Effectiveness and pro's and cons of Martial arts

[newmark]

The main pro of martial arts for me is the wonderful affect on my health. I'm stronger and feel better than I would without the training. Learning a martial art really well - so you can just act naturally, without any thought, and with power - takes a lot of time. Not many people get that good, and even if you do there's always someone better. I have used aikido and kung fu techniques to help me and my friends, but I think the confidence martial arts training brings is of more benefit. I've been better able to diffuse difficult situations - and better able to avoid difficult situations - than I could before I had any martial arts training.

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by joelr

What I'm saying is that is you find yourself in a grappling situation, having good submission skills could really make a difference. An eye poke is a tool that could help, if you get a chance, but submissions are of the same vein - if you get a chance use it. Getting bit could be a drag but it's often survivable and if you can put your opponent out it could be a life saver.

My grappling instructor had a big chunk bitten out of his arm by someone but he did choke them out unconscious. I don't know if THAT was worth the trouble in that case (probably not), but for a woman being attacked with no one else around (which is a common senario) then it would be worthwhile.

It could be. I think that aside from grappling leaving you open (even if it works in the end) another issue is how it's relatively more time-consuming to train. As a grappler, you know that it takes a good deal of training and conditioning. I would say that that kind of thing makes sense as a hobby rather than being your resort against rape. So, I'd say that although it could work it might not necessarily be the most efficient use of your time.

Me for example, I practice Kung Fu. It takes up a lot of my time and it's very demanding but I'm in it for the love of the hobby, not to fight off muggers. If I just wanted to be ready in case of a fight, I'd have decided that between practice time, fees, travel and general effort it couldn't possibly be the best solution. That takes me back to my first post on this thread. I practice martial arts for the sake of practicing martial arts. Even if we say that something works or does not it's also key to ask if it's worth the while.

This is mostly why I'd recommend something like Krav Maga or legit WSD over MMA or Karate for self-defense.

During my 9yrs in Boston there was 1 rape in Beacon Hill and a string of concurrent rapes (5) in the North End, the Italian/Italian restaurant district.
Every time it was a lone attacker. The Beacon Hill guy was caught. The other serial rapist was never found.
All of his victims were submitted by strikes first. Everyone knows how to eye poke, the human hand-eye coordination of an untrained adult is well equipped to perform a close range eye poke. Look at a spot 2 feet away, look how quick you can jab your thumb into it. Yet this wasn't an option, the attacker is looking for some type of defensive eye gouge, when you choose to attack someone like that, they have free reign to perform any type of injury on you, I'm sure those attackers are really on the defense. Self defense courses sort of assume attackers are open too all kinds of attacks.

That last sentence is definitely on the money. But if you look back at my earlier posts, I was mentioning other options like a blow to the trachea. I didn't necessarily mean an eye-gouge specifically so much as whatever happens to be available. Mostly, I think that unless you yourself are a skilled fighter the simplest solution is probably best.

So having multiple skills is good. Any movement of you arms will cause the attacker to continue striking down if that's his method of submission.
so you might be able to be sneaky with your legs for a triangle or a sudden armbar.
The female instructor I knew, had the ability to do this: the very second I got between her legs while she was lying on her back she would grab one of my arms, before I knew what was happening or could at least throw down a fake punch her legs would be around my arm and one ankle pushing against my throat, pushing my head away, the next split second my arm would be fully stuck in an armbar, her hips pushing against my elbow. She could snap my arm backwards in an instant but she holds off giving me a second to tap out.

There is no time to bite because my mouth is busy screaming in pain (it's also being pushed away by a leg), that's without performing th actual break, just threatening. You tap and scream at the same time.

Her triangle is worse, your between her legs, then it's suddenly like a python is squeezing your arm/shoulder into your neck and you can't breathe. You cannot see it coming. The only thing you could bite is your own shoulder. Your head immediately feels like it's going to explode, your see little stars, get tunnel vision and tap as fast as you can. If you're not fast enough you wake up a few seconds later, people asking "are you ok?". You are ok, just a little foggy.
If she held that choke however you'd be dead or really messed up.

These skills are really last resort things and not always going to work. But I do know when you grapple with someone unexperienced it's not like trading punches with someone unexperienced.
An unexperienced puncher still poses a threat, they can still throw dangerous punches. An unexperienced grappler is still dangerous of course because they can still punch BUT they are so open to submission attacks it's surprising. Unknowingly they almost always GIVE you their neck or arm for a submission. It's something good to add to the arsenal.

