5HTP experiences

[rei]

I know we all have unique neurochemistry, though there is usually overarching similarity too. I am curious to know whether others have a similar experience with 5HTP.

I have heard it helps with seratonin but I guess I thought it would lead to some kind of positive state. I would not really say I am feeling a negative state but it is like I am feeling very neutral. It is slightly similar to mental fog bit it is less fog and more, hmm, like extreme contentment except contentment for me usually has a slightly more joyful tone to it.

I have noted a higher stress threshold which is good, and a higher threshold for sensory stimulation which is great.

But I heard this stuff improves mood and rather than a more positive baseline I am gist feeling more solid peace or something.

My questions:
Anyone else here had a similar experience with this supplement?

Anyone know if this is often a transition state that is eventually followed by a more positive baseline once the brain has adjusted to the addition of this substance?

[rei]

To give an example of the state I am talking about, my mind is very quiet most of the time, more so than it was previously. Like right now as I am preparing this response it is like I am exerting a conscious effort to think. Monkey mind is turned way way down.

There are certainly upsides to being so calm. I just expected this supplement to create a shift to a more positive state rather than an incredibly neutral one.

Note, I am not 100% sure this state is from the 5HTP but the only other thing I altered is adding the centaury flower essence which does not sound like it is meant to create a state like this. It is more about willpower.

[Illuminatus]

Serotonin generates a well-being state - an "Everything OK" status report. Hence your feelings of neutrality.

If you are looking for motivation, get a drug that stimulates dopamine.

If you are looking for high focus, get a norepinephrine stimulant.

Bear in mind also that 5HTP is just a precursor chemical for serotonin and may or may not induce the brain to produce more serotonin, based on supply and demand. Any euphoria you get from 5HTP will be mostly the product of the placebo effect. If you are looking for a more high octane stimulant of just serotonin receptors, either get some SSRIs or go illegal and look into piperazine.

If you're looking for a cheap, legal drug that does all 3 neurotransmitters I just named, I recommend St. John's Wort. If you want euphoria or extra sharpness to your high, I recommend multiplying the stated dose by AT LEAST 3.

If you want a shamanic experience to accompany your meditation, times the dosage by 8.

Research all these things first, of course.

[Illuminatus]

P.S. I have tried 5HTP a lot so what I tell you is based on personal experience, not just from some science stuff I've read.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Illuminatus

P.S. I have tried 5HTP a lot so what I tell you is based on personal experience, not just from some science stuff I've read.

Thanks, I appreciate the breakdown. I guess since seratonin is involved in the MDMA experience and from the reputation, I was expecting a slight positive state instead of a neutral one. Now that I hear it is basically doing its job I can figure out if it is something I want to continue.

I am definitely not used to this level of emotional stability. I need to figure out whether I actually like it, heh. Your breakdown will be helpful in assessing any adjustments I want to make.

Hmm. I wonder is there are any OTC supplements that are supposed to increase oxytocin production. Something to google.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by rei

Thanks, I appreciate the breakdown. I guess since seratonin is involved in the MDMA experience and from the reputation, I was expecting a slight positive state instead of a neutral one. Now that I hear it is basically doing its job I can figure out if it is something I want to continue.

MDMA acts as a releasing agent for all of the "big thee" happy neurotransmitters (serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine). It's the amphetamine part that makes you all energetic, though. The happy lovey feelings are from a tangential increase in oxytocin release stimulated by the serotonin system activation.

I am definitely not used to this level of emotional stability. I need to figure out whether I actually like it, heh. Your breakdown will be helpful in assessing any adjustments I want to make.

It's just like using any drug to alter your perceptions. Some people smoke weed! lol.

Hmm. I wonder is there are any OTC supplements that are supposed to increase oxytocin production. Something to google.

you might start lactating if you do. lol

But orgasm, hugging, childbirth are all natural ways to get that shot. I was high for like 3 days after I gave birth and I've done a butt load of recreational drugs to excess.

[reiki717]

I tried 5HTP for a while. For the first few days it made me feel tired. Dog tired. Then it seemed to balance out my mood. After a few weeks, I noticed I felt almost nothing...no extremes, complete balance. I didn't like it, so I stopped taking it.

[rei]

@LL Don't think I am at the point of wanting to get pregnant for a buzz lol but I have heard others talk about that, so you will bond with the child. Spirituality or worship is also said to produce oxytocin.

