Most Vegetarians Are Unhealthy - Importance Of Dietary Protein.

[Conan Stevens]

From an article on my website:

Vegetarianism and Protein Deficiencies

Take for example a young lady I was friends with in Australia. She became vegetarian. Now she was cool. She only ate vegetarian things like potato chips (french fries for the Americans) and vegetarian pizza, yeah she was so cool and healthy now....

.... so healthy that she doubled in size in about 4 weeks. From a beautiful slim girl to a overweight, pasty, pimpled thing. All in the space of about 1 month - I could not believe it. In fact our friendship stopped soon after, I could not believe she thought she was doing the right thing when her body was falling apart before her eyes.

Most vegetarians I meet (maybe just the vocal ones) are doing it because it is 'trendy' in their circles or they had some emotional guilt towards livestock. They do not generally do much study and then eat a ton of bad foods, in bad quantities and in bad mixes. Since they do not eat much protein then it means that they often eat more fats and sugars to satisfy their hunger cravings.... ingesting fat+sugar = you'll become a fat lump.

Proteins are also necessary for your bodies survival. There are a bunch of protein molecules that your body needs to ingest. These are called essential amino acids in fact 9 of the 20 amino acids your body needs have to be ingested.

From the Northwestern University Website:

Protein from animal sources (meat, fish, dairy products, egg white) is considered high biological value protein or a "complete" protein because all nine essential amino acids are present in these proteins. An exception to this rule is collagen-derived gelatin which is lacking in tryptophan.

Plant sources of protein (grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds) generally do not contain sufficient amounts of one or more of the essential amino acids. Thus protein synthesis can occur only to the extent that the limiting amino acids are available. These proteins are considered to have intermediate biological value or to be partially complete because, although consumed alone they do not meet the requirements for essential amino acids, they can be combined to provide amounts and proportions of essential amino acids equivalent to high biological proteins from animal sources.

Plants that are entirely lacking in essential amino acids are considered incomplete proteins or sources of low biological value protein. These sources include most fruits and vegetables. A low biological value means that it is difficult or impossible to compensate for insufficient amounts of essential amino acids by combining different sources as with partially complete proteins.

Now comes the fun part. If you have an essential amino acid deficiency your body your body needs to get the essentials aminos from somewhere - your body begins to cannabilise itself. This leads to a condition known as Protein-Energy Malnutrition (PEM)

PEM has the following clinical features: weight loss, diarrhea, loss of lean body mass, muscle weakness, depigmented hair and skin, pressure sores, and depressed immune function.

WOW! Healthy now aren't we?

Protein is a needed part of your diet, not just any protein - a correctly balanced complete protein. Meat eater do not need to worry about this, just near starving people in underdeveloped countries surviving on grains and vegetarians.

Anyone who states that protein is bad or that we do not need it had better get out and do some reading before they become like those sickly hippie types I used to see at Uni, all being vegetarians because it was cool - all sickly pasty and energy less

[escapee]

Besides high quality protein, a strict vegetarian diet may also at risk of

1)Zinc and iron deficiency

2) Vitamin D, A(conditional) and B12 deficiency

3) Over consumption of caborhydrate (like your friend;s case) which would lead to obesity -> X-syndrome and eventually diabetes, heart problem and cancer.

4) DHA (omega 3 fatty acid) defiency

I believe The risk of deficiency can be significantly minimized by going Lacto-ovo ( organic egg and dairy product) or adding deep sea fish in the meal plan.

Based on my personal disastrous experience on 3 months vegan diet, i would encourage all aspiring vegans to consider cheating on range fed animal food now at least a few times a week.

The above is just my personal opinion ..

[escapee]

I think the message is pretty clear ..

Carbohydrate is the main killer in the average Western diet, not fat. Eskimos and other aboriginal people with very high fat levels in their diet do not suffer degenerative artery disease in the way we do in the civilized world. However misinformation and ignorance abounds. Whatever science you read extolling the supposed benefits of carbohydrates, this will always refer to complex carbohydrates (meaning whole grains, fruits and vegetables (added by myself) ). This also overlooks the fact that many people are intolerant to grains. Despite all the propaganda, even whole grains are not “natural” foods at all. Man evolved as a hunter gatherer and grains have only been in our diet for the last 10,000 years or so. Many people cannot digest grains but get unpleasant reactions.

