Vegan sources of vitamin B12

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by gberardi

Is that really how it was back when it was easy to get B12? People just pulled it out of the ground and ate it after a quick brushing? Maybe it is just because I grew up conditioned to want to wash my fruits and vegetables before eating, but it seems less healthy.

Call me an old cynic, but I think we are conned into super-hygiene

I mean, how are our kids immune systems going to develop into strong fighting machines when they are forever shielded from bacteria?

It just doesnt make sense. If we are sensible about hygiene we dont need to live in a sterile world.

[Lotus]

Originally Posted by Stephen

I grow spuds and carrots, turnips and onions, and thers nothing better than pulling a fresh bit of organic vege, you have grown, out of the ground, give it a quick brush down and ..whoosh: away it goes, down the hatch.

I think super hygiene in many areas off our lives isnt doing our immune systems any favours, either.

I do this too; I've been accused of suffering from pica, even though I'm aiming for the carrot, not the dirt on it.
My sister's an RN, and she insists that we all let her daughter play in the dirt, eat it or no.

Ever read about Jordan Rubin? This was of interest to me because I had untreatable ulcerative colitis from age 8 to age 21 (when Mayo Clinic so kindly chopped my gut out and fashioned an ileoanal anastomosis for me). My mom jumped on the HSO wagon when I was a (very sick) teenager and thought I better start taking probiotics, but it didn't do anything spectacular for me.

On another dirty note...
...I think the b12 soil studies were done in India. Anyone want to go link hunting for that?... I'm kinda busy, at the moment. If nobody's done it by tomorrow, I'll do it.

[mviara]

I see that Centrum has 100% B12. How healthy is it to take Centrum everyday? Is it vegan? Any known problems with it? I somehow feel I shouldn't "have to" take a pill once a day - makes me feel my diet is deficient, and that this pill may not be the best way to remedy that.

Edit: I hadn't looked at this post on Multivitamin which answers my question.

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by mviara

I see that Centrum has 100% B12. How healthy is it to take Centrum everyday? Is it vegan? Any known problems with it? I somehow feel I shouldn't "have to" take a pill once a day - makes me feel my diet is deficient, and that this pill may not be the best way to remedy that.

I believe that 'Red Star Nutritional Yeast' has a naturally occuring B12 source in it.

Because your body needs B12 doesnt mean ther is a design flaw in your body. What it means that civilisation has moved on and we need to move on with it.

[joey m]

Stephen:

Red Star yeast fortifies their yeast (vegetarian support formula) with b-12. It is not naturally occuring.

Joey

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by joey m

Stephen:

Red Star yeast fortifies their yeast (vegetarian support formula) with b-12. It is not naturally occuring.

Joey

thanks Joey, I stand corrected. Have you a link for that info?

[joey m]

I just went on their the manufacturer's website (LeSaffre) but the section on manufacturing methods is under construction. But I can assure you this is right. I, personally, have emailed with the director of the yeast division. They add the b vitamins in after fermentation but before pastuerization. I'm sure there are many places on the web you can use to verify this information, but I wanted to have you read it directly from the company's website. Wait, I just found a decent link:

Nutritional Yeast Division - Lesaffre Yeast Corporation

You will see links in the middle of the page on the right -- click on the VEgetarian support formula. At the bottom you can see the ingredients in the Vegetarian support formula (includes many of the b vitamins including b-12). Without this supplementation, there is no b-12 in the nutritional yeast. You can see this by clicking on the link to NBC600 on the right of the screen I gave you. This has no supplemented B-12 in the ingredients, and 0% of B-12 in the product.

Hope this helps!

Joey

[Stephen]

Originally Posted by joey m

I just went on their the manufacturer's website (LeSaffre) but the section on manufacturing methods is under construction. But I can assure you this is right. I, personally, have emailed with the director of the yeast division. They add the b vitamins in after fermentation but before pastuerization. I'm sure there are many places on the web you can use to verify this information, but I wanted to have you read it directly from the company's website. Wait, I just found a decent link:

Nutritional Yeast Division - Lesaffre Yeast Corporation

You will see links in the middle of the page on the right -- click on the VEgetarian support formula. At the bottom you can see the ingredients in the Vegetarian support formula (includes many of the b vitamins including b-12). Without this supplementation, there is no b-12 in the nutritional yeast. You can see this by clicking on the link to NBC600 on the right of the screen I gave you. This has no supplemented B-12 in the ingredients, and 0% of B-12 in the product.

Hope this helps!

Joey

Thanks. I never use the stuff myself, I actually just take a supplement daily. I use engevita nutritional yeast. Just like cheese!