But yeah, everyone has to be alert, that's the main thing. I'm not worried about rapists but I for example, do not walk around after dark in bad areas.
If I have to I'd take a cab

In Chinese martial arts, there are two concepts called "kang" meaning hard or rigid and "yau" meaning soft or pliable (another popular spelling is gang and rou). In broad strokes, striking is kang, grappling is yau. Yau methods are better for defending oneself and not being struck, kang methods tend to be better for hurriedly overwhelming an opponent.

I'm saying "kang" you're saying "yau". The thing is, neither one is inherently superior or inferior so we could argue forever if we had the time. Maybe if you're a big strong guy going against a smaller one, kang is good because even if he hurts you you'll hurt him much more. If you're the small guy and you're light on your feet yau is good because you can wear him down.

So if you're a woman fighting a man, yau is better, right? Maybe. The thing is, you need to know what you're doing to get away with it. So if you work out and practice BJJ five nights a week you've got a pretty good shot at things. But if you're just some random person, I think it'd be better to use a "kang" approach to end things as fast as possible, preferably in an unexpected kind of way. Basically, whatever causes the most pain the fastest is good if you're using that approach.

But whatever's best is ultimately what works. If it was me in a fight, I'd probably raise my hands in a boxer's pose (because that's what people expect) then step close to try to provoke an attack. When it came, I'd try to hook his ankle with a Qishing Bu and knock him over at the knee. I can even do this to a much bigger guy because of the leverage and that I practice my stances and he probably doesn't.

Still, I'd never tell anyone to do that themselves because it's no good if you don't practice it. No offense but it sounds to me like you keep on talking MMA because that's what you know. Nothing wrong with that but the fact that you know about it doesn't make it any better than whatever else.

[AGBourne]

This is all you need to know: YouTube - Bas Rutten Street Defense - The Better Version

[elucidate]

I think Krav Maga does some grappling but I don't know exactly how much.
But the fighters aren't "that" good otherwise some top level guys would fight in matches and become rich. Even with MMA rules, if they had any significant skills they would be competitive in the sport but they are not.

From what I've read, Krav Maga teach purely for survival, not trophies or prizes, at least that is how they sell themselves.

That may be why no one who trains in Krav Maga has "made it" in the big leagues...they just don't care about any of that stuff and aren't into competition...which I actually respect.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by AGBourne

This is all you need to know: YouTube - Bas Rutten Street Defense - The Better Version

It's that same thing, it's hypothetical "self defense" moves. The thing is they don't often work like their supposed to.

Normally if I say something like that it's unfounded but in this case I've seen Bas fight many many times. Even he isn't able to count on many of those moves. Like the kick catch, he never caught a kick in the ring.

But the video does have some good stuff to know, better than nothing.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

It could be. I think that aside from grappling leaving you open (even if it works in the end) another issue is how it's relatively more time-consuming to train. As a grappler, you know that it takes a good deal of training and conditioning. I would say that that kind of thing makes sense as a hobby rather than being your resort against rape. So, I'd say that although it could work it might not necessarily be the most efficient use of your time.

Me for example, I practice Kung Fu. It takes up a lot of my time and it's very demanding but I'm in it for the love of the hobby, not to fight off muggers. If I just wanted to be ready in case of a fight, I'd have decided that between practice time, fees, travel and general effort it couldn't possibly be the best solution. That takes me back to my first post on this thread. I practice martial arts for the sake of practicing martial arts. Even if we say that something works or does not it's also key to ask if it's worth the while.

This is mostly why I'd recommend something like Krav Maga or legit WSD over MMA or Karate for self-defense.

Grappling isn't as hard to pick up as boxing is.
But yeah when I say MMA I mean train hard in MMA at least 2x week. As an actual hobby. Otherwise maybe Krav Maga. I couldn't recommend karate, all that "punch in from the horse stance" stuff is fun but it could get someone hurt if they think they have fighting skills.

Originally Posted by Person Isac

In Chinese martial arts, there are two concepts called "kang" meaning hard or rigid and "yau" meaning soft or pliable (another popular spelling is gang and rou). In broad strokes, striking is kang, grappling is yau. Yau methods are better for defending oneself and not being struck, kang methods tend to be better for hurriedly overwhelming an opponent.

I'm saying "kang" you're saying "yau". The thing is, neither one is inherently superior or inferior so we could argue forever if we had the time. Maybe if you're a big strong guy going against a smaller one, kang is good because even if he hurts you you'll hurt him much more. If you're the small guy and you're light on your feet yau is good because you can wear him down.

