Most Vegetarians Are Unhealthy - Importance Of Dietary Protein.

[radeldudel]

Originally Posted by moviestar

I love animals, that's why I eat them.

I love plants, too, like I love animals. And I believe *everything* has a soul, so for me it does not change anything if I eat meat or not.

Remember, your belief shapes your world. If you belief vegan is unhealthy it will work for you like that and you'll see a lot examples why you are right. Likewise, if you belief animals got souls but plants got none, it will change your own soul depending on what you eat.
And if you believe going vegan will give you more energy (like Steve), your reality will try its best to follow along.

Everyone of us has, and creates his own reality. And his reality will try to work like his belief tells him.

So be nice, you all are right of course. Right for your own reality, for yourself.
We are all creators. We are all one.

Love you!

[Keith]

I'm not sure why people are wasting so much energy replying to this troll.

If he was genuinely interested in informing people his post would have been called something like "Things for new vegetarians to watch out for".

Instead he chose a 'shock' title and launched straight into attacking a strawman.

IMO, let the troll have its "pay attention to me" tantrum and don't waste any more energy responding to it.

[EDIT] P.S. The linked article is considerably better. The original post appears to be the most vitriolic parts of that article/blog post posted out of context. eg. In the article he disclaimed the cautionary example first, rather than using it to open with.

BTW, a couple of typos in that article: thinkn->think and becasue-> because

[da1prophet]

Originally Posted by Keith

I'm not sure why people are wasting so much energy replying to this troll.

If he was genuinely interested in informing people his post would have been called something like "Things for new vegetarians to watch out for".

Instead he chose a 'shock' title and launched straight into attacking a strawman.

IMO, let the troll have its "pay attention to me" tantrum and don't waste any more energy responding to it.

[EDIT] P.S. The linked article is considerably better. The original post appears to be the most vitriolic parts of that article/blog post posted out of context. eg. In the article he disclaimed the cautionary example first, rather than using it to open with.

BTW, a couple of typos in that article: thinkn->think and becasue-> because

I agree with you in theory, but I think that the reason people--myself included--have gone to the trouble to respond to him is that his sort of trolling is antithetical to this forum's purposes and that very little of it has gone on in here. Typically ignoring trolls like this is, as you suggest, the right idea...

[escapee]

I believe the title is as controversial as "10 reasons you should never get a job" or " health studies are worthless" . It's controversial and fun to get into discussion.

Peace

[Conan Stevens]

Judging by the number of intelligent responses this post got I don't think it qualifies as a trolling session. Also it seems some Vegetarians learnt something new - and that never hurt anyone (well maybe emotionally, but that would be because their ideals were emotionally based)

[impaul99]

Conan:

1) It is perfectly possible to have a healthy diet eating no meat.

2) Some vegetarians, especially the ones who are in it for the fad factor don't eat healthy. Just because you're vegetarian doesn't mean you're healthy.

3) Meat eaters suffer the same fate, however, if they don't have a proper diet.

4) In North America, unlike Cambodia, the average person consumes WAY more than enough protein per day. I think the average is about 2-3times the recommended amount. It is very easy to consume the proper amount of protein, including all the different types of amino acids by combining different types of proteins throughout the day. They don't have to be eaten at the same time either.

5) Just because your physique is muscular, it doesn't necessarily mean you are healthy. FIT and HEALTHY are not the same thing. I'm not saying you're not healthy, but I'm just saying we can't tell by looking at a picture.

What I would suggest, if you'd like to really help people is to change your article to say something like "HOW TO BE A HEALTHY VEGETARIAN" and include in it your research for what most vegetarians are missing, instead of saying that most vegetarians are unhealthy.

Also your quote on your website says:

Yes Mr. Pavlina I am talking to you. If you are going to spout off about Vegetarianism being healthy then have the common sense to research it and provide proper advice to people genuinely interested in their health. And YES protein is important, to thinkn otherwise is plain stupid.

I have not read anywhere on Steve's site where he says to cut out protein out of your diet. He simply advocates getting it from vegetarian sources.

