Most Vegetarians Are Unhealthy - Importance Of Dietary Protein.

[Curtis2011]

Originally Posted by Conan Stevens

[INDENT]Take for example a young lady I was friends with in Australia. She became vegetarian. Now she was cool. She only ate vegetarian things like potato chips (french fries for the Americans) and vegetarian pizza, yeah she was so cool and healthy now....

Okay, someone who eats pizza and french fries is OBVIOUSLY not eating healthy foods.

I don't see how this is an argument against vegetarianism.

[Dimond]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

What is a potato doing in this list?

White potato is extremely unhealthy despite what we're taught.

[AdemEarth]

And where do animals get THEIR protein?

PLANTS

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by AdemEarth

And where do animals get THEIR protein?

PLANTS

Yes, but our bodies are not built like pretty much every single herbivore out there and there for we can't process the plant matter the way other animals can. We do, but not nearly as well as they do. And most animals eat A LOT of bugs while eating plants.

[InfinitySpirit]

I agree you that you need protein, but there are many sources of protein...We also could use the fat, which we get alot of from one serving of red meat...So yes it is probably not bad to eat meat, just not everyday, and in small portions...

[AdemEarth]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Yes, but our bodies are not built like pretty much every single herbivore out there and there for we can't process the plant matter the way other animals can. We do, but not nearly as well as they do. And most animals eat A LOT of bugs while eating plants.

I would say that the bodies of a lot of (not all) people in their present state (very polluted), cannot process the plant matter the way many animals can.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Yes, but our bodies are not built like pretty much every single herbivore out there and there for we can't process the plant matter the way other animals can.

We have the digestive system of a near herbivore such as a gorilla, chimpanzee or orangutan. I'd say about 2% of our diet as meat is fine but not necessary at all. I choose not to eat that 2% for other reasons but if those other reasons did not exist, based on our digestive system I'd eat about 2% of my diet as meat. And we aren't grass eating herbivores either - so don't compare us to a dog and a cow and conclude that we must be omnivores. Since we have a digestive system very similar to the other great apes, who eat mostly plants, it is logical to say that plant food is very beneficial to us, and that any meat eating in ancient humans was not significant enough to cause a shift in our digestive capabilities.

You also said in a previous post that gorillas eat meat, and probably found a video of a gorilla killing a monkey or something. This does not make gorillas omnivores, it just means in a rare situation a gorilla may do something out of the ordinary. It is true natural herbivores eat some insects, usually by mistake. I've done it before too.

You say we can't process the plant matter like other animals can - but does that mean you think we can process animal matter like other animals can?

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Beuford

We have the digestive system of a near herbivore such as a gorilla, chimpanzee or orangutan. I'd say about 2% of our diet as meat is fine but not necessary at all. I choose not to eat that 2% for other reasons but if those other reasons did not exist, based on our digestive system I'd eat about 2% of my diet as meat. And we aren't grass eating herbivores either - so don't compare us to a dog and a cow and conclude that we must be omnivores. Since we have a digestive system very similar to the other great apes, who eat mostly plants, it is logical to say that plant food is very beneficial to us, and that any meat eating in ancient humans was not significant enough to cause a shift in our digestive capabilities.

You also said in a previous post that gorillas eat meat, and probably found a video of a gorilla killing a monkey or something. This does not make gorillas omnivores, it just means in a rare situation a gorilla may do something out of the ordinary. It is true natural herbivores eat some insects, usually by mistake. I've done it before too.

You say we can't process the plant matter like other animals can - but does that mean you think we can process animal matter like other animals can?

There is a reason that most apes, including the human variety have canines. Can you explain the reason for canines? Sure as hell ain't to rip apart leaves. We have problems processing animal matter because we cook it. monkes and other apes eat bugs not just by accident ( which is usually a lot of bugs as it is) but will do it on purpose. They even fashion " tool" to poke into ant hills or termite mounds. All that can not just be 2% like you claim. And considering that their bodies are much more suited for eating plants then ours, it's fairly easy to conclude that we were meant to eat more animal material then they do. Just because our digestive system is similar, doesn't make it the same. After so many generations of our ancestors eating meat ( and I'm assuming you believe in evolution, at least slightly), how can you not assume that our bodies have adapted to meat eating over such a long period of time? I'd wager to say that even the introduction of cooking our food has already dramatically and fundamentally changed our digestive system. Our ancestors did not eat just 2% in their diet. Where did you get that number from anyways?

