Wheat is Murder

[Excellent Lodestar]

Denise has simplified what should have been told to us all along and what is the REAL take home from the China study...

The China Study, Wheat, and Heart Disease; Oh My! Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet

[Searching]

...and it's high time the lie stopped being spread that eating plants will improve your health over an animal-based diet.

Kudos and much respect to those who don't eat animals for ethical reasons -- but the deceiving of innocent people who simply want to maximize their health must stop!

[Dave Plaza]

To me, this is absolute rubbish! Is the rate of moratality lower in China than the rest of the world? If, i swap my wheat for rice, or if I'm from corn eating latin america, am I doomed to live a short life? Maybe we should stop eating wheat or corn so we can live longer... Maybe because I am a white westerner I can eat rice and live longer, there's a lot of variables to factor in to this... and hence this info sucks.

[Searching]

You sound like you need to be burped.

Would it kill you to follow the link and read the research? Or do you just want to rant?

[Groundless]

This looks familiar!

[Dave Plaza]

Originally Posted by Searching

You sound like you need to be burped.

Would it kill you to follow the link and read the research? Or do you just want to rant?

Burped? Quite intelligent...

I read the link, you care to discuss it, lets do it... No need to throw insults... You're a good guy aren't you?

[Searching]

You're a good guy aren't you?

You are just desperate for someone to troll.

Anyway...nothing to discuss until you've read it. And with that rant, you never did read it.

But to open-minded folks who are wondering why eating "right" keeps making you fatter, sicker and more tired...read the link in the O.P.


.

[ginkgo]

[QUOTE the deceiving of innocent people who simply want to maximize their health must stop![/QUOTE]

You have time to edit what you wrote.

Must:
1. To be obliged or required by morality, law, or custom: Citizens must register in order to vote.
2. To be compelled, as by a physical necessity or requirement: Plants must have oxygen in order to live.
3. Used to express a command or admonition: You must not go there alone. You simply must be careful.
4. To be determined to; have as a fixed resolve: If you must leave, do it quietly.
5.
a. Used to indicate inevitability or certainty: We all must die.
b. Used to indicate logical probability or presumptive certainty: If the lights were on, they must have been at home.

[RomanHD]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

You have time to edit what you wrote.

Must:
1. To be obliged or required by morality, law, or custom: Citizens must register in order to vote.
2. To be compelled, as by a physical necessity or requirement: Plants must have oxygen in order to live.
3. Used to express a command or admonition: You must not go there alone. You simply must be careful.
4. To be determined to; have as a fixed resolve: If you must leave, do it quietly.
5.
a. Used to indicate inevitability or certainty: We all must die.
b. Used to indicate logical probability or presumptive certainty: If the lights were on, they must have been at home.

When you can't find anything wrong with research you don't agree with, you start playing word games? Very clever...

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by Searching

But to open-minded folks who are wondering why eating "right" keeps making you fatter, sicker and more tired...read the link in the O.P.

That's really amusing. Because in that link the author was examining if wheat really was a risk factor or not, and he found that where there was high wheat consumption there was low FISH consumption and low GREEN VEGETABLE consumption and high MEAT consumption.

So, overall, if you want to be healthy, eat more green vegetables and fish, and less meat and processed food made from wheat.

All the people that suggest a vegetarian/vegan/raw vegan diet also say that we should eat less processed food, like wheat, and more health foods like green vegetables.

Dave: The link said the study was flawed. The entire article was about how flawed the study was.

Lastly: Grains like wheat, corn, rice and even potatoes are vastly different from fresh vegetables. They need to be processed before being eaten and are high in starch based carbohydrates compared to their nutritional value. The human body loves them though because they are a dense form of energy. The downside is that our bodies miss out on all the other nutrients if we only consume grains. So before you get on your soapbox and proclaim that vegetables are murder and meat is divine, actually read what you are espousing.

[Harald]

Originally Posted by searching

...and it's high time the lie stopped being spread that eating plants will improve your health over an animal-based diet.

Funniest thing I've seen today!

[elucidate]

Why would someone say they read the link, and be open to discussing it with you if they really hadn't?

Your hostility seems unwarranted and unnecessary...unless you just like to fight for the sake of it and insult people for the fun of it?

Originally Posted by Searching

You're a good guy aren't you?

You are just desperate for someone to troll.

Anyway...nothing to discuss until you've read it. And with that rant, you never did read it.

But to open-minded folks who are wondering why eating "right" keeps making you fatter, sicker and more tired...read the link in the O.P.


.

[Searching]

Originally Posted by Parthon

That's really amusing. Because in that link the author was examining if wheat really was a risk factor or not, and he found that where there was high wheat consumption there was low FISH consumption and low GREEN VEGETABLE consumption and high MEAT consumption.

So, overall, if you want to be healthy, eat more green vegetables and fish, and less meat and processed food made from wheat.

All the people that suggest a vegetarian/vegan/raw vegan diet also say that we should eat less processed food, like wheat, and more health foods like green vegetables.

