Humans Are Natural Herbivores

[Fullcrum]

The herbivores that survive in winter survive on grass, which, as I pointed out in my last post, humans cannot get very much nutriment out of without, say, juicing it. Note the lack of tropical primates in cold climates. As you will see in the following link, the only primate that lives far north besides the human is the Japanese Macaque. The ones that live in the warmer parts of Japan eat mostly fruit, while the ones in the coldest regions have to build up fat reserves in summer. Primate Factsheets: Japanese macaque (Macaca fuscata) Taxonomy, Morphology, & Ecology

Humans don't build fat reserves that last through winter. We definitely did not derive enough nutrition from leaves. We ate meat to live.

The digestive system of other great apes are quite unlike our own. May I recall my previous argument about the reduced human cecum?

Fruit eaters do not live in cold climates. Humans would have been unable to survive in any cold climate on Earth without meat. There were certainly not enough tubers around to subsist on.

Beuford, I am curious what cold-climate local foods YOU subsist on, without any imported food.

Humans are naturally tropical creatures. Yes. But our ancient home were not the relatively fruit-rich forests, but the fruit-poor savanna.

I will also note that Neanderthals subsisted on a diet of at least 70% meat, based on their feces. Scientists think they may have gone extinct because the big game they had relied on, and the forests where they had hunted them, became scarcer. Cro-magnons (modern humans) ate less meat. Our diet was more varied, but it included both plants and animals.

This is interesting:

Originally Posted by Beuford

Oh and most of the evidence comes from some old skeletons they found in a cave, and a couple of tools they thought were obviously used to kill animals and crack open bones, ignoring that tools have many uses. I'm not saying ancient humans ate no meat because they would have sometimes, but it seems to me people put some old bones and jaws and rocks together and say "Wow, must have been a carnivore".

But that's just what I've seen. If you've seen something else let me know.

I am not sure what tools you sarcastically refer to as "obviously used to kill animals", because there are many tools that, without a doubt, were used to kill them. Perhaps you are thinking only of the stone tools that could have been used for processing plant materials as well as meat. But then there are things designed only for killing. Spears dating about 400,000 years ago, long before the modern human, have been found. Check it out here: World's Oldest Spears. Note that this link also indicates that

Thousands of pieces of horse, elephant, and deer bone were also found at Schöningen. The bones showed cut marks from stone flints found with grooved wooden tools that probably held the flints. If Thieme can prove the flints were hafted in the wooden tools, they will be the oldest known composite tools in the world.

Yes, all the evidence you'll ever need that, before the mere existence of modern humans (which was about 200,000 years ago), humans were HUNTING.

I don't think you harpoon fruit with spears. They were also not adapted to fishing. Instead, they were adapted to hunting. We have found ancient spear-throwers with early modern humans, called atlatls, that could project lightweight spears vast distances and kill prey without being seen.

Do you understand how long it takes to make these tools, and the skills required to make them well? These people had the brains to eat meat, but even the ones in Africa do not subsist on fruit. Our ancestors evolved in a drying Africa. It was far lusher 8 million years ago. We had to eat other things than fruit to survive, and our bodies adapted accordingly. The human is extraordinarily adaptable.

As for the Neolithic argument, it is true that our brains shrunk and there were more signs of malnutrition and disease when humans started farming. It also reduced the human life span. Jared Diamond, author of the famous Guns, Germs and Steel, makes the argument that the reason farming is so successful is because it allows higher population densities, allowing you to overpower the more scattered hunter-gatherers. 100 starved soldiers will defeat one healthy man.

And as I end my arguments, consider for a moment that not a SINGLE ape today subsists entirely on fruit, without eating animals. Chimps actively hunt for meat. Orangutans have been observed copying human fishing behavior (with a pole, that is), often trying for HOURS on end (losing precious fruit eating time) to catch fish. Why? It is a concentrated source of nutrients, many of which are found in low quantities in fruit.

That said, if you supplement properly, you can thrive on a high fruit diet. It just can't be fruits alone, or even fruits and greens alone.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

And as I end my arguments, consider for a moment that not a SINGLE ape today subsists entirely on fruit, without eating animals. Chimps actively hunt for meat. Orangutans have been observed copying human fishing behavior (with a pole, that is), often trying for HOURS on end (losing precious fruit eating time) to catch fish. Why? It is a concentrated source of nutrients, many of which are found in low quantities in fruit.

What an excellent post! I didn't know about the orangutans trying to hunt. It's kind of sad.

That said, if you supplement properly, you can thrive on a high fruit diet. It just can't be fruits alone, or even fruits and greens alone.

I agree. Most people get into fruitless (har har) arguments over which diet has the most protein, when they ought to concentrate on fat, specifically the fat-soluble nutrients like vitamins A, K2 & D3.

[Excellent Lodestar]

Great post Fulcrum,
I hate typing and trying to "sell" the obvious--you killed two birds there;thanks.

Glad you brought up Jared Diamond.

[russianrocket]

Or they are bored?

[liamona]

Originally Posted by russianrocket

Or they are bored?

Who, the orangutans that Fullcrum mentioned? I seriously doubt it. Because of their anatomy, they must constantly eat like the gorillas we've discussed in a few posts. Taking any time from eating probably makes them extremely hungry.