Having both is probably the best. Going by actual fights you'll see both concepts being used back and forth. I'm familiar with Chinese arts but we called them Yang/Yin.

Originally Posted by Person Isac

So if you're a woman fighting a man, yau is better, right? Maybe. The thing is, you need to know what you're doing to get away with it. So if you work out and practice BJJ five nights a week you've got a pretty good shot at things. But if you're just some random person, I think it'd be better to use a "kang" approach to end things as fast as possible, preferably in an unexpected kind of way. Basically, whatever causes the most pain the fastest is good if you're using that approach.

I know traditional MA are big on that fast explosive strike that will take out your opponent type thing. In real life they often do not work like that though.
there are zillions of videos of karate/kung fu/tai quon do guys who are very skilled going against someone who wants to take them down and rarely does the traditional MA fare well.
When adrenaline is kicked in, which it would be for an attacker, you don't feel pain. Rich Franklin was recently un-phased when a kick shattered his arm. We went on to win. Frank Shamrock fought 2 entire rounds with a fully broken arm bone.
But yeah, it's worth a try. If it fails and you get taken down then you could try pulling guard if you know what to do.

Originally Posted by Person Isac

But whatever's best is ultimately what works. If it was me in a fight, I'd probably raise my hands in a boxer's pose (because that's what people expect) then step close to try to provoke an attack. When it came, I'd try to hook his ankle with a Qishing Bu and knock him over at the knee. I can even do this to a much bigger guy because of the leverage and that I practice my stances and he probably doesn't.

Still, I'd never tell anyone to do that themselves because it's no good if you don't practice it. No offense but it sounds to me like you keep on talking MMA because that's what you know. Nothing wrong with that but the fact that you know about it doesn't make it any better than whatever else.

That could work. I don't know what I'd do, it depends on the opponent and what he gives me. There are many options. Once I didn't even have time to center myself and there was some guy right in my face and his arm was up so I put an arm triangle on him and hoped for the best. It worked ok, he chilled out. But that's dangerous because you never know. But I thought he was going to smash a bottle over my head so I felt like I had to do something and it was shoulder to shoulder crowded.

Before MMA I studied karate up to green w/brown stripe (2 solid years 3-4x week) and did some Kung Fu with Yang in Boston but the kung fu guys said in china when people want to fight for real, full contact in a ring, they do not use kung fu because it's not nearly as real-world effective as a "fighting art". When one wished to fight against kickboxers the Chinese art is San Chow. It's just like any fighting sport (Maui-Tai, boxing, greko-roman/olympic wrestling, kickboxing) you train bag and pad work, spa and then compete.

So I studied with the Boston San Chow guys. The owner was a kung-fu high level black belt but he also said if you want to get into sport fighting you need san chow or some type of real fighting art.

Personally I was surprised at the disparity between doing karate and getting into kickboxing/MMA. In my opinion working with a fighting art is so much more valuable for surviving a fight. Then came grappling and I was amazed at how much a difference it made not just on the ground but learning how to defend takedowns and to do takedowns. San chow has takedowns too (just no submissions) but it's sort of glossed over.

But ultimately whatever really works best overall has worked it's way into the UFC. So far it's maui-tai, wrestling, grappling, boxing and kickboxing. There is a newer guy in MMA who is a san chow expert as well as wrestler and he's doing well so I think we'll be seeing more Chinese kickboxing in the future in MMA.

The one thing I don't know is Krav Maga, I don't know how well it works for people. It could be better than taking 1 hr of MMA per week for self defense.
I've never heard any feedback on it. Yeah soldiers learn it, but they mainly shoot people.
If I was a woman I think I'd do MMA as a hobby and check out some Krav classes too.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by AGBourne

This is all you need to know: YouTube - Bas Rutten Street Defense - The Better Version

I've posted this video here before! I love this guy.
Love the martial art threads.