6) I still eat meat, but mostly because it tastes good to me, but I fully realize that red meat is not good for me due to it's high saturated fat content.

7) You're a big guy. Don't beat me up.

[escapee]

4) In North America, unlike Cambodia, the average person consumes WAY more than enough protein per day. I think the average is about 2-3times the recommended amount. It is very easy to consume the proper amount of protein, including all the different types of amino acids by combining different types of proteins throughout the day. They don't have to be eaten at the same time either.

The current obesity problem in North America isn't high protein consumption but high refined carbohydrate intake in the form of flour based products, sugar, soda, bread, potatoes chips and the deadly trans fat/high vege oil consumption. Take those human made fake food and fake fat off the meal ppl would start living great. It really takes alot fake food and bad oil to manifest a disease called cancer or heart disease.


The French eats more saturated fats than the American in general but why they have much lower heart problem ? Our ancestors eat alot more butter, animal oil and saturated fats than us but why they werent as proned to chronic illness than us ? How can you explain such a discrepancy ? The answer lies in The Skinny on Fats. I hope you would read the article in full .

Amazon.com: Eat Fat, Lose Fat: The Healthy Alternative to Trans Fats: Books: Mary Enig,Sally Fallon

[escapee]

Enjoy reading !

Myths and Truths About Osteoporosis (Do high protein diets cause bone loss?)

The 1972 study comparing British vegetarians and omnivores calls for additional comment. Bone density determinations through absorptiometry or X-ray are highly subject to error26, especially in unblinded studies where researchers may be biased towards obtaining pre-determined results. Subjects were matched merely for age, height and sex, but not for body composition and dietary habits such as smoking and sugar, coffee and alcohol consumption. A group of omnivores that smokes, drinks and indulges in a calcium-poor diet of refined carbohydrates will naturally have more of a tendency to bone loss than a group of health-conscious lacto-ovo vegetarians who consume plenty of dairy products. (British vegetarians do, in fact, tend to be very health conscious, avoiding not only meat but also alcohol, cigarettes, coffee and soft drinks. Unlike American vegetarians, they understand the importance of calcium-rich whole dairy products in the diet and eat plentifully of milk, cheese, butter and eggs.) When researchers compare the effects of high-meat diets to normal diets in the same person, no adverse effects are found, even over extended periods of time.27

Individuals who find they do better on high meat diets need not, therefore, worry about osteoporosis, as long as their diet includes complementary animal fats, plenty of calcium and a variety of other properly prepared whole foods.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by escapee

The current obesity problem in North America isn't high protein consumption but high refined carbohydrate intake in the form of flour based products, sugar, soda, bread, potatoes chips and the deadly trans fat/high vege oil consumption. Take those human made fake food and fake fat off the meal ppl would start living great.

Yup I agree. I didn't say protein caused obesity. I just said in North America we don't have a "too little protein" problem like they might in Cambodia (in response to Conan's comments about Cambodia).

[impaul99]

When researchers compare the effects of high-meat diets to normal diets in the same person, no adverse effects are found, even over extended periods of time.27

Ok then. Read the following from "The China Study":

...The aim of these efforts in the Philippines was simple: make sure that children were getting as much protein as possible. It was widely thought that much of the childhood malnutrition in the world was caused by a lack of protein, especially from animal-based foods. Universities and governments around the world were working to alleviate a perceived “protein gap” in the
developing world.

In this project, however, I uncovered a dark secret. Children who ate the highest-protein diets were the ones most likely to get liver cancer! They were the children of the wealthiest families.

I then noticed a research report from India that had some very provocative, relevant findings. Indian researchers had studied two groups of rats. In one group, they administered the cancer causing aflatoxin, then fed a diet that was composed of 20% protein, a level near what many of us consume in the West. In the other group, they administered the same amount of aflatoxin,
but then fed a diet that was only composed of 5% protein. Incredibly, every single animal that consumed the 20% protein diet had evidence of liver cancer, and every single animal that consumed a 5% protein diet avoided liver cancer. It was a 100 to 0 score, leaving no doubt that nutrition trumped chemical carcinogens, even very potent carcinogens, in controlling cancer.