Ironically, refined carbohydrates are better tolerated than whole grains by these individuals. But make no mistake, white flour, white sugar, corn syrup, white potato and other starch-rich foods are bad for you and will shorten your life. Yet these are the ingredients commonly used by the food manufacturing industry: bread, cakes, biscuits, pasta, pastries and other confectionary items, french fries, food thickeners, coffee whiteners, white rice and skimmed milk (milk with the fat reduced has proportionately more sugar!) - these are all stressful to your metabolism. Sooner or later the control mechanism which regulates the flood of such carbohydrates into your body will break down and serious, life-threatening consequences will result.

The four main resulting dangers are:
• Obesity
• Insulin resistance or hyperinsulinism
• Syndrome X
• Diabetes

[Dimitry]

Conan...I still eat meat myself (though I limit what I eat and I go on fasts every so often).

I see a big weakness in your argument and I would go as far as saying that it's a strawman argument. You paint a picture of a meat eater gone vegeterian and apply it to all vegeterians. That's a big fallacy right there. Here are the two flaws that I see with your points.

Point 1 - all vegeterians start eating things like french fries and pizza.

How about the ones that don't eat junk and went vegeterian to eat healthy. They intake more fruits and vegetables, eat more whole grains, drink more water and tea and avoid things like crabonated bevearages, too much sugar/salt etc? Steve's a vegan (very similar to a vegeterians so I will put him in this argument), does Steve only eat french fries and pizza? I would think that those are on the bottom of the totem pole of good foods for Steve on a daily basis.


Point 2 - all vegeterians do it because it's trendy and for some animals.

What about the ones that do it for health reasons? For example, let's say I feel that if I eat a lot of varied fruits and veggies, nuts and whatever the best vegeterian diet is, I will be more healthy. That I don't need animal protein and fat. Why should I be lumped into that grouped and used as an argument that all types of vegeterian diets are bad for you.

Just because your friend did it for a certain reason and chose to eat certain foods shows the lack of research and right motivational reasons for her to pursue such a lifestyle change. It actually shows that your friend is dealing with much more than worries about her diet in her life (don't want to segway with this argument though, just wanted to point that out).

The biggest flaw I saw in your argument is your started the argument for eating meat with the same style that you argue against, persuation by force. My friend did this, my friend turned fat, fat is not cool (emforced by you not being friends with her anymore). If you want to be cool, don't be a vegeterian.

Anyways, I think that it is a good idea to provide a balanced picture for and against the argument for people contemplating the switch, especially since there is no concrete answer on the subject matter yet. But make sure to provide good evidence, like you did in the second part of your argument, instead of using flawed logic like the first.

[escapee]

I think Conan was just overly frustrated with his experience. BTW, i have also personally met quite a few obese vegetarians who consume too much of refined carbohydrate and soy products. I think his post should serve as a good warning to the aspiring strict vegans/vegetarians that they could get into alot more troubles (Deficiency issue + metabolic disorders) than the omnivores by consuming too much of non-whole food/carbohydrate (vegan bread, vegan cookie, vegan biscuit, vegan baked pizza, non-fermented processed/GMO soy and etc).

I see that Steve as a role model of vegetarianism because i believe he is eating a wide variety of predominantly whole food diet, doing plenty of exercise under sun(hopefully) and etc.

[dor]

Originally Posted by escapee

Besides high quality protein, a strict vegetarian diet may also at risk of

1)Zinc and iron deficiency

2) Vitamin D, A(conditional) and B12 deficiency

3) Over consumption of caborhydrate (like your friend;s case) which would lead to obesity -> X-syndrome and eventually diabetes, heart problem and cancer.

4) DHA (omega 3 fatty acid) defiency

I believe The risk of deficiency can be significantly minimized by going Lacto-ovo ( organic egg and dairy product) or adding deep sea fish in the meal plan.

Based on my personal disastrous experience on 3 months vegan diet, i would encourage all aspiring vegans to consider cheating on range fed animal food now at least a few times a week.

The above is just my personal opinion ..

I think it's just common sense - if you have to go out of your way to maintain a healthy diet while being a vegitarian - by taking this or that supplement, and its easier to get all the nutrients you need by including, say, grass fed beef and fish and eggs...then why do something that goes against what your body was designed to do?

[radeldudel]

well, you can eat unhealthy as vegetarian, you can eat unhealthy as meat eater, and even as vegan you can eat unhealthy food.

