Effectiveness and pro's and cons of Martial arts

[ssandra]

For back ground see: Personal Safety When You're Out Alone

How effective is martial arts when:

Doing it as a sport
Using it for self defense
Using it to feel more secure about yourself
etc.

(Personal attacks, opinions as to why someone has a certain opinion will be deleted even if the rest of the message might be extremely valuable. Lets just not go there people!)

[joelr]

MMA is likely the best for those.

In a self defense situation with a weapon you've got to hand over your wallet or escape.
The only thing left is hand-to-hand fighting, it's likely it would be a man, someone much bigger and they probably will be able to get you to the ground.
Krav Maga stuff works on defense but that eye poke or face scratch isn't stopping someone who's full of adrenaline. In the UFC guys have fought several rounds with a broken arm and still won!! I mean a completely severed bone! If you seriously hurt an attacker they may become enraged.

Even shooting someone who has a knife and is 30 feet away is likely to result in getting you stabbed. I've seen why this is so on a police training video when I was a dispatcher for my local PD for a few years after high school.

So with MMA you will have a good standup game, especially footwork, very usefull to stay away and possibly escape.
More importantly is you will learn how to be very dangerous on the ground.
Grappling is the most important and in class you can always spar at 100% so you learn what it feels like. People with no experience are SO easy to submit in a choke or lock, even if you weigh 100 lbs less.

I used to grapple with one of my instructors who was a 120 lb female and I was 250 and muscular. Although I could win it's only because I was pretty good myself plus the 100lbs. It was really hard to not get submitted by her.

Any man who tried to grapple her to the ground would be destroyed in any number of ways. If he was lucky he'd just get choked out. If not he'd have a broken ankle, knee or arm that would take 6 months to heal.
The best thing about grappling (Jui-jitsu) is that many of the devastating submissions are performed while you are on your back with someone on top of you.

Relying on standup fighting is no good. One of the best boxers alive just fought in the UFC Sat night.
He got taken down immediately and within a few minutes an arm triangle choke was applied and he tapped out, or he would have gone unconscious in another 2 seconds.

I think Krav Maga does some grappling but I don't know exactly how much.
But the fighters aren't "that" good otherwise some top level guys would fight in matches and become rich. Even with MMA rules, if they had any significant skills they would be competitive in the sport but they are not.

So I would say you need to become a fighter to be effective. Not professionally just be competitive in class. At the least take just grappling/JJ and learn how to avoid takedown, submissions etc..

[Groundless]

Doing it as a sport
In my Tae Kwon Do days it was fun to be competative. I found it fun.

Using it for self defense
I would say Tae Kwon Do was only so so for that. other martial arts may be better. If you believe your posture and belief in yourself will ward off would be attackers then being more confident in a martial art could only help.

Using it to feel more secure about yourself
etc.
Security is an illusion. As long as the belief isn't tested too frequently it is likely to be kept as a well envisioned illusion.

[hamworld05]

Originally Posted by joelr

MMA is likely the best for those.

In a self defense situation with a weapon you've got to hand over your wallet or escape.
The only thing left is hand-to-hand fighting, it's likely it would be a man, someone much bigger and they probably will be able to get you to the ground.
Krav Maga stuff works on defense but that eye poke or face scratch isn't stopping someone who's full of adrenaline. In the UFC guys have fought several rounds with a broken arm and still won!! I mean a completely severed bone! If you seriously hurt an attacker they may become enraged.

Even shooting someone who has a knife and is 30 feet away is likely to result in getting you stabbed. I've seen why this is so on a police training video when I was a dispatcher for my local PD for a few years after high school.

So with MMA you will have a good standup game, especially footwork, very usefull to stay away and possibly escape.
More importantly is you will learn how to be very dangerous on the ground.
Grappling is the most important and in class you can always spar at 100% so you learn what it feels like. People with no experience are SO easy to submit in a choke or lock, even if you weigh 100 lbs less.

I used to grapple with one of my instructors who was a 120 lb female and I was 250 and muscular. Although I could win it's only because I was pretty good myself plus the 100lbs. It was really hard to not get submitted by her.