[Person Isac]

[QUOTE=joelr;687774]Grappling isn't as hard to pick up as boxing is.
But yeah when I say MMA I mean train hard in MMA at least 2x week. As an actual hobby. Otherwise maybe Krav Maga. I couldn't recommend karate, all that "punch in from the horse stance" stuff is fun but it could get someone hurt if they think they have fighting skills.[quote]

The Horse-riding punch is something inherited from Shaolin Kung Fu. The trouble is it's usually done incorrectly. Instead of punching willy-nilly, first you practice empty-handed punching with one inhalation and exhalation per punch. Then you progress to using less inhalations per blow until you're at thirty punches per inhalation. That trains stamina. Then, you start back at one exhalation while using free weights (old-time disciples used stone locks) until you're back to thirty punches and one exhalation. Then you train striking a heavy bag filled first with sand, then rocks, then iron filings. This ought to take at least a year and a half but by the time you're finished you've got a pretty wicked punch. Also, the horse-riding stance to be used is much lower than what you see karate people doing.

If one trained their punches systematically and properly, they would fare better than people who just punch the air and hope for good results.

Actually, I would discourage boxing altogether. I think it's a very dangerous style to use outside of a ring. You can find youtubes of boxers winning streetfights but that's mostly because they have much better skills.

Having both is probably the best. Going by actual fights you'll see both concepts being used back and forth. I'm familiar with Chinese arts but we called them Yang/Yin.

Ying and Yang are much broader concepts that could apply to pretty much anything. Kang and yau are more entwined with the martial arts. And as for having both, there's an old saying "Hard alone is third class kung fu. Soft alone is second class. First class requires both."

And the Hsingyiquan people like to say, "Internal without external cannot be good kung fu. External without internal cannot be good art."

I know traditional MA are big on that fast explosive strike that will take out your opponent type thing. In real life they often do not work like that though.
there are zillions of videos of karate/kung fu/tai quon do guys who are very skilled going against someone who wants to take them down and rarely does the traditional MA fare well.
When adrenaline is kicked in, which it would be for an attacker, you don't feel pain. Rich Franklin was recently un-phased when a kick shattered his arm. We went on to win. Frank Shamrock fought 2 entire rounds with a fully broken arm bone.
But yeah, it's worth a try. If it fails and you get taken down then you could try pulling guard if you know what to do.

The trouble is, people rely on those techniques without training them properly. If a guy punches a makiwara a thousand times a day, he'll have a very different punch than someone who just talks the talk. Traditional martial arts fail for a few specific reasons. One of the main ones is degradation. No one trains as hard if they aren't staking their life, or at least their honor on it.

For example, most people don't even consider Taijiquan a martial art despite the founder of the Yang lineage being an undefeated fighter.

That could work. I don't know what I'd do, it depends on the opponent and what he gives me. There are many options. Once I didn't even have time to center myself and there was some guy right in my face and his arm was up so I put an arm triangle on him and hoped for the best. It worked ok, he chilled out. But that's dangerous because you never know. But I thought he was going to smash a bottle over my head so I felt like I had to do something and it was shoulder to shoulder crowded.

Yes, I meant more in a walking-down-the-street confrontation. Circumstances are everything.

Before MMA I studied karate up to green w/brown stripe (2 solid years 3-4x week) and did some Kung Fu with Yang in Boston but the kung fu guys said in china when people want to fight for real, full contact in a ring, they do not use kung fu because it's not nearly as real-world effective as a "fighting art". When one wished to fight against kickboxers the Chinese art is San Chow. It's just like any fighting sport (Maui-Tai, boxing, greko-roman/olympic wrestling, kickboxing) you train bag and pad work, spa and then compete.

So I studied with the Boston San Chow guys. The owner was a kung-fu high level black belt but he also said if you want to get into sport fighting you need san chow or some type of real fighting art.

Personally I was surprised at the disparity between doing karate and getting into kickboxing/MMA. In my opinion working with a fighting art is so much more valuable for surviving a fight. Then came grappling and I was amazed at how much a difference it made not just on the ground but learning how to defend takedowns and to do takedowns. San chow has takedowns too (just no submissions) but it's sort of glossed over.

But ultimately whatever really works best overall has worked it's way into the UFC. So far it's maui-tai, wrestling, grappling, boxing and kickboxing. There is a newer guy in MMA who is a san chow expert as well as wrestler and he's doing well so I think we'll be seeing more Chinese kickboxing in the future in MMA.

I don't know about that. To me it always seems like the UFC is just a series of trends getting beaten by subsequent trends. It could just be a matter of time before we start seeing Capoeira in the Octagon.

The one thing I don't know is Krav Maga, I don't know how well it works for people. It could be better than taking 1 hr of MMA per week for self defense.
I've never heard any feedback on it. Yeah soldiers learn it, but they mainly shoot people.
If I was a woman I think I'd do MMA as a hobby and check out some Krav classes too.