Originally Posted by reiki717

I tried 5HTP for a while. For the first few days it made me feel tired. Dog tired. Then it seemed to balance out my mood. After a few weeks, I noticed I felt almost nothing...no extremes, complete balance. I didn't like it, so I stopped taking it.

Yeah, I hear you. I wonder if the half-life stuff works so I could just take it on days when I want to be very stable. It has turned out to be good for stress, and so far I have been perfectly able to tap into intuitive mode anyway. Just not quite as intensely intuitive even when I am not choosing to be. Still not sure how I feel about these effects. Thanks for sharing.

[Illuminatus]

Originally Posted by rei

I am definitely not used to this level of emotional stability. I need to figure out whether I actually like it, heh. Your breakdown will be helpful in assessing any adjustments I want to make.

To put this in perspective, imagine if you lived life very anxiously and were prone to emotional swings because of this. From this perspective, "stable" would equal "positive". That was the main benefit I got from early drug use. Just the end of all the emotional swings. Not being paranoid or anxious all the time for no reason was like heaven. That is why you'll always get varying descriptions for how drugs are supposed to make you feel. It is so wildly subjective that you literally have to try them all and form an opinion on each one that is right for you.

So in this case, move on to something else.

Now consider this. So, as I just said, just feeling neutral is, for many people, positive. Because it means the worries have stopped. However this doesn't seem to be the case for you. You want "positive", but I don't know what that means for you. What are some signs of a positive mood for you? For some people it is intense gratification, which is the opioids (think orgasm). For others it is motivation, enthusiasm and a sense of wanting to get stuff done, which is dopamine. Others like focus, flow and intensity, which is norepinephrine.

You can find a drug for each of these, with varying levels of danger regarding addiction potential and health effects.

However, you will achieve all of these states without drugs by simply taking on a project of something you like (motivation, ongoing dopamine), engaging flow whilst working on it (norepinephrine), a sense of purpose through working on something which is important to you (serotonin) plus gratification at the end of the day for having a job well done, even if it's not finished yet (opioids).

Antidepressants and the like simply attempt to mimic the natural state of a human doing something they love.

So think about THAT

P.S. Start spelling "serotonin" correctly please, it's starting to piss me off.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Illuminatus

To put this in perspective, imagine if you lived life very anxiously and were prone to emotional swings because of this. From this perspective, "stable" would equal "positive". That was the main benefit I got from early drug use. Just the end of all the emotional swings. Not being paranoid or anxious all the time for no reason was like heaven. That is why you'll always get varying descriptions for how drugs are supposed to make you feel. It is so wildly subjective that you literally have to try them all and form an opinion on each one that is right for you.

So in this case, move on to something else.

Now consider this. So, as I just said, just feeling neutral is, for many people, positive. Because it means the worries have stopped. However this doesn't seem to be the case for you. You want "positive", but I don't know what that means for you. What are some signs of a positive mood for you? For some people it is intense gratification, which is the opioids (think orgasm). For others it is motivation, enthusiasm and a sense of wanting to get stuff done, which is dopamine. Others like focus, flow and intensity, which is norepinephrine.

You can find a drug for each of these, with varying levels of danger regarding addiction potential and health effects.

However, you will achieve all of these states without drugs by simply taking on a project of something you like (motivation, ongoing dopamine), engaging flow whilst working on it (norepinephrine), a sense of purpose through working on something which is important to you (serotonin) plus gratification at the end of the day for having a job well done, even if it's not finished yet (opioids).

Antidepressants and the like simply attempt to mimic the natural state of a human doing something they love.

So think about THAT

P.S. Start spelling "serotonin" correctly please, it's starting to piss me off.

Your P.S. Made me chuckle. Without much detail, I will just say it is very good for everyone that proper spelling hasn't been my highest priority in this thread.

I get what you're saying
About how neutral could be positive for some. I honestly haven't made up my mind on this supplement yet. Waiting to see.

What I want is a slight positive baseline, minor joyfulness feeding a sense of warmth and motivation. Like infatuation but a but less intense, as infatuation captures both the joyfulness and extra motivation. And not requiring a person to trigger it. Or the constant mental maintenance of other ways to achieve this. I do like the idea of achieving this through supplements.