Any man who tried to grapple her to the ground would be destroyed in any number of ways. If he was lucky he'd just get choked out. If not he'd have a broken ankle, knee or arm that would take 6 months to heal.
The best thing about grappling (Jui-jitsu) is that many of the devastating submissions are performed while you are on your back with someone on top of you.

Relying on standup fighting is no good. One of the best boxers alive just fought in the UFC Sat night.
He got taken down immediately and within a few minutes an arm triangle choke was applied and he tapped out, or he would have gone unconscious in another 2 seconds.

I think Krav Maga does some grappling but I don't know exactly how much.
But the fighters aren't "that" good otherwise some top level guys would fight in matches and become rich. Even with MMA rules, if they had any significant skills they would be competitive in the sport but they are not.

So I would say you need to become a fighter to be effective. Not professionally just be competitive in class. At the least take just grappling/JJ and learn how to avoid takedown, submissions etc..

How about Jeet Kune Do joelr? Bruce Lee practised it.

[Dharma]

Doing it as a sport
yes

Using it for self defense
What's best is something that doesn't use a lot of fine muscle movements. WTSHTF and your heart rate skyrockets and a bunch of adrenalin is released into the body, that wrist take-down you worked on over and over in class will be impossible to use until later in the fight when your heart rate lowers a bit. Which might be too late. For practical personal protection you need a martial art that uses the larger muscle groups - arms, elbows, knees, legs as your primary strikes/defenses.

Using it to feel more secure about yourself
yes, any tactic

[VinceG]

If you're going to train martial arts at all, you need to be training in how to move effectively. There's a ponderous lack of accountability in martial arts teachers today. You need to know what the principles of effective movement are and you need to know that your teacher knows them too. You should be well informed about the pervasive culture of martial arts BS.

In order to do this, a careful perusal of this website is needed:

http://nononsenseselfdefense.com

The website goes into all aspects of self-defense and touches on topics of interest to sport fighting as well. These URLs are of particular interest:

http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/tac...ectiveness.htm
http://nononsenseselfdefense.com/martialarts.html
Four Focuses of the Martial Arts

I'll excerpt an important passage here:

In order to be safe, the average person:

* Doesn't have to pay lots of money to some expert
* Doesn't have to learn a martial art
* Doesn't have to buy a gun
* Doesn't have to become paranoid or hyper-vigilant
* Doesn't have to stop going out
* Doesn't have to learn how to fight

All you need is to know the details of the problems you are most likely to face ... and then use a little common sense. After that, it's easy. It's mostly about knowing where you don't want to be and making sure someone can't put you there.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by hamworld05

How about Jeet Kune Do joelr? Bruce Lee practised it.

Bruce Lee believed in breaking barriers of styles, he actually did use grappling, you can see an armbar and a nice scissors takedown in Revenge of the Dragon.

But nowdays I think Jeet is taught as mainly a striking art. I'm saying, big time, no striking art will help a woman much in a self defensive situation. Even the heavyweight world womens boxing champ is useless once an attacker notices she's dancing around like a real boxer or a kickboxer. You cannot stop that guy. He's going to rush you and you'll be on the floor before you know what happened.

Just like every 4th degree black belt who entered the UFC when it first started. Their super kung-fu death touch punch didn't help when their opponent rushed in and tackled them.

When someone rushes you they usually have their arms out in front. Try punching someone when they are running at you with their arms extended.
The odds of you landing a knockout kick (after years of training kicks) while being rushed are really low.
What if the attacker jumps out and grapples you before you even see them or rushes you from behind and tackles you. What is the expert kicker puncher going to do when the fight starts with a heavy guy on top of you leaning on your head?

At least with grappling you'll have practice grappling and starting out the match with someone on top of you just like that. If you don't panic it's not a bad spot to be actually. If the guy on top is untrained it's easy to roll over with the right hip/leg movement and put him in your "gaurd" as it's called. Then, putting him to sleep is real easy.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by ssandra

For back ground see: Personal Safety When You're Out Alone

How effective is martial arts when:

Doing it as a sport
Using it for self defense
Using it to feel more secure about yourself
etc.