This information countered everything I had been taught. It was heretical to say that protein wasn’t healthy, let alone say it promoted cancer. It was a defining moment in my career. Investigating such a provocative question so early in my career was not a very wise choice.

Questioning protein and animal-based foods in general ran the risk of my being labeled a heretic, even if it passed the test of “good science.”
But I never was much for following directions just for the sake of following directions. When I first learned to drive a team of horses or herd cattle, to hunt animals, to fish our creek or to work in the fields, I came to accept that independent thinking was part of the deal. It had to be. Encountering problems in the field meant that I had to figure out what to do next. It was a
great classroom, as any farm boy can tell you. That sense of independence has stayed with me until today.

So, faced with a difficult decision, I decided to start an in-depth laboratory program that would investigate the role of nutrition, especially protein, in the development of cancer. My colleagues and I were cautious in framing our hypotheses, rigorous in our methodology and
conservative in interpreting our findings. I chose to do this research at a very basic science level, studying the biochemical details of cancer formation. It was important to understand not only whether but also how protein might promote cancer. It was the best of all worlds. By
carefully following the rules of good science, I was able to study a provocative topic without provoking knee-jerk responses that arise with radical ideas. Eventually, this research became handsomely funded for twenty-seven years by the best reviewed and most competitive funding
sources [mostly the National Institutes of Health (NIH), the American Cancer Society and the American Institute for Cancer Research]. Then our results were reviewed (a second time) for publication in many of the best scientific journals.

What we found was shocking. Low-protein diets inhibited the initiation of cancer by aflatoxin, regardless of how much of this carcinogen was administered to these animals. After cancer
initiation was completed, low-protein diets also dramatically blocked subsequent cancer growth. In other words, the cancer-producing effects of this highly carcinogenic chemical were rendered insignificant by a low-protein diet. In fact, dietary protein proved to be so powerful in its
effect that we could turn on and turn off cancer growth simply by changing the level consumed.

Furthermore, the amounts of protein being fed were those that we humans routinely consume. We didn’t use extraordinary levels, as is so often the case in carcinogen studies. But that’s not all. We found that not all proteins had this effect. What protein consistently and strongly promoted cancer? Casein, which makes up 87% of cow’s milk protein, promoted all
stages of the cancer process. What type of protein did not promote cancer, even at high levels of intake? The safe proteins were from plants, including wheat and soy. As this picture came
into view, it began to challenge and then to shatter some of my most cherished assumptions.

These experimental animal studies didn’t end there. I went on to direct the most comprehensive study of diet, lifestyle and disease ever done with humans in the history of biomedical research. It was a massive undertaking jointly arranged through Cornell University, Oxford University and the Chinese Academy of Preventive Medicine. The New York Times called it the “Grand Prix of Epidemiology.” This project surveyed a vast range of diseases and diet and lifestyle factors in rural China and, more recently, in Taiwan. More
commonly known as the China Study, this project eventually produced more than 8,000 statistically significant associations between various dietary factors and disease!
What made this project especially remarkable is that, among the many associations that are relevant to diet and disease, so many pointed to the same finding: people who ate the most animal-based foods got the most chronic disease. Even relatively small intakes of animal-based
food were associated with adverse effects. People who ate the most plant-based foods were the healthiest and tended to avoid chronic disease. These results could not be ignored. From the
initial experimental animal studies on animal protein effects to this massive human study on dietary patterns, the findings proved to be consistent. The health implications of consuming either animal or plant-based nutrients were remarkably different.

Here's the link to the book: ::: THE CHINA STUDY :::

Still want to eat meat?

[moviestar]

First of all, rats are not humans.
Second, Philippinians are a selected group of people that might tolerate protein differently.
Third examine who sponsored the study. I'll bet 10$ that soy companies did this research.