Dave: The link said the study was flawed. The entire article was about how flawed the study was.

Lastly: Grains like wheat, corn, rice and even potatoes are vastly different from fresh vegetables. They need to be processed before being eaten and are high in starch based carbohydrates compared to their nutritional value. The human body loves them though because they are a dense form of energy. The downside is that our bodies miss out on all the other nutrients if we only consume grains. So before you get on your soapbox and proclaim that vegetables are murder and meat is divine, actually read what you are espousing.

It's pretty interesting that you claim to have read the linked post, yet never discovered that the author was a woman.

To others...please read Denise's posts on The China Study -- what the data actually indicates.

BTW, I completely support all who eat vegan for ethical reasons. I do not support those who would mislead others into an unhealthy diet.

Human suffering matters too.

Bye, all.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Parthon

That's really amusing. Because in that link the author was examining if wheat really was a risk factor or not, and he found that where there was high wheat consumption there was low FISH consumption and low GREEN VEGETABLE consumption and high MEAT consumption.

So, overall, if you want to be healthy, eat more green vegetables and fish, and less meat and processed food made from wheat.

Interesting you choose to frame meat as your usual suspect. Methinks you are having cognitive dissonance issues.

here's why...
Here’s the problem with looking at wheat and heart health. Along with correlating pretty darn strongly with heart disease, wheat-eating regions boast a number of other factors possibly involved as well—some as protective agents and some as causative. For instance, wheat flour correlates significantly and inversely with:

Plasma folate concentrations (and consequently, homocysteine status)
Fish intake and DHA levels
Yearly green vegetable consumption
HDL cholesterol
Vitamin C intake
And it correlates significantly and positively with:

Height, weight, and BMI
Blood pressure
Latitude (as a possible marker for vitamin D status)
Yearly milk intake
Polyunsaturated fatty acid intake

So, where is meat sited as an issue? Since there isn't any in this reference I am calling you out as an anti-meat propagandist.

Originally Posted by Parthon

Lastly: Grains like wheat, corn, rice and even potatoes are vastly different from fresh vegetables. They need to be processed before being eaten and are high in starch based carbohydrates compared to their nutritional value. The human body loves them though because they are a dense form of energy. The downside is that our bodies miss out on all the other nutrients if we only consume grains. So before you get on your soapbox and proclaim that vegetables are murder and meat is divine, actually read what you are espousing.

Sorry charlie, err, Parthon, Carbohydrates are the same energy as proteins but less than half as valuable as fats. The body needs fats and animal fats are the best fats to have.

I believe he said wheat is murder, not vegetables. If you are to jump on someone for inaccuracies you yourself ought to hold yourself to the same standard, if you can handle it that is.

Meat is what we evolved to eat and it is divine.

Thank you very little.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by Searching

BTW, I completely support all who eat vegan for ethical reasons.

It is the only reason that holds any rational argument in my mind too.

[Parthon]

There are more carbohydrates per kilogram in grains than there are in vegetables. Same as with meat. Grains are therefore a more dense energy source, as vegetables contain more water and fibrous tissue that is not carbohydrates.

I never said carbohydrates had more energy than protein, I said that grains contain more carbohydrates compared to vegetables. My facts are straight.

And it was Searching that said "...and it's high time the lie stopped being spread that eating plants will improve your health over an animal-based diet."

And sorry for that single typo, I guess I should be more pedantic about my typing.

And double rereading the link again. Yeah, sorry, I missed the line where eating meat isn't a factor. So if you want to be healthy, eat more green vegetables, eat less wheat and processed wheat products and don't worry about your meat intake.

This all goes to prove another point. We all use data for our own means, to prove our own view of the way things run. If we really want to have the best life possible for ourselves, we need to get as much accurate information together as possible. People have opinions, and we use that to shape our interpretation of data. Saying that eating plants is wrong is a hugely dangerous mistake, as is telling people to not eat meat. We need to be more accurate with our information, and stop trying to push pro-meat or anti-meat agendas.

[Searching]

Originally Posted by Parthon

So if you want to be healthy, eat more green vegetables, eat less wheat and processed wheat products and don't worry about your meat intake.

While that might be your opinion, it certainly appears nowhere in the article you supposedly read.

Originally Posted by Parthon

This all goes to prove another point. We all use data for our own means, to prove our own view of the way things run.

You use data to do this. The author of the linked article actively attempts to disprove her own hypotheses. This is called "science."

Others should read the linked material and and think for themselves.

Originally Posted by Parthon

People have opinions, and we use that to shape our interpretation of data.

If we're incapable of rigorous thought, sure. It's not mandatory that everyone be a sloppy thinker.

Please stop using the word "people" as a proxy for yourself. It's just you, dude. Take responsibility for your own opinion, and stop with the "Royal We" foolishness.

Originally Posted by Parthon

We need to be more accurate with our information, and stop trying to push pro-meat or anti-meat agendas.

Yes, "we" do.

Sheesh.