(Personal attacks, opinions as to why someone has a certain opinion will be deleted even if the rest of the message might be extremely valuable. Lets just not go there people!)

ssandra, thanks for being mama bear on this one!

Sport: So effective I intend it to be the sport I do when I'm 80. I'll be slower and will have changed to more appropriate techniques, but I will be limber, strong and balanced.

Self Defense: Think I covered this. Anything is better than nothing, nothing is going to work 100%. The more you train, the better odds. Mixing it up helps, i.e. soft and hard arts, stand up, and ground work. Aside from fighting techniques, a good instructor teaches you about awareness, prevention, de-escalation, all kinds of things to do if you can to avoid fighting.

Feeling more secure: Think that's a personal thing. I do. But then I don't hang out in bars much anymore.

And although it is cliche, I have seen our school help teenage boys be calm and centered, and not be consumed by anger and testosterone.

[Cochonette]

I don't really use martial arts for any of those things... I am not advanced enough. I think it takes quite a bit of training before you can use it for self-defense.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by joelr

When someone rushes you they usually have their arms out in front. Try punching someone when they are running at you with their arms extended.
The odds of you landing a knockout kick (after years of training kicks) while being rushed are really low.
What if the attacker jumps out and grapples you before you even see them or rushes you from behind and tackles you. What is the expert kicker puncher going to do when the fight starts with a heavy guy on top of you leaning on your head?

At least with grappling you'll have practice grappling and starting out the match with someone on top of you just like that. If you don't panic it's not a bad spot to be actually. If the guy on top is untrained it's easy to roll over with the right hip/leg movement and put him in your "gaurd" as it's called. Then, putting him to sleep is real easy.

Agree that having a program for when you end up on the ground is a good thing.

Although if someone is dumb enough to charge me from the front with their arms out, I got things for that. We train full contact push kick against advancing opponents. If I have space, I would probably round kick a knee. If it's too close for that already, then it's knees and elbows.

I've become a big fan of muay thai style elbow strikes. Anyone, even girly girls with soft hands can do it, it works well when you are too close to punch and even when someone is grabbing you, and most guys, unless they've trained it, have no idea it's coming.

I guess one thing I haven't blabbed about in all this, is that in self-defense scenarios, the goal is NOT to have a prolonged fight. Well unless you really want to. (or your name is Tyler Durden) But the longer the engagement, the more likely you will get hurt, even if you win. You really want to stop the attack and get away, or at least to a better position. No heroics.

[LostMyMap]

btw joel, I remember that equation on your avatar from school. Thought it was the most profound equation ever. An irrational number raised to the power of another irrational number times an imaginary number, equals -1. Still blows my mind. Don't ask me for the proof though.

[Person Isac]

Here is a link to a Wing Chun master showing some impressive techniques that could be used for self-defense.

Here is a link to MMA fighter Jason Chambers getting poked with a rubber knife a whole lot.

Here is a link to a Martial Development post contrasting the two.

Here is a video of the eminent karateka Masatsu Oyama killing a bull with his bare hands.


Now that I've linked to some things far more interesting than what I'm about to say, here's my take:


Doing it as a sport

This is questionable because it depends on why one does sports. If you are interested in martial arts as sports only, I would say they are very expensive and potentially dangerous at a competitive level.



Using it for self defense

Self defense is not much of an issue if you live in a safe part of the first world. Again, martial arts are expensive and rarely all that useful.



Using it to feel more secure about yourself

No comment.



Personally, I would say one should train martial arts to train martial arts. If you train as exercise, you will get the benefits of exercise. If you train for spiritual reasons (not unheard of) your benefits will be spiritual. Mind you, the better you train, the better your benefits ought to be.

[Brutha]

Krav Maga stuff works on defense but that eye poke or face scratch isn't stopping someone who's full of adrenaline. In the UFC guys have fought several rounds with a broken arm and still won!! I mean a completely severed bone! If you seriously hurt an attacker they may become enraged.

An eye poke also reduces the ability of the opponent to orient himself in addition to being painful.

So with MMA you will have a good standup game, especially footwork, very usefull to stay away and possibly escape.
More importantly is you will learn how to be very dangerous on the ground.

That assumes that all possible fights are 1on1 situations.