Even if humans weren't meant to eat meat, we have adapted. With such biological adaptation over 100's of generations, can our bodies really handle not eating any meat at this point? We've seen that even with just a dozen generations, our biological structure changes. We become better suited for certain foods, and with generations of people not eating a certain food, we've become less suited for those certain foods.

[votoshka]

As for human teeth... the canines of humans really can't be compared to the canines of obligate carnivores... ours our not very sharp at all, and certainly wouldn't be great at ripping animal flesh.

Also, human evolution can't occur without a REASON for it occurring. Even if humans ate meat for hundreds of generations, there is still no reason why our digestive systems would have changed during that time, unless, for example, every human unable to properly digest meat died out and therefore couldn't reproduce.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by Conan Stevens

From an article on my website:

Vegetarianism and Protein Deficiencies
[INDENT]

Most vegetarians I meet (maybe just the vocal ones) are doing it because it is 'trendy' in their circles or they had some emotional guilt towards livestock. They do not generally do much study and then eat a ton of bad foods, in bad quantities and in bad mixes. Since they do not eat much protein then it means that they often eat more fats and sugars to satisfy their hunger cravings.... ingesting fat+sugar = you'll become a fat lump.

Wow this is an old post. Applying what you found with the person turning vegetarian and applying that to all vegetarians isn't even an argument. As a lifelong vegetarian- vegan for a year I can say from personal experience that protein isn't even an issue (as Steve mentions the protein myth). It's just all been said before, I actually get far more amino-acids as a vegan than I ever did as a vegetarian.

People who eat more fats and sugars as they are not getting enough protein span across all dietary types. I see plenty of huge meaters who eat the wrong things. 80% of my friends are vegans or vegetarians, and the only overweight vegetarian I know is 50+, drinks excessively and doesn't exercise at all. But that is in my own experience. People who eat the wrong things get fat. Whether they are vegan/ vegetarian or meat eater.

Any change in diet should be an informed change.

The canine teeth humans have would not be very useful in tearing apart meat. I would disagree and say they are indeed to break apart plant matter!

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by votoshka

As for human teeth... the canines of humans really can't be compared to the canines of obligate carnivores... ours our not very sharp at all, and certainly wouldn't be great at ripping animal flesh.

Also, human evolution can't occur without a REASON for it occurring. Even if humans ate meat for hundreds of generations, there is still no reason why our digestive systems would have changed during that time, unless, for example, every human unable to properly digest meat died out and therefore couldn't reproduce.

They can't be compared and no one is comparing them, because no one ever claimed we were remotely carnivore. The canines of humans really can't be compared to the teeth of strictly herbivores either tho. We aren't built to chew leaves. You can see tooth structure changes with in a few dozen generations. Our teeth and stomachs are perfectly capable of tearing apart and digesting RAW tissue.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Our teeth and stomachs are perfectly capable of tearing apart and digesting RAW tissue.

That's exactly why your stomach acids are 10x weaker than an omnivores, and your teeth 10x blunter. I'd believe what you said, if I were a bear.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Beuford

That's exactly why your stomach acids are 10x weaker than an omnivores, and your teeth 10x blunter. I'd believe what you said, if I were a bear.

I didn't say they were great. I just said they were perfectly CAPABLE. Our teeth have become blunter over time because we've been using tools for how long now? While most omnivore/carnivores have needed sharp teeth for just about their entire evolutionary cycle. Our stomachs have also evolved to this point, while every single other omnivore has been eating the same thing and eating it the same way, for ever. Our jaws have gotten smaller. Our teeth have crowded together and gotten blunter and duller. You haven't proved anything but the fact that we've evolved due to our easier lifestyles, vs other meat eaters.