[impaul99]

Originally Posted by moviestar

First of all, rats are not humans.
Second, Philippinians are a selected group of people that might tolerate protein differently.
Third examine who sponsored the study. I'll bet 10$ that soy companies did this research.

1) The study started with animals, but later moved onto humans. The research results they're talking about are from humans.

2) Phillipians weren't the only ones tested. THat was just one part of the study.

3) Nope. The research wasn't paid for by SOY companies. The major funding came from National Institutes of Health (NIH), the American Cancer Society and the American Institute for Cancer Research who have no hidden conspiracy agenda to promote SOY or vegetarian products.

Also, not targeting the following specifically at YOU, but rather the meat eating/defending group of people:

That whole arguement of discrediting research studies that show that meat is bad because suppedly there's a vegetarian conspiracy involved with the research being paid for by SOY companies is kinda weak. How do you know that PRO-MEAT studies aren't paid for by the Beef and Cattle companies? If you're going to discredit research studies due to bias caused by their $ backing, then you have to discount ALL of them, not just the ones that disagree with your point of view.

As I said before, I'm a meat eater. I still eat meat. But only because it tastes good, not because it's good for me. I know it's crap and am slowly decreasing my consumption of it. If I had the discipline, I'd cut out all red meat right now. I've seen enough evidence that it's bad stuff. And I have no spiritual reason for it either. Meaning, although I like animals, I wouldn't stop eating meat just because of that reason. For me it would be a purely health related issue.

I see meat just like Coca-Cola. We all know it's bad for us. We drink it anways, because it tastes good and water tastes like crap. So for now I still drink it once in a while but I know it's bad, just like eating a donut. What's funny about MEAT is that even though there is overwhelming evidence that it isn't good for you, people get so offended by the suggestion that it's bad for us, you'd think we're asking to remove their testicles or something. It's like if you don't eat MEAT you're not a REAL MAN. If you don't eat meat you must be WEAK. It's like we don't want to give it up because it reminds us of the caveman days we miss where we could eat meat and walk around with clubs wacking women in the head and pulling them into our caves by their hair or something.

If you need to eat meat to feel like a man, then keep eating it. I'm not going to stop you, nor should anybody else. But to suggest that one MUST eat meat otherwise they will die of malnutrition is pretty ignorant.

I'm not even going to start with how bad MILK is for you either.

The battle between MEAT vs. VEGETARIAN is and will still be a battle of EGO's for a long time.

[sirkinm]

Originally Posted by impaul99

2) Phillipians weren't the only ones tested. THat was just one part of the study.

Sorry, I'm not trying to take this thread off-track, but "Phillipians?" Isn't that a book in the New Testament of the Christian bible? If you're talking about people of the Philippines, it's "Filipinos."

[blossom]

Ah, you're replying to a thread from over 3 years ago!

[Nameless One]

Some call it grave-digging. But I think this kind of underscores the phenomenon of diet A vs diet B vs diet C. It's really fun to argue about diets.

[Topher]

Now, in general, a vegetarian diet is not a healthy diet. In order to have a healthy vegetarian diet, one must avail themselves of eggs (best source of natural protien God created) milk and other dairy. I was a vegetarian for 4 years. I made fresh vegetable juice on a daily basis, made fresh fruit smoothies with every fruit imaginable for breakfast, ate salad all the time, drank soy, and ate whole grains. I started to become fat, my metabolism was all but destroyed.

Yes, I learned that I ate to much breads, beans potatoes. The breads and beans were one of my sources of protien. There is not much protien in these sources vs the carbs in these sources. I was reading all of the mumbo jumbo "THE FDA IS YOUR ENEMY!!!!" crap, and hanging out with these nature fruits and nuts. I was reading the mags, and the www's. I was convinced of a lot of the ill-informed propaganda that is coming from the New Age "health food fad" that is still growing today.