[oscardelben]

Originally Posted by joelr

MMA is likely the best for those.

In a self defense situation with a weapon you've got to hand over your wallet or escape.
The only thing left is hand-to-hand fighting, it's likely it would be a man, someone much bigger and they probably will be able to get you to the ground.
Krav Maga stuff works on defense but that eye poke or face scratch isn't stopping someone who's full of adrenaline. In the UFC guys have fought several rounds with a broken arm and still won!! I mean a completely severed bone! If you seriously hurt an attacker they may become enraged.

Even shooting someone who has a knife and is 30 feet away is likely to result in getting you stabbed. I've seen why this is so on a police training video when I was a dispatcher for my local PD for a few years after high school.

So with MMA you will have a good standup game, especially footwork, very usefull to stay away and possibly escape.
More importantly is you will learn how to be very dangerous on the ground.
Grappling is the most important and in class you can always spar at 100% so you learn what it feels like. People with no experience are SO easy to submit in a choke or lock, even if you weigh 100 lbs less.

I used to grapple with one of my instructors who was a 120 lb female and I was 250 and muscular. Although I could win it's only because I was pretty good myself plus the 100lbs. It was really hard to not get submitted by her.

Any man who tried to grapple her to the ground would be destroyed in any number of ways. If he was lucky he'd just get choked out. If not he'd have a broken ankle, knee or arm that would take 6 months to heal.
The best thing about grappling (Jui-jitsu) is that many of the devastating submissions are performed while you are on your back with someone on top of you.

Relying on standup fighting is no good. One of the best boxers alive just fought in the UFC Sat night.
He got taken down immediately and within a few minutes an arm triangle choke was applied and he tapped out, or he would have gone unconscious in another 2 seconds.

I think Krav Maga does some grappling but I don't know exactly how much.
But the fighters aren't "that" good otherwise some top level guys would fight in matches and become rich. Even with MMA rules, if they had any significant skills they would be competitive in the sport but they are not.

So I would say you need to become a fighter to be effective. Not professionally just be competitive in class. At the least take just grappling/JJ and learn how to avoid takedown, submissions etc..

MMA uses violence against violence right? There are no real tactics and the stronger wins, so maybe it's effective when you practice it and then you fight against someone with no experience. In my opinion for self defense it's better to know how to block attacks and escape from an aggressor.

[AGBourne]

I've done it as a sport.

I've done it as self-defense.

Nothing compares to the feeling you get about yourself and your own ability after you immerse yourself in martial arts.

I've always been attracted to combat sports. From being a kid it took me from traditional martial arts such as karate and kung-fu to wrestling, to boxing, to muai thai and bjj. So the martial arts I followed eventually led me to MMA. But whichever you decide to do, you won't be the same person ever again.

I don't really know what you are asking and which way you are wanting to go.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Agree that having a program for when you end up on the ground is a good thing.

Although if someone is dumb enough to charge me from the front with their arms out, I got things for that. We train full contact push kick against advancing opponents. If I have space, I would probably round kick a knee. If it's too close for that already, then it's knees and elbows.

I've become a big fan of muay thai style elbow strikes. Anyone, even girly girls with soft hands can do it, it works well when you are too close to punch and even when someone is grabbing you, and most guys, unless they've trained it, have no idea it's coming.

I guess one thing I haven't blabbed about in all this, is that in self-defense scenarios, the goal is NOT to have a prolonged fight. Well unless you really want to. (or your name is Tyler Durden) But the longer the engagement, the more likely you will get hurt, even if you win. You really want to stop the attack and get away, or at least to a better position. No heroics.

Right but even world class Muay Thai fighters have fought in the early UFC, MANY times. Sure when opponents tried to stand with them they sometimes got chopped down, but it takes repeated kicks on the same spot.
Like I said people still fight with broken bones, you feel nothing, the adrenaline blocks all pain.
But anytime they faced a person trying to take them down they failed miserably.
World class kickers have tried to use front kicks and side kicks against grapplers. On paper they say "I'll just kick his knee out" but seriously, it never works.

I've seen every UFC from 1 to 118, every Pride and other leagues. over 1000 matches and in the beginning for several years it was strikers vs grapplers with everything in-between.