[Aleksander Krstic]

1.protein is bad: protein weight loss= bad weight loss=gaining weight as a veg is temporary
2.unhealthy vegs=temporary=detox+emo. detox
3.some people are not doing it right

BS. BS, BS all the way!!!!!!!!!!!

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Choosing to be compassionate toward animals is no ****ing trend.

Just wanted to make sure everyone's clear on that.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Choosing to be compassionate toward animals is no ****ing trend.

Just wanted to make sure everyone's clear on that.

Vegetarianism IS a trend. Just wanted to make that clear. Meat eating is not.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Vegetarianism IS a trend. Just wanted to make that clear. Meat eating is not.

Wrong. I am going to disagree with you and then not back it up.

Because I can.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

Wrong. I am going to disagree with you and then not back it up.

Because I can.

Vegetarianism is a trend, because most people are doing it because it's becoming trendy. Why did you all of a sudden decide to bring up compassion for animals? As if that is the main reason people become vegetarians? How many LIFE LONG vegetarians do you know? most I know do it for a few years. Many people on here have posted how they used to be vegetarians. You can find countless people online who post that they used to be vegetarians. Vegetarianism was not always around, or at least not around in any large enough numbers to actually matter. Once it became mainstream and TRENDY, people started doing it. THAT is the definition of a trend. Hell, honestly, just about most things our society does these days is a trend. Yes, even compassion towards anything is a trend. Once compassion for animals, and the hippy movement, and PETA, and no furs, etc etc started to become mainstream and TRENDY, people started doing it. You might not want to believe that or think all humans are decent caring people and are just going to their roots and that not caring for animals is a trend.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Vegetarianism is a trend, because most people are doing it because it's becoming trendy. Why did you all of a sudden decide to bring up compassion for animals? As if that is the main reason people become vegetarians? How many LIFE LONG vegetarians do you know? most I know do it for a few years. Many people on here have posted how they used to be vegetarians. You can find countless people online who post that they used to be vegetarians. Vegetarianism was not always around, or at least not around in any large enough numbers to actually matter. Once it became mainstream and TRENDY, people started doing it. THAT is the definition of a trend. Hell, honestly, just about most things our society does these days is a trend. Yes, even compassion towards anything is a trend. Once compassion for animals, and the hippy movement, and PETA, and no furs, etc etc started to become mainstream and TRENDY, people started doing it. You might not want to believe that or think all humans are decent caring people and are just going to their roots and that not caring for animals is a trend.

You have a very limited view on people choosing to be vegetarian. I happen to know at the very least 5 people who have been lifelong vegetarians and still are as they have not kicked the bucket just yet. I became vegetarian out of compassion and nearly all the vegetarians I know also had compassion as their motivation. The root purpose of vegetarianism, is compassion. It was never started for health reasons. Back in ancient India, diet fads simply did not exist. Compassionate monks, ascetics and commoners who felt more kinship with the Earth and so on chose to forego meat based diets out of respect and love for the animals they would kill in order to have temporary satisfaction. Buddhism although not espousing vegetarianism as one of their tenets or philosophies, taught and still teaches that every being considers life to be precious. To take the life of another being is cause for suffering, or so the teachings go. Buddha was born around 500 b.c. and even before that Hindi monks were practicing vegetarianism. And not just a handful. We're talking about an entire region of the world with a large population of vegetarians. If that isn't alot of people I don't know what is. Vegetarianism has been around for a very very long time. In more northern civilizations where agriculture was not very effective eating a meat based diet was a good way to not starve to death.

Just because you see a few quitters who started being a vegetarian for entirely selfish reasons does not mean everyone does so for the same intent. There are actually people who believe firmly in compassionate treatment of animals and practice daily what they may or may not preach (I find the humble vegetarian is usually the one that loves the lifestyle and wouldn't think of going back whereas the preacher and braggart is quick to 'quit' because they started 'some trendy diet' for self image). I don't know you or how life has colored your outlook, but you seem to believe that compassionate people are somewhat shallow and are actually a new development. It betrays a shallow grasp of history but I honestly have little interest in attempting to remedy that.

