Milk Builds Strong Bones?

[Leesah]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

They say that a big part of why food is not healthy for us is because we put so much mental energy on making out the food to be on healthy. To going over why that food is bad, and what the food is gonna do to us. To feeling guilty about that particular food. This line of thinking has been discussed many times on this forum. That it's not so much the food, as it is US.

Well, in my experience that definitely makes sense

....


Elucidate!! I didn't misunderstand, lol. my response was to secrets0stolen, I just didn't quote her, but I added in an edit. It's just that you and russianrocket replied while I was still writing my reply to secrets0stolen. (just to clear up the confusion)

[elucidate]

Oh great. That's interesting that you were told never to drink milk to gain weight. Maybe for different circumstances it can be an unhealthy way of gaining weight. Whatever works

Originally Posted by Leesah

I'm actually a healthy weight now... so I don't need to focus on foods to help me gain weight. Infact I would very much not be ok about gaining weight. So, I think I will be trying to almond milk, or rice, but definitely not overdoing it. Thanks for sharing that info, though! I was actually never told to drink milk to gain weight... I was having special shakes for weight gain/nutrition but I'm not sure it contained actual milk.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Well, in my experience that definitely makes sense

....


Elucidate!! I didn't misunderstand, lol. my response was to secrets0stolen, I just didn't quote her, but I added in an edit. It's just that you and russianrocket replied while I was still writing my reply to secrets0stolen. (just to clear up the confusion)

Yep, I read the edit, and have deleted my earlier post. No probs.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Oh look.
Tuoli: China’s Mysterious Milk Drinkers Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet

LOL You're ON it,RR-- I just found Denise's site yesterday; She's a former Raw Vegan(though she still calls herself raw,i think) who eats animal products daily..that, and a ton of raw foods. I think she eats her animal products raw? anyway, she Dismantles the China Study The China Study: Fact or Fallacy? Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet and asks Why Campbell didn't look at his own evidence which shows that WHEAT, not animal products is disastrous for human health.
She's a smart, well informed data hound. I suspect were going to be hearing her name around the blogosphere for quite some time.

She wants to help Raw Foodists with the problems they will inevitably face:

"I feel it’s time to share the boatload of research, experiences, and information I’ve accrued over the years, hopefully to help other raw foodists reap the benefits of this amazing diet without stumbling over its potential pitfalls"

Highly recommend this site

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Thanks for your response.

That's interesting to me that you had struggles with an eating disorder, too. In the online communities that I used to frequent, a truly 'recovered' person was rare (and the statistics on it aren't that great). I think most of 'us' were beginning to think it was impossible to actually recover in any long term sense (I've had a series of relapses and recoveries). It's very inspiring to me that you have recovered and see things in a different way now --- for it to only be a memory - fantastic. I'm really pleased for you.

edit: this was to secrets0stolen

I think you'll find that this community is a great place for you and that you'll find heaps of support here.
All the best!

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Wikipedia says under Excess Protein "It is important to note here that contrary to popular belief, the consumption of dairy products does not prevent bone loss. In fact, the consumption of dairy products, as it is high in animal protein, creates bone loss. Whenever there is an increase in dairy consumption the rate of osteoporosis and bone fractures also go up."

Protein (nutrient) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Excess protein makes the body too acid. The body takes calcium out of the bones to neutralize this acid. Then the product is urinated out. Americans get plenty of calcium in their diet but a simple test shows that they have lots of calcium in their urine.

Question is what is "excessive" to the body for protein? Since the early 90's millions of folks who work out have tried the 1.5 gr per pound of lean body weight protein formula with great success. Even 2gr has been well tested.

1.5 gr means if you weigh 150lbs and are very lean you would be aiming for ~200-225 gr daily. At least for athletic folks.

For losing weight protein is the only macro-nutrient that can't really be converted to fat.
Excess protein is broken down into carbon and hydrogen which are used for energy and uric acid which exits via urine.


Right now I'm athletic and I do work out but I'm not a "bodybuilder". I weigh about 227 and am cutting weight slowly. I've been trying a lower protein diet with about 150-175gr daily and am losing a little bit of muscle. It's not even helping me to lose fat quicker either. I'm stuck at 2 lbs per week.