Cung Li who is one of the best fighters for strikes has incredible kicks. But he can't drop an opponent or rely on that one kick before a takedown. When someone is charging you and you lift your leg up, you MIGHT hurt them but not enough, and now your leg is up and the takedown is easy.
Someone taking an art for self defense isn't going to be that great of a striker anyway. For the first several years the kicks just wouldn't be that dangerous.

If someone wants you on your back it's going to happen.

[Cochonette]

That assumes that all possible fights are 1on1 situations.

Does MMA only do one-on-one? My martial art, Aikido, trains with multiple attackers, but a lot of the training is kind of lame because it's so contrived, you know exactly what is going to happen in practice, but not in reality.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

Here is a link to a Wing Chun master showing some impressive techniques that could be used for self-defense.

Here is a link to MMA fighter Jason Chambers getting poked with a rubber knife a whole lot.

Here is a link to a Martial Development post contrasting the two.

Here is a video of the eminent karateka Masatsu Oyama killing a bull with his bare hands.


Now that I've linked to some things far more interesting than what I'm about to say, here's my take:


Doing it as a sport

This is questionable because it depends on why one does sports. If you are interested in martial arts as sports only, I would say they are very expensive and potentially dangerous at a competitive level.



Using it for self defense

Self defense is not much of an issue if you live in a safe part of the first world. Again, martial arts are expensive and rarely all that useful.



Using it to feel more secure about yourself

No comment.



Personally, I would say one should train martial arts to train martial arts. If you train as exercise, you will get the benefits of exercise. If you train for spiritual reasons (not unheard of) your benefits will be spiritual. Mind you, the better you train, the better your benefits ought to be.

No, nothing works against a knife, even a gun isn't going to help you every time. Many police officers have been stabbed after shooting a knife weilding assailant who was standing 30 or even 50 feet away. Once they run at you, even if they have suffered a mortal shot, they still have time to surprise you and stab you. I guess the exception is a head shot. But I saw a demonstration of how quickly the knife guy can close the distance even after being shot and it throws off your shot too.

Even krav maga is probably going to fail, it takes insane skill to apply those moves to someone who is quick with a knife. You've got to run.
It's also extremely rare to be attacked by a knife, usually they just want your $$. You've got to give them your $$, even if you know Krav Maga.

The majority of crimes where a woman is attacked does not involve a knife fight from West Side Story.
It's a sexual assault where you either are good at jui jitsu and can submit the attacker or are at gunpoint and really just have to try to avoid that situation or take a risk and try to escape as soon as confronted.

Being aware of your surroundings is really important. A woman was raped in Beacon Hill years ago but the attacker was lingering around her door, had she seen him she could have kept walking, there were other people on the street coming home from work too so there was an escape route possible.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by oscardelben

MMA uses violence against violence right? There are no real tactics and the stronger wins, so maybe it's effective when you practice it and then you fight against someone with no experience. In my opinion for self defense it's better to know how to block attacks and escape from an aggressor.

No that's not what MMA is.
It's a sport that uses boxing, kickboxing, wrestling and submission wrestling.

Needless to say all those sports are very skill based and blocking, avoiding, countering, kicks, punches, elbows, and takedowns is a big part of it.
Including footwork designed to keep you balanced, circle away from your opponent, move away from strikes, all that stuff.

Just boxing alone entails footwork that allows you to stay away from an opponent (if you have a little room). I would spar with my instructor and I couldn't even hit him. He knew wrestling a little too so even if we practiced some mma and I shot in and tried to at least take him down he would "sprawl" really well and make it impossible. It wears you down also. An untrained attacker would be winded after 1 failed takedown attempt.

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by joelr

No, nothing works against a knife, even a gun isn't going to help you every time. Many police officers have been stabbed after shooting a knife weilding assailant who was standing 30 or even 50 feet away. Once they run at you, even if they have suffered a mortal shot, they still have time to surprise you and stab you. I guess the exception is a head shot. But I saw a demonstration of how quickly the knife guy can close the distance even after being shot and it throws off your shot too.