[Keith]

Originally Posted by gberardi

Is that really how it was back when it was easy to get B12? People just pulled it out of the ground and ate it after a quick brushing? Maybe it is just because I grew up conditioned to want to wash my fruits and vegetables before eating, but it seems less healthy.

Depends how you define 'healthy'.

Is it less hygenic? Yup.

Did being less hygenic make us build up our immune system so it wasn't a problem? Generally, yup.

Since it increased our innate ability to preserve health, could that be considered more healthy? Yup.

[gberardi]

So basically, until I make the time to grow my own vegetables and take care not to wash them too much, my only option to get a vital nutrient is a supplement or fortified (processed) foods like the cereal I used to eat?

[qborden]

A little later than the other replies, but I thought I would add my two cents.

For breakfast, I have a large bowl of Optimum Power breakfast cereal with a cup of strawberries, a half-cup of blueberries, and almond milk. It is quite tasty! Anyway, the Optimum Power cereal is fortified with 100% of the daily requirement for B12. Here is a link to the nutrition info for this cereal:

Optimum Power™

Quincy

[gberardi]

Originally Posted by qborden

A little later than the other replies, but I thought I would add my two cents.

For breakfast, I have a large bowl of Optimum Power breakfast cereal with a cup of strawberries, a half-cup of blueberries, and almond milk. It is quite tasty! Anyway, the Optimum Power cereal is fortified with 100% of the daily requirement for B12. Here is a link to the nutrition info for this cereal:

Until I gave up dairy, I was eating that cereal. I'm looking into making my own raw almond milk, and I should really look into getting strawberries and blueberries more often, though.

[qborden]

I tried making my own almond milk, but it seemed more expensive than buying it at Whole Foods, and it didn't taste as good as what I bought at Whole Foods...

[gberardi]

Just another article about the importance of getting enough B12 in your vegan diet: Vitamin B12

Of particular interest was the answer to the question "Is there a vegan alternative to B12-fortified foods and supplements?" Basically, be careful with supplements and foods that haven't been shown to prevent deficiency.

Claimed sources of B12 that have been shown through direct studies of vegans to be inadequate include human gut bacteria, spirulina, dried nori, barley grass and most other seaweeds. Several studies of raw food vegans have shown that raw food offers no special protection.

I know that someone suggested spirulina. It looks like I will be eating fortified cereal and supplements for now.

[mumbot]

Originally Posted by Athena

How is veganism ideal if it doesn't naturally provide an essential nutrient?

Same with iron-- isn't the iron from animal sources superior to that from plant sources?


(I have no bias for meat or vegan, simply exploring it myself too)

Well, I didn't see anyone else mention this, so I will - Lentils are the BEST source of iron - WAY more so than any animal flesh source or any other source!

Also, why is everyone ignoring the fact that there actually are still some naturally occuring, vegan, bacteria made B12 sources out there?? It is freaking me out.. someone here already mentioned KOMBUCHA and that contains TRUE B12 ..and about the topsoil source.. how hard is it to start growing a few of your own vegetables?? If you have some dirt or even a window... plant something and then eat it!

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by mumbot

Well, I didn't see anyone else mention this, so I will - Lentils are the BEST source of iron - WAY more so than any animal flesh source or any other source!

Also, why is everyone ignoring the fact that there actually are still some naturally occuring, vegan, bacteria made B12 sources out there?? It is freaking me out.. someone here already mentioned KOMBUCHA and that contains TRUE B12 ..and about the topsoil source.. how hard is it to start growing a few of your own vegetables?? If you have some dirt or even a window... plant something and then eat it!

I think the sources you mentioned are great natural 'extras', but are not a realistic primary source of B12.

For example with Kombucha, a standard bottle has 20% RDA, which means I would have to drink 5 bottles a day to get all my B12. Don't get me wrong, I love me some Kombucha, but that's a lot of fizzy liquid! On top of that, unless you've converted your entire garage to a massive brewery, you're dropping ~$15 dollars A DAY on kombucha. That's just not realistic.

As for growing your own veggies, well there's no guarantee that your topsoil is better than commercial topsoil, no guarantee that it has the desired B12-producing bacteria, and no guarantee that the veggie you pick and brush off will have a significant dose.

I'm not arguing against these methods - I drink a few bottles of Kombucha a week (soon will be brewing my own) and grow my own veggies as well. I also include spirulina in my smoothies and enjoy Nooch on occasion.

However, I think it's so important for vegans to joyfully and healthfully represent their lifestyle. Why not just take a supplement and live as an example of a beautiful, well-nourished and happy vegan? What better way to make a case for veganism?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by mumbot

Well, I didn't see anyone else mention this, so I will - Lentils are the BEST source of iron - WAY more so than any animal flesh source or any other source!