I am sure accomplishing goals can do this too. That is more appealing when the motivation state I there already. So far it comes but hasn't always been as stable or consistent as what makes the long term goal completion doable in a naturally viable way. In the market for something that would neutralize the flakiness when it comes to the project stuff. Maybe I will try St. John's Wort. Thanks for sharing the findings of your personal research.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by rei

What I want is a slight positive baseline, minor joyfulness feeding a sense of warmth and motivation. Like infatuation but a but less intense, as infatuation captures both the joyfulness and extra motivation. And not requiring a person to trigger it. Or the constant mental maintenance of other ways to achieve this. I do like the idea of achieving this through supplements.

I have a question, I've always wondered. If you have that slight positive baseline, doesn't that just become the norm?

Like yin and yang, for instance. you can't have one without the other. is it possible to have joy without sorrow?

[rei]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

I have a question, I've always wondered. If you have that slight positive baseline, doesn't that just become the norm?

Like yin and yang, for instance. you can't have one without the other. is it possible to have joy without sorrow?

Yes it does become the norm, and a person could then assign slight negativity to true neutrality

Ah, the drive of the hedonist...

If we are talking supplements to influence brain chemistry, it could be that the balancing comes when you remove the supplement, or could just be a sign to adjust the dosage.

I am looking into ways to adjust my brain so it has the chemical levels of someone with a more idealistic upbringing. To feel more good through the easy peasy path as the side effects could lead to greater desire to do the hard stuff.

There are other ways to reach the end goal, of course. But I admit if an easier and more comfortable path will work, I like to take it. If there is a way to feel more fully healed and not quasi-limited by the biological tweaks that occurred when I was too small to counteract them before they set up chemical ruts, and if it is as simple as taking an OTC supplement, well, as un-PD as it sounds, of course I would enjoy that as an option!

I agree the pain makes the pleasure sweet and even sets things up so we can recognize it as such. That doesn't mean I am not still interested in the possibility of having my cake and eating it too.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Yeah I'm not criticizing, I just wish I could accept that for myself.

[rei]

Note, I said "feel more good" on purpose. The notion of "feeling better" didn't feel like it conveyed my point accurately because I am not talking about feeling bad or unwell. I am adding this in case Illuminatus is also a grammar Nazi

[rei]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Yeah I'm not criticizing, I just wish I could accept that for myself.

Ha, I hear you there. I get it intellectually and often emotionally too. But I still try to push away from the gift of contrast sometimes.

[rei]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Yeah I'm not criticizing, I just wish I could accept that for myself.

[Illuminatus]

Originally Posted by rei

Note, I said "feel more good" on purpose. The notion of "feeling better" didn't feel like it conveyed my point accurately because I am not talking about feeling bad or unwell. I am adding this in case Illuminatus is also a grammar Nazi

Actually I don't give a ****. I had a pet hate with the serotonin spelling because I read a book called Angel Tech by Antero Alli and the f*cker spelled it "seratonin" EVERY TIME. The book hadn't even been proofread and was littered with spelling and grammar errors. Made me just think: "Take some pride in your work." I see the "seratonin" spelling a lot all over the Internet too.

Back to the subject for a minute. Try St. John's Wort please. But take mammoth doses, like I said in my previous post. Let us know how it goes. It was my favourite drug for ages because the high is so natural and clear. Tolerance DOES develop to it however, like all drugs. So I recommend going 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off if you want to retain the (non-placebo) effects of the drug. That goes for any drug really.

My favourite drug at the moment? Khat. Post coming soon about my adventure finding it in my city.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Illuminatus

To put this in perspective, imagine if you lived life very anxiously and were prone to emotional swings because of this. From this perspective, "stable" would equal "positive". That was the main benefit I got from early drug use. Just the end of all the emotional swings. Not being paranoid or anxious all the time for no reason was like heaven. That is why you'll always get varying descriptions for how drugs are supposed to make you feel. It is so wildly subjective that you literally have to try them all and form an opinion on each one that is right for you.

So in this case, move on to something else.

Now consider this. So, as I just said, just feeling neutral is, for many people, positive. Because it means the worries have stopped. However this doesn't seem to be the case for you. You want "positive", but I don't know what that means for you. What are some signs of a positive mood for you? For some people it is intense gratification, which is the opioids (think orgasm). For others it is motivation, enthusiasm and a sense of wanting to get stuff done, which is dopamine. Others like focus, flow and intensity, which is norepinephrine.

You can find a drug for each of these, with varying levels of danger regarding addiction potential and health effects.

However, you will achieve all of these states without drugs by simply taking on a project of something you like (motivation, ongoing dopamine), engaging flow whilst working on it (norepinephrine), a sense of purpose through working on something which is important to you (serotonin) plus gratification at the end of the day for having a job well done, even if it's not finished yet (opioids).

