Vegan sources of vitamin B12

[The David]

I recently wrote a research paper on strict vegetarianism. The research seemed to indicate that veganism was adequate, and even ideal. However, the only source of B12 that I heard of was an oral supplement. Is it possible to be vegan and get B12 naturally?

[Cron]

Jack Norris is a registered dietitian (RD) and cofounder of Vegan Outreach :
Vegan Outreach -- Ending Cruelty to Animals

He maintains a sub0site called "Vegan Health"
Vegan Health.org : Home

He has written several articles on b-12. All cover the same ground, but some are shorter for people who aren't interested in details and others are longer for people who really want to get educated. Even the longer versions are not that long and are probably the best information on b-12 you will get anywhere:

Articles : Vitamin B12

[Erin Pavlina]

It used to be possible to be vegan and get B12 naturally. But top soil erosion has made that difficult. B12 was found in top soil and as you probably know, our top soil is losing ground (no pun intended).

Today most vegans rely on supplemental B12. The amount needed in an entire year would fill a thimble, so we're talking micrograms, not even grams.

[ChefSalad]

Oops, I just posted this info in a different thread. Anywho, vegemite and marmite are great sources of B12, as they are mostly yeast and salt. I do believe that they are vegan although they may only be vegetarian. Unless vegans don't eat yeast, but every vegan I've ever known liked bread so I doubt it.

[Matt]

There is some B12 in Rice Dream (rice milk). I don't think this counts as natural, but it beats having to take vitamins.

[Cron]

It isn't enough just to get b-12, you have to get enough, and get it on a regular basis.

[jmartinez]

Currently, I take spirulina for my B-12 vitamin need. Lots of info about this wonderful "food" item on the net. Check it out.

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by jmartinez

Currently, I take spirulina for my B-12 vitamin need. Lots of info about this wonderful "food" item on the net. Check it out.

It's interesting that it comes in powder or pill form, yet it was food for our ancestors. How did they eat it? I imagine it wasn't nearly as processed back then.

[kat]

Originally Posted by jmartinez

Currently, I take spirulina for my B-12 vitamin need. Lots of info about this wonderful "food" item on the net. Check it out.

Not a good idea! Very close to every vegan book or website I've read says that spirulina and other vegan foods are not a reliable source of B12. Spirulina may provides B12 analogues, but these aren't B12, and can actually be a net negative. b12 vegan spirulina - Google Scholar
has studies; general information can be found with searches like b12 vegan spirulina on google (rather than google scholar).

[I should note that vegan B12 supplements are a perfectly good source of B12 - the problem isn't whether a source is vegan or not, but rather whether it reliably provides actual B12.]

[tobyhede]

Ah ... vegemite.

Of course, only people who grew up in Oz can stomach it, but it is pretty good for you.

[Jaben]

Nutritional yeast is usually fortified with B12 produced by bacteria according to Nutritional yeast - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you would like to get to the most direct vegan source, drink kombucha. Kombucha tea has an excellent source of B12 that is not fortified from a separate source. It is a raw living food as well as vegan. 16 ounces of GTS Kombucha contains 20% of the RDA for B12 as well as the other B vitamins.

[cgs]

I take a B complex vitamin, which says on the label that each pill is 833% daily value. (What the hell?) After I take one of these, my urine is a neon yellow color, which means I'm just peeing most of it away. So, I break the pills in half and take a half a vitamin every other day or so. Hopefully its enough.

[Strangemagik]

Its in soy milk too. Atleast fortified so I think thats not naturally. But doesn't your body hold it until its needed so it can be hard to NOT have enough.

[veglin]

I go for spirulina (organic of course) personally, have for years now and find it great!

[Lotus]

Good to note: if you are really worried about supplementing b12, go for the activated form: methylcobalamin, rather than cyanocobalamin (your liver converts cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin). It's better b12 -- get on MedScape and pull up some literature on it.

(Frankly, if you drink fortified soymilk, even cyano-b12-fortified soymilk, then b12 really isn't something you need to be greying your hair over.)

[Athena]

Originally Posted by The David

I recently wrote a research paper on strict vegetarianism. The research seemed to indicate that veganism was adequate, and even ideal. However, the only source of B12 that I heard of was an oral supplement. Is it possible to be vegan and get B12 naturally?