I read a book on it once. It was very direct and most confrontations were sealed with a kick to the groin. My brother and I took to referring to it as "Crotch Fu".

It is very much geared towards armed confrontation though. One chapter even gave instructions on how to deal with a frag grenade (get away, get low, start praying).

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by fitx3

I've posted this video here before! I love this guy.
Love the martial art threads.

BINGaBONGBANGBANGSQlCH


5 Insane Fighting Manuals (You Probably Shouldn't Listen To) | Cracked.com

[joelr]

[QUOTE=Person Isac;687952][QUOTE=joelr;687774]Grappling isn't as hard to pick up as boxing is.
But yeah when I say MMA I mean train hard in MMA at least 2x week. As an actual hobby. Otherwise maybe Krav Maga. I couldn't recommend karate, all that "punch in from the horse stance" stuff is fun but it could get someone hurt if they think they have fighting skills.

The Horse-riding punch is something inherited from Shaolin Kung Fu. The trouble is it's usually done incorrectly. Instead of punching willy-nilly, first you practice empty-handed punching with one inhalation and exhalation per punch. Then you progress to using less inhalations per blow until you're at thirty punches per inhalation. That trains stamina. Then, you start back at one exhalation while using free weights (old-time disciples used stone locks) until you're back to thirty punches and one exhalation. Then you train striking a heavy bag filled first with sand, then rocks, then iron filings. This ought to take at least a year and a half but by the time you're finished you've got a pretty wicked punch. Also, the horse-riding stance to be used is much lower than what you see karate people doing.

If one trained their punches systematically and properly, they would fare better than people who just punch the air and hope for good results.

Actually, I would discourage boxing altogether. I think it's a very dangerous style to use outside of a ring. You can find youtubes of boxers winning streetfights but that's mostly because they have much better skills.

For punching I learned it's different in fighting sports than traditional MA.
It's more like learning how to hit a baseball. Footwork and hips are really important, punching from the shoulder is rarely used. There is even a slight lean-in on a jab but the knockout punches and kicks involve using the hips to put your weight and momentum.

Watch clips of Mike Tyson knockouts, when he throws those uppercuts his hips and whole body is turning. Guys who come into class who are good at traditional MA have to totally learn how to punch (like me).
I know some MA guys can generate a really strong chi-punch but while competing you need the boxing style. That's what San Chow uses. I've heard more than 1 artist from China say that.
Even on that History channel show when they went to China the Kung-fu guy said for fighting go learn San chow.

It's just different when you're actually dancing around. The other thing is after lots of bag work, pad work, slipping and parrying punches work you need combination work and then even more so you just need lots of ring time to get used to punches coming at you. I've practiced combinations like crazy then while sparring the guy knows how to circle and move his arms just enough to block strikes and I can't get him at all.
It takes years to even begin to think about letting a jab come at your face and just shifting your head to the side and countering.
All the karate blocks I learned are a joke. If someone sees you committing to a block like that they just fake a jab to get your arm up then hit you.
Or they throw a jab, you block it and suddenly their other hand (the knockout one) is on your face.

Another thing is newcomers lower their other hand while punching or don't know how to protect their face or lower their arm to block a body shot which leaves an opening.
Working on that stuff will help someone get through an attack.

Originally Posted by Person Isac

I don't know about that. To me it always seems like the UFC is just a series of trends getting beaten by subsequent trends. It could just be a matter of time before we start seeing Capoeira in the Octagon.

I've seen all the UFC fights, I see it as a style that accumulates things that work and throws out stuff that doesn't.

The grapplers beat everyone, hands down, it was a joke for the first several UFCs. There were some good fighters too, or at least high level MA guys.

But grappling is still there, it hasn't gone away. Eventually people became good grapplers AND started having good striking powers. The striking that worked was pretty much limited to muai-tai and stuff like Sambo and Vale-teudo which both use american boxing plus real kickboxing.

The real kickboxing is much different than karate which has lots of "lift your leg up and kick from the knee" type movements. Those kicks don't knock people out like in movies and the "point sparring" used for competition doesn't get you prepared for real competition.
The kicks are all full body kicks, getting all momentum and weight and using the hips.

The san-chow fighter who's up and coming is Cung Li. He's been winning fights like crazy with really powerful kicks.