Even krav maga is probably going to fail, it takes insane skill to apply those moves to someone who is quick with a knife. You've got to run.
It's also extremely rare to be attacked by a knife, usually they just want your $$. You've got to give them your $$, even if you know Krav Maga.

I didn't say anything about knives other than that I was showing footage of Jason Chambers being poked with one. If someone in the video says something, it doesn't necessarily mean that I have the same opinion. I just like to link to interesting content.

As for Krav Maga, there are legit cases of it being successful against knife attacks. Saying "X works, Y doesn't" is generalizing. I do agree though that it probably won't and you do have a very high chance of getting cut up, even if you have a knife too. The only case that comes to mind right away was about an Israeli soldier who was attacked by an insurgent and the soldier was extensively trained and armed with a pistol. Hardly the typical David and Goliath self-defense piece.

We could say Karate works or doesn't work because Oyama from that fourth video once killed a man with a single punch but the man did not have a knife. It's not really important. He's dead anyway.

The majority of crimes where a woman is attacked does not involve a knife fight from West Side Story.
It's a sexual assault where you either are good at jui jitsu and can submit the attacker or are at gunpoint and really just have to try to avoid that situation or take a risk and try to escape as soon as confronted.

True that knives are not often involved in rapes. I never said they were. Personally, I don't believe that submitting the guy is the best option. Maybe if you softened him up with something like an eye-gouge, an ear-tear, a blow to the trachea or a very hard nutshot first but I personally would not tell someone to use sport martial arts in a serious situation. If you know Jujitsu, break something or maybe choke him out if you're very confident.

And yeah, cheese it ASAP.

Being aware of your surroundings is really important. A woman was raped in Beacon Hill years ago but the attacker was lingering around her door, had she seen him she could have kept walking, there were other people on the street coming home from work too so there was an escape route possible.

Here, I agree. Being aware of your circumstances is probably more important than actually knowing how to fight.

[Person Isac]

Hey, here's a funny little tangent. The apartment downstairs from me was just robbed. Seriously. Now, I'm a lifelong martial artist and pretty good at handling myself but I didn't even know it was happening and did nothing to stop it.

I've got a ways to go in terms of being aware of my surroundings.

[Brutha]

Does MMA only do one-on-one? My martial art, Aikido, trains with multiple attackers, but a lot of the training is kind of lame because it's so contrived, you know exactly what is going to happen in practice, but not in reality.

Aikido isn't about fighting on the ground. The part I quoted suggested that it's important to train to fight on the ground.
Fighting on the ground is however really dangerous if there's more than one attacker. If you have a fight in a bar you also don't know if there's more than one attacker.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

As for Krav Maga, there are legit cases of it being successful against knife attacks. Saying "X works, Y doesn't" is generalizing. I do agree though that it probably won't and you do have a very high chance of getting cut up, even if you have a knife too.

Well yeah, it is generalizing because karate could "work" and there are all sorts of variables that effect outcomes. But generalizing is something we have to do all the time. It's a vague but quick way to express a concept with going into detail.
If someone wants to know why someone would say karate doesn't "work" it can be examined further. It's more of a probabilistic statement than a literal statement.

Originally Posted by Person Isac

True that knives are not often involved in rapes. I never said they were. Personally, I don't believe that submitting the guy is the best option. Maybe if you softened him up with something like an eye-gouge, an ear-tear, a blow to the trachea or a very hard nutshot first but I personally would not tell someone to use sport martial arts in a serious situation. If you know Jujitsu, break something or maybe choke him out if you're very confident.

Well a submission ends in a broken arm, leg or being choked out. Usually if you are in a position to do an armbar or shoulder submission you can transition to some type of choke to put the attacker out.

If you take some low-life, jailhouse, beaten by his father, and is now a seriously pissed off phycotic and poke his eye, he'll try to kill you and it might work. Both eyes would be better. But it's easy to miss in combat. Once he realized you're going for eye-pokes as a tactic I think it's likely he's going to start raining down punches.
Submissions are sneaky, usually you don't realize what's happening until it's too late. If he's between your legs and your on your back the triangle choke is right there.
you can probably see it on youtube.