[Parthon]

I'm going to unsubscribe from this thread before I say something stupid.

I thought it was going to be a nice discussion about what impact wheat has on the diet and what we could eat instead to improve our health.

As long as Groundless and Searching are only interesting in nitpicking views from the other side, there's no point participating here.

Have fun in your continued meat-fest.

[Groundless]

Saying that eating plants is wrong is a hugely dangerous mistake, as is telling people to not eat meat.

Nicely put. Thank you for changing your suggestion after re-reading it. Much appreciated.

[MightySunTzu]

One of the greatest thread titles ever and Denise Minger rules .

[Excellent Lodestar]

"Raw food omnivore" Denise Minger on Jimmy Moore's podcast:
Denise Minger Debunks And Dismantles ‘The China Study’ (Episode 405) | The Livin La Vida Low-Carb Show

[BobbySox]

I have briefly skimmed through the China Study article on wheat and heart disease. Why didn't I bother to read it thoroughly? Because I know for a fact that it is correct! It has now been proven beyond all doubt that grains and in particular wheat and gluten are the causes of a huge proportion of the diseases in the Western world today. Why is it that some people have a multiple heart bypass operation, but within a few years need another one, even though they take the drugs, eat low fat etc etc. It's because they are still eating gluten which is causing the artery inflammation. That's why the arteries get clogged up with plaque again because any fat eaten gets caught in the inflamed areas.

The terms, celiac disease and gluten intolerance are interchangable. And believe me, you can be gluten intolerant yet not have the slightest inkling that you are. Anybody who doubts that gluten can be the cause of so much disease and ill health should read the following link.

Celiac Disease Research: Associated Diseases and Disorders

[goldberg]

Originally Posted by BobbySox

I have briefly skimmed through the China Study article on wheat and heart disease. Why didn't I bother to read it thoroughly? Because I know for a fact that it is correct! It has now been proven beyond all doubt that grains and in particular wheat and gluten are the causes of a huge proportion of the diseases in the Western world today. Why is it that some people have a multiple heart bypass operation, but within a few years need another one, even though they take the drugs, eat low fat etc etc. It's because they are still eating gluten which is causing the artery inflammation. That's why the arteries get clogged up with plaque again because any fat eaten gets caught in the inflamed areas.

The terms, celiac disease and gluten intolerance are interchangable. And believe me, you can be gluten intolerant yet not have the slightest inkling that you are. Anybody who doubts that gluten can be the cause of so much disease and ill health should read the following link.

Celiac Disease Research: Associated Diseases and Disorders

So basically you did not read it or attempt to analyse it for its veracity, but simply said, yes that agrees with my current world view, therefore it is correct. I bet you spend a heck of a lot more time trying to poke holes in the opposing view than you do your view.

Do you honestly believe this is a good way to get at the truth?

Here is a challenge, find at least three issues with the link provided. I will get you started, the data could have been collected poorly, because it is done in questionaire form these can be very biased. Another point is it does not mention life expectancy (or health expectancy though that is a much fuzzier concept), if you are going to talk about death in a link you should really talk about life expectancy numbers.

[Groundless]

Originally Posted by goldberg

So basically you did not read it or attempt to analyse it for its veracity, but simply said, yes that agrees with my current world view, therefore it is correct. I bet you spend a heck of a lot more time trying to poke holes in the opposing view than you do your view.

Do you honestly believe this is a good way to get at the truth?

Here is a challenge, find at least three issues with the link provided. I will get you started, the data could have been collected poorly, because it is done in questionaire form these can be very biased. Another point is it does not mention life expectancy (or health expectancy though that is a much fuzzier concept), if you are going to talk about death in a link you should really talk about life expectancy numbers.

Excellent points. All-cause mortality versus supposed perceived risk factors can be quite misleading.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

"Raw food omnivore" Denise Minger on Jimmy Moore's podcast:
Denise Minger Debunks And Dismantles ‘The China Study’ (Episode 405) | The Livin La Vida Low-Carb Show

I'm more than 3/4s through the interview. WOW! Denise is amazing. I was surprised to learn she'd started being a vegetarian at the age of 7, and then was vegan for quite a while in her teens. It's a good thing she got her health problems (especially the wheat allergy) sorted out at such a young age.

It's strange that people attack her for being "pro" meat, when she hardly eats any meat at all.

[BobbySox]

Gluten Intolerance Leads to Cancer, Heart Disease and Death, Research Shows

[Lauxa]

Wow, Denise Minger is amazing, what dedication to truth she has to crunch through all those numbers and try to figure out what the data is actually saying.

The other article she linked to is pretty interesting as well. Seems to indicate that if you're going to eat carbs, rice is a better choice.

Health Correlator: The China Study II: Wheat flour, rice, and cardiovascular disease

[Firefly101]

Has Denise Minger Read 'The China Study'? -- A Collective Rebuttal - 30 Bananas a Day!

[moonrambler]

This is like Dueling Studies.

[Firefly101]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

This is like Dueling Studies.

par for the course.