A little over 2 years ago I got serious about my health. I started working out and exercising. I do cardio and weight lifting on a very regular basis. I began to study health and fitness in a much more in depth way. I began to research nutrition (protien, carbs, fat, vitamins etc.) and supplements, and how they affect and work in our bodies. I spent literally hundreds of hours researching. I learned that good bio-available protien is only found in the animal kingdom. I learned that good bio-available iron is found in beef, and that the iron in plants has a low bio-availability. Also, when it comes to essential fatty acids, it is true that you can find them in flax seed oil and so forth. But, again, the bio-availability of that fat from those sources is also very low compared to fish oil.

The best protien available to us is whey isolate, followed by casein isolate, followed by albumen. The first 2 are isolated milk protiens and the last is egg protien. All protien is rated by egg protien. This being stated, there is absolutely no such thing as a healthy vegan diet. To eat vegan for a month can be healthy, just as fasting for a time can be healthy. But it is not a sustainable healthy option.

Some people have body types that need a much higher protien, and much lower carb diet like myself, and there are people that need more carbs... usually people with A and B blood types. This is not always the case though. But, generally, O type people should have a high meat diet compared to others.

All-in-all, you can be a healthy vegetarian, but I suggest using whey protien powder in smoothies if you decide to be vegetarian. Optimum Nutrition seems to be the most effective for me when it comes to muscle growth. Also, everyone should take a good multi-mineral/vitamin, B complex vitamin, and extra Calcium and Magnesium in a 2 to 1 ratio, along with fish oil. You need these supplements for whatever diet you are on, weather it be carnivore, omnivore or herbivore. Unless you have some kind of illness, you have no need for any other supplements.

If you do have an illness, please do more than a couple hours of research before you decide on any supplements to take for said illness. I say this for this reason... 2 years ago I spent hundreds of dollars on suplements while I was researching. By the time I finished my research, I learned that I wasted a ton of money.

For instance, I recommended calcium and magnesium in the last paragraph as a supplements everyone should take. Many companies offer these two together, or in package deals. They will market for bone health, or heart health, or muscle health, or central nervous-system health. These 2 minerals are a key component in all of these areas. BUT, you need to take about 1500mg Calcium, and 750mg Magnesium to really correct anything, weather it be muscle soreness, atrial fibrilation, high or low blood pressure etc. Most companies sell these minerals at doses so low that it will not affect change in your condition, and the prices are usually quite high. Some prices will appear low, until you look at the dosage. You may find some of these reasonable appearing priced items having 50 to 250 mg per serving. That means that the "30 day supply" is less than a week supply.

BUT, you can go to Walmart, and get the Calcium Citrate and the magnesium. The pills are in higher doses, and you can take them throughout the day. (i.e. split it to different meals) Besides, it is way cheaper than any other place you are going to get it.

One other thing to look at is the fact that generally almost all vitamin companies now have quality products. 10 or 15 years ago that was not the case. Now, the quality bar has risen much higher. So, you can get very good quality vitamins at much cheaper prices. And for the products that are still high in price, you can find them at more reasonable prices on the www. For instance, there are companies with whey powders that perform much better than other competitors. I have tried many, and have settled on one, which I mentioned above. If you search the web, you can find it at nearly half of the retail price. It is average in price compared to other sources, but the walmart whey did not help me grow muscle near as fast as the ON protien. The Muscle Tech protien was also wonderful, and there was another I tried that was ok. I am spacing on the brand right now. The MT stuff is kinda spendy, and I was using there Hydroxy Cut for 2 years before they found that it was destroying livers and killing some people. So, I am a bit leary of them now. They do have a great research program for their products though. Hope I shed some light in my ramblings....

[Topher]

That said, quinoa and soy are both "full protiens" and are very good to use, especially if you are doing a vegan fast (which I do on occasion). I also use soy protien as an extra supplement due to the fact that different protiens work in different ways in your body. For instance, whey isolate helps you to grow muscle faster, casein helps you to retain muscle longer etc.

Quinoa is a miracle grain, and I suggest everyone incorperate it into their diets. Use it any way you would use rice. I made a great cheesy veggie dish with it just the other day. I used asorted veggies and herbs, along with heavy cream and parmesan... you can do so much with it, just like rice.