[/QUOTE]

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by joelr

Well yeah, it is generalizing because karate could "work" and there are all sorts of variables that effect outcomes. But generalizing is something we have to do all the time. It's a vague but quick way to express a concept with going into detail.
If someone wants to know why someone would say karate doesn't "work" it can be examined further. It's more of a probabilistic statement than a literal statement.

There's a martial artist I admire very much who often says things like, "In theory anything could happen but typically such-and-such will." I think his is a good attitude to take. Anyway, I agree with you and think both of us have better things to do than quibble about semantics on the internet .

Well a submission ends in a broken arm, leg or being choked out. Usually if you are in a position to do an armbar or shoulder submission you can transition to some type of choke to put the attacker out.

In a circumstance in which the aggressor has a knife, I think this could be troublesome. Personally, I've only trained in the Hakkoryu variant of Jujitsu and so don't know much about submission grappling. However, I think that your methods would be effective if we assume that multiple attackers and knives are out of the equation. Just to be clear, I'm not trying to put you down or anything. I'm just trying to clarify the circumstance as I personally would not be up for grappling if there were edged implements or multiple assailants involved.

If you take some low-life, jailhouse, beaten by his father, and is now a seriously pissed off phycotic and poke his eye, he'll try to kill you and it might work. Both eyes would be better. But it's easy to miss in combat. Once he realized you're going for eye-pokes as a tactic I think it's likely he's going to start raining down punches.
Submissions are sneaky, usually you don't realize what's happening until it's too late. If he's between your legs and your on your back the triangle choke is right there.
you can probably see it on youtube.

I know what a triangle choke is. I wouldn't try it on someone who I thought might bite or attack sensitive areas.

Here are some things that will earn you a foul in the UFC (list courtesy of Wikipedia):

Butting with the head
Eye gouging of any kind
Biting
Hair pulling
Fish hooking
Groin attacks of any kind
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent. (see Gouging)
Small joint manipulation
Striking to the spine or the back of the head (see Rabbit punch)
Striking downward using the point of the elbow (see Elbow (strike))
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh
Grabbing the clavicle
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent
Stomping a grounded opponent
Kicking to the kidney with the heel
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent


There are more but they mostly apply to a tournament setting (no attacking the guy during a time-out and such). My point is that I personally would not recommend using sport-fighting tactics against someone who isn't playing by your rules. Anyway, another point I was making is that if you're going to fight, do some damage. I wasn't trying to say, "Eye gouges alway work" so much as "If you get the chance, take it."

On that same note, if you get the chance to leave without maiming anybody, so much the better.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

Hey, here's a funny little tangent. The apartment downstairs from me was just robbed. Seriously. Now, I'm a lifelong martial artist and pretty good at handling myself but I didn't even know it was happening and did nothing to stop it.

I've got a ways to go in terms of being aware of my surroundings.

Robbed or burgled?

Robbery is violently demanding money from a person. Burglary is hitting the house while nobody's home.

[JSB]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

Hey, here's a funny little tangent. The apartment downstairs from me was just robbed. Seriously. Now, I'm a lifelong martial artist and pretty good at handling myself but I didn't even know it was happening and did nothing to stop it.

I've got a ways to go in terms of being aware of my surroundings.

I knew a guy who was quite good at Chinese internal martial arts and asked him if any of it worked in a real life fighting situation. He said that on the few ocassions he'd needed to use it, it worked quite well, but that the greatest practical defense benefit of his training was that it enabled him to detect aggressive people more easily and thereby avoid them.

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by VinceG

Robbed or burgled?

Robbery is violently demanding money from a person. Burglary is hitting the house while nobody's home.

Then it would be burglary. The robbers called the place and said that they were some courier service and my downstairs neighbors had to pick up a package. Then they broke in when my neighbors were out to pick up the item. Me and my roommate were in our room and thought that it was just our neighbors moving around downstairs. We didn't even notice anything unusual.

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by JSB

I knew a guy who was quite good at Chinese internal martial arts and asked him if any of it worked in a real life fighting situation. He said that on the few ocassions he'd needed to use it, it worked quite well, but that the greatest practical defense benefit of his training was that it enabled him to detect aggressive people more easily and thereby avoid them.