I don't follow the lifestyle for the image. I don't do it to fit in or to look 'cool'. Infact I ended up being teased by my peers in high school for it. Some of them even felt 'sorry' for me, which was amusing to say the least since my food tasted better than theirs most of the time. There seems to be this misconception that to be vegan/vegetarian you have to be some kind of martyr. That goes directly against the entire purpose of the lifestyle, which is a step closer to a world free from suffering (technically impossible, but we can get close all the same).

Compassion is not a trend, it is an emotion. Vegetarianism/veganism is a tradition created from compassion. To call either one a trend is a mistake.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by KaleidoskopicVision

You have a very limited view on people choosing to be vegetarian. I happen to know at the very least 5 people who have been lifelong vegetarians and still are as they have not kicked the bucket just yet. I became vegetarian out of compassion and nearly all the vegetarians I know also had compassion as their motivation. The root purpose of vegetarianism, is compassion. It was never started for health reasons. Back in ancient India, diet fads simply did not exist. Compassionate monks, ascetics and commoners who felt more kinship with the Earth and so on chose to forego meat based diets out of respect and love for the animals they would kill in order to have temporary satisfaction. Buddhism although not espousing vegetarianism as one of their tenets or philosophies, taught and still teaches that every being considers life to be precious. To take the life of another being is cause for suffering, or so the teachings go. Buddha was born around 500 b.c. and even before that Hindi monks were practicing vegetarianism. And not just a handful. We're talking about an entire region of the world with a large population of vegetarians. If that isn't alot of people I don't know what is. Vegetarianism has been around for a very very long time. In more northern civilizations where agriculture was not very effective eating a meat based diet was a good way to not starve to death.

Just because you see a few quitters who started being a vegetarian for entirely selfish reasons does not mean everyone does so for the same intent. There are actually people who believe firmly in compassionate treatment of animals and practice daily what they may or may not preach (I find the humble vegetarian is usually the one that loves the lifestyle and wouldn't think of going back whereas the preacher and braggart is quick to 'quit' because they started 'some trendy diet' for self image). I don't know you or how life has colored your outlook, but you seem to believe that compassionate people are somewhat shallow and are actually a new development. It betrays a shallow grasp of history but I honestly have little interest in attempting to remedy that.

I don't follow the lifestyle for the image. I don't do it to fit in or to look 'cool'. Infact I ended up being teased by my peers in high school for it. Some of them even felt 'sorry' for me, which was amusing to say the least since my food tasted better than theirs most of the time. There seems to be this misconception that to be vegan/vegetarian you have to be some kind of martyr. That goes directly against the entire purpose of the lifestyle, which is a step closer to a world free from suffering (technically impossible, but we can get close all the same).

Compassion is not a trend, it is an emotion. Vegetarianism/veganism is a tradition created from compassion. To call either one a trend is a mistake.

You have a very limited view on people choosing to be a vegetarian I happen to know at the very least 10 people who have become vegetarians for a few years, and they have stopped. I tried being a vegetarian out of health reasons, and nearly all the vegetarians I know also had health reasons behind their motivation, except for maybe two. What started in ancient India has no bearing on whether people of TODAY do it for compassion. People who do it out of religious conviction also don't count. Again, these people are doing it for religious reasons, one way or another. The vegetarians of today ARE NOT. The MAJORITY of the worlds population has, is, and always will eat meat. The majority of vegetarians in other countries do it because veggies are easier to grow, and much cheaper. They also could not store meat like people do now.


Just because you haven't see as many quitters as I have, ( 90% of the people I've seen start, quit, and I'm not very old so that's a short time span) who not all, but mostly started for selfish reasons does not mean that not everyone does so for the same intent. There are people that believe all humans that aren't like them should die, and even if they don't preach it, they don't quit any time soon. Compassionate people are not new, but the ones now ARE absolutely shallow by majority and are a new TRENDY development. For god sakes man, turn on the television or read blogs or articles or something. History has nothing to do with this topic as the people of history had completely different reasons for doing what they did.