It does not matter if you eat meat or not, it does matter if you eat food that is good for you, or food that is bad for you. It is important to listen to your body, to feel if what you eat is good for you.

Problem is, most people do not listen to their body to see if their food done them good, they listen to mass media telling them 'eat this, its good for you', or they listen to other people. But people are not the same, something that is good for me need not to be good and healthy for you.

We need to re-learn to feel into ourself, to feel if we harm ourself, or if we do ourself something good. Learn to listen to our body system, since all the information is inside us, we just need to tap into it, use it.

Any 'I got the ultimate truth about what food is good for you' must be wrong since we all are different, and our needs change frequently in our lives.

Love you,
Sam

[da1prophet]

100% incorrect, and a complete mischaracterization of why and how most meat eaters go vegetarian. I'm a vegetarian, as are many of my friends, and I do it for health reasons not because I'm a trendy save the animals type. I'm in the best shape of my life, and my closest vegetarian friends are training to be pro boxers and/or MMA fighters and are also in top notch shape. As one of the other posters noted, you can eat unhealhty as a vegetarian, or as a meat eater. If you know what you're putting into your body and what your body needs to be healthy there's no inherent health risk of being a vegetarian. To the contrary, any deficiency of certain things can be easily corrected and the health upsides for me and most of the people I know definitely outweigh any minor downsides.

Vegetarianism isn't for everyone, but its also a stretch to impugn an entire dietary methodology that works well for a lot of people just because it didn't work for you...

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Conan Stevens

[INDENT]
Protein from animal sources (meat, fish, dairy products, egg white) is considered high biological value protein or a "complete" protein because all nine essential amino acids are present in these proteins. An exception to this rule is collagen-derived gelatin which is lacking in tryptophan.

Plant sources of protein (grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds) generally do not contain sufficient amounts of one or more of the essential amino acids. Thus protein synthesis can occur only to the extent that the limiting amino acids are available. These proteins are considered to have intermediate biological value or to be partially complete because, although consumed alone they do not meet the requirements for essential amino acids, they can be combined to provide amounts and proportions of essential amino acids equivalent to high biological proteins from animal sources.

Do you see the remedy right in the quote?

...they can be combined to provide amounts and proportions of essential amino acids equivalent to high biological proteins from animal sources.

It's not the difficult to eat all the sources that when combined give the body
the essential amino acids. Sure some veggers ignore making sure they get the combo right - but must probably accedently get the combo. Like a peanut butter sandwich on whole wheat.

Apperently humus is a combined complete protein (chickpeas and sesame paste) and so is rice and beans.

[ferociousgoals]

I'm a little confused--did you just say, in your top post, that becoming a vegetarian leads people to become problematically fat AND thin?

Protein comes from many, many sources, and to say that eating meat is automatically eating healthier ignores the vast majority of obese and unhealthy people in my country (US), most of whom eat large amounts of animal products. If we are using personal examples as proof of theories, I would like to point out that all of my family is overweight, and all of them eat meat. My friend went vegetarian and has lost 30 lbs in 6 months without dieting, and has more energy than she ever has.

Personally, I believe you can't pin the health of a diet on any SINGLE factor--like meat, or eggs, or soy, or fruit--but must consider the whole (including sources of food, amounts, etc) to get an accurate picture for each individual. But that's much less exciting and fewer people will read and respond to it, hence the constant articles about single wonder foods/single nutrients. I also do not understand why non-vegs are so driven to show why veggies are DOOMED to unhealth. If it's working for me, and I'm healthy and feel great, why spend so much time trying to prove me wrong? It seems negative and power-driven.

Anyway! That was long! Good health to all, no matter what your chosen diet.

[jennygoldenator]

I recently quit a job where I was working closely with a man who is the most negative realist ever to walk this Earth. I mentioned a few months ago that I was cutting pork and red meat out of my diet. He looked at me incredulously and accused me of doing it because so-and-so celebrity was doing it. WHich is no argument, Ghandi was a vegetarian who only ate eggs. Why would anyone try to give me a hard time for emulating Ghandi? Which is NOT what I was doing, but I was so astonished that the obese, negative, 2 chilli dogs for lunch guy was giving ME a hard time by incorporating something healthy into my life. And I am still eating eggs, chicken and fish BTW, but he just ignored that and told me I was a trendy "tool". I never said I was doing it to save the animals. But what if I was? What is this? Highschool? Since when does trendy even matter after 12th grade? I don't care what trendy thing any of you are doing, as long as you are happy. Eat meat. Don't eat meat. You will not be judged by me. Conan: before you get up on your negative judgemental soapbox about vegetarians, I want to know what is in your pantry bro: Oreos? chips? Hhhmm aren't we healthy? Even if you managed to construct the world's most healthy diet for your self, I doubt you have everything figured out. So, a word to the wise: judge not, lest you be judged. BTW, at 5'9 and 121 lbs, I have not filled my diet with a bunch of crap since cutting out red meat and pork. Not that it should really matter to you. Carnivores and Vegetarians, UNITE!!!!