It is true that many people overeat protien in the US... but they overeat fat and carbs much more so. If you are working out daily, or have an intensely physical job, you need much more protien. Someones calorie intake that is doing intense labor or everyday weight training may be in the 4000s for maintanance and/or desired growth.

The science is there. It does not back the veggie-nazis. The FDA is on our side. The scientific journals are not lying to us. But, a single study is not a conclusive study. A set of studies by one organization is not conclusive either. A series of independent studies IS absolutely reliable. Science trumps conscience when it comes to nutrition. If your conscience tells you that the science is wrong, you need to reform your conscience.

[secrets0stolen]

Meat is an awesome source of protein...for a cat.
Milk is an awesome source of protein...for a calf.
Eggs are an awesome source of protein...for a chicken embryo.

[lolidk]

lol that's what happened to me when I first became a vegetarian. But then I found out about replacing nutrients that I would normally get from meat and other stuff I don't eat anymore and I'm all good.

[Beuford]

Topher I think you might have forgot to eat nuts. Woops! Better luck next time you go vegan

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by lolidk

lol that's what happened to me when I first became a vegetarian. But then I found out about replacing nutrients that I would normally get from meat and other stuff I don't eat anymore and I'm all good.

Are we honestly to assume that our ancestors not only had the knowledge, but the means to acquire every single nutrient that they needed? That just seems a little hard to believe for me. A modern vegetarian/vegan needs to have a ton of knowledge, resources, and availability of food sources to be healthy.It's probably possible to be really healthy not eating any meat, but it takes more time and energy then our ancestors would have put into it.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Are we honestly to assume that our ancestors not only had the knowledge, but the means to acquire every single nutrient that they needed? That just seems a little hard to believe for me. A modern vegetarian/vegan needs to have a ton of knowledge, resources, and availability of food sources to be healthy.It's probably possible to be really healthy not eating any meat, but it takes more time and energy then our ancestors would have put into it.

Nah, now that I have all this knowledge I realise how simple it is. They wouldn't have cared, and they would have been fine. A gorilla can do it so can a human!

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Beuford

Nah, now that I have all this knowledge I realise how simple it is. They wouldn't have cared, and they would have been fine. A gorilla can do it so can a human!

Except a gorilla DOES eat meat. First Proof Gorillas Eat Monkeys? There are plenty of links to choose from. I just figured a NG link would be more credible for most peoples pallets.

On top of that, the amount of bugs they eat over time is also plenty of protein. But even then, their bodies are more adapted to eating vegetables including their very sedentary lifestyle and gobs of stored fat for the winter month. Herbivores also have a variety of specialized digestive organs capable of breaking down cellulose. Us humans find cellulose totally indigestible, and even plant eaters have to take their time with it, seeing how we don't' have an enlarged cecum to store that plant material, vs the gorilla. We need to stop comparing ourselves to other current mammals and look back at our own ancestry instead.

Still tho, I won't argue that the U.S. diet is any better then being a vegetarian. And honestly, when you become a vegetarian, and do your research, you will be more healthy then most of the people in the U.S. For the sheer fact that being one usually means you have to pay close attention to what you eat, and normally that means cutting out all junk food. But not always, as there are many unhealthy vegetarians out there.


PS. Contrary to the whole " if humans were meant to eat meat, we wouldn't have to cook it" argument, I LOVE raw everything. Raw steak. Raw fish. Raw eggs. Raw ( what ever else I haven't tried).

[Eric L]

Conan, you give me the impression that you generalize all vegans by using your old lady friend as an example.

She obviously did not know what she was doing and this was why she gained weight, not because she is vegan. Why use her as an exmaple? Vegans knot what sugar does to you. Use intelligent people as examples.

Conan, I go to extremes to get to the bottom of things.

I will bet you 100$ (seriously) that if I go on a vegan diet and go heavy on protein rich foods (ie. beans, grains, etc.) while on a proper calorie deficit and doing max gain lifts (ie. 4-6 reps of heavy lifting) that I will completely bust your theory. I will catabolise fat and anabolise muscle.