Sounds like my kind of guy. They have a term that's pronounced a little like "ting jin". I think it translates to something like "listening energy". Advanced practitioners of the neijia can know what you're up to almost before you do .

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

There are more but they mostly apply to a tournament setting (no attacking the guy during a time-out and such). My point is that I personally would not recommend using sport-fighting tactics against someone who isn't playing by your rules. Anyway, another point I was making is that if you're going to fight, do some damage. I wasn't trying to say, "Eye gouges alway work" so much as "If you get the chance, take it."

On that same note, if you get the chance to leave without maiming anybody, so much the better.

What I'm saying is that is you find yourself in a grappling situation, having good submission skills could really make a difference. An eye poke is a tool that could help, if you get a chance, but submissions are of the same vein - if you get a chance use it. Getting bit could be a drag but it's often survivable and if you can put your opponent out it could be a life saver.

My grappling instructor had a big chunk bitten out of his arm by someone but he did choke them out unconscious. I don't know if THAT was worth the trouble in that case (probably not), but for a woman being attacked with no one else around (which is a common senario) then it would be worthwhile.

During my 9yrs in Boston there was 1 rape in Beacon Hill and a string of concurrent rapes (5) in the North End, the Italian/Italian restaurant district.
Every time it was a lone attacker. The Beacon Hill guy was caught. The other serial rapist was never found.
All of his victims were submitted by strikes first. Everyone knows how to eye poke, the human hand-eye coordination of an untrained adult is well equipped to perform a close range eye poke. Look at a spot 2 feet away, look how quick you can jab your thumb into it. Yet this wasn't an option, the attacker is looking for some type of defensive eye gouge, when you choose to attack someone like that, they have free reign to perform any type of injury on you, I'm sure those attackers are really on the defense. Self defense courses sort of assume attackers are open too all kinds of attacks.

So having multiple skills is good. Any movement of you arms will cause the attacker to continue striking down if that's his method of submission.
so you might be able to be sneaky with your legs for a triangle or a sudden armbar.
The female instructor I knew, had the ability to do this: the very second I got between her legs while she was lying on her back she would grab one of my arms, before I knew what was happening or could at least throw down a fake punch her legs would be around my arm and one ankle pushing against my throat, pushing my head away, the next split second my arm would be fully stuck in an armbar, her hips pushing against my elbow. She could snap my arm backwards in an instant but she holds off giving me a second to tap out.

There is no time to bite because my mouth is busy screaming in pain (it's also being pushed away by a leg), that's without performing th actual break, just threatening. You tap and scream at the same time.

Her triangle is worse, your between her legs, then it's suddenly like a python is squeezing your arm/shoulder into your neck and you can't breathe. You cannot see it coming. The only thing you could bite is your own shoulder. Your head immediately feels like it's going to explode, your see little stars, get tunnel vision and tap as fast as you can. If you're not fast enough you wake up a few seconds later, people asking "are you ok?". You are ok, just a little foggy.
If she held that choke however you'd be dead or really messed up.

These skills are really last resort things and not always going to work. But I do know when you grapple with someone unexperienced it's not like trading punches with someone unexperienced.
An unexperienced puncher still poses a threat, they can still throw dangerous punches. An unexperienced grappler is still dangerous of course because they can still punch BUT they are so open to submission attacks it's surprising. Unknowingly they almost always GIVE you their neck or arm for a submission. It's something good to add to the arsenal.

But yeah, everyone has to be alert, that's the main thing. I'm not worried about rapists but I for example, do not walk around after dark in bad areas.
If I have to I'd take a cab

[newmark]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Does MMA only do one-on-one? My martial art, Aikido, trains with multiple attackers, but a lot of the training is kind of lame because it's so contrived, you know exactly what is going to happen in practice, but not in reality.

I used to practice aikido, and I agree that it has some flaws, but aikido has practically helped me a few times in my life. Not in a big fight type of situation, but in quieter bullying types. A few times in my life, people who were stronger than me tried to physically force me to do - or not do - something. Punching them, whilst tempting, was not practical, but a wrist lock put on tightly was very practical and very effective.