Milk Builds Strong Bones?

[ginkgo]

Wikipedia says under Excess Protein "It is important to note here that contrary to popular belief, the consumption of dairy products does not prevent bone loss. In fact, the consumption of dairy products, as it is high in animal protein, creates bone loss. Whenever there is an increase in dairy consumption the rate of osteoporosis and bone fractures also go up."

Protein (nutrient) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excess protein makes the body too acid. The body takes calcium out of the bones to neutralize this acid. Then the product is urinated out. Americans get plenty of calcium in their diet but a simple test shows that they have lots of calcium in their urine.

Reason 2 of why it is better to eat plant foods.

[Leesah]

Ok, I'm very confused!

This goes against everything we (as in..me) were ever taught about calcium and milk!!

I have been thinking about switching to soy milk (or, as of yesterday thanks to this forum have thoughts about almond or coconut milk), just for the fact that I figure cow's milk is for cows as much as human milk is for humans .... are there better milks to drink? What about if you have a child, here in the UK I think most kids drink (cows) milk, it's just what we are 'told' they should drink... what would be better?

People are definitely told to drink milk for calcium, though. I know that is the only reason I ever drink a glass of milk. I was also recently struggling with anorexia and bone density is an issue with that and I started eating cereal with milk for that reason, maybe I did more harm than good then?
What IS good for bone density/calcium? (sorry, I know you only quoted something lol but I'm just assuming you might know!)

[Leesah]

PS. I just ate a yoghurt (kids one, mmm) specifically because it states "helps bones grow stronger" !!! Or is that true?

[russianrocket]

lol of course the information is from the China study...

oh and

Many researchers think excessive intake of protein forces increased calcium excretion.

as soon as researches KNOW, then come and talk to us. And even then, researches have been saying things for so long, and then change their minds to something else later on. I think I'll wait. And I'll stick with raw milk. I think the issue is that people are consuming over processed things, where everything of substance has been killed off. And if animal protein brings up acidity, then eat something that lowers it, which would in turn stabilize everything. A big thing that article seems to focus on is protein shakes and excess protein intake of body builders. That's not a normal intake of animal proteins. That is EXCESS, hence the title of that section, and has nothing to do with the little bit of milk people drink. The whole thing isn't about DAIRY, but ANIMAL PROTEINS. And considering that it says that researchers only THINK that EXCESSIVE intake of protein forces calcium excretion, there is no way for them to be able to say that the calcium in milk would not be used.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Ok, I'm very confused!

This goes against everything we (as in..me) were ever taught about calcium and milk!!

I have been thinking about switching to soy milk (or, as of yesterday thanks to this forum have thoughts about almond or coconut milk), just for the fact that I figure cow's milk is for cows as much as human milk is for humans .... are there better milks to drink? What about if you have a child, here in the UK I think most kids drink (cows) milk, it's just what we are 'told' they should drink... what would be better?

People are definitely told to drink milk for calcium, though. I know that is the only reason I ever drink a glass of milk. I was also recently struggling with anorexia and bone density is an issue with that and I started eating cereal with milk for that reason, maybe I did more harm than good then?
What IS good for bone density/calcium? (sorry, I know you only quoted something lol but I'm just assuming you might know!)

If calcium is a big concern in choosing which alternative "milk" to drink, I'd go with almond milk. Lots of calcium, and only mildly acid forming. The key to not leech calcium is to generally consume more alkaline forming foods than acid forming foods. Vegetables are very alkaline, fruits are mildly alkaline, nuts, beans and grains are mildly acid, animal products, processed foods, fake meat, refined sugar, etc are very acid.
Vegetables also have lots of calcium, although juices are not technically "whole foods", in your situation you may want to look into fresh vegetable juicing. If you're refeeding from anorexia, they may help you get more in without filling you up too much, so you have room for the more calorically dense foods you need
Here's a video on dairy that may help explain why you get so many confusing messages, as well as you will probably do well to avoid them: John McDougall MD on the perils of dairy products
Wishing you all the best

[russianrocket]

All these studies, but non of them for RAW milk products. Ah well.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

All these studies, but non of them for RAW milk products. Ah well.

Nope, we can't know for sure there. My intuition says no, but that's not exactly a scientific source and I don't expect anyone else to base their decisions on it

However, what we do know is that we can get all we need without milk (raw or not), why chance it, especially when there's still a lot of similarities between the raw and cooked (ex excess protein)?