Capoeira is a dance, an exercise, an art. It's not for fighting. They would get seriously hurt just like anyone else would who is not a trained fighter.
You could probably utilize it in self defense somehow but not in a ring. Talk about telegraphing a kick, wow! Full contact Capo doesn't exist.
Even the karate front side kick where you take a step with your back foot first is dangerous because that step telegraphs the kick. Guys will see that step and step in with a counter punch before you can even get your leg up.
Or they'll step into the kick just as it's coming up and grab the leg.

But if you know someone is looking for that step you can fool them by stepping then changing up with something else.

[fitx3]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

BINGaBONGBANGBANGSQlCH


5 Insane Fighting Manuals (You Probably Shouldn't Listen To) | Cracked.com

My favorite....To the balls!

Yes I know, my sense of humor is quite unique.

[Cochonette]

Originally Posted by newmark

The main pro of martial arts for me is the wonderful affect on my health. I'm stronger and feel better than I would without the training. Learning a martial art really well - so you can just act naturally, without any thought, and with power - takes a lot of time. Not many people get that good, and even if you do there's always someone better. I have used aikido and kung fu techniques to help me and my friends, but I think the confidence martial arts training brings is of more benefit. I've been better able to diffuse difficult situations - and better able to avoid difficult situations - than I could before I had any martial arts training.

Yeah... I have yonkyu in Aikido, and I'd still be pretty much inept in a fight. There's nothing I could do without thought yet, not even ukemi. But I also don't train enough at the dojo, where things are actually paced fast enough to be vaguely similar to reality. There, I actually got a nosebleed once.

[Person Isac]

[QUOTE=joelr;688620]
For punching I learned it's different in fighting sports than traditional MA.
It's more like learning how to hit a baseball. Footwork and hips are really important, punching from the shoulder is rarely used. There is even a slight lean-in on a jab but the knockout punches and kicks involve using the hips to put your weight and momentum.

Again, it's all about the system. Fighting like a boxer is actually good against a lot of regular people but leaves you very open to throws. Putting your body into it is something that I've learned but my Kung Fu teacher discourages. When he shows me techniques, he relies mainly on what's called "mid-range power" which uses the strength of the elbows and forearms. As a matter of fact, old-time bare knuckle fighters used their forearms a lot too. You don't see much mid-range power in modern boxing because boxing gloves make subtle tactics like trapping and pressing impractical. My teacher also shows the rotational method of striking (long power) but he says it's easy to see coming and difficult to use repeatedly.

I've also trained Wuzuquan which uses a lot of rotational methods but even there the emphasis is on striking power and using your strength rather than your weight. I have friends who like to use that kind of punch and I find it's not hard to hit them if you know how.

There are people who say that and people who don't. Maybe you've heard of Peter Ralston, the founder of Cheng Hsin. He practiced boxing as well as other things in his youth but when he took to tournament fighting he relied on his Pakua and Taijiquan techniques. Other classic old-schoolers are Tim Cartmell who uses internal principles in his BJJ and Lu Zijiang, Pakuazhang master and oldest living Chinese.

I've seen all the UFC fights, I see it as a style that accumulates things that work and throws out stuff that doesn't.

The grapplers beat everyone, hands down, it was a joke for the first several UFCs. There were some good fighters too, or at least high level MA guys.

But grappling is still there, it hasn't gone away. Eventually people became good grapplers AND started having good striking powers. The striking that worked was pretty much limited to muai-tai and stuff like Sambo and Vale-teudo which both use american boxing plus real kickboxing.

The real kickboxing is much different than karate which has lots of "lift your leg up and kick from the knee" type movements. Those kicks don't knock people out like in movies and the "point sparring" used for competition doesn't get you prepared for real competition.
The kicks are all full body kicks, getting all momentum and weight and using the hips.

The san-chow fighter who's up and coming is Cung Li. He's been winning fights like crazy with really powerful kicks.

Capoeira is a dance, an exercise, an art. It's not for fighting. They would get seriously hurt just like anyone else would who is not a trained fighter.
You could probably utilize it in self defense somehow but not in a ring. Talk about telegraphing a kick, wow! Full contact Capo doesn't exist.
Even the karate front side kick where you take a step with your back foot first is dangerous because that step telegraphs the kick. Guys will see that step and step in with a counter punch before you can even get your leg up.
Or they'll step into the kick just as it's coming up and grab the leg.

But if you know someone is looking for that step you can fool them by stepping then changing up with something else.

Now, you seem to keep circling back to MMA. Now I don't mind talking about that kind of thing but it seems to me like the two of us have been dragging the thread way off the original topic.