The last 2 weeks I tried eliminating ALL complex carbs and ate only fruit and vegetables for carbs. No real change from that but protein powder, bannana and watermellon smoothies are fantastic.

I'm afraid the only way to accelerate fat burning and to get the stubborn fat off is the traditional 1 small serving of complex carbs daily and no fruit, only vegetables. 4-5 meals, protein every meal. Ugg, boring.

[Bleicke]

Originally Posted by joelr

I'm afraid the only way to accelerate fat burning and to get the stubborn fat off is the traditional 1 small serving of complex carbs daily and no fruit, only vegetables. 4-5 meals, protein every meal. Ugg, boring.

No, no, no, no! Have you heard of Intermittend Fasting? Go to www.LeanGains.com right now and check it out. You're spot on with the high protein for satiety and muscle. But "complex" carbs (that only means they're full of toxic lectins) are not the solution, neither are many small meals. Choose a fasting window of 8 hours a day (say from 12AM to 8PM) in which you eat as much meat and veggies and a bit of fruit, to satiety. Then don't have breakfast the next day until you've entered your fasting window at 12AM again.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

LOL You're ON it,RR-- I just found Denise's site yesterday; She's a former Raw Vegan(though she still calls herself raw,i think) who eats animal products daily..that, and a ton of raw foods. I think she eats her animal products raw? anyway, she Dismantles the China Study The China Study: Fact or Fallacy? Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet and asks Why Campbell didn't look at his own evidence which shows that WHEAT, not animal products is disastrous for human health.
She's a smart, well informed data hound. I suspect were going to be hearing her name around the blogosphere for quite some time.

She wants to help Raw Foodists with the problems they will inevitably face:

"I feel it’s time to share the boatload of research, experiences, and information I’ve accrued over the years, hopefully to help other raw foodists reap the benefits of this amazing diet without stumbling over its potential pitfalls"

Highly recommend this site

we'll see how ginkgo reacts to facts that completely appose his.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Bleicke

No, no, no, no! Have you heard of Intermittend Fasting? Go to www.LeanGains.com right now and check it out. You're spot on with the high protein for satiety and muscle. But "complex" carbs (that only means they're full of toxic lectins) are not the solution, neither are many small meals. Choose a fasting window of 8 hours a day (say from 12AM to 8PM) in which you eat as much meat and veggies and a bit of fruit, to satiety. Then don't have breakfast the next day until you've entered your fasting window at 12AM again.

I have tried some measure of fasting similar to a Sumo wrestler diet but I didn't notice any big changes. I was still dropping 2lbs per week. Which isn't bad, if that's all I can get for now I can still work with that. But I used to get 3-4 lbs.
I looked around the website and couldn't find any specific information, just links to sign up or buy a book. I am curious about the specifics. Not enough to purchase a book though.

These days I'm good at fasting, in the past it would have been impossible. After going through an emotional rough spell with a divorce, etc... my body learned how to not eat for long stretches.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Ok, I'm very confused!

This goes against everything we (as in..me) were ever taught about calcium and milk!!

!)

Science is all about being wrong and learning that it is wrong. They taught the earth was flat. Then wrong. The sun circles the earth. Then wrong. You say "God bless you" when someone sneezes since evil spirits are trying to posess them. But someday people will find that it is just the nose expelling dust.

What is good for bone density is this saying. A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. So everything has to be right that includes healthy plant foods like fruits and vegetables, plenty of sunlight, vitamin D supplements, and weight-bearing exercise.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

lol of course the information is from the China study...

oh and

as soon as researches KNOW, then come and talk to us. And even then, researches have been saying things for so long, and then change their minds to something else later on. I think I'll wait. And I'll stick with raw milk. I think the issue is that people are consuming over processed things, where everything of substance has been killed off. And if animal protein brings up acidity, then eat something that lowers it, which would in turn stabilize everything. A big thing that article seems to focus on is protein shakes and excess protein intake of body builders. That's not a normal intake of animal proteins. That is EXCESS, hence the title of that section, and has nothing to do with the little bit of milk people drink. The whole thing isn't about DAIRY, but ANIMAL PROTEINS. And considering that it says that researchers only THINK that EXCESSIVE intake of protein forces calcium excretion, there is no way for them to be able to say that the calcium in milk would not be used.