[escapee]

Protein comes from many, many sources, and to say that eating meat is automatically eating healthier ignores the vast majority of obese and unhealthy people in my country (US), most of whom eat large amounts of animal products. If we are using personal examples as proof of theories, I would like to point out that all of my family is overweight, and all of them eat meat. My friend went vegetarian and has lost 30 lbs in 6 months without dieting, and has more energy than she ever has.

Animal products may not be the main cause of the issue, it's the over-consumption of carbohydrate/sugar, lack of physical exercise and the use of damaged veg oil/trans fat that cause the epidemic of obesity and its related diseases worldwide. I believe the faster people realize this the better it is so that there is no more excuse to consume food like Mighty O - organic, dairy-free, donuts.

Your family may be over consuming too much of carbohydrate in the form of french fries,patotoe, pasta, bread, sugar, pizza, white flour,sweet and etc. In fact, A ketogenic diet (pure meat) is probably one of the most effective/aggressive weight loss diets in the world though it has its many downsides ( feeling lethagy, risk of kidney stone and etc ) and many dieters ended up gaining back the weight once they started eating carbohydrate again to combat the lethagic problem.

[m0vingon]

So, are we to assume that the meat eaters of the world are not suffering from vitamin and mineral deficiencies? Not likely.
Personally, since going vegetarian, I eat much healthier than I did in 34 years of being a carnivore. One is forced to make food choices on a larger scale, try new things, and be mindful of the nutritional content of the daily diet to be a successful, healthy vegetarian. I eat far fewer processed foods and certainly, once you go meatless you NEVER have the urge to hit the Burger King drive through again!

[Narz]

Too much carbs or fat can be an issue.

Eskimos are hardly role models if you want to be slim and trim.

Obviously if someone eats nothing but potato chips and vegan pizza they're gonna have health problems down the line. It's pretty easy to cover all your bases as a vegetarian.

[escapee]

eat far fewer processed foods

That's the key change that you have made. If you start adding the refind carb/junk food back to the diet. You would see your waistline expanding and your health going downhill faster than you could imagine.

you go meatless you NEVER have the urge to hit the Burger King drive through again!

I agree based on my experience. But it's not the best reason TO EXCLUDE all animal products (including organic egg, grain fed animal products and etc)

The problem with Eskimo is alcoholism .

[escapee]

It's pretty easy to cover all your bases as a vegetarian.

See if u are a vegetarian ( with egg consumption or dairy), i would say " yeah maybe " .

if you are a strict vegans and you're planning to raise your children with the same strict diet, I would be hesistate to say the same thing.

Good luck and stay healthy

[hindweb]

I am from India and the land of Hinduism. Many of us are strict vegetarians and I have never heard of any problems of this nature, but we are not vegans.

[shant121]

Please STOP publishing half baked stories and incorrect information. go and study science. properly.

You are depicting cases of people 'turning' vegetarian and eating junk food. like radeldudel said, you can eat unhealthy as vegetarian, you can eat unhealthy as meat eater, and even as vegan you can eat unhealthy food.

"just near starving people in underdeveloped countries surviving on grains and vegetarians". well the US gets some of its brightest and successful individuals from this group. just a FYI.

[escapee]

Many of us are strict vegetarians and I have never heard of any problems of this nature,

FYI

Vitamin B-12 deficiency is common among both vegetarian and nonvegetarian Asian Indians

Correction of Anemia and Iron Deficiency in Vegetarians by Administration of Ascorbic Acid

The incidence of iron deficiency anemia is much greater in India than western countries, despite the fact that daily iron intake of Indians is twice that of westerners (2, 3). This apparent paradox is attributed to consumption of predominantly cereal based diet, rich in phytate, oxalates, phosphates, fiber and other inhibitors of iron absorption, by the majority of Indians who practice vegetarianism on account of religion or poverty (4, 5).