Really? That's interesting, because everything I've read, even information from pro-veg cites, acknowledge that non-heme sources of iron are not as good as heme sources like meat. For instance:

"There are two kinds of iron, heme and non-heme iron. In plant foods, iron exists in the less bioavailable non-heme form (2). Relative to heme iron, non-heme iron is far more sensitive to the enhancers and inhibitors of iron absorption, and also to physiological iron need (7, 8)."

"Bioavailability of non-heme iron and dietary zinc is greatly influenced by both dietary inhibitors and enhancers (7, 9). This may place certain segments of the vegetarian population at risk for iron and zinc deficiency."

From "Factors in Vegetarian Diets Influencing Iron and Zinc Bioavailability."

Here's something from the National Institutes of Health:

"Dietary Supplement Fact Sheet: Iron"

"Absorption of heme iron from meat proteins is efficient. Absorption of heme iron ranges from 15% to 35%, and is not significantly affected by diet [15]. In contrast, 2% to 20% of nonheme iron in plant foods such as rice, maize, black beans, soybeans and wheat is absorbed [16]. Nonheme iron absorption is significantly influenced by various food components [1,3,11-15]"

I found out something new from this fact sheet:

"Vitamin A helps mobilize iron from its storage sites, so a deficiency of vitamin A limits the body's ability to use stored iron. This results in an "apparent" iron deficiency because hemoglobin levels are low even though the body can maintain normal amounts of stored iron [39-40]."

This may explain why so many women that I know, veg and omni alike, have problems with low iron, since people are warned away from consuming true vitamin A sources of food like liver, and caratenoid sources like carrots are touted as "containing" vitamin A when they don't.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Athena

How is veganism ideal if it doesn't naturally provide an essential nutrient?

Originally Posted by bonzaiaphrodite

However, I think it's so important for vegans to joyfully and healthfully represent their lifestyle. Why not just take a supplement and live as an example of a beautiful, well-nourished and happy vegan? What better way to make a case for veganism?

I totally think that's fine, as long as people honestly acknowledge that the diet needs supplementation. On other groups I belong to, anti-supplement vegans won't admit that. They say that they're the picture of health, when they're not. I wish they'd just take a darned sublingual B-12 tablet and be done with it! LOL.

[bonzaiaphrodite]

Originally Posted by liamona

I totally think that's fine, as long as people honestly acknowledge that the diet needs supplementation. On other groups I belong to, anti-supplement vegans won't admit that. They say that they're the picture of health, when they're not. I wish they'd just take a darned sublingual B-12 tablet and be done with it! LOL.

Nobody is the picture of health, and everybody will need to supplement something. It's virtually impossible to intake all of the vitamins, minerals, and macronutrients that we need in a day from food alone - the caloric load that accompanies those nutrient quantities would simply be too inflated. What are the implications of that for the 'ideal'/'evolutionarily intended' diet?

I wish the *other side* (omni's) would admit THAT, quietly take their multivitamin tablets, and be done with it.

[bluedragon]

Isn't polen a great source of b12?
Besides, I though most is produced by intestinal bacteria, so if you don't eat things that are detrimental to the bacteria, you should have a healthier intestinal flora, as a vegan

[Lupe]

does Steve use B12 supplement?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by bonzaiaphrodite

Nobody is the picture of health, and everybody will need to supplement something. It's virtually impossible to intake all of the vitamins, minerals, and macronutrients that we need in a day from food alone - the caloric load that accompanies those nutrient quantities would simply be too inflated. What are the implications of that for the 'ideal'/'evolutionarily intended' diet?

ITA. And that is why I'm an OMNI—so that I can eat a wide range of available foods, because they aren't as nutrient-rich as they were in the past. I wouldn't limit my diet to just fruits and veggies, because I feel like I'd have to take a lot of supplements that are mostly available in animal products (like iron, zinc, B vitamins, vitamin A, long-chain omega 3 fatty acids, etc. etc.).

However, some of the vegans I know are hard-core, and cling to the belief that a whole-foods diet is all they need. Admirable, noble belief, but probably self-defeating.

"Health" advocates like John Robbins ought to be more honest about the limitations of the veg diet. I heard an interview with him, and on the one hand he'd say not eating meat is best, but on the other hand, say be sure to keep your homocysteine levels low. Well, the best way to keep it low is to consume enough vitamins B6, B12, and folic acid—the ones that are most abundant in meat and organs! You can supplement with Bs, but why not get the majority from food? It would cut down on the stash you have to get at the health food store. And once again, I have to wonder what is the option for poor vegans? Is this a diet for rich people?

I wish the *other side* (omni's) would admit THAT, quietly take their multivitamin tablets, and be done with it.

Most reasonable people do take supplements! Thank goodness.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Isn't polen a great source of b12?