It is up to Wikepedia to use the info or ignore it. But it is also from: Kerstetter JE, O'Brien KO, Caseria DM, Wall DE, Insogna KL (2005). "The impact of dietary protein on calcium absorption and kinetic measures of bone turnover in women". J Clin Endocrinol Metab 90: 26–31

Without the above study the China study would not have been enough for Wikepidia to use it.

Someone else above had link to this: Celebrated author, lecturer and clinic director John McDougall MD presents part of the massive research showing that -- contrary to advertising -- dairy products promote a multitude health problems including heart disease, cancer, diabetes and osteoporosis.

On the documentary Pumping Iron, the governor of CA was asked if he drank milk. He said "NO, milk is for babies." Are you drinking raw cow's milk. Raw goat's milk is much better. But the healthiest milk is for you to go to your mommy and breast feed, right?

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by Leesah

Oh, thanks so much for your response
I've only recently heard of this acid/alkaline foods, it's a shame you don't get taught that stuff in school because it's really never occurred to me to look it up!

Do you know if there is any milk that isn't acid forming at all? Is that impossible? (perhaps I'm just freaking out because I saw the words 'acid causes cancer' in a book I'm reading)

Thanks for your tips, though! I actually have recovered my weight, so I have no special requirements anymore, just wanting to find a healthier way to eat. I'm definitely learning a lot in this forum!

See my post above for more on this but lack of calcium is not a problem in America at all. Besides the above that is needed like weight-bearing exercise you need to get boron, vitamin D, vitamin K and more.

The other micronutrient needs for optimizing bone health can be easily met by a healthy diet that is high in fruits and vegetables to ensure adequate intakes for magnesium, potassium, vitamin C, vitamin K, and other potentially important nutrients

.

From: Osteoporosis: the role of micronutrients -- Nieves 81 (5): 1232S -- American Journal of Clinical Nutrition

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by joelr

Question is what is "excessive" to the body for protein? Since the early 90's millions of folks who work out have tried the 1.5 gr per pound of lean body weight protein formula with great success. Even 2gr has been well tested.

1.5 gr means if you weigh 150lbs and are very lean you would be aiming for ~200-225 gr daily. At least for athletic folks.

.

How many pounds is 225 grams? Do you have any idea since you do not eat food by the gram but you eat food by the pound. I go to buffet cafes where they charge you for the food by the pound (like $8 a pound). 225 grams is a half a pound of protein. 225 / 28 (grams per ounce) = 8.05 ounces. This cardiologogist turned down a 1 and a half pound of steak since she was watching her cholesterol in another post of mine. That is 1 pound of protein right there or 450 grams. Joel Fuhrman, MD says that Americans eat 5 times the protein that they need. American Dietetic Association says that vegans eat twice the protein that they need.

You can picture a 1 and half pound of steak right? What if the menu said a 672 gram steak? Would you have any idea of what that is? They are the same. So 225 sounds like a lot more than a half a pound.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

How many pounds is 225 grams? Do you have any idea since you do not eat food by the gram but you eat food by the pound. I go to buffet cafes where they charge you for the food by the pound (like $8 a pound). 225 grams is a half a pound of protein. 225 / 28 (grams per ounce) = 8.05 ounces. This cardiologogist turned down a 1 and a half pounf of steak since she was watching her cholesterol in another post of mine. That is 1 pound of protein right there or 450 grams. Joel Fuhrman, MD says that Americans eat 5 times the protein that they need. American Dietetic Association says that vegans eat twice the protein that they need.

You can picture a 1 and half pound of steak right? What if the menu said a 672 gram steak? Would you have any idea of what that is? They are the same. So 225 sounds like a lot more than a half a pound.