How is veganism ideal if it doesn't naturally provide an essential nutrient?

Same with iron-- isn't the iron from animal sources superior to that from plant sources?


(I have no bias for meat or vegan, simply exploring it myself too)

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Athena

How is veganism ideal if it doesn't naturally provide an essential nutrient?

Possibly it was previously an ideal diet, back before we went all racoon on our food and started washing it. B12 used to be found in top soil, so: Eat dirt = get your b12.

But I think you're getting into an arguement of semantics: what is "ideal"?
Do you mean "natural" or "naturally-evolved" or "existing by virture of Darwinian evolution"?
Or do you mean "ideal" as in "the best for a human"?

Originally Posted by Athena

Same with iron-- isn't the iron from animal sources superior to that from plant sources?

Animal-sourced iron is partly heme iron, which is easier to absorb. Plant-sourced iron has no heme iron (all non-heme iron). However, plant-based diets are higher in vit. C, which increases absorption of non-heme iron.

It's comparable to meat-sourced iron in a well-balanced veggie/vegan diet.

---
NOTE: I'm not advocating "ideal" anything here; I'm just positing some logical conjecture for stewing. Flame on.

[joey m]

How is veganism ideal if it doesn't naturally provide an essential nutrient?

Same with iron-- isn't the iron from animal sources superior to that from plant sources?


(I have no bias for meat or vegan, simply exploring it myself too)

Athena: You raise good points here, and I'd like to maybe help fill in some gaps here.

First, veganism as it stands today, does not provide a reliable source of B-12 unless it is supplemented in the diet. So on the surface, I can see why this might be an achilles heel in the vegan diet.

But, we would have to find a diet then that provides ample B-12. Meat has not been found to be a reliable source of B-12, at least according to extensive studies done by the USDA. The B-12 is too tightly bound within the protein to be adequately absorbed by our intestinal tracts. Even if meat were a good source, it is no longer a natural source of B-12. Unfortunately because of modern feeding practices of cattle, they no longer receive adequate B-12 in their diet and so they have to receive B-12 supplements (in other words, you are getting a supplement of B-12 second hand by eating meat).

Please refer to:

Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Feb;71(2):514-22.

http://www.ars.usda.gov/...2000/000802.htm

So, if meat is not a bioavailable source of B-12, then what is? Well, according to the USDA only fortified foods (e.g. foods that are fortified with "supplemental" b-12) and dairy are reliable sources of B-12, other than actual supplements.

The question is, how much dairy to we have to consume then to get the adequate levels of B-12 in our diet. Well, you have to consume roughly 6 to 7 eight ounce glasses of milk a day. Since this is the only reliable source of B-12 in food, would it be ideal to include this much into our diets?

Well, unfortunately dairy is the single most polluted food in our diets. It often has levels of dioxin and other petrochemicals that are far in excess of limits set by the EPA. It is also a food that promotes anemia by not only have low levels of iron, but also has elements which prevent proper absorption of iron. It is a very low nutrient dense food, and is very high in preformed Vitamin A which is not a healthful nutrient according to studies. On top of that, high consumption of dairy leads to excessive levels of Insulin-like Growth Hormone 1 in humans, and high levels of this hormone have been linked with various cancers, including but not limited to breast, prostate and colon cancers. I could go on, but I guess you get the idea here. Again, too, the B-12 from the cow's is not native to their diets any more, so they are getting it supplemented in.

Yet, despite the high levels of consumption of foods high in B-12 in this country, it has been estimated by Harvard School of Public Health that B-12 is the most common nutrient deficiency in the US.

So, I guess it comes down to the fact that we are not getting sufficient B-12 from our diets, and even if we could, the food sources that would give us sufficient B-12 our too polluted and unhealthful to eat in the required quantities to be considered ideal.

In other words, in today's industrialized world where we wash fruits and veggies excessively (we used to get B-12 from the soil remnants on our produce), we are really best off taking a supplement for B-12. B-12 has found to be non-toxic in extremely high doses, so there is really no downside here (it is also relatively cheap).

Iron

Heme iron is indeed rich in meat, I do not believe this to be a particularly healthy component of beef. First, anemia is not generally a disease caused by lack of iron intake, it is more a disease of excessive blood loss (often through menstruation)(Br J Nutr. 2005 Oct;94(4):557-64.). The higher bleeding patterns are associated with higher hormone levels (J Reprod Med. 1999 Feb;44(2 Suppl):158-64.) Higher hormone levels are associated with lower intake of fiber, and higher intake of animal foods and fats.