Why you do it has nothing to do with why other people do it. Your opinion of how good food tastes also has nothing to do with it, as your aversion to meat made you look at all of it in a very untasted manner. I know that, because I see junk food the same way. And those people who teased you saw their food as much tastier then yours. Who said anything about being a martyr? Prove to me that plants don't suffer? How many animals die because of the deforestation required to plant your food in remote places?

Everything is an emotion. Even emotions are a trend. Hiding your emotions used to be very big before too. Vegetarianism was a tradition created frmo compassion, and now has become a trend. I could go into much more detail to debate you, if I actually cared enough about the topic, but really, I don't.

[Eric L]

"Most bodybuilders have a limited mental capacity because of their brain is flooded with testosterone." - Importance to not have a huge, useless bulk of muscles attached to you.

Do you get my point, Conan?

[Creative]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Vegetarianism IS a trend. Just wanted to make that clear. Meat eating is not.

Yeah the vegetarian "trend" in my family which spans several generations (I am Indian and my great-great grandma is still alive) seems to be working out pretty well for me.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Vegetarianism is a trend, because most people are doing it because it's becoming trendy. Why did you all of a sudden decide to bring up compassion for animals? As if that is the main reason people become vegetarians? How many LIFE LONG vegetarians do you know? most I know do it for a few years.

I know fifty seven life-long lacto-vegetarians and I'm not including the hundreds of family members in that. Just because something becomes trendy does not make it a trend. Running may become trendy- but I'm pretty sure you would not call it a trend. And compassion for animals is an inherent part of many cultures- such as Hinduism and Buddhism which go back thousands of years. I hope compassion for living beings never becomes something that people suddenly do- that's sad. Especially in a forum where we aspire to live consciously.

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Creative

Yeah the vegetarian "trend" in my family which spans several generations (I am Indian and my great-great grandma is still alive) seems to be working out pretty well for me.

I don't understand why this concept is so hard to grasp. Your family doing it for generations, because of the background that you come from, doesn't make something NOT a trend. Just about every trend that we have in our society stems impart or fully from something that was around for a very long time, if not even still around with people who do it as a complete life style. Doesn't make a trend no longer a trend tho. And on top of that, it's mostly a trend among young people of this generation.

Who would ever associate this generation with doing something trendy.....

[moonrambler]

*** thread reopened ***

Let's keep it calm.

[KaleidoskopicVision]

Bleh. I had a long winded post ready to go, deleted it because it got locked. Oh well. Let's just blow past it. I've been awake for 3 days straight anyway. My head's not on straight.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by votoshka

As for human teeth... the canines of humans really can't be compared to the canines of obligate carnivores... ours our not very sharp at all, and certainly wouldn't be great at ripping animal flesh.

I agree with you there—that's why a lot of early humans and modern hunter and gatherers mainly ate the organ meats, which are soft and highly nutritious. They only ate the meat if the hunting was poor.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Creative

Yeah the vegetarian "trend" in my family which spans several generations (I am Indian and my great-great grandma is still alive) seems to be working out pretty well for me.

I'll bet! I've heard all about your wonderful dairy foods like ghee, which is considered a sacred food (much like the isolated Swiss villagers that Weston Price studied who consumed mostly dairy).

People certainly do attain great health eating dairy from grass-fed cows and eggs from chicken who eat bugs.

[Creative]

Originally Posted by liamona

I'll bet! I've heard all about your wonderful dairy foods like ghee, which is considered a sacred food (much like the isolated Swiss villagers that Weston Price studied who consumed mostly dairy).

People certainly do attain great health eating dairy from grass-fed cows and eggs from chicken who eat bugs.

Ah I should update- I have been vegan for almost a year. Though I do consume Hare Krishna prasadam made from organic "cruelty free" ghee and milk. Unfortunately this isn't very often because the Bhaktivedanta Manor is quite far from where I live.

[CroMagna]

Conan, what do you think of the Raw Food diet which I am currently on?