[Nameless One]

Turns out there's a reason for human's weird bipedal nature. We are the world's most efficient runner, built for marathons. Quadripedal runners aren't nearly as energy efficient. Thanks to sweating, we can run dozens of miles without overheating. Here's the fun part. Any fit distance runner can eventually run down a deer, antelope, etc until the animal drops of exhaustion and doesn't even need to be speared or shot. It can take some hours though, not for the feint of heart or leg. The problem is these animals are clever and will mix in with a herd, hide, etc. and make it confusing as to which one you were originally chasing after. But that's what the human mind is for, tracking the animal footprints, and even getting into the same headspace as the animal to determine where the creature would most likely go next.

YouTube - Absolutely Fricking Amazing "Persistence" Hunt!

A good distance runner can run down and surpass a horse eventually, and it is done all the time in a special race involving horses and humans.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

YouTube - Absolutely Fricking Amazing "Persistence" Hunt!

A good distance runner can run down and surpass a horse eventually, and it is done all the time in a special race involving horses and humans.

That is an amazing video! It shows what we humans can accomplish when we're in optimal health. Sadly, the average modern person would be left in the dust.

[joelr]

Originally Posted by Nameless One

Turns out there's a reason for human's weird bipedal nature. We are the world's most efficient runner, built for marathons. Quadripedal runners aren't nearly as energy efficient. Thanks to sweating, we can run dozens of miles without overheating. Here's the fun part. Any fit distance runner can eventually run down a deer, antelope, etc until the animal drops of exhaustion and doesn't even need to be speared or shot. It can take some hours though, not for the feint of heart or leg. The problem is these animals are clever and will mix in with a herd, hide, etc. and make it confusing as to which one you were originally chasing after. But that's what the human mind is for, tracking the animal footprints, and even getting into the same headspace as the animal to determine where the creature would most likely go next.

YouTube - Absolutely Fricking Amazing "Persistence" Hunt!

A good distance runner can run down and surpass a horse eventually, and it is done all the time in a special race involving horses and humans.

Interesting. This tradition probably goes back to early man or even to the hominid right before us.
All of the human hunters from Africa to the American Indians incorporate a strong belief system, a mythology that allows for the spirit of the fallen animal to be reborn. This is how they dealt with the moral implications of killing.

[scotthegeek]

I did not take the time to read through the hole thread but I always wonder if vegatarians like bunny deer and cow have gale badder. we need bile to digest fat and most fruit and vegatables have all most no fat in them at all. I know that avocato and nut and seed do though.

[liamona]

It's by one of the same co-authors that wrote the other paper I posted. This one is called, "Brains and guts in human evolution: The Expensive Tissue Hypothesis*" and it's much easier to read than the original paper that I posted that's on the scribd.com site.

Here's some notable quotes:

"[...]the increase in brain size in humans is balanced by an equivalent reduction in the size of the gastro-intestinal tract. In other words, the increased energetic demands of a relatively large brain are balanced by the reduced energy demands of a relatively small gastro-intestinal tract. This relationship also seems to be true in non-human primates.

The size of the gastro-intestinal tract is dependent on both body size and the quality of the diet. It is argued that humans (and other primates) could not have developed a relatively large brain without also adopting a high quality diet that would have permitted a reduction in the relative size of the gastro-intestinal tract. Dietary change is therefore viewed as a prime releaser in brain evolution. It is argued that a high quality diet is necessary for the evolution of a relatively large brain."

"The gut is the only one of the expensive tissues that can vary in size sufficiently to offset the metabolic cost of the encephalized brain. This is because gut size is determined not only by overall body size but also by diet (Chivers and Haldik, 1980, 1984; Martin et al., 1985; MacLarnon et al,. 1986a,b; Martin, 1990). Gut size is associated with both the bulk and digestibility of food (Milton, 1986, 1993; Milton and Demment, 1988). Food of low digestibility requires relatively large guts with elaborated fermenting chambers (stomach and/or small intestine) while food of high digestibility (such as sugary fruits, protein and oil rich seeds and animal material) requires relatively smaller guts characterised by simple stomachs and proportionately long small intestines."

[RagsToRiches]

Eyes on the front of the head, teeth made for chewing meat, natural inclinations to hunt and kill things (yes I have that and I have never done it in my life or been surrounded by hunters, so is it conditioning?)...

It'd be strange if we were herbivores and had all these features...

There's also evidence to suggest that our intelligence developed in order to allow complex communication which was what gave us the edge over other animals in hunting.

[liamona]

Originally Posted by RagsToRiches

Eyes on the front of the head, teeth made for chewing meat, natural inclinations to hunt and kill things (yes I have that and I have never done it in my life or been surrounded by hunters, so is it conditioning?)...

How about when you were little, like three or four? I have yet to come across a young boy who isn't fascinated with weapons in general and guns in particular.

Even if they come from gun-hating households or are being raised by gentle Waldorf-y mammas.

It doesn't matter if their parents ban toy weapons or watching t.v. or playing video games (oooh the violence!).

The boys simply make their hands into the shape of a gun, and then gleefully "shoot" at their parents and their friends.