Most people eat an 8 ounces steak when they go out to eat. There for 225 grams of MEAT is what most people eat, which is half a pound, and does NOT sound like more than half a pound, because IT'S NOT. And even then, only 67 grams of that steak is actually protein. 672 gram steak is still ONLY 200 grams of protein. I think you are mistaking grams of meat with grams of protien, where you are incredibly wrong in doing so. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then why are you debating the subject?

What else you got? And why do you keep bringing up that cardiologist. Eating a 22 ounce steak is TOUGH. It's not something people would do every day. They can eat that one day, and not eat the same for a week or more. There for it's not 22 ounce steaks EVERY DAY. Very bad argument on your part there.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

How many pounds is 225 grams? Do you have any idea since you do not eat food by the gram but you eat food by the pound. I go to buffet cafes where they charge you for the food by the pound (like $8 a pound). 225 grams is a half a pound of protein. 225 / 28 (grams per ounce) = 8.05 ounces. This cardiologogist turned down a 1 and a half pounf of steak since she was watching her cholesterol in another post of mine. That is 1 pound of protein right there or 450 grams. Joel Fuhrman, MD says that Americans eat 5 times the protein that they need. American Dietetic Association says that vegans eat twice the protein that they need.

You can picture a 1 and half pound of steak right? What if the menu said a 672 gram steak? Would you have any idea of what that is? They are the same. So 225 sounds like a lot more than a half a pound.

Like RR pointed out, your calculations are off. By weight a steak is mostly fat and "stuff" that gets removed as waste. A decent size piece of lean steak is around 50 gr protein. A double quarter pounder is exactly 50 gr protein.

It's obvious to me, despite what "studies" say, that:

1. Studies are often wrong when it comes to nutrition

2. 1.5 gr protein per lb of lean bodyweight is well tested with 30 or 40 years of use by athletes. But I only jump in here because I have my own experience. When my protein gets below that ratio I lose muscle. I think many vegans obviously go below that ratio and have stick-like bodies.
The only muscular vegans I've seen are folks who consume high amounts of soy protein.

I'm not putting down the skinny look and there may be folks out there who were already skinny then became vegan and didn't actually lose any further muscle. My experience is really only with people who have built up their physiques with exercise. So at least in that case I find high protein to be a component.


But it is kind of weird to hear about studies saying people eat too much protein. Considering it's well known that weight gain is mainly from crazy amounts of complex and simple carbs we consume. Plus high amounts of fat from things like pizza, fatty meats, fried foods, cream, butter. Millions of people start their day with donuts and coffee with high cream and sugar. Then drink soda all day and eat a junk food lunch and supper.

It's hard to eat too much protein anyway. Who ever overeats egg whites, fish, chicken or even steak? It's not the steak in that meal it's the carbs from the beer, french fries, bread, and dessert that make the meal into "overeating".

On top of that most of the time extra protein can't turn into bodyfat!!!
It's broken down into carbon, hydrogen and uric acid. It takes a certain hormone balance to convert protein into fat. A balance that isn't found when the body is well fed.


All you have to do is go to the gym for 1 year. Build up some muscle. Then experiment with different protein ratios. Then you will see how the current ideas on protein for athletes are correct.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Most people eat an 8 ounces steak when they go out to eat. There for 225 grams of MEAT is what most people eat, which is half a pound, and does NOT sound like more than half a pound, because IT'S NOT. And even then, only 67 grams of that steak is actually protein. 672 gram steak is still ONLY 200 grams of protein. I think you are mistaking grams of meat with grams of protien, where you are incredibly wrong in doing so. If you can't tell the difference between the two, then why are you debating the subject?

What else you got? And why do you keep bringing up that cardiologist. Eating a 22 ounce steak is TOUGH. It's not something people would do every day. They can eat that one day, and not eat the same for a week or more. There for it's not 22 ounce steaks EVERY DAY. Very bad argument on your part there.

I use the example of the cardiologist since it actually happened according to a 2008 book, Anticancer, by an MD. It is not an imaginary example of what people eat. Also look closely and you will see that in that actual, not imaginary, example of 1.5 pounds of meat, I said 1 pound of protein using the figure of meat being 70% protein. So I did not confuse meat with protein.