So, unfortunately, while meat is a good source of dietary iron, it is also part of the cause of the anemia in the first place. Further, the ready absorption of heme iron is not necessarily a good thing anyway. Excess iron is stored in body tissues and is associated with later heart disease and brain degeneration. Excess iron is also an oxidant.

Because heme iron is so readily absorbed, the body takes it on whether it needs the extra iron or not. While nonheme iron is not as well absorbed, this is generally good because the sources of non-heme iron are loaded in fiber which is good for reducing hormone levels. When the body needs iron, non-heme iron is absorbed more readily, and if iron stores are good it is absorbed less readily (Again, a good thing since excess iron is bad).

Hope this is informative and/or helpful!

Joey

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by joey m

So, I guess it comes down to the fact that we are not getting sufficient B-12 from our diets, and even if we could, the food sources that would give us sufficient B-12 our too polluted and unhealthful to eat in the required quantities to be considered ideal.

In other words, in today's industrialized world where we wash fruits and veggies excessively (we used to get B-12 from the soil remnants on our produce), we are really best off taking a supplement for B-12. B-12 has found to be non-toxic in extremely high doses, so there is really no downside here (it is also relatively cheap).

Thanks for the info, Joey! Interestingly enough, I remember when this topic came up on Steve's blog that Erin said she doesn't even pay attention to B-12. The amount needed fits in a thimble, so we don't need much. If Erin is reading this, are you saying that the food you eat does have B-12 enriched soil still on it, or do you periodically take a supplement? As someone who is just starting out with a vegan diet, I find that B-12 is the only thing I need to worry about, and I guess I am confused about how worried I should be since no one seems to get enough B-12 anyway.

[Keith]

Originally Posted by gberardi

Thanks for the info, Joey! Interestingly enough, I remember when this topic came up on Steve's blog that Erin said she doesn't even pay attention to B-12. The amount needed fits in a thimble, so we don't need much. If Erin is reading this, are you saying that the food you eat does have B-12 enriched soil still on it, or do you periodically take a supplement? As someone who is just starting out with a vegan diet, I find that B-12 is the only thing I need to worry about, and I guess I am confused about how worried I should be since no one seems to get enough B-12 anyway.

The thing about B12 is that your body can store it for years (though there are still negative effects from not getting your thimbleful regularly). This means that you can skip B12 for years with no ill effects ; but then you get smacked down hard (Wikipedia: "Neurological signs of B12 deficiency, which can occur without accompanying hematologic abnormalities, include demyelination and irreversible nerve cell death").

BTW, the study that showed you could get B12 from soil was specific to a particular geographical area, so there's no guarantee that there's as much (or any!) B12 in soils from other areas.

Short version: take your B12!

Some soy milks are enriched with B12. However, note that a cup of enriched soy milk contains only 1/4-1/2 of your daily B12 needs so you need a litre (~2 pints) or more a day if you want to go that route.

[Athena]

Wow, thanks Joey and Lotus, great information there.

Lotus, by 'ideal', I mean all of those things. By evolution, and by what is optimal for us now.

One of my staples is a vegan meal replacement called The Ultimate Meal, which has 15 mcg of B12 per serving, I assume comes from the spirulina in it. I usually have 2 servings per meal, or about 30 to 60 mcg of this B12 per day. Reading about spirulina B12 bioavailability looks inconclusive, but I assume that since the RDA is only a few mcg, if ingesting 30 times that amount, even in spirulina, there should be enough metabolized to cover the daily B12 requirement.


Otherwise, thanks for the information!

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Athena

Lotus, by 'ideal', I mean all of those things. By evolution, and by what is optimal for us now.

I want to untangle that, because "evolved" doesn't always mean "ideal."
Sucks, doesn't it?

Evolution selects for reproductive fitness. Period. It doesn't directly select for longevity or necessarily long-term good health or old age, although these things might come about if they increased the reproductive fitness of subsequent generations (and there is some speculation that this is how menopause developed: mothers and grandmothers help the next generations to raise the children without worrying about supporting children of their own; topic is mired in controversy).

