Are pre-fast diets and post-fast diets pointless for water-only fasts?

[andrew112]

Are pre-fast diets and post-fast diets pointless for water-only fasts? The reason I am asking this is because I have read that juice fasting does not allow the body to feed off of its own reserves, and rather it feeds off of the juice instead. Does this actually complicate things? Is juice fasting or diets that are not "complete" (meaning it includes all the healthy fatty acids, all the amino acids, complex carbohydrates, and all of the micronutrients) actually "bad" for you?

If one is going to go on a water-only fast, would the best transition be to go from a healthy "complete" diet (see above) to a water-only fast?

[MightySunTzu]

Hi Andrew,

Good questions these.

Originally Posted by andrew112

Are pre-fast diets and post-fast diets pointless for water-only fasts?

In a word, "no". Pre-fast diets are quite useful in "pre-cleansing" so that the detox symptoms upon transitioning into water-only will be minimized. Careful dietary choices post-fast are even more essential as we need to allow our bodies and most especially our digestive systems to gently and gradually re-awaken from their slumber.

Originally Posted by andrew112

The reason I am asking this is because I have read that juice fasting does not allow the body to feed off of its own reserves, and rather it feeds off of the juice instead.

This is indeed true. In a water-only fast, the body makes many internal transitions and reaches a point where it is using its nutritional reserves for its sustenance. Any intake including just vitamins will interfere with the body making this transition. In an excessively low calorie diet (but above zero), this is particularly impactful in the area of tearing into protein sources to meet certain carb needs instead of the preferred course of stepping into ketosis (fat as fuel). In such a low calorie situation, we would burn a lot of muscle tissue to sustain ourselves as the body will never transition into ketosis. It is perhaps ironic, but in a zero calorie diet, we do not starve since we are allowed to enter into ketosis, but in an extremely low calorie diet, little by little we do starve.

Originally Posted by andrew112

Is juice fasting or diets that are not "complete" (meaning it includes all the healthy fatty acids, all the amino acids, complex carbohydrates, and all of the micronutrients) actually "bad" for you?

I believe an extremely low calorie juice fast (or any extremely low calorie diet) would be bad for us, would starve us in a way that no calories at all wouldn't (for the reason you and i mentioned above), but that a moderate to high calorie juice fast (feast) is nutritionally excellent.

Originally Posted by andrew112

If one is going to go on a water-only fast, would the best transition be to go from a healthy "complete" diet (see above) to a water-only fast?

I believe a moderate to high calorie juice fast makes for the best possible transition into a water-only fast and especially out of it.

[ginkgo]

You do not need to transition into a water fast. But the better your diet before the fast the less cleansing symptoms. If you break the long fast with the wrong foods it can kill you.

If you feed the wrong foods to a new born baby, you can kill it. So after a long fast your digestive system is like that of a baby.

As far as juice fasting and water fasting, it is like asking what is better to eat-- an apple or an orange. Each has different benefits. See this site that has quotes from experts on the water fast, the juice fast and the lemonade diet. Each one has fans that says it is the best similar to religions. Fasting and Lemonade Diet

[andrew112]

Let's say I went on a low-calorie vegetable-only fast for a few days right before a water-only fast. I would enter into starvation mode because my body would only be feeding off of the vegetables, but as soon as the body stops feeding off of the vegetables, would it then go to my body's other reserves instead? Or would there not be as much reserves left because during the vegetable-fast my body would have been feeding off of the vegetables and my muscles as well? Thanks for the replies.

[andrew112]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

Hi Andrew,

Good questions these.




In a word, "no". Pre-fast diets are quite useful in "pre-cleansing" so that the detox symptoms upon transitioning into water-only will be minimized. Careful dietary choices post-fast are even more essential as we need to allow our bodies and most especially our digestive systems to gently and gradually re-awaken from their slumber.