Joelr said "-225 gr daily." Daily is not per meal but per day. I eat one meal a day like Buddha did, but it is suggested that people eat like 6- 80 meals a day. Actually that is 8 not 80. So that was an actual mistake. Also all foods have protein (not including man-made foods like jelly beans and gummy bears). Now people eat other things besides meat. For example is a bagel a high protein food? My answer is I do not know how high is high but a bagel has 9 grams of protein in it. The above figure by the ADA that I gave (vegans eat twice the protein) was not just made up. Here is an article by an MD about vegans getting plenty of protein.

Protein in the Vegan Diet -- The Vegetarian Resource Group

In the Anticancer book the MD says here is where the problem is. Americans are brought up to believe that they should have a big piece of meat or a big piece of tofu with a little vegetables. I added the tofu part. The MD says that Americans need to think lots of vegetables with a little bit of meat (or few toes). That is another mistake. I mean tofu not few toes. It is an easy mistake to make. I am not perfect-- I make steaks.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by joelr

. A double quarter pounder is exactly 50 gr protein.


It's hard to eat too much protein anyway. Who ever overeats egg whites, fish, chicken or even steak?

.

I read the above before answering Russian Rocket's question in case he goes ballisitic. That is a joke. Rocket -- ballistic. So read that response.

The other stuff you said did not apply to what I wrote. I was going by the figure you gave. Be honest. Do you eat a double quarter pounder and nothing else and that totally fills you up? I weigh 110 pounds and tried one so I can say that I have eaten one in my life and I was not filled up. Actually I ate it with fries and was not filled up.

Hard to eat protein? A bagel has 9 grams of protein. I am a vegan and bought meat today at Trader Jims. It is Trader Joes cousin. Just kidding! What kind of meat do vegans eat? Trader Joes pistachio nutmeats. I like pistachios as a snack. I do not eat it as a meal. Two ounces of it is 12 grams protein according to the label. I also bought organic raisins. They are dried grapes! A half a cup has 2 grams of protein. Their 4 ounce smoke herring has 12 ounces of protein.

There is this beautiful young woman at Trader Joes that I like. I have told her before that she looks adorable and I like how she is very slender. She has thin bones. She works there. I said hello to her and asked how she was doing while getting my free mini coffee and asked about how she likes giving out samples as opposed to cashier. Then I did the rest of my shopping. So I came back and said that I am done shopping and going home. & have a nice day. She said the sme to me. So then I added "It was really nice seeing you" and she said the same to me with a nice smile.

This site Too much protein can harm your body - on MedicineNet.com says

She [PhD, RD] says that's because a diet in which protein makes up more than 30% of your caloric intake causes a buildup of toxic ketones.

Also this thread is about milk and some people do not trust the China Study. this site Side Effects of Too Much Protein in the Diet - LoveToKnow Diet says

Another issue regarding getting too much protein is leeching of calcium from the bones. The acids released by the body as it digests protein are absorbed with the help of calcium. So if you aren't getting enough calcium, your body will take calcium from your bones. The Nurses Healthy Study even showed that women who ate more than 95 grams of protein were more likely to have broken their wrist than were women who ate less protein.

NHS :: The Nurses’ Health Study

This is some college site since it says .edu The Dangers of having too much protein

It be say (that's ebonics)

High protein intake is also associated with an increased risk of osteoporosis due to calcium loss. When protein is digested, amino acids break apart and pass into the blood making the blood slightly acidic. Since your body needs to have a balanced pH level, calcium is pulled from the bones to neutralize acidity. Therefore, the more protein you have in your diet, the more acidic your blood will be and the more calcium that will be needed. Animal proteins (i.e. meats) are the main culprit of this cycle; grains, beans, vegetables, and fruits act as calcium savers.

In addition to calcium loss, maintaining a low-carbohydrate intake may be associated with an increase in blood pressure with age due to deficiencies of high-carbohydrate, high-fiber foods that protect against hypertension.

Note that I am not just talking off the top of my head. I am giving authoritative sources.

How much protein is too much? - Sun Sentinel This says:

The Department of Health and Human Services says your need for protein depends on weight and activity level. A 130-pound average adult needs 47 grams [every 1,000 years], the amount you would get in 3 ounces of cooked chicken, 8 ounces of yogurt and 2 tablespoons of peanut butter.