You game? I will prove you wrong or admit you are right.

Let me know.

[Eric L]

Also, people who have gone on this diet and seen dramatic improvements in energy, skin tone and the list goes on versus their old "meat eaters" diet.

I will put both of these to the test. I'll be the guinea pig

[russianrocket]

Originally Posted by Eric L

Also, people who have gone on this diet and seen dramatic improvements in energy, skin tone and the list goes on versus their old "meat eaters" diet.

I will put both of these to the test. I'll be the guinea pig

Please don't say meat eaters diet. Or carnivore ( lol that last one annoys the hell out of me). Most "meat eaters" are just "everything eaters". Can't just call them meat eaters, because that all of a sudden paints them as people who eat nothing but meat. Hell, how about people who only have 10% or even less meat? They aren't vegetarians, and there for would fall into your category of "meat eaters" diet.

Or they didn't pay attention to their diet while being meat eaters and only started paying attention once on their vegetarian diet.

Or the persons genetic makeup was just better suited for eating less meat.

Or the person was eating crap meat.

Hell, there are so many "or's" out there, that you can't just use a blanket statement of saying that being a vegetarian makes you health.

Also, people who have gone on a OMNIVORE diets have seen dramatic improvements in energy, skin tone, and the list goes on, versus their original " leaf eaters" diet.

[Daffy Duck]

I've met many unhealthy Vegetarians. But being a Vegetarian isn't the problem. They're unhealthy because they're not doing it right.

I've also met many unhealthy meat-eaters (aka the typical American). But being a meat-eater isn't the problem. They're unhealthy because they're not doing it right.

That's all I have to add. For me, it would take more effort to be a healthy vegan than a healthy meat-eater. Anyway, thanks for the discussion and article, Conan. I enjoy your site and the stuff you do.

And wow, this topic is old, lol. Conan still posts occasionally though.

[Eric L]

Seriously, I will conduct the biggest most effective research campaign ever conducted on this damn controversy.

I will bust every doubt regarding both diets, I know both are equally good.

People like choosing extremes. "Either you choose this diet or that diet!" They forget we can choose a balanced choice instead. They also need to understand that there are certain steps you need to take to compensate for the different disadvantages you get from either diet!

Non is better. Preferences and an understanding of what a proper diet is and you can choose which ever you please.

I will have read dozens of books and gathered 10 articles on every doubt and aspect of both diets, mark my words.

[arthurb999]

carbohydrate is the main killer in the average western diet, not fat. Eskimos and other aboriginal people with very high fat levels in their diet do not suffer degenerative artery disease in the way we do in the civilized world. However misinformation and ignorance abounds. Whatever science you read extolling the supposed benefits of carbohydrates, this will always refer to complex carbohydrates (meaning whole grains, fruits and vegetables (added by myself) ). This also overlooks the fact that many people are intolerant to grains. Despite all the propaganda, even whole grains are not “natural” foods at all. Man evolved as a hunter gatherer and grains have only been in our diet for the last 10,000 years or so. Many people cannot digest grains but get unpleasant reactions.

Ironically, refined carbohydrates are better tolerated than whole grains by these individuals. But make no mistake, white flour, white sugar, corn syrup, white potato and other starch-rich foods are bad for you and will shorten your life. Yet these are the ingredients commonly used by the food manufacturing industry: Bread, cakes, biscuits, pasta, pastries and other confectionary items, french fries, food thickeners, coffee whiteners, white rice and skimmed milk (milk with the fat reduced has proportionately more sugar!) - these are all stressful to your metabolism. Sooner or later the control mechanism which regulates the flood of such carbohydrates into your body will break down and serious, life-threatening consequences will result.

The four main resulting dangers are:
• obesity
• insulin resistance or hyperinsulinism
• syndrome x
• diabetes

bingo!

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by arthurb999

But make no mistake, white flour, white sugar, corn syrup, white potato and other starch-rich foods are bad for you and will shorten your life.

What is a potato doing in this list?