enough food to recover. For me espiecally, protein and BCAA (branch chain amino acid powder of about 20 or more a day)

I modelled bodybuilders, who as a matter of profession lose the most amount of fat in the shortest period of time.

I was doing between 2 to 3 hrs of cardio (running and stairmaster) a day split over 2 sessions monday to sunday. no typo.

i also did weights, trainimng each bodypart 2ce a week plus in addition i did 10 sets daily of a superset medley of pullups immediately followed by pressups. The goal of these workouts was to burn glycogen and create a tremendous pump in my muscles, espiecally my chest which i felt was under developed at the time(see pic 1)

I will categorically state if people fail in their physique goals it is down to


1. Nutrition and rest - the less you eat, and the less you eat well. the more rest you are going to need and the longer you will take to recover from workouts. i also beleive natural from the earth foods make one lose fat faster than the equivalent calories in shakes. I saw an immediate difference wen i dropped shakes and replaced it with more chicken.

Rest
Eventually i burned out. While the nutrition healed my muscles, it couldnt heal my nervous system, and this is what i feel true overtraining is. While muscles take 48 hrs to rebuild while the nervous system takes longer espiecally if you have been pounding heavy weights. Heavy weights take a toll on the joints too. So rest is very important, just not in te way most people think. Alot of bodybuilders train hard for 3 mths then take a week off.

2. training - when nutrition is stellar i really dont feel one dogmatic training system is much better than others, but i do beleive in principles rather than routines.

1. the stronger i got in the bodybuilding rep range 8 - 12, the bigger i got. Go to any bodybuilding gym, 9 out of 10 times, the bigger guys are the stronger guys.

2. my chest development was solely created by drop setting all my chest exercises and the daily medley of press ups

3. The guys i see with the best abs at some point were doing it daily to the tune of a minimum of 10 sets. The beauty of abs is once built, they can be mauntained on 1 day a fortnight training, but to build them i beleive a daily assault is needed