[russianrocket]

Oh look.
Tuoli: China’s Mysterious Milk Drinkers Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet

[Leesah]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

If calcium is a big concern in choosing which alternative "milk" to drink, I'd go with almond milk. Lots of calcium, and only mildly acid forming. The key to not leech calcium is to generally consume more alkaline forming foods than acid forming foods. Vegetables are very alkaline, fruits are mildly alkaline, nuts, beans and grains are mildly acid, animal products, processed foods, fake meat, refined sugar, etc are very acid.
Vegetables also have lots of calcium, although juices are not technically "whole foods", in your situation you may want to look into fresh vegetable juicing. If you're refeeding from anorexia, they may help you get more in without filling you up too much, so you have room for the more calorically dense foods you need
Here's a video on dairy that may help explain why you get so many confusing messages, as well as you will probably do well to avoid them: John McDougall MD on the perils of dairy products
Wishing you all the best

Oh, thanks so much for your response
I've only recently heard of this acid/alkaline foods, it's a shame you don't get taught that stuff in school because it's really never occurred to me to look it up!

Do you know if there is any milk that isn't acid forming at all? Is that impossible? (perhaps I'm just freaking out because I saw the words 'acid causes cancer' in a book I'm reading)

Thanks for your tips, though! I actually have recovered my weight, so I have no special requirements anymore, just wanting to find a healthier way to eat. I'm definitely learning a lot in this forum!

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Oh, thanks so much for your response
I've only recently heard of this acid/alkaline foods, it's a shame you don't get taught that stuff in school because it's really never occurred to me to look it up!

Do you know if there is any milk that isn't acid forming at all? Is that impossible? (perhaps I'm just freaking out because I saw the words 'acid causes cancer' in a book I'm reading)

Thanks for your tips, though! I actually have recovered my weight, so I have no special requirements anymore, just wanting to find a healthier way to eat. I'm definitely learning a lot in this forum!

Well, all replacement milks that I know of are made from nuts, seeds, or grains which are mildly acid, although much less so than cow's milk or even goat's milk. It shouldn't be a problem though, because what matters is your bodies over all pH (which should be around 7.3, mildly alkaline) and the effort it takes to get there (it balance's it by leeching alkaline minerals from bones and other things).
But you can also balance it by eating alkaline foods like fruit and veg, the acid content of a particular food is only useful info in the context of an entire diet

[Leesah]

Thanks again for your reply.
I've just noticed there are two threads in which we're discussing milk right now!

Just looked on my health food store's website - no milk. Then looked on the supermarket's website, typically the only almond milk they have, is BATH milk!

I guess I'm bound to find it somewhere, though.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Thanks again for your reply.
I've just noticed there are two threads in which we're discussing milk right now!

Just looked on my health food store's website - no milk. Then looked on the supermarket's website, typically the only almond milk they have, is BATH milk!

I guess I'm bound to find it somewhere, though.

You can also make it in a blender or food processor. You simply soak the almonds overnight and blend them with the soaking water. Then you strain that mixture through a sprout bag and voila!

[Leesah]

Oh my!

Well, that is certainly something worth considering, then.
Though.. I would much rather buy it already made (I like the idea of making it, but know I probably wouldn't make the effort).
I did find rice milk on that website, so that could become an option.

I'll update when I've bought (or made?) and tried out my new milk ... this is quite exciting!

[russianrocket]

Or instead of looking at his link, which I already trumped, you can drink real milk, and as was mentioned in this thread, eat other alkaline foods as ONE food will not make or break you. It's all about balance. Stop letting these people scare you

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Oh my!

Well, that is certainly something worth considering, then.
Though.. I would much rather buy it already made (I like the idea of making it, but know I probably wouldn't make the effort).
I did find rice milk on that website, so that could become an option.

I'll update when I've bought (or made?) and tried out my new milk ... this is quite exciting!

I look forward to it!

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

Nope, we can't know for sure there. My intuition says no, but that's not exactly a scientific source and I don't expect anyone else to base their decisions on it

However, what we do know is that we can get all we need without milk (raw or not), why chance it, especially when there's still a lot of similarities between the raw and cooked (ex excess protein)?

But it's only excess protein, if you are getting too much protein. Drinking milk does not cause excess protein. All you have to do is balance out your body, and there will not be any problems. It's not like it's being suggested to drink a gallon of milk a day. The china study is not something people should be basing their entire lifestyles on.

[Elrond]

I've given up on understanding nutrition a long time ago. Every other specialist gives different advice and the advice changes every month.

Or so it seems to me.

[elucidate]

I just go with what my body tells me I need...simple. It changes all the time, but if you tune into it, it's a much wiser counsel than any MD or other "expert" IMO.