Who says all health studies are worthless ? (just teasing no offense)

[Conan Stevens]

Shant121: "and even as vegan you can eat unhealthy food."

The point of my article is that if you are Vegan you are much more likely to be unhealthy. Seems like a lot of people, yourself included think that Vegan is healthy with no understanding of a correctly balanced diet.

Escapee: "if you are a strict vegans and you're planning to raise your children with the same strict diet, I would be hesistate to say the same thing."

Now I live in SE Asia I can see the effects of protein deficiency on children, it is especially prevalent in the generation that fled Pol Pot and his regime in Cambodia. The refugees had to start new lives with nothing, they had t osell what little meat they could catch for money to buy essentials and lived on a diet of rice and soy sauce often - as a result most of these people are lucky to be 5 feet tall, yet their children are much larger and it is common knowledge that this is due to the increased meat consumption. As a result I would rephrase your warning to be much stronger.

Narz: "It's pretty easy to cover all your bases as a vegetarian."

Actually it is pretty easy to have 20" biceps too - if you have the knowledge. Most people do not have the knowledge.

M0vingon: "you NEVER have the urge to hit the Burger King drive through again!"

I never have the urge to eat any junk foods - it is called will power and following my dream

jennygoldenator: "Conan: before you get up on your negative judgemental soapbox about vegetarians, I want to know what is in your pantry bro: Oreos? chips? Hhhmm aren't we healthy?"

How wrong you are. Yes I am healthy. I eat predominantly natural foods, unprocessed, or with slight processing. White rice is the worst thing I eat. Here let me prove it,



This is a photo from last week in the gym taken for a book on health, fitness and diet that I am writting. Do you think I eat Oreos?

Maybe I am somewhat qualified to talk about diet, fitness and health in general. It might also be relevant to add that I have competed at State level in 5 different sports and was a Pro-Athlete in Australia. I currently work as an Stunt Actor in Asia. My look and physique are my livlihood - I know all about it

ferociousgoals: "to become problematically fat AND thin"

Yes. It is possible to be thin and have a abnormally high body fat composition. My friends and I all them Fat Skinnies. They often think they are healthy because they are thin, but are amongst the most unhealthy group around (often seen in aspiring models) they suffer deficiencies that normal fat people do not have.

wolfgang

Yes but how many people know that they should combine their meals correctly at each eating session?

To everyone else - this is an exert from a full article (pop over and read it if you like). That one girl is not my entire experience with vegetarians, she was just a prime example that stuck out.

My point is that everyone who considers themselves "healthy" because they do not eat meat should think again - preferrably about thier education.

I myself have close experience with the Hari Krishnas (no meat, no eggs, no fish) and several friends who are professional Martial Artists who are vegetarian. The difference is they know what they are doing and take their health seriously (hence thier inclusion of exercise in their daily routine).

I do fast and I fast on fruit diets from time to time. I also eat a ton of natural carbs and little to no refined carbs. My system is clean of rotting animal meats as I eat on average 2 cups of uncooked oats a day + fruit and other good fibres to scrub my insides clean.

I am not saying meat eaters are healthy. Processed meats are some of the most harmful products around today (right up there with processed wheat and processed milk)

I hate processed foods, my diet is a natural food diet.

I have studied foods more indepth than nearly every dietician I have ever met and I have experimented on myself (the 100% meat diet definitely gave bad results) for over 20 years - why? Because my future success depends on me getting it right.

I want to be the World's Biggest Action Movie Star so I had better look like it.

[jennygoldenator]

Conan: I am surprised that you missed my point, which was: I was using oreos and chips as an example. Maybe you don't eat oreos and chips , BUT there is a good chance that soemwhere in your life, you are not perfect, and have no reason to be judging others. For instance your white rice. (I love white rice, personally) but from what I have heard, white rice is like eating glue, and has very little nutrition. Will I be judging you for that? No. I don't need to see pictures of you to know that you are not perfect.

[ferociousgoals]

jenny, after his last post, I don't think arguing is of any value here, since he only chose miniscule pieces of everyone's posts to reply to.

I'm still wondering, Conan, why is it so important for you to be so much more right, and knowledgeable, than everyone else here? Why are you bothered if I am successful and conscientious about my vegetarian diet? Why are you so (nearly aggressively) driven to prove me wrong? What does that make you feel?