I don't think so. This veganhealth.org article is one of the best ones on supplementing B12, and which fortified foods contain it. Here's a snippet:

"B12 is generally found in all animal foods (except honey). The overwhelming consensus in the mainstream nutrition community, as well as among vegan health professionals, is that plant foods do not provide vitamin B12. (Luckily, vitamin B12 is made by bacterial fermentation such that it does not need to be obtained from animal products.) Despite this, some vegan advocates still believe that "plant foods provide all the nutrients necessary for optimal health" and, therefore, do not address vitamin B12 when promoting the vegan diet. Other vegan advocates acknowledge the need for B12, but only as an afterthought."

[joylangtry]

Here is a source not mentioned above - suggested by Robert Cohen of notmilk.com fame:

If You Do Not Take Vitamin B-12 Supplements - - -

From the article:

Vegan blood contains some B-12. In that, there is no debate.
Vegan semen and vaginal secretions contain many times more
Vitamin B-12 than does human blood.

The solution? Make love. Enjoy oral sex as the Bible
suggests in the Song of Solomon. The ingestion of
sexual body secretions from your significant other will
insure good health for you through a Biblically-endorsed
version of vegan nutrition.

[ginkgo]

They have found that vitamin B-12 has different analogues and not all of them work. Also a group of vegans tried to get it from plant sources but tests showed that they did not get enough. B-12 supplements are different than other vitamin supplements since they are grown.

It is the cheapest supplement since you need so little. Some people buy 500 mg tablets of vitamin C and take it every day. 500 mg of vitamin B-12 is enough to last you 100 years!

The RDA of vitamin C is 60 milligrams. The RDA of vitamin B-12 is 6 one-thousands of a milligram. Or 6/1000 milligrams. Or in other words 6 micrograms. It is so little, you might as well take a supplement of it. There used to be more B-12 in foods when the foods were not so clean.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by joylangtry

Here is a source not mentioned above - suggested by Dr Robert Cohen of notmilk.com fame:

While I'm all for oral and regular sex, I'd be extremely hesitant to take anything else the NotMilk Man promotes seriously. Vegsource.com has had articles warning against his site for years:

"Beware of Robert Cohen aka the NotMilk Man"
VegSource Article

At the bottom, there's links to eight other articles about him, some from other vegan sites.

[joylangtry]

Originally Posted by liamona

While I'm all for oral and regular sex, I'd be extremely hesitant to take anything else the NotMilk Man promotes seriously. Vegsource.com has had articles warning against his site for years:

"Beware of Robert Cohen aka the NotMilk Man"
VegSource Article

At the bottom, there's links to eight other articles about him, some from other vegan sites.

liamona, thanks for that link. It's new to me, and I appreciate the info.

Ultimately, each of us must decide what resonates for ourselves, and there have been a number of his messages that inspired/motivated me, outweighing so far the number that seem over the top.

And I really did like the ideas in that article.

_____________________

Edited to add: I just spent a couple hours reading the info on the link provided by liamona, and I am persuaded, yet disappointed by the info contained. Oh, well. It always surprises me when someone who is ostensibly working to enlighten people with "truth" turns out to be less than honorable. But at least Vegsource.com is a new site to me, and again I am thankful for that.

As Emily Latella so eloquently said, "Nevermind!"

[Lupe]

Originally Posted by Lupe

does Steve use B12 supplement?

does he?

[funchy]

Originally Posted by The David

I recently wrote a research paper on strict vegetarianism. The research seemed to indicate that veganism was adequate, and even ideal. However, the only source of B12 that I heard of was an oral supplement. Is it possible to be vegan and get B12 naturally?

Understand that the b12 in animals is not FROM the animal but rather from the bacteria in the animal's environment or gut. We don't have the right gut, and we overwash all our food so it can't come from our environment.

The reality is that the NON-vegan diets are also are coming up deficient in things like b12, vit d, or sometimes iron or zinc.

Commonly meats are also very low in b12. For example, chicken seems to be the most popular meat among my meat-eating friends. A half-chicken breast only gives you 6% of your RDA of Vitamin B12, so if you're a meat-eater you'd better be ready to eat SEVENTEEN chicken breasts every day(!)

There is also some controversy on how much b12 may get lost in the cooking process. And others debate about how nutrient deficient modern processed factory-farm steroid-enhanced meat is compared to what used to pass for meat.

Bottom line: looks like everyone would benefit from a good multi-vitamin, whether you're vegan or not. Neither diet is "adequate" if you aspire to meet the government RDA for B12 and all other vitamins/minerals.

[liamona]

The writer of the Free Radical blog wrote an interesting post about this. He includes high-quality ghee in his mostly plant-based diet:

Is it true that plant foods do not contain Vitamin B12? | Free Radical