I inserted in 1,000 years since it did not say the time span. That is stupid. It is like saying "I make $60."

[russianrocket]

Again, meat is NOT 70% protien. And again, most people eat about 8 ounces of meat . NOT 1 1/2 pounds. And if they do, it is NOT every single day.

Even through out a day, it is fairly hard to get 220 grams of protien, and very hard to over do protien. UNLESS you are a body builder and take a bunch of protien shakes. Yes, it might make our bodies more acidic, but that's if you are talking about a person that only eats meat. We aren't talking about those people. Hell, almost everyone on here can agree that the typical SAD diet is NOT good for you. A BALANCED diet means exactly that. It will be balanced and there for keep your body in balance. It won't leach any calcium from your bones, because you will be BALANCED.

Traditional Inuit diets derive, at most, 35-40% of their calories from protein, with 50-75% of calories preferably coming from fat. You can flame the typical western diet all you want, and I'll be right there with you. But DO NOT blame the meat for that. Blame the people, and blame the meat factories for that.

Yes, it's hard to eat protien. You try to eat 24 bagels in a day. Go ahead, try it. It will be a major pain in the ass. Go ahead, try and calculate 220 grams of protien into a typical diet, and figure out how much food actually has to be eaten. And with that in mind, don't forget to include the other non protien rich foods, as the protein from the other foods should only be a certain % of your daily intake.

if you are calculating .35 grams of protien per lb of body weight, then yeah, vegans eat twice what they should. But that calculation is completely erroneous. Just like the food pyramid was held at the highest standard of nutrition, yet now we all know that it's completely crap.

50 grams of protien for the typical adult is CRAP. You can get that quite easily eating very healthy, and far surpass that. If you claim that vegan diet is so great, and you claim the RDA is so great, then why is it that a healthy vegan eats twice the recommended amount of protein? Which is it? Is the vegan not healthy, or is the RDA wrong?

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

it is suggested that people eat like 6- 80 meals a day. Actually that is 8 not 80.

Wow, I was really excited for a moment there!

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

50 grams of protien for the typical adult is CRAP [I guess you mean daily].

[Source-- Russian Rocket]

How can anyone argue with the science in that?

The RDI of protein for adults is 50 grams. Wiki. says:

Reference Daily Intake (or Recommended Daily Intake) (RDI) is the daily dietary intake level of a nutrient which was considered (at the time they were defined) to be sufficient to meet the requirements of nearly all (97–98%) healthy individuals in each life-stage and sex group. The RDI is used to determine the Daily Value which is printed on food labels in the U.S., Canada, and Australia. RDIs are based on the older Recommended Dietary Allowances (RDA) from 1968.

Webmd says under protein:

Adult men need about 56 grams a day.
Adult women need about 46 grams a day.

The college textbook, Understanding Nutrition, says that protein deficiency is rare in the world and non-existant in the industrialized countries.

Joel Fuhrman, MD says in his books that Americans eat 5 times the protein that they need and this is a big reason why 40% of Americans have high blood pressure.

There are lots of MDs, what is special about this one. Here Dr Oz introduces him as the expert on nutrition. YouTube - Joel Fuhrman, MD w/ Mehmet Oz, M.D. - health / weightloss

Hundreds of medical doctors utilize Dr. Fuhrman s Eat For Health system in their medical practice.

Dr. Fuhrman is the founder of the high nutrient eating style and a pioneer in the growing field of nutritional medicine.

Thousands who have recovered from their medical problems have been calling Dr. Fuhrman s Eat For Health program a medical miracle. We are not just talking about the people who have lost their excess weight after failing for years on one diet after another, but diseases, such as heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, allergies, asthma, autoimmune illnesses (including lupus) and headaches have simply melted away.

Dr. Fuhrman s MANDI food and meal scoring system (patent pending) lets you know exactly how healthy your diet is [Whole Foods uses it]

He coined the word nutritarian for nutrient dense diet.