This is indeed true. In a water-only fast, the body makes many internal transitions and reaches a point where it is using its nutritional reserves for its sustenance. Any intake including just vitamins will interfere with the body making this transition. In an excessively low calorie diet (but above zero), this is particularly impactful in the area of tearing into protein sources to meet certain carb needs instead of the preferred course of stepping into ketosis (fat as fuel). In such a low calorie situation, we would burn a lot of muscle tissue to sustain ourselves as the body will never transition into ketosis. It is perhaps ironic, but in a zero calorie diet, we do not starve since we are allowed to enter into ketosis, but in an extremely low calorie diet, little by little we do starve.



I believe an extremely low calorie juice fast (or any extremely low calorie diet) would be bad for us, would starve us in a way that no calories at all wouldn't (for the reason you and i mentioned above), but that a moderate to high calorie juice fast (feast) is nutritionally excellent.



I believe a moderate to high calorie juice fast makes for the best possible transition into a water-only fast and especially out of it.

So would a high-calorie vegetable-only fast (and only consuming dark green vegetables) be "nutritionally excellent" as well? I would have to consume a lot of vegetables each day though in order to fulfill calorie needs.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by andrew112

Let's say I went on a low-calorie vegetable-only fast for a few days right before a water-only fast. I would enter into starvation mode because my body would only be feeding off of the vegetables, but as soon as the body stops feeding off of the vegetables, would it then go to my body's other reserves instead? Or would there not be as much reserves left because during the vegetable-fast my body would have been feeding off of the vegetables and my muscles as well? Thanks for the replies.

Hi Andrew,

If you transitioned from a "too low calorie" vegetable-only diet where your body was taking more muscle than anybody would prefer into a water-only fast, unless you had been doing the vegetables-only for a long term, the vast majority of individuals would generally have plenty of reserves left for the water-only fast to work the way we want it to. Nevertheless, as i stated before i would strongly recommend against this course.

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by andrew112

So would a high-calorie vegetable-only fast (and only consuming dark green vegetables) be "nutritionally excellent" as well? I would have to consume a lot of vegetables each day though in order to fulfill calorie needs.

Hey Andrew,

A high calorie dark green vegetable-only fast would indeed be nutritionally excellent as a temporary measure if you were able to get enough of it, but you might need 20 pounds per day. If it was me i would alternate fruit meals with (mostly raw) vegetable meals throughout the day leading into your water-only fast.

[adaira]

Originally Posted by MightySunTzu

In an excessively low calorie diet (but above zero), this is particularly impactful in the area of tearing into protein sources to meet certain carb needs instead of the preferred course of stepping into ketosis (fat as fuel).

Elaborate, please. Cite sources or sites for further elaborations. Thank you.

[ginkgo]

Originally Posted by adaira

Elaborate, please. Cite sources or sites for further elaborations. Thank you.

The above is not dealing with specific numbers but is vague. Now if you get $2,000 monthly income and other expenses are $1,200, would you have enough to pay the $800 monthly rent? Yes! Now say a person has an "excessively low" income. Can he pay his rent? Please cite sources in your answer.

If you fast too long it becomes starvation and you die. Slowly starving yourself with too little food is a slower starvation but you will also die. An excessively low calorie diet is not a juice fast or a water fast. An anorexic person has an excessively low calorie diet, so it is what anorexic people do.

[andrew112]

Originally Posted by ginkgo

The above is not dealing with specific numbers but is vague. Now if you get $2,000 monthly income and other expenses are $1,200, would you have enough to pay the $800 monthly rent? Yes! Now say a person has an "excessively low" income. Can he pay his rent? Please cite sources in your answer.

If you fast too long it becomes starvation and you die. Slowly starving yourself with too little food is a slower starvation but you will also die. An excessively low calorie diet is not a juice fast or a water fast. An anorexic person has an excessively low calorie diet, so it is what anorexic people do.

Not only anorexic people have low calorie diets. I sometimes go on low calorie diets; does that make me anorexic? Going on low calorie diets is good for the health because being hungry is good for the health. I remember reading somewhere that the lighter you are, the less prone you are to getting cancer. It does not mean that if you are light and stuff your face with all sorts of crap that you will not get cancer though.

