Humans Are Natural Herbivores

[HealthySoul]

Despite Steve's rather aggressive reasons for following a vegan/raw food lifestyle, many people still like to believe that we should eat meat. Here's an article from my website about how the human body shares many similarities with herbivores and hardly none with true omnivores.

Please, consider the evidence BEFORE you start trying to prove me wrong.

Originally Posted by www.healthy-soul.com/herbivores.html

What is the Proper Diet for Human Beings?

The optimal diet for human beings should be one that makes us look, feel, and function our best, prevent us from getting sick, and allow us to live long lives with a quick and painless death. All of these symptoms of an optimal diet are nearly nonexistent in the high-meat, high-dairy, highly processed foods of the Western diet.

Not being able to control your bowels, losing your muscle and motor skills, loosing eyesight, and forgetting things are widely assumed as the normal effects of old age. But all of these symptoms are actually poor diet and lack of exercise catching up with you.

If you want to see what it's like to be healthy at 100 years of age watch this video.


Our Anatomy and Physiology is Designed For Plants[1-7]

If you look at the human body, you'll find we share an enormous amount of similar traits with herbivores, and little to none with flesh-eating animals. True omnivores like bears, raccoons, and dogs have an anatomy and physiology similar to carnivores, with a few adaptations to allow them to eat plant foods.

For example, flesh-eating animals (like dogs) lick up water with their tongue, they do not have the muscles required to suck water into their mouths like elephants, horses, and humans. Flesh-eating animals also cool their bodies by panting, while herbivores cool their bodies by sweating. We have little in common with omnivores.


True Omnivores Have No Problems With Cholesterol

If humans really we're designed to eat meat as a regular part of our diet, it wouldn't end up killing us. The digestive system of bears, dogs, and raccoons, have an almost infinite ability to process cholesterol and saturated fats.

The human body is very inefficient at removing cholesterol from the body because for the majority of human evolution (3.750 out of the 4 million years of our species' existence) our diet has consisted almost entirely of raw fruits, vegetables, seeds, nuts, and a tiny amount of animal foods.[3]

The more cholesterol-laden animal foods we eat, the more our blood vessels become clogged and the harder it is for our organs to receive oxygen, affecting stamina and physical endurance. If your blood vessels become sufficiently clogged, you will have a stroke or a heart attack (depending on if the vessels lead to your heart or your brain).


We Have the Mouth of a Plant Eater

Many meat-eaters believe that because we have canine teeth it automatically makes us omnivores. But these "canine teeth" are canine in name only. Our canine teeth are flat, blunted, and shaped like a spade, perfect for biting and peeling soft fruit, just like that of an herbivorous horse or gorilla. Real canine teeth are conically shaped and really long and really sharp.

The teeth of flesh-eating animals interlock like numerous pairs of scissors (like interlocking your fingers), perfect for ripping and tearing raw flesh from bone. The teeth of plant-eating animals sit on top of each other, perfect for grinding and chewing fibrous plant foods.

The jaws of natural meat-eating animals only move up and down, all of the muscles are concentrated on biting with tremendous force and not allowing struggling prey to escape. Instead of moving their jaw side to side, they have huge neck muscles for thrashing their necks to rip apart flesh and guts. The strongest muscle of most meat-eating animals, like dogs, is their neck. This, along with their sharp, fang-like teeth are perfect for holding onto flailing prey that are trying to escape. Their teeth are perfect for ripping apart flesh from bone and swallowing their food whole, no chewing necessary.



1. Human
2. Cow
3. Cat
4. Dog
5. Horse

In relation to how big their head is, meat-eating animals have a very large mouth opening. Compare how far the mouth of this omnivorous bear can open compared to your mouth. Also take note of how a bear, cat, and dog's canine teeth differ from your "canine teeth."



Herbivores have muscles for chewing foods while carnivores have muscles for biting and ripping apart raw flesh. Our jaws move side to side to chew up extremely fibrous plant foods. We have relatively weak necks, but an extremely strong tongue to help move the food around. The so called "muscles of expression" — how humans can make so many different faces — are really the many different muscles of chewing.