All the above quotes are from Amazon.com: Eat For Health: Lose Weight, Keep It Off, Look Younger, Live Longer…

[James81]

80 meals a day sounds fun.

meal 1: 1 peanut
meal 2: a grape
meal 3: a teaspoon Grape Nuts
Etc.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

LOL You're ON it,RR-- I just found Denise's site yesterday; She's a former Raw Vegan(though she still calls herself raw,i think) who eats animal products daily..that, and a ton of raw foods. I think she eats her animal products raw? anyway, she Dismantles the China Study The China Study: Fact or Fallacy? Raw Food SOS: Troubleshooting on the Raw Food Diet and asks Why Campbell didn't look at his own evidence which shows that WHEAT, not animal products is disastrous for human health.
She's a smart, well informed data hound. I suspect were going to be hearing her name around the blogosphere for quite some time.

What a coincidence, I just found Denise's blog via the Animal Pharm blog and was going to post about it here. Should I create a separate thread? I think it's well-worth it to read her entire six-part series, although the one on the dairy and meat-eating Tuoli is one of the best.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Originally Posted by liamona

What a coincidence, I just found Denise's blog via the Animal Pharm blog and was going to post about it here. Should I create a separate thread? I think it's well-worth it to read her entire six-part series, although the one on the dairy and meat-eating Tuoli is one of the best.

Yeah, it probably deserves it's own thread.The blogosphere is pretty much going through the roof with this, with the vegans grasping for credible responses. it's heating up nicely and of course, Banana Girl seems really pissed about this LOL

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

Yeah, it probably deserves it's own thread.

OK, I just posted it.

The blogosphere is pretty much going through the roof with this, with the vegans grasping for credible responses.

Oh yeah? I haven't read any yet. I'm just barely making a dent in the "The China Study Smackdown Roundup" at the Free The Animal blog.

I can see why the blogosphere is going apeshit over this blog series. Not only does Minger crunch the numbers, but she even takes away some variables (like cadmium intake or smoking) to show how that can influence the numbers. As someone who is severely numbers-challenged, I really appreciate that.

it's heating up nicely and of course, Banana Girl seems really pissed about this LOL

Is she? I'll have to take a look. But now I've forgotten what her real name is!

[liamona]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

lol of course the information is from the China study...

OMG, you're right! I thought you were kidding, so I looked at the Wiki entry on Protein and the reference to "excessive" consumption.

I'm not surprised, but Wikipedia is only good for a quick search. And even so, it's always good to look at its references.

And I'll stick with raw milk. I think the issue is that people are consuming over processed things, where everything of substance has been killed off. And if animal protein brings up acidity, then eat something that lowers it, which would in turn stabilize everything.

Exactly. However, I don't think raw dairy is acidifying, but pasteurized dairy probably is.

Raw meat is probably not acidic either. But cooked meat made with bone broth won't be acidic because of the minerals in the broth will be alkalizing. It's too bad people are losing the ability to cook properly! I wish they wouldn't blame the food for people's ignorance.

If milk was bad, then the Masai, the isolated Swiss villagers living in the Loetschental Valley, and the Chinese living in the Tuoli province (which Campbell knows about but didn't mention in The China Study) wouldn't have been so healthy consuming tons of it.

Of course, the milk was raw from grass-fed cows.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The other stuff you said did not apply to what I wrote. I was going by the figure you gave. Be honest. Do you eat a double quarter pounder and nothing else and that totally fills you up?

Absolutely. In the "mass" season I do eat double QPs occasionally. 50gr protein, 50 gr fat, 25gr complex carb. It's a good mass building meal. Rather unhealthy fat but I allow higher levels of saturated fat on a short mass phase. But never ever would I think of adding fries or anything else to that. It would be instant bodyfat accumulation. No soda either. I think in terms of grams of fat/protein/carbs.

You have to think a little outside the box, a hamburger does not automatically mean french fries and a milkshake or soda.
Unless it's an absolute cheat meal.

Originally Posted by ginkgo

Hard to eat protein?

Note that I am not just talking off the top of my head. I am giving authoritative sources.