Antidepressants and the like simply attempt to mimic the natural state of a human doing something they love.

So think about THAT

P.S. Start spelling "serotonin" correctly please, it's starting to piss me off.

Opiates release dopamine also, I've heard people refer to them as the "house cleaning" drug because cleaning suddenly becomes really engaging and fun.

Video games and movies have been shown to release dopamine also.

I've heard that there is a nasal oxyTOCIN but it doesn't work that well (oxyTOCIN is injected and right now used as a child birthing drug). But it also increases some negative emotions, social things like being envious of others good fortune.

I'd like to try the 5HTP but I've heard it can cause serotonin syndrome if you're already taking an antidepressant.

[rei]

Yeah, joel, I would not recommend mixing substances that work on serotonin. I would probably not even stay with the 5HTP while also taking St. John's Wort.

The 5HTP definitely has upsides. Yesterday morning I found out someone had scheduled my current professional team to speak at a conference, several weeks or months back. They were no longer with the company and the conference was today. It was for a group of people in my discipline so I was asked to come up with a presentation... in less than 24 hours... for an audience of about 60.

I would probably have had more trouble coming through on that without the effects of the 5HTP. Also noticed tonight I spent quite a bit of time out and about, in stimulating environments, and it has helped a lot with that... with physical pain as well (which I believe I already said in this thread).

I am curious to know potential consequences of taking massive doses of St. John's Wort, both in the short and long term. Like whether there's a risk for overworking any organs or something.

[Piercetheveil]

Well well. REI is on the Nootropic precursor train ;D. Sweet.

I have a pretty extense experiment running with 5htp. My end result was that, discouragingly, the drug just did not align with my genetics.

But I learned alot and have a slew of research. The 50-100 mg dose was my sweet spot depending on what I was after. However, while it kept S.A.D.D. at bay it touched off anxiety and that is a no go for me. Serotonin is tricky for me.

Brain chemistry is even trickier. And Big Pharma seems to not want to play in the arena of narrowly focused drugs. SSRI's for instance (I have been on em) do tend to stop the negatives in some of my genetic brain chemistry (which is changeable long term via...well that is another thread) but they also blunt my strong sides. In short, I want a deeper human experience not a safe one because of blunting. Finding drugs that hit the kill switch on MAO-B for instance and NOTHING else are hard to find (though there is one out). Anywho...

Tianeptine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia is a much more effective option for what you mentioned. I have played with that for a while and it thrashes anything I have ever taken (and that is a bunch).

Keep doin your homework. Everyone is different. I always make sure I have metrics to measure as well as attempt to have some non-subjective ones (fMRI/bloodwork/etc.)

BrainMeta.com Forum -> Cognitive Enhancers has a good forum spot.

I mentioned David Pearce before. That dude has more experience with this stuff than anyone I have crossed (well, that I consider rational, human, and stable). David Pearce : diary update (2008)

[Illuminatus]

Originally Posted by joelr

I'd like to try the 5HTP but I've heard it can cause serotonin syndrome if you're already taking an antidepressant.

Everyone needs to be careful and research everything thoroughly before taking anything.

However, personally I've pushed the boundary with serotonin syndrome and never had it. Or if I've had it, it hasn't been life threatening.

I've taken St. John's Wort and MDMA together, whilst on sleep deprivation in the past and didn't get serotonin syndrome. I've also done SSRIs and MDMA, and other serotonin medleys with no ill effect.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Illuminatus

However, personally I've pushed the boundary with serotonin syndrome and never had it. Or if I've had it, it hasn't been life threatening.

I've had this from prescribed antidepressants. Paxil. I only took it for about a week and I was absolutely wretched, in the fetal position. Hypomania + crippling nausea + tremors and sweating = HORRID. It was just your run of the mill therapeutic dose. I've had a reaction to every single prescription antidepressant I've ever been prescribed.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by rei

Yeah, joel, I would not recommend mixing substances that work on serotonin. I would probably not even stay with the 5HTP while also taking St. John's Wort.

The 5HTP definitely has upsides. Yesterday morning I found out someone had scheduled my current professional team to speak at a conference, several weeks or months back. They were no longer with the company and the conference was today. It was for a group of people in my discipline so I was asked to come up with a presentation... in less than 24 hours... for an audience of about 60.