At any rate, we've each got so much going on in each post and subsequent multi-tiered rebuttal that I'm not even sure what we're each getting at any more. I think that I'm the "traditionalist" strawman though and you're the Sherdog counterpart. I don't think either of us is going to change his mind. That having been said...

YouTube - Best Capoeira MMA fighter Ever!!!!!! Andre Gusmao

[supertom]

Using it for self defense
I would look at something like "the gift of fear" and "waking the tiger within" as a way to stay out of trouble in the first place.

A lot of martial arts are going to make you feel safer

[supertom]

Originally Posted by joelr

The san-chow fighter who's up and coming is Cung Li. He's been winning fights like crazy with really powerful kicks.

Cung Le, Sanshou Hes not really up and coming hes 38 more likely going out You can't really call him a sanshou fighter(even thou it was his career) cause he has trained heavily in muay thai, wrestling and even TKD its more accurate to call him an all round martial artist.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by joelr

Right but even world class Muay Thai fighters have fought in the early UFC, MANY times. Sure when opponents tried to stand with them they sometimes got chopped down, but it takes repeated kicks on the same spot.

don't know what you watch but I've seen quite a few fights in MMA and muay thai end with one blow. Many things being thrown, but when you watch the replay, one blow that turned out the lights.

Originally Posted by joelr

World class kickers have tried to use front kicks and side kicks against grapplers. On paper they say "I'll just kick his knee out" but seriously, it never works.

A limiting belief. And a generalization. On this forum you will get called out for "Always" and "Never" statements. And there's a difference between a karate style front kick and a front push kick. Different things. And a difference between side kicks and round kicks. And we train this specifically, stopping or disrupting charges. And I have used it successfully.

Originally Posted by joelr

If someone wants you on your back it's going to happen.

A limiting belief. But as I said earlier, it is good to have some groundwork skills for _if_ that happens.

And the whole thing I was talking about with knees and elbows appies to self-defense, not competition. Different things.

It's all about odds. If one of our white belt students has a half dozen techniques down, it's much better than nothing. I can't predict what would happen if she gets mugged. Maybe she will get taken down. But maybe not. The more she knows, the better the odds, that's the best we can do, give people tools. That' why I don't dis Vince's No Nonsense self defense stuff. More tools.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Person Isac

At any rate, we've each got so much going on in each post and subsequent multi-tiered rebuttal that I'm not even sure what we're each getting at any more. I think that I'm the "traditionalist" strawman though and you're the Sherdog counterpart. I don't think either of us is going to change his mind. That having been said...

YouTube - Best Capoeira MMA fighter Ever!!!!!! Andre Gusmao

I don't partake in Sherdog.
I do cycle back to MMA because I feels it's the most effective overall, with proper training.

I remember Andre Gusamo, he was pulled from the UFC because of losses.
He's really pretty good, fast.
But he doesn't fight with Capoeria, as you can clearly see the difference between when he's in the ring using traditional kick-from-the hip- kickboxing and boxing punches and when he's dancing capo with his buddies.

He trained with Brazillian top team and was schooled in real striking, plus he's a high ranking grappler holding a belt in Brazillian Jui-jitsu.
He worked very hard at his boxing/kickboxing and started competing in Brazil in MMA bouts. But only after he became a skilled fighter.

It's similar to Chuck Liddell, he was a pure karate guy once, Randy Coutoure was a just-olympic-wrestler also. But they both worked hard for years at adding boxing and kickboxing and even submissions.

Randy JUST received his BJJ black belt 2 weeks ago. So in MMA you're always working on adding the things that work. It's like Jeet-kun do in that respect, keep doing what works in a fight.

You can see the Cung Li vs Frank Shamrock where Cung actually uses San Chow as it's applicable to fighting against highly trained fighters.\

Personally I'm excited about all MA having the chance to prove themselves in actual matches so we all can learn the best ways to train.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by supertom

Cung Le, Sanshou Hes not really up and coming hes 38 more likely going out You can't really call him a sanshou fighter(even thou it was his career) cause he has trained heavily in muay thai, wrestling and even TKD its more accurate to call him an all round martial artist.

When did he train heavily in Muay thai?
One of my instructors fought him 5x.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

don't know what you watch but I've seen quite a few fights in MMA and muay thai end with one blow. Many things being thrown, but when you watch the replay, one blow that turned out the lights.