How much protein is too much? - Sun Sentinel This says:

The Department of Health and Human Services says your need for protein depends on weight and activity level. A 130-pound average adult needs 47 grams [every 1,000 years], the amount you would get in 3 ounces of cooked chicken, 8 ounces of yogurt and 2 tablespoons of peanut butter.

Right but protein isn't the reason for the big problems, in fact the gap between any protein related problem and carb/fat related obesity, heart attack, strokes etc.. is huge.

Like I said I can't really say what protein requirements for the average person are but the ratio of 1 or 1.5 per lb of lean bodyweight for athletic individuals works remarkably well. Bill Phillips has held that EAS physique transformation contest for over 110 years now. That was a mistake. I meant to say 10 years. That was Ginko humor. So was that.

Anyway there are photos of 1000's of incredible transformations from chubby fat to shredded and muscular. They all follow the high protein ratio. It works incredibly well. This diet phase I dropped my protein to 150 gr daily for a while to save $$. I lost weight SLOWER, lost muscle and didn't respond to workouts at all.

The ratio you gave for average people is about .5 gr per lb of lean bodyweight.

I think of high protein as following that ratio and eating 30-50 gr per meal. Your body can't absorb more than 50 gr at one sitting anyway.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

This site Too much protein can harm your body - on MedicineNet.com says

This article is misleading. It refers to a low carb Atkins type diet (ketogenic) and calls it a "diet with protein being 30% or higher".

They don't spell it out (intentionally) that they are referencing a diet with 20gr or less of carbs, which is the only way to induce ketones.

The version of high protein I mean includes at least 1 serving of complex carbs daily, about 40gr, plus another 40 from huge fruit and vegetable consumption making ketosis impossible.

Then ANOTHER false pull toward anti-protein is the claim of dehydration which leads to stress on kidneys. It is true but any and every source that gives a high protein diet also states to drink a gallon of water daily. That replaces water lost during exercise, keeps kidneys healthy, transports nutrients etc..

See how these articles are useless.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by liamona

OMG, [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_%28nutrient%29#cite_note-13"]you're Exactly. However, I don't think raw dairy is acidifying, but pasteurized dairy probably is.

Raw meat is probably not acidic either. But cooked meat made with bone broth won't be acidic because of the minerals in the broth will be alkalizing. It's too bad people are losing the ability to cook properly! I wish they wouldn't blame the food for people's ignorance.

.

If you knew how this was determined, you would see that this does not matter, raw, cooked or burnt to an ash. I guess you know that there are many fruits that have a strong acid like citris but they are alkaline.

Here is how they figure this out. They get a psychic reader to mind scan it. Just kidding. It is simple chemistry similar to what I did as a chemist for the federal government. I had to determine if certain materials like for clothes would become too acid or alkaline under adverse conditions. It is a PH test.

So how does a PH test show that acid fruits are alkaline. The food is taken and burnt until it is a ash. Then they measure the PH. So if you take an acid fruit and burn it into an ash, then it is alkaline.

[russianrocket]

ginkgo, you are kinda glazing over a lot of what has been said. Just because you don't respond to it, doesn't mean your argument is correct and everyone will just forget all about it.

[Beuford]

On the plus side one thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that plant protein and plant cholesterol won't give you cancer.

Originally Posted by Excellent Lodestar

Why Campbell didn't look at his own evidence which shows that WHEAT, not animal products is disastrous for human health.

Why aren't animal products disastrous for human health? I already know that wheat is bad for you, that is why I don't eat it, but meat doesn't care about wheat, and has no feelings towards you at all, so it isn't going to be good for you just because wheat is bad for you. I already know that meat is bad for you too because I stopped eating that and gained benefits from doing so. Now humans are wrong sometimes so I could be wrong and drop dead tomorrow from a protein deficiency but I could have also been wrong if I chose to believe meat is good for your health and I could have found out when I am 68 years old that I have some kind of cancer that vegans don't get or heart disease from clogged arteries(not from all the plant cholesterol I consumed) or osteoporosis from my calcium being in my urine or something. On the plus side I'd have enough protein to put on an additional forty kilograms of muscle so I'd weigh 97kg instead of 57kg.