[Leesah]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Or instead of looking at his link, which I already trumped, you can drink real milk, and as was mentioned in this thread, eat other alkaline foods as ONE food will not make or break you. It's all about balance. Stop letting these people scare you

I'm scared about food in general, it's not anybody here scaring me :P

The thing with me is that I DO have these weird feelings around food (which is not really healthy), so I feel better, mentally, if I know I'm eating right (and I know I'm not eating right, right now, so I'm trying to learn about other foods which will be better... not just milk, but everything I eat). I know it's not just about one food, but I'm not that keen on cows milk anyway, nor cows for that matter, and I have cereal soo much, it's probably better for me to have a healthier milk with it because milk at the moment is something that I do consume a lot of. I like the idea of almond milk having lots of nutrients in it, like secrets0stolen told me.

[elucidate]

Do you know where this fear of food stems from? If you start there it may lead eventually to you having a better relationship with food, and therefore you will feel more comfortable around it? Just a suggestion of course...

Originally Posted by Leesah

I'm scared about food in general, it's not anybody here scaring me :P

The thing with me is that I DO have these weird feelings around food (which is not really healthy), so I feel better, mentally, if I know I'm eating right (and I know I'm not eating right, right now, so I'm trying to learn about other foods which will be better... not just milk, but everything I eat). I know it's not just about one food, but I'm not that keen on cows milk anyway, nor cows for that matter, and I have cereal soo much, it's probably better for me to have a healthier milk with it because milk at the moment is something that I do consume a lot of. I like the idea of almond milk having lots of nutrients in it, like secrets0stolen told me.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Do you know where this fear of food stems from? If you start there it may lead eventually to you having a better relationship with food, and therefore you will feel more comfortable around it? Just a suggestion of course...

This is great idea, while eating healthy is always a great thing, it's much more healthy for your entire being to approach that with a sense of nourishment and love rather than fear
One exercise I like is a pick a healthy food that you really like. I find fruit is good here because it's so healthy and most people like it, but it doesn't have to be fruit.
As you take each bite, focus on how much you're nourishing yourself, that you are doing this because you deeply love and care for yourself, and how good it makes you feel.. Really feel the love behind the action of caring for yourself, and visualize yourself happy, healthy, strong and energetic.

[elucidate]

Yes, I think right intention with genuine self-love and care is important when choosing what to eat. Otherwise you are just doing what you've been told you 'should' eat. Where's the love there? It's just control as far as I can see.

Overcoming mental 'issues' surrounding food is pretty important I think.

Originally Posted by secrets0stolen

This is great idea, while eating healthy is always a great thing, it's much more healthy for your entire being to approach that with a sense of nourishment and love rather than fear
One exercise I like is a pick a healthy food that you really like. I find fruit is good here because it's so healthy and most people like it, but it doesn't have to be fruit.
As you take each bite, focus on how much you're nourishing yourself, that you are doing this because you deeply love and care for yourself, and how good it makes you feel

[Leesah]

Thanks both of you (I won't quote cos it will just get too unorganised lol)... you make good points.

I don't know where the fear comes from as such, but I have a history of anorexia, I developed it from the age of 16 so it seems very natural to me to be scared of food. My relationship with food has been less than unhealthy, it's been a means by which I can 'punish' myself (by not eating) and something that I have constantly put my self worth on (the less I eat the more I am)... I am doing much better now and my mind-set is shifting and through changing the way I THINK about food, and even about myself, I'm feeling much calmer around food.... but I think now, in finding a healthy way to eat I can view it in a different way -- like, I liked your idea, secrets0stolen, of imagining that the food I'm eating is nurishing my body, I think that would be a good exercise for me.

So, I acknowledge I'm lead a bit by my fears when it comes to this, but anything I'm doing now, even if it's not quite hitting the mark yet, is a massive step up from where I WAS. So I'm not too fussed if I'm freaking out about cow's milk, really ... I'm actually feeling quite positive about trying almond milk instead.

[elucidate]

That's great that you can acknowledge this Leesah. I don't know that much about Anorexia to tell the truth, except that it is a dis-ease of the mind.

I guess if you can start there, then you can begin to explore and discover what fears you need to examine, and decide if you want to let them continue to run your life the way they have in the past.

Everyone must face a battle within...those with anorexia, I think have a particularly challenging battle, but if you can start to face it then at least you are starting to stand up to the fear...and that's where your courage and strength can grow. Best of luck

[Leesah]

Thanks elucidate!

I'm learning not to engage in my thoughts and not to be 'stuck in my head'. Not allowing myself to believe I am my thoughts. It's a shame I didn't learn this before, but I think everything happens for a reason, it was a lesson I had to learn and that's just the way I learnt it. Without the anorexia, I wouldn't be going where I'm now going (all this from milk, lol).

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Thanks both of you (I won't quote cos it will just get too unorganised lol)... you make good points.