When it comes down to it, you didn't title this thread "most people are unhealthy," you titled it at vegetarians. You are now acknowledging that most meat-eaters are unhealthy as well. What is so threatening about vegetarians that there must be constant threads going after them and telling them the horrific things that will surely happen to them (even if they haven't happened to most of the people here) and asserting that they aren't smart enough to take care of their own dietary and nutritional needs?

[dor]

Originally Posted by hindweb

I am from India and the land of Hinduism. Many of us are strict vegetarians and I have never heard of any problems of this nature, but we are not vegans.

you're still likely to use ghee (buttter?) dairy like lassi and eggs in your diet, no?

anway.
I simply eat 'real food' - and I found that's the best solution , just a balanced natural diet, I include raw milk and cheese, fish, grass fed beef -

Nina Planck: Food Writer & Expert on Farmers' Markets & Local Food
Why do I defend real food? Because it's under attack.

Don't you find it odd that the experts blame butter and beef for heart disease, even though heart disease as we know it has only been around since 1912, and we've been eating butter for 30,000 years and beef for 3 million?

Don't you find it funny that the foods in all traditional diets - starting with breast milk - are loaded with saturated fat and cholesterol, yet people who eat these traditional foods liberally don't get heart disease? Nor are they fat or diabetic.

As I said before, if you have to go out of your way to eat something to make up for the deficiencies of vegetarian type diets, than that should tell you something is inherently wrong with that diet.

[Narz]

Originally Posted by escapee

See if u are a vegetarian ( with egg consumption or dairy), i would say " yeah maybe " .

if you are a strict vegans and you're planning to raise your children with the same strict diet, I would be hesistate to say the same thing.

Good luck and stay healthy

It's possible to raise a family vegan. Check out Raw Food

[Savage]

So the Great Protein Myth rears its ugly head again:
http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-protein-myth/

Having not eaten an ounce of animal products in over 10 years, I'm still eagerly waiting for that protein deficiency to kick in. I'm sure it will happen any day now...

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by Narz

It's possible to raise a family vegan. Check out Raw Food

How do I get intro material on this diet?

[Narz]

They have e-books and free blogs.

I met the father of the family Storm (went on a boat trip with him for a weekend), really nice guy, very unpretentious and friendly.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by Narz

They have e-books and free blogs.

I met the father of the family Storm (went on a boat trip with him for a weekend), really nice guy, very unpretentious and friendly.

For most of my life, I was athletic and active--until the last five years. Long ago I used to be a bicycle racer and weighed 170 lbs at 6'1" which is huge by bicycle racing standards. So to try to shave off a few more pounds for the hill climbs, I went vegetarian and got down to about 160-165. But I think those final pounds were all muscle as I felt very weakened by their loss. This experience (about 3 decades ago) turned me off vegetarianism. While on my vegetarian diet I was obsessed with getting enough protein. I relied on a few books to show me how, but always felt weaker than I had been on meat.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by Narz

I met the father of the family Storm (went on a boat trip with him for a weekend), really nice guy, very unpretentious and friendly.

So you will vouch for the fact that he looks in real life as he does in his pictures?

Matt Furey uses 10 year old pictures in his ads and on his sites. He's about 40 pounds heavier now.

[tomn8er]

Ok then, it seems like the consensus is that vegans, vegetarians, and meat-eaters can all be healthy or unhealthy - depending on what foods their diet consists of.

I myself have been a meat-eater all my life. Recently, I just transitioned to veganism, (not 100% strict, I still eat honey and little amounts of chocolate and fish oil) but at least 90% of my diet is free of animal products. I find that although my protein intake has indeed dropped - which is ok because i actually want to lose muscle mass and become a little leaner - my overall diet has definitely improved b/c i am forcing myself to eat more fruits and veggies.
I am a mesomorph and naturally muscular so maintaining muscle mass has never been an issue for me.

Also, I don't really feel any more or less energenic, or any other perceivable chnage in health than before I changed my diet. Except that I find my meals are a lot easier to digest now without meat and dairy.

So basically I think that people can be healthy without meat and even without animal products in our diets as long as we are careful to steer clear of (for the most part) the processed, fried, and other junk foods.

I think its important what Steve says about looking at perspectives from the inside. So if one wants to bash vegetarianism or veganism, he/she should try it out first to make a more accurate comparison.