No, no, no, I know at SOME point the fight ends with one punch. But counting on one blow (the first blow) to stop an attackers takedown or whatever is not reliable. Even pro fighters who try that first blow to stop the attacker, it's never worked.
There are first round knockout when both fighters are striking but when 1 person goes for a takedown it's generally going to happen on an untrained fighter.
One of the best boxers in the world just fought a grappler, he didn't even get 1 puch, he couldn't stop the takedown and he even trained months for it.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

A limiting belief. And a generalization. On this forum you will get called out for "Always" and "Never" statements. And there's a difference between a karate style front kick and a front push kick. Different things. And a difference between side kicks and round kicks. And we train this specifically, stopping or disrupting charges. And I have used it successfully.

I don't care how limiting you want to call it. I've seen enough kicks from world class kickers trying to stop takedowns. I don't care what happens in some class. What happens in the ring is a more accurate assessment of what's likely to happen.

James Tooney spent 6 months punching his team as they shot in to take him down. I guess it worked in class. In the ring it was a joke.
If an instructor in class is showing how to push kick people away it's disrespectful to suddenly fool him, grab his leg or shoot on him and take him down. If you practice actual sparring with pads, now that would give you a slightly better indication of how push kicks are not stopping a takedown most of the time.
Plus someone could do a fake out shoot,or a distraction jab then dive at your legs before the kick can go off. In Sanchow they become experts at catching kicks also. I'm going by real fights here.

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

A limiting belief. But as I said earlier, it is good to have some groundwork skills for _if_ that happens.

And the whole thing I was talking about with knees and elbows appies to self-defense, not competition. Different things.

It's all about odds. If one of our white belt students has a half dozen techniques down, it's much better than nothing. I can't predict what would happen if she gets mugged. Maybe she will get taken down. But maybe not. The more she knows, the better the odds, that's the best we can do, give people tools. That' why I don't dis Vince's No Nonsense self defense stuff. More tools.

Yes, the more you have the better it is. I'm making predictions only based on ring fights and street fights. If you have a different way of making predictions that's fine. But really, generalizations are the only thing I CAN make. Generalizations are the answer to the question.
I also believe some tools are dangerous because they provide confidence where there should be more caution. Like in Karate you learn how to strike from the horse stance, with your fists at your ribs. A dangerous way to fight.

[Cochonette]

Beating people up for a living is kind of weird, but whatever floats your boat... I do think competitive martial arts can be good for learning to actually use techniques, though... Aikido doesn't usually have that. Nor systema, as far as I know... I don't train systema, but I'd like to. My Aikido instructor brings some systema into our classes.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Beating people up for a living is kind of weird, but whatever floats your boat... I do think competitive martial arts can be good for learning to actually use techniques, though... Aikido doesn't usually have that. Nor systema, as far as I know... I don't train systema, but I'd like to. My Aikido instructor brings some systema into our classes.

You don't spar 100% in Aikido? Often in grappling arts you can spar full on, I mean full on grappling with no punches.

But you get an idea of what works. Sometimes we use punches with pads on to practice getting around strikes to get to a takedown. You can't stop a takedown via punches (mostly), you can stop it with a good sprawl however.

It is a funny sort of living. Timeless really. But with grappling added, many MMA fights end without a single punch landed. I remember Vitor Belfort vs some big black Judo expert guy who's name I forgot, neither party threw a punch out of respect for the fact that each wanted to prove his grappling skills. Judo vs BJJ.
Vitor (BJJ) won via armbar.

[Cochonette]

Yeah, we don't really spar in Aikido. Sometimes informally. Or we kind of half do it during class in some cases, but no one's really trying to "win."

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Yeah, we don't really spar in Aikido. Sometimes informally. Or we kind of half do it during class in some cases, but no one's really trying to "win."

Yeah in Karate we were like that too. You should form a group of akido guys who can get together in a matted room with some pads on and practice in real time. They also have smaller super-padded matts, real thick and soft so you can really do throws.

In grappling you have to learn how to get thrown onto normal matts but that's with an instructors help. I always despised getting taken down hard because I'm heavy. When you're 250 and hard It really shakes your insides up.

[Person Isac]

Originally Posted by joelr

Yeah in Karate we were like that too. You should form a group of akido guys who can get together in a matted room with some pads on and practice in real time. They also have smaller super-padded matts, real thick and soft so you can really do throws.

In grappling you have to learn how to get thrown onto normal matts but that's with an instructors help. I always despised getting taken down hard because I'm heavy. When you're 250 and hard It really shakes your insides up.

The beach is also nice if you live near one. I like grass but I'm a fairly light guy and don't mind a spill much.