I don't know where the fear comes from as such, but I have a history of anorexia, I developed it from the age of 16 so it seems very natural to me to be scared of food. My relationship with food has been less than unhealthy, it's been a means by which I can 'punish' myself (by not eating) and something that I have constantly put my self worth on (the less I eat the more I am)... I am doing much better now and my mind-set is shifting and through changing the way I THINK about food, and even about myself, I'm feeling much calmer around food.... but I think now, in finding a healthy way to eat I can view it in a different way -- like, I liked your idea, secrets0stolen, of imagining that the food I'm eating is nurishing my body, I think that would be a good exercise for me.

So, I acknowledge I'm lead a bit by my fears when it comes to this, but anything I'm doing now, even if it's not quite hitting the mark yet, is a massive step up from where I WAS.

I've struggled with eating disorders in the past so I can relate to this, but fortunately I've moved forward and it seems like the memory of a dream You're obviously making tremendous progress and I'm so happy for you

Originally Posted by Leesha

So I'm not too fussed if I'm freaking out about cow's milk, really ... I'm actually feeling quite positive about trying almond milk instead.

I think the key difference here is that instead of depriving/punishing, you're introducing *more* into your life, abundance. At one point you said you liked the idea of it because it's nutrient-rich, that's introducing more of good things into your life, instead of taking away everything as a punishment. You're taking something that doesn't serve you, and replacing it with something that will bring you more good

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Thanks elucidate!

I'm learning not to engage in my thoughts and not to be 'stuck in my head'. Not allowing myself to believe I am my thoughts. It's a shame I didn't learn this before, but I think everything happens for a reason, it was a lesson I had to learn and that's just the way I learnt it. Without the anorexia, I wouldn't be going where I'm now going (all this from milk, lol).

Well I can say one thing, and it may not rub well with your fear thoughts about fat and food etc, but a woman I saw a while back to try and get help on how to gain weight (since that is an issue I've had for a while now) told me that drinking milk is the best way to start putting on weight, as well as eating some meat and using protein shake powder to build up muscle.

Not sure if this is for you, but I think if you have been severely underweight, as with anorexia, it would probably do you good to put some weight on...at least a few pounds...nothing too worrying.

Is this something you can see might be good for your body? I'm assuming you are still struggling to return to some sort of 'normal' healthy weight? I can't be sure as you haven't really provided that information though?...

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Leesah

I'm scared about food in general, it's not anybody here scaring me :P

The thing with me is that I DO have these weird feelings around food (which is not really healthy), so I feel better, mentally, if I know I'm eating right (and I know I'm not eating right, right now, so I'm trying to learn about other foods which will be better... not just milk, but everything I eat). I know it's not just about one food, but I'm not that keen on cows milk anyway, nor cows for that matter, and I have cereal soo much, it's probably better for me to have a healthier milk with it because milk at the moment is something that I do consume a lot of. I like the idea of almond milk having lots of nutrients in it, like secrets0stolen told me.

They say that a big part of why food is not healthy for us is because we put so much mental energy on making out the food to be on healthy. To going over why that food is bad, and what the food is gonna do to us. To feeling guilty about that particular food. This line of thinking has been discussed many times on this forum. That it's not so much the food, as it is US.

[Leesah]

Thanks for your response.

That's interesting to me that you had struggles with an eating disorder, too. In the online communities that I used to frequent, a truly 'recovered' person was rare (and the statistics on it aren't that great). I think most of 'us' were beginning to think it was impossible to actually recover in any long term sense (I've had a series of relapses and recoveries). It's very inspiring to me that you have recovered and see things in a different way now --- for it to only be a memory - fantastic. I'm really pleased for you.

edit: this was to secrets0stolen

[Leesah]

Originally Posted by elucidate

Well I can say one thing, and it may not rub well with your fear thoughts about fat and food etc, but a woman I saw a while back to try and get help on how to gain weight (since that is an issue I've had for a while now) told me that drinking milk is the best way to start putting on weight, as well as eating some meat and using protein shake powder to build up muscle.

Not sure if this is for you, but I think if you have been severely underweight, as with anorexia, it would probably do you good to put some weight on...at least a few pounds...nothing too worrying.

Is this something you can see might be good for your body? I'm assuming you are still struggling to return to some sort of 'normal' healthy weight? I can't be sure as you haven't really provided that information though?...

I'm actually a healthy weight now... so I don't need to focus on foods to help me gain weight. Infact I would very much not be ok about gaining weight. So, I think I will be trying to almond milk, or rice, but definitely not overdoing it. Thanks for sharing that info, though! I was actually never told to drink milk to gain weight... I was having special shakes for weight gain/nutrition but I'm not sure it contained actual milk.