I would probably have had more trouble coming through on that without the effects of the 5HTP. Also noticed tonight I spent quite a bit of time out and about, in stimulating environments, and it has helped a lot with that... with physical pain as well (which I believe I already said in this thread).

I am curious to know potential consequences of taking massive doses of St. John's Wort, both in the short and long term. Like whether there's a risk for overworking any organs or something.

Here are some experiences with St John and his wort:

Erowid St John's Wort Vault

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Illuminatus

Everyone needs to be careful and research everything thoroughly before taking anything.

However, personally I've pushed the boundary with serotonin syndrome and never had it. Or if I've had it, it hasn't been life threatening.

I've taken St. John's Wort and MDMA together, whilst on sleep deprivation in the past and didn't get serotonin syndrome. I've also done SSRIs and MDMA, and other serotonin medleys with no ill effect.

Yeah during my research I found that some people get it and some don't when they take multiple serotonin sources.

I was on the max dose of venaflaxine and took it all at once and one time after taking my 3 pills I got a phone call which distracted me and accidentally took my dose again. I got some weird effects but no sickness.

But I'm staying on the caution side. I have some tramadol but I'm not going to risk it because that stuff also has a SSRI property and seisures have happened when mixing.

I never take chances like that. All drugs have risks of course but y'know what I mean.

[jeff3]

Originally Posted by joelr

Yeah during my research I found that some people get it and some don't when they take multiple serotonin sources.

I was on the max dose of venaflaxine and took it all at once and one time after taking my 3 pills I got a phone call which distracted me and accidentally took my dose again. I got some weird effects but no sickness.

But I'm staying on the caution side. I have some tramadol but I'm not going to risk it because that stuff also has a SSRI property and seisures have happened when mixing.

I never take chances like that. All drugs have risks of course but y'know what I mean.

You ever have brain "clicks" ?, hard to describe but I would sometimes have noticeable instantaneous changes in perception and mood accompanied by a "click". I don't mean an audible click, but something I felt,......This has happened on upper limit doses of Wellbutrin, and on moderate doses of Wellbutrin with 5htp added. The change was always for the better as far as mood and things would just seem clearer. This has happened a few times while meditating as well, normally after a few weeks of meditating every day. My thinking is that it is new brain pathways being activated and I just happen to be calm and centered and notice it actually happen. Just a guess.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by jeff3

You ever have brain "clicks" ?, hard to describe but I would sometimes have noticeable instantaneous changes in perception and mood accompanied by a "click". I don't mean an audible click, but something I felt,......This has happened on upper limit doses of Wellbutrin, and on moderate doses of Wellbutrin with 5htp added. The change was always for the better as far as mood and things would just seem clearer. This has happened a few times while meditating as well, normally after a few weeks of meditating every day. My thinking is that it is new brain pathways being activated and I just happen to be calm and centered and notice it actually happen. Just a guess.

No but I get the "zaps" all the time. Every day before I dose the venaflaxine I start having WDs because the previous days dose is wearing off. I don't like to take it RIGHT after waking up, I prefer to get my workouts done first then have the stuff kick in during other activities. I can deal with low serotonin during exercise. But it starts to wear off after so many hours so I have to time it just right. Taking more at night doesn't help much and I'm trying to wein off anyways.

So the WDS are mostly brain zaps and increasing depression and a sort of bored uneasy feeling where you just want to go back to bed or eat junk food.

But the zaps get worse and worse. Eventually I'd probably have to lie down and close my eyes because eye movement causes them.
I've never pushed too far into WDs, it must be really awful.
I hate these drugs.

[Piercetheveil]

Check the brain meta forums. Lots of brain hackers that do self-reports and typically point to research (of course use your own data/sense).

Stablon (Tianeptine) is one HELLUVA play in the arena with people that deal with depression. Dosage is tricky for some but jeeeeeeeeeez. Incredible.

Tianeptine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

David Pearce : diary update (2008)

amineptine, when it was available-near impossible to find now-was one heck of a help too. I should have stocked up on that years ago. Alas...

Joel, feel for you. Been there. Though, the drug you are on was suppose to rock the show with that niche. It was suppose to be more specific. Eh, so it goes.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Piercetheveil

Joel, feel for you. Been there. Though, the drug you are on was suppose to rock the show with that niche. It was suppose to be more specific. Eh, so it goes.

It is a powerful drug, I can tell it's "trying" to do it's thing. Moreso than any other of it's kind. But now it's time to get clean.
But I had to rock the show with different meds.