You can actually have a somewhat cruddy diet and make it to reproductive age, spawn some carpet-maggots, raise them to reproductive age, and die... and your genotype and phenotype survive to replicate. The diet that evolves in conjunction with this scenerio doesn't have to be "ideal". It just needs to get you to an age where you can raise a child to reproductive age.

BUT, if you ate a different diet (perhaps a vegan diet? perhaps a fruitarian diet? perhaps a donut diet?) you personally would have a longer or better life, even though it's not the "naturally evolved" diet. So which diet is "ideal"?

Now, before everybody jumps on me, I'd like to brandish a minor in Anthropology (focus on biological/physical -- basically bones, genetics, and monkeys).

[Athena]

who's gonna be the most beautiful, the one who all the girls wanna jump on? probably the most fit, healthiest looking male with the best genes and diet.


so biological and evolutionary ideals can go together.

[child]

That was great info Joey and Lotus, thanks.

I need a clarification about methylcobalamin/cyanocobalamin issue, anyone knows a link about it or more information?

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Athena

who's gonna be the most beautiful, the one who all the girls wanna jump on? probably the most fit, healthiest looking male with the best genes and diet.
so biological and evolutionary ideals can go together.

They can, but my point was that they don't have to. This is one of the hardest (or most counter-intuitive) fundementals of evolution for a lot of people to grasp.

People are constantly asking, "how come evolution didn't select against stuff like heart disease and high b/p in later life? I thought evolution selected for the 'fittest'?" This is because evolution is a function of reproductive fitness and not one of "perfect specimen" with long, healthy life.

I'm talking about evolution in a geographical area* where everyone is subjected to the bad diet. All members of the group have a bad diet, get to reproductive age, spawn some babbies, raise 'em, and die. The effects of the bad diet may not be immediately noticable in reproductive-age individuals. The bad diet may only manifest as a problem to post-reproductive individuals, shortening individual life-span without harming the reproductive fitness of the group.

*The geographical area can be defined as an island, a region, a continent, or a planet. It doesn't matter, because evolution isn't a function of morality, and morality isn't a function of evolution.

One of the troubles here is that people tangle up the concept of morality with the functions of "nature." The common belief in this line of thought is "if it evolved naturally, then it must be morally right." But this is an arguement for another thread.
See our favorite site's summation of the Naturalist fallacy and Appeal to Nature.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by child

That was great info Joey and Lotus, thanks.

I need a clarification about methylcobalamin/cyanocobalamin issue, anyone knows a link about it or more information?

VeganHealth.org

Keeping in mind that most veggies/vegans do just fine with cyanocobalamin; it the worriers that go for methylcobalamin.

[Athena]

wow Lotus, that's an interesting concept. So we're talking about two different levels then, a survival/reproductive level versus ideal level.. though the ideal level would umbrella all. Also, perhaps in few more thousand years, when animal survival is no longer an issue, then the 'perfect specimen' ideal will come into play.

thanks for elaborating on that.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Athena

wow Lotus, that's an interesting concept. So we're talking about two different levels then, a survival/reproductive level versus ideal level.. though the ideal level would umbrella all. Also, perhaps in few more thousand years, when animal survival is no longer an issue, then the 'perfect specimen' ideal will come into play.

thanks for elaborating on that.

My pleasure, Athena.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

It used to be possible to be vegan and get B12 naturally. But top soil erosion has made that difficult. B12 was found in top soil and as you probably know, our top soil is losing ground (no pun intended).

Today most vegans rely on supplemental B12. The amount needed in an entire year would fill a thimble, so we're talking micrograms, not even grams.

I also think, Erin, that many of the veges people buy today are squeekly clean, processed and wrapped in some type of synthetic material.

I grow spuds and carrots, turnips and onions, and thers nothing better than pulling a fresh bit of organic vege, you have grown, out of the ground, give it a quick brush down and ..whoosh: away it goes, down the hatch.

I think super hygiene in many areas off our lives isnt doing our immune systems any favours, either.

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by Stephen

nothing better than pulling a fresh bit of organic vege, you have grown, out of the ground, give it a quick brush down and ..whoosh: away it goes, down the hatch.

Is that really how it was back when it was easy to get B12? People just pulled it out of the ground and ate it after a quick brushing? Maybe it is just because I grew up conditioned to want to wash my fruits and vegetables before eating, but it seems less healthy.