[MightySunTzu]

[QUOTE=andrew112;465545] "Going on low calorie diets is good for the health because being hungry is good for the health." [QUOTE]

I say where low calorie diets are concerned, there is an optimal level of calories for fat loss while protecting muscle tissue... and there is such a thing as going "too low" in calories. Moderately low calories like say 1400 can be a very good way to go, but extremely low calories, like say 500 will generally do more harm than good. It is pretty well established that extremely low calorie diets will force our bodies to tear into muscle.

A notable and noteworthy exception is the water-only fast where yes we burn a fairly substantial percentage from protein sources in the very short transitional period between carbs for sustinence and our own stored fat for sustinence (ketosis)... but upon ketosis we very much conserve our muscle tissue as our body feeds primarily on its own stored fat while it cleanses and repairs itself. I'd better go ahead and source this to keep adaira happy :

The Physiological Changes of Fasting

[QUOTE=...;465] Many of the most dramatic changes that occur in the body during fasting take place on the first three days of the fast. These occur as the body switches from one fuel source to another. Normally, the primary form of energy the body uses for energy is glucose, a type of sugar. Most of this is extracted or converted from the food we eat. Throughout the day, the liver stores excess sugar in a special form called glycogen that it can call on as energy levels fall between meals. There is enough of this sugar source for 8-12 hours of energy and usually, it is completely exhausted within the first 24 hours of fasting. (However, once the body shifts over to ketosis or fat as fuel, this new fuel is used to also restore the body's glycogen reserves.) Once the liver's stores of glycogen are gone, the body begins to shift over to what is called ketosis or ketone production - the use of fatty acids as fuel instead of glucose. This shift generally begins on the second day of fasting and completed by the third. In this interim period there is no glucose available and energy from fat conversion is insufficient but the body still needs fuel. So it accesses glucose from two sources. It first converts glycerol, available in the body's fat stores, to glucose but this is still insufficient. So it makes the rest that it needs from catabolizing, or breaking down, the amino acids in muscle tissue, using them in the liver for gluconeogenesis, or the making of glucose. Between 60 and 84 grams of protein are used on this second day, 2-3 ounces of muscle tissue. By the third day ketone production is sufficient to provide nearly all the energy the body needs and the body's protein begins to be strongly conserved. The body still needs a tiny amount of glucose for some functions, however, so a very small amount of protein, 18-24 grams, is still catabolized to supply it - from 1/2 to 1 ounce of muscle tissue per day. Over a 30 day water fast a person generally loses a maximum of 1-2 pounds of muscle mass. This conservation of the body's protein is an evolutionary development that exists to protect muscle tissue and vital organs from damage during periods of insufficient food availability.

... As part of protein conservation, the body also begins seeking out all non-body-protein sources of fuel: nonessential cellular masses such as fibroid tumors and degenerative tissues, bacteria, viruses, or any other compounds in the body that can be used for fuel. This is part of the reason that fasting produces the kind of health effects it does. Also, during this period of heightened ketosis the body is in a similar state as the one that occurs during sleep - a rest and detoxification cycle. It begins to focus on the removal of toxins from the body and the healing and regeneration of damaged tissues and organs. [QUOTE]

from: The Health Benefits of Water Fasting by Stephen Harrod Buhner

[adaira]

Excellent info.........TY

gingko says that juice fast not included in excessively low diet...however, if juice intake totals 1-500 calories, would this not apply? I don't want to waste muscle......lol........

[MightySunTzu]

Originally Posted by adaira

Excellent info.........TY

gingko says that juice fast not included in excessively low diet...however, if juice intake totals 1-500 calories, would this not apply? I don't want to waste muscle......lol........

Hi Adaira,

A juice fast/feast can indeed be conducted with ample calories. I think that's what Ginkgo means, but I will let him speak for himself . Maintaining muscle is quite an essential to me as well. If it's me, i'll be doing 1400+ ...usually 2000-3000 ..., or Zero with only the rarest of exceptions (such as perhaps the first day or two easing out of a substantial fast)... nothing in between.

If the body is counting on outside sources to meet its needs, 500 calories is not enough to avoid substantial muscle loss. In a water-only fast, once we are in ketosis we will pull our 1400 calories from our own fat stores.