Because herbivores chew up their food into a pulp before swallowing it, we have no need for a large, carnivore-like, esophagus. If we do not chew our food enough, we can choke on it (mostly from eating too fast). About 4,000 people in America die every year of choking.[8] The most common food to choke to death on is meat. Do you think animals who are designed to consume meat ever choke from not chewing it enough? No, they swallow it whole!


Our Digestive System is Optimized for Plant Foods

From our lips to our anus, our digestive system has evolved to efficiently digest and assimilate plant foods. Digestion begins in our mouth where a salivary enzyme, called ptyalin, begins to breakdown the complex carbohydrates of plants into simple sugars. Meat does not have any carbohydrates so carnivores have no need of this enzyme.

Because the enzyme to digest protein, proteolytic, is extremely acidic, if it were present in the saliva it would damage the oral cavity. Carnivores have no need for digestive enzymes in their saliva, they bite off huge chunks of meat and swallow them whole.

To properly digest flesh foods, the stomach of carnivorous animals contain huge quantities of hydrochloric acid. This acid is helpful in killing the abundance of bacteria found in decaying flesh foods, as well as bone. It's a good thing flesh is easily digested, due to the lack of fiber, because it decays rapidly (see how long that raw chicken breast stays good outside your refrigerator). For this reason, the intestines of flesh-eaters must be very short to excrete the remnants quickly before they rot. Omnivores, for example, have intestines that are 4-6 times their body length.

Because of the relative difficulty of digesting high fiber plant foods, herbivores have much longer intestines, about 10-12 times their body length. This gives the body plenty of time to breakdown and extract all the essential nutrients from the food. Human intestines are about 10-11 times our body length.

continued....

[HealthySoul]

Originally Posted by healthy-soul.com

Our Bodies Need Plant Foods, Not Animal Foods[5,9]

Many people believe, due to the meat and dairy industries huge marketing budgets, that meat is a necessary part of our diet — in other words, essential. But this simply is not true.

Because the human diet has consisted almost entirely of plant foods, we, as well as other herbivores, have the ability to synthesize nutrients that are only found in flesh. For example, herbivores are able to make Vitamin A from a precursor found in large quantities in plants, beta-carotene. Carnivores have no need to turn beta-carotene into Vitamin A because meat contains large doses of this vitamin. Niacin is another vitamin that is found in large quantities of flesh that carnivores have lost the need to synthesize. Herbivores synthesize Niacin from tryptophan which is found in large quantities of plants.

When humans do not eat enough Vitamin C, found in an abundance in plant foods, we get scurvy. Because there is no Vitamin C in flesh foods, carnivorous animals are able to synthesize it in their body from the various raw materials in their diet. Therefore, Vitamin C is not an essential nutrient for carnivores; they do not need to get it from their diet.


Our Instincts Are for Plants

When you see a dead bird on the side of the road, do you think about stopping for a snack? Does the idea of chasing an animal, catching it, and tearing it limb from limb while you feast on it's warm blood and guts excite you? Would you eat a dog or a cat or a horse? What makes cows and chickens so special? Do you enjoy the taste of raw flesh? If you answered yes to any of these questions, many people would think you deserve to be in an insane asylum.

We humans have no taste buds for flesh foods. If you try to give a carnivore (like a cat), a grape, it won't eat it because it does not have taste buds for carbohydrates. Similarly, we do not have taste buds for amino acids (protein), and need to alter flesh from its natural form by cooking it in sauces, spices, and/or fat to make it palatable. If you don't believe me, I would love to watch you try to eat a portion of boiled chicken or steak without adding anything to it. After noting your displeasure and inability to do so, I will give it to a dog or cat and watch as it eagerly wolfs it down.


Eating Meat Makes You Less of a Man

Here's a quote from a Dr. John McDougall, MD, newsletter:

"Men traditionally have been the hunters who carry back the slain animals to feed the village — you know, “they bring home the bacon.” Scientific research confirms meat is viewed as a superior masculine food.[10] The acts of killing, butchering and eating animals are associated with power, aggression, virility, strength, and passion — attributes desired by most men — and eating meat has long been associated with aggressive behaviors and violent personalities. Men say they need more, and they do eat more meat, especially more red meat, than women. However, based on male anatomy, real men should be vegetarians.

Eating meat diminishes sexual performance and masculinity. The male hormone testosterone that determines sexual development and interest has been found to be 13% higher in vegans (a strict plant diet — no animal products of any kind) than in meat-eaters.[11] Meat-eaters are likely to become impotent because of damage caused to the artery system that supplies their penis with the blood that causes an erection.[12] Erectile dysfunction is more often seen in men with elevated cholesterol levels[13] and high levels of LDL “bad” cholesterol[14] — both conditions related to habitual meat-eating.

The greatest threat to a man’s virility is from the high levels of environmental chemicals concentrated in modern meats of all kinds. These chemicals interfere with the actions of testosterone. Decreased ejaculate volume, low sperm count, shortened sperm life, poor sperm motility, genetic damage, and infertility result from eating meat with estrogen-like environmental chemicals15. These chemicals in the meat, eaten by his mother, influence the development of the male fetus, increasing the risk that the baby boy will be born with a smaller penis and testicles, as well as deformity of the penis (hypospadia) and an undescended testicle (cryptorchism). Estimates are 89% to 99% of the chemical intake into our body is from our food, and most of this is from foods high on the food chain — meat, poultry, fish, and dairy products."[16,17]


The More Meat You Eat the Greater Your Risk of Disease

Through immense scientific research, like the China Study, it has been made abundantly clear that the more animal-based foods we eat, the greater are risk for just about every kind of disease and illness in modern society. Dr. McDougall has had first-hand experience with curing many of his clients "incurable" diseases just by switching them to a whole foods vegetarian diet, with minimal or no dairy.

Meat takes the place of fruits and vegetables, which contain large amounts of antioxidants which help keep us healthy. Because we have to cook meat, it is devoid of all of it's life-preserving enzymes that are just as important, if not more, in the preservation of health.


What About B12?

Many meat-eaters throw the B12 argument as a last ditch effort on why we should eat meat. First of all, many people, regardless of whether or not they eat meat, are deficient in B12.

B12 exists in large quantities in organic top soil. Chemically grown food destroys the top soil and the B12 with it. As a result, livestock are fed foods fortified in B12 to make up for the large amounts of commercially grown foods.

B12 can only be synthesized by bacteria, and throughout your digestive system you have these B12 producing bacteria. But is this enough?

If you pull an organic carrot out of the ground and don't wash it too thoroughly, you are almost guaranteed to get a large quantity of B12. But because modern society has become so anal about washing our fruits and vegetables, these natural sources of B12 have nearly vanished.

Because of the B12 producing bacteria inside of us, it is very rare for healthy vegans to become B12 deficient (just because you don't eat meat doesn't mean you're eating healthy!). Our bodies can store B12 for long periods of time, but some doctors recommend taking a B12 supplement if you have been vegetarian for awhile. Click here to find out more about B12



1. Meat in the Human Diet, John A. McDougall, M.D. The McDougall Newsletter, July 2003.
2. The Comparative Anatomy of Eating, Milton R. Mills, M.D., EarthSave.ca, accessed Jan. 2009.
3. Wood B. Human evolution: We are what we ate. Nature 1999;400:219 - 220.
4. Milton K. Back to basics: why foods of wild primates have relevance for modern human health. Nutrition. 2000 Jul-Aug;16(7-8):480-3.
5. Milton K. A hypothesis to explain the role of meat-eating in human evolution. Evol Anthropol 1999;8:11-21.
6. W. Collens, “Phylogenetic Aspects of the Cause of Human Atherosclerotic Disease,” Circulation (suppl II) 31-32 (1965): II-7.
7. Carpenter KJ. Protein requirements of adults from an evolutionary perspective. Am J Clin Nutr. 1992 May;55(5):913-7
8. H. Heimlich, “A Life-Saving Maneuver to Prevent Food-Choking,” JAMA 234 (1975): 398-401.
9. Milton K. Hunter-gatherer diets-a different perspective. Am J Clin Nutr. 2000 Mar;71(3):665-7.
10. Roos G. Men, masculinity and food: interviews with Finnish carpenters and engineers. Appetite. 2001 Aug;37(1):47-56.
11. Coffey D. Similarities of prostate and breast cancer: Evolution, diet, and estrogens.Urology 57(4 Suppl 1):31-8, 2001.
Allen NE. Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men. Br J Cancer. 2000 Jul;83(1):95-7.
12. Feldman HA. Erectile dysfunction and coronary risk factors: prospective results from the Massachusetts male aging study. Prev Med. 2000 Apr;30(4):328-38.
13. Bodie J. Laboratory evaluations of erectile dysfunction: an evidence based approach. J Urol. 2003 Jun;169(6):2262-4.
14. Walczak MK Prevalence of cardiovascular risk factors in erectile dysfunction.J Gend Specif Med. 2002 Nov-Dec;5(6):19-24.
15. Rozati R . Role of environmental estrogens in the deterioration of male factor fertility. Fertil Steril. 2002 Dec;78(6):1187-94.
16. Duarte-Davidson R. Polychlorinated biphenyls (PCBs) in the UK population: estimated intake, exposure and body burden. Sci Total Environ. 1994 Jul 11;151(2):131-52.
17. Liem AK. Exposure of populations to dioxins and related compounds. Food Addit Contam. 2000 Apr;17(4):241-59.

[Dharma]

Thank God I'm not human!

[Beuford]

That's a good article much more detailed than the one I wrote a while back. You made a few mistakes at the start with loosing instead of losing and diary instead of dairy. There's also another argument where you could use the other living great apes diets to relate to humans and then use the similarity in digestive systems to support this. Not all great apes are completely herbivorous - but they all have largely plant based diets with little or no animal food. I've come to the conclusion that humans as herbivores is great, but a small amount of animal foods may need to be eaten in some cases in the wild. I still call humans herbivores.

[HealthySoul]

Beuford, thank you for letting me know about those errors, I've edited it in the thread and on my site. Yes, we can survive off of meat for a while, but this does not mean it is good for us.

The great ape argument is a good one as well, but I decided not to add it. :P

[SmartAlx]

Finally someone on this website I agree with.

Thanks OP.

[stanmrak]

Quote:

The human body is very inefficient at removing cholesterol from the body...

The more cholesterol-laden animal foods we eat, the more our blood vessels become clogged.

I won't quibble about your other arguments, but these two are rubbish.

Your body does not need to remove cholesterol. It needs cholesterol, and high cholesterol levels are not harmful in and of themselves. Cholesterol performs many essential functions in the body and your liver produces much more than you could ever possibly eat.

High cholesterol levels do not clog your arteries. There is NO correlation between high cholesterol levels and heart disease. NONE. This myth is the result of 40 years or so of drug company propaganda designed to sell statin drugs. It's just not true!

Clogged arteries are caused by oxidation of cholesterol from free radical attacks — not how much cholesterol there is in your blood.

What Causes Heart Disease? The Cholesterol Myth Debunked

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Finally someone on this website I agree with.

****THUD****

[Mike75]

I think humans living in places where farming was possible should have stopped eating meat long ago. In fact, in most parts of India people still have mostly vegetarian diet. I was so surprised to know that

[SnerpGoodWord]

I will say that c'n'paste does not impress me. Link and comment is better.

That said, the human body build is governed first and foremost by our use of tools and the opposable thumb. We don't have the fighting claws and teeth of classic carnivores because we developed the spear and rendered them irrelevant. Similarly, we don't have big shearing/ripping teeth because a knife is much more effective at dismembering a corpse.

By the same token, we are not "classic" herbivores. We don't have stomachs capable of digesting cellulose because we found better food and don't need it. We don't have the tooth size or jaw muscles either for the same reason. We don't have the massive skeletal musculatures of classic herbivores, or their running/climbing legs, or defensive hooves and horns, because spears and teamwork are better predator defense than any of the above.

So saying that we're not built to be carnivores ignores the fact that we're not built to be herbivores either. We're something relatively unique - an omnivore that's replaced most of physical capabilities of either type with tools. And our history shows that as far back as we can find human remains and caves, there is evidence of hunting. It's been with us as long as we've been "us".

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Beuford

That's a good article much more detailed than the one I wrote a while back. You made a few mistakes at the start with loosing instead of losing and diary instead of dairy. There's also another argument where you could use the other living great apes diets to relate to humans and then use the similarity in digestive systems to support this. Not all great apes are completely herbivorous - but they all have largely plant based diets with little or no animal food. I've come to the conclusion that humans as herbivores is great, but a small amount of animal foods may need to be eaten in some cases in the wild. I still call humans herbivores.

One fact to be aware of: many great apes will substitute insects for plant matter if the option arises, sometimes up to 90% of their diet. In other words, they're near-carnivores (or more precisely, insectivores) by choice, but herbivores because of availability.

That's not to say an mostly-insect diet is healthy for them, but it is what they prefer.

[Mounds]

Well, I was going to talk about our non-cellulose digesting stomach but Snerp beat me to the punch.
Consider the appendix though. It's much enlarged in true herbivores, to aid in digestion. In humans, it has evolved to get smaller and smaller, to the point where it gets plugged up. If we were true herbivores, why would it evolution try to oust it, basically putting us in danger in the process?
Sorry if I don't agree, I'm just part of the humans-are-evolved apes faction.

-Tim

[HealthySoul]

Originally Posted by stanmrak

Quote:

The human body is very inefficient at removing cholesterol from the body...

The more cholesterol-laden animal foods we eat, the more our blood vessels become clogged.

I won't quibble about your other arguments, but these two are rubbish.

Your body does not need to remove cholesterol. It needs cholesterol, and high cholesterol levels are not harmful in and of themselves. Cholesterol performs many essential functions in the body and your liver produces much more than you could ever possibly eat.

High cholesterol levels do not clog your arteries. There is NO correlation between high cholesterol levels and heart disease. NONE. This myth is the result of 40 years or so of drug company propaganda designed to sell statin drugs. It's just not true!

Clogged arteries are caused by oxidation of cholesterol from free radical attacks — not how much cholesterol there is in your blood.

What Causes Heart Disease? The Cholesterol Myth Debunked

Okay, thanks for pointing this out. But how many people that have heart attacks never eat meat? I have never heard of a vegan who has gotten a heart attack.

Fruits and vegetables are full of antioxidants that prevent oxidation, right? So while cholesterol might not directly effect the clogging of arteries, foods that are high in cholesterol and also low in antioxidants. So the more meat in your diet, the less antioxidants you will consume, and the more free-radicals there will be in your body.

And the human body IS very inefficient from removing cholesterol from the body, because our liver makes all we need. In other words, we have no need to eat cholesterol foods. So we should concentrate on eating foods that will prevent the oxidation of cholesterol, namely fruits and vegetables.

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

That said, the human body build is governed first and foremost by our use of tools and the opposable thumb. We don't have the fighting claws and teeth of classic carnivores because we developed the spear and rendered them irrelevant. Similarly, we don't have big shearing/ripping teeth because a knife is much more effective at dismembering a corpse.

If you were out in the wild, how would you make a knife, or a spear for that matter? Would it be easier for your opposable thumbs to somehow make a spear from raw materials and use that to kill a deer or a rabbit, or would it be easier to climb a tree and pick some fruit?

What happened first, humans creating weapons to kill other animals, or humans picking up a rock and smashing it on the shells of nuts to break them open and eat them? Do you really think we learned to make a knife before we would climb a tree and pick the fruit? Our fingers and opposable thumbs are perfect for picking and peeling fruit.

If you are out in the wild, you are an easy prey for lions and tigers and bears, oh my! The spear was made as a form of defense, not attack.

You argument seems to suggest that in the early stages of evolution we ate mostly plant foods. Then, after we developed tools like the knife we could cut the guts out of an animal more efficient than with our blunt teeth.

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

By the same token, we are not "classic" herbivores. We don't have stomachs capable of digesting cellulose because we found better food and don't need it. We don't have the tooth size or jaw muscles either for the same reason. We don't have the massive skeletal musculatures of classic herbivores, or their running/climbing legs, or defensive hooves and horns, because spears and teamwork are better predator defense than any of the above.

You're right, we don't have stomach capable of digesting cellulose because we found better food and don't need it. IT'S CALLED FRUIT. I would assume that if you were to have a choice between eating fruit, lettuce, and raw flesh, that you would choose the fruit.

What other animal, has an easier time eating fruit? Monkeys and humans have the perfect biological makeup to pick, eat, and digest fruit.

How come we don't have taste buds for amino acids? How come cats don't have taste buds for carbohydrates? Because we have both evolved eating different foods. Humans have mostly ate fruit and sweet vegetables (bell pepper, carrots), and cats have eaten mostly meat.

If we truly were omnivores we would enjoy eating meat raw. Why would we have to alter it from its natural form for it to taste good? I would love to see you eat a raw steak or chicken breast. Please.

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

So saying that we're not built to be carnivores ignores the fact that we're not built to be herbivores either. We're something relatively unique - an omnivore that's replaced most of physical capabilities of either type with tools. And our history shows that as far back as we can find human remains and caves, there is evidence of hunting. It's been with us as long as we've been "us".

Do you believe humans invented fire to cook meat before we climbed trees and picked fruit? How are we NOT built like herbivores? How different is our body to the gorillas and chimps? They have almost the exact same physical make up, and eat an almost strictly vegan diet. Monkeys use their opposable thumbs to climb tress and pick and peel fruit.

Please tell me how are body is not built like an herbivore? Your only argument is our stomach not being able to digest cellulose. But just like our monkey relatives, we have evolved mostly eating fruits, sweet vegetables, nuts, and seeds and don't NEED to digest cellulose.

Once we started migrating out of the tropics of Africa, there was not much fruit for us to eat. So we had to find new sources of food. The farther north humans migrate, the more meat they eat. Look at the eskimos, they follow an almost strictly carnivorous diet. They also have the shortest lifespan of all indigenous people.

People who live to be the longest, over 100 years of age and still functioning great, are people who follow a mostly plant based diet (as you can see by the video I posted).

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

One fact to be aware of: many great apes will substitute insects for plant matter if the option arises, sometimes up to 90% of their diet. In other words, they're near-carnivores (or more precisely, insectivores) by choice, but herbivores because of availability.

That's not to say an mostly-insect diet is healthy for them, but it is what they prefer.

Where did you hear this? From what I have read, great apes are strictly vegetarian, they do not eat ANY animals including insects. Other apes, like chimps, eat AT MOST 5% of their diet from termites. I have never heard of an ape eating so many insects.

And just because an animal chooses to eat a certain food, does not mean it is the ideal diet for that creature. Just look at the millions of people who choose to eat McDonalds every day.

What is there in meat that WE NEED? Why can we synthesize all of the vitamins that only exist in meat from plant foods (like other herbivores)?

Why do we have taste buds for carbohydrates and not for amino acids, like other herbivores?

Originally Posted by Tim

Well, I was going to talk about our non-cellulose digesting stomach but Snerp beat me to the punch.
Consider the appendix though. It's much enlarged in true herbivores, to aid in digestion. In humans, it has evolved to get smaller and smaller, to the point where it gets plugged up. If we were true herbivores, why would it evolution try to oust it, basically putting us in danger in the process?
Sorry if I don't agree, I'm just part of the humans-are-evolved apes faction.

Our body hasn't evolved to digest cellulose because our diet has consisted of eating mostly fruits, like the great apes. And just like our appendix is shrinking due to having no true function in our body, the same is happening with apes; apes that have the body of an herbivore.

[Mounds]

Ok, I'm going to have to disagree on the point that humans are frugivores (fruit-eaters). From a biological standpoint, it really doesn't stand to reason. If you look at primates that specifically eat fruit, they share certain features. Relatively light bodies and strong limbs. They're built to climb in trees and pick fruit.
If we look at ground dwelling apes (chimps, gorillas), gorillas eat mostly leaves. Chimps are definitely omnivorous. If they can catch an animal (even other primates), they'll eat it.
It is possible that an earlier species of human, prior to Homo erectus, was a fruit eater. But Homo erectus showed up about 2 million years ago, so things may have changed since then.
Eating meat is not essential for humans though. It is a choice that can be made.

-Tim

[Nameless One]

There are plenty of videos of chimps eating chimps, chimps eating baboons and monkeys, chimps eating termites, baboons eating gazelles. Some chimps have elongated sharp canines. Baboons have elongated sharp canines. Yes they love fruit, but that's not all they love. You'll also see that they will sometimes eat leaves while chewing on some meat. Gotta get that fiber you know?

[SnerpGoodWord]

If you were out in the wild, how would you make a knife, or a spear for that matter?

Did you really just ask this? Seriously? A knife, at least in prehistoric human sense, is a flint or obsidian (or other glass-like volcanic rock) piece with one side chipped to a knife edge. A spear is a sharpened stick. The process for making either one should be more or less self explanatory.

I get the feeling either you're not trying very hard here, or you're talking more out of dogma than thought or research. Either way I'm done.

[Nameless One]

Don't give up now, just when our herbivore man is getting desperate. Keep up the good fight! GO GET EM TIGER RA RA RA

First he says herbivore, then he says frugivore. What will he say next?

[SnerpGoodWord]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

Don't give up now, just when our herbivore man is getting desperate. Keep up the good fight! GO GET EM TIGER RA RA RA

First he says herbivore, then he says frugivore. What will he say next?

Frugivore (fruit eater) is a legitimate term, but not very relevant to the discussion since the apes in the human line of descent and our closest living relatives aren't frugivores but rather omnivores. Anyone wanting to follow the literature on this subject would be well advised to start with

Hamilton III WJ, Busse CD (1978) "Primate carnivory and its significance to human diets." Bioscience, vol. 28, pp. 761-766.

It's a good compilation of the research on all the great apes.

[HealthySoul]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

First he says herbivore, then he says frugivore. What will he say next?

Next I'll say I'm a sun gazer.

Originally Posted by SnerpGoodWord

Did you really just ask this? Seriously? A knife, at least in prehistoric human sense, is a flint or obsidian (or other glass-like volcanic rock) piece with one side chipped to a knife edge. A spear is a sharpened stick. The process for making either one should be more or less self explanatory.

I get the feeling either you're not trying very hard here, or you're talking more out of dogma than thought or research. Either way I'm done.

Hmm, I have problems with my stainless steel knives staying sharp. Wouldn't you rather just pick some fruit or eat some nuts than kill an animal that's really fast? Plants seem like a much easier target.

Originally Posted by Nameless One

There are plenty of videos of chimps eating chimps, chimps eating baboons and monkeys, chimps eating termites, baboons eating gazelles. Some chimps have elongated sharp canines. Baboons have elongated sharp canines. Yes they love fruit, but that's not all they love. You'll also see that they will sometimes eat leaves while chewing on some meat. Gotta get that fiber you know?

Yeah and chimps killing baby chimps and raping female chimps. What's your point? I say our body is best built to digest plant foods, not animal foods.

When you look up frugivore in wikipedia, the first thing you see is a picture of an orangutan. I don't know about you, but I think it would be much easier to get most of my calories from picking fruit from a tree then it would be to kill an animal and eat it raw.


You guys do a pretty good job attacking my arguments but you do not bring up many valid points to suggest that our body is designed to eat plant foods. Yes, we CAN eat meat, but is it GOOD for us?

Please, answer me a few questions...

How is our body setup to eat meat? I'm not talking about our ability to kill animals and eat them, I'm talking about our digestive system.

What do we gain from eating meat? Is it necessary for optimal functioning?

Why don't we have TASTE BUDS for protein?? You would think if we were designed to eat meat, we would at least have the canivorous/omnivorous taste buds to enjoy this food without altering it.

Why do people live longer when they eat a mostly plant-based diet?

Why is erectile disfunction related to high levels of cholesterol? (or is this just not true?)

[Beuford]

Now let's not say that using tools makes us omnivores. Elephants use tools, they are herbivores. In fact, the elephant's brain is 5kg. Chimpanzees use tools too. They are 95-99% herbivorous. Orangutans eat 60-90% of their diet fruit, and almost all of the rest as plant. Gorillas are 100% herbivores. They all have the similar digestive system and capabilities of a human simply because we are all just great apes. It's fair to say apes are omnivores because they can eat occasional small animals or some insects but to be more accurate you'd have to say 2% omnivore 98% herbivore.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

There are plenty of videos of chimps eating chimps, chimps eating baboons and monkeys, chimps eating termites, baboons eating gazelles. Some chimps have elongated sharp canines. Baboons have elongated sharp canines. Yes they love fruit, but that's not all they love. You'll also see that they will sometimes eat leaves while chewing on some meat. Gotta get that fiber you know?

Sometimes, humans eat humans, therefore, humans are cannibals.

[Nameless One]

Alright man, keep up the crusade, holy crusader. I give up and you win. Although this would be a good way to pass time on the fast, it is too hard. See? I indulged in going into needless details, and the result was simple. Arguments poking holes in arguments. Keep poking man. Keep poking. Just don't poke me in the butt!

Don't drop the soap in a food type argument thread. Don't drop the soap!!!!!!!!!!

[diozen]

There are no universal diets that is perfect for everyone. Each of our bodies are unique and our dietary needs differ depending on our physiology and genes.

[Beuford]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

Alright man, keep up the crusade, holy crusader. I give up and you win. Although this would be a good way to pass time on the fast, it is too hard. See? I indulged in going into needless details, and the result was simple. Arguments poking holes in arguments. Keep poking man. Keep poking. Just don't poke me in the butt!

Don't drop the soap in a food type argument thread. Don't drop the soap!!!!!!!!!!

I think it's called a discussion. I'm not going to stop you from eating meat.

Originally Posted by diozen

There are no universal diets that is perfect for everyone. Each of our bodies are unique and our dietary needs differ depending on our physiology and genes.

It is true we can have different needs, a body builder would need more protein and an athlete would need more carbohydrates. However, we all have the same digestive system capable of the same things. There is a level of versatility involved, that's why we can vary our diet, but that does not mean some humans are born carnivores and others herbivores.

[Nameless One]

I'm just being a grouch. I will be shifting my strategy slightly. ^_^

[Beuford]

Well as long as you are having fun.

[Nameless One]

That's the prob I'm not really having fun, these emotional swings are just a bunch of bs man

[diozen]

Originally Posted by Beuford

I think it's called a discussion. I'm not going to stop you from eating meat.



It is true we can have different needs, a body builder would need more protein and an athlete would need more carbohydrates. However, we all have the same digestive system capable of the same things. There is a level of versatility involved, that's why we can vary our diet, but that does not mean some humans are born carnivores and others herbivores.

I doubt large numbers of humans were ever complete carnivores for long periods of time, but there are groups of people whose diets consisted mostly of meat, such as the various eskimo groups. I can't say if their genes or their level of physical activity or evolutionary genetic factors played a role in their ability to thrive on such a diet. It's quite possible that people who are descendants of the nearly carnivorous eskimos inherited genes that allow them to thrive on a carnivorous diet. The same could apply to descendants of other groups of humans who thrived on largely vegetarian diets or omnivorous diets for long stretches of time. I don't speak with much great authority on the subject though but am just drawing some inferences here. For me personally, i eat a varied diet consisting of mostly fruits and veggies with some meat and listen to my body and how it responds to certain foods. There are also various ancient eastern dietary philosophies that suggest certain diets for certain body types. I am not too knowledgeable about those diets though. I just want to point out that there are no universal diets and some people thrive on a more vegetarian diet, others on a more carnivorous diets, and some on omnivorous diet depending on their genes and level of physical exertion.

[Nameless One]

Diozen you are someone who says what I say, but with more poise

[Mikahcho]

There are no universal diets that is perfect for everyone. Each of our bodies are unique and our dietary needs differ depending on our physiology and genes.

It is true we can have different needs, a body builder would need more protein and an athlete would need more carbohydrates. However, we all have the same digestive system capable of the same things. There is a level of versatility involved, that's why we can vary our diet, but that does not mean some humans are born carnivores and others herbivores.

^Agreed^

And these activities- body building, athletics, etc, are all human made activities. Yeah, I'm sure that being the stronger species, via body building, would help in quite a few situations in the wild, or that being an athlete would make you more healthy for natural situations, as well as the olympic games, but we probably didn't need these qualities.

I never thought about humans being herbivores originally..... and reading these posts are making me realize that we probably were and maybe still should be.

That doesn't mean I'm becoming a vegitarian, like the OP said, things like B12 are removed from fruits and veg in the process of delivering them to our plates.

Nice